Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Intellectual discussions
Forum Discription: Discuss political and philosophical theories, religious beliefs and other academic subjects
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28211
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 10:50
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2010 at 03:49
I don't know why in every country that I visit, the only people that we should fear them are Muslims?!! However we are ourselves Muslims but it is highly recommended to not trust our fellow religious people and be always careful in contact with them! Sometimes I fear myself!  ------------- 
|
Replies:
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 18-Mar-2010 at 15:50
This is a tough topic because whenever I criticize radical/Orthodox Islam I am called names like; Islamophobic, bigot, racist, fear monger, etc. The biggest target of radical Islam is their fellow Muslims. The violence between the Sunni and Shiite is very sad. There is less difference theologically between these two groups than Protestant and Roman Catholic Christianity. Of course I have met many Muslims who are not violent but how can we tell who is who? I never assume but by their fruit you will know them, this applies to everyone. There are some Muslim groups taking a stand against the radicals: http://www.aifdemocracy.org/ - http://www.aifdemocracy.org/ http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/ - http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/ Cyrus - here is one you might find interesting: http://www.iricrimes.org/ - http://www.iricrimes.org/ Can anyone add others in the USA/Canada and in other nations. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2010 at 09:49
What countries have you been to? I have only been to one Muslim country =Turkiye. I had no problems there and some of the Turks I met I am still in contact with. They were moderate in their beliefs and some were not religious at all. Some of the Turkish Muslims reminded of Roman Catholics I have known who go to Mass once a year and still claim they are Roman Catholic. The only real Catholic country I have been to is Mexico, France is very secular. It is a shame you cannot trust those who share a common faith and have to fear them. I know in Algeria over 100,000 moderate Muslims were murdered by the Muslims who follow the traditions of Muhammad- the Suni. I have read most of the Qur'an and some Hadith versus but not the Suni or traditions of Muhammad. I should try and find the Algerian story- now we have a new fanatic religion- the Jedhi Knights - for real  ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2010 at 13:18
|
As I meantioned in http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27575&PID=624995#624995 - this thread , I have just visited some countries around Iran, of course India can be added to this list too, except this one and Armenia, all other ones are considered as Muslim countries, but in all of them almost a large number of non-Muslims also live, I visited some Arab Christian cities in Syria and Lebanon, and the people of these cities were really polite and trustable, I remember that our tour guide said that you can go out at nights in these cities and don't worry about anything, but in Delhi, our tour guide didn't even allow us to leave the bus for going to the Bazaar in the the Muslim quarter of the old city, she said I can never guarantee that you come back satisfied from there! In another Muslim country, I remember someone stole my money in the bazaar of Nakhchivan and the interesting thing was that other people in the bazaar helped the thief to escape from my hand! But in Armenia, we went ourselves with no tour guide, and that was the safest trip that I have gone on so far. -------------
|
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2010 at 15:32
|
Cyrus, I would suggest that you consider a trip to Mississippi? Real people, and real religious "love thy neighbor" feelings! No matter what the media has said, it is here in the "heart of the South" that people find satisfaction and security!
Actually it is kind of weird? PS, Mississippi, like a lot of the Old South, has a very large population of families from Lebanon! Also, one of the oldest Jewish Temples in America was located in Jackson, MS! However, where I live, the majority of people would be considered as Roman Catholic, which is 180 degrees different from the rest of the state, which is almost 90% Protestant or Baptist! Note, that I do not consider "Baptists" as Protestants! Note that the only Muslim nation I have ever visited was also Turkey! And, our female tour guide in Istanbul, was overly anti-Muslim! While I made the women in my care, cover themselves and dress approprately while going into Muslim holy places, our native guide openly desired to insult those at prayer! Too much secularism, spoils the broth! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 19-Mar-2010 at 23:32
|
I think the religious freedom in the USA is well known in the world but I'm talking about Islamic violence everywhere in the world even in the USA, the reason can be that Islam doesn't teach us the tolerance! "Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the true religion (Islam) from among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jaziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued." (Quran: Al Taubah: 9 - 29) But if you fight: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land Is: 'Execution, or Crucifixion, or the Cutting and Removing Off of hands and feet from OPPOSITE sides, or exile from the land.' That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter." (Quran: Al-Ma'idah: 5 - 33) -------------
|
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2010 at 11:10
Yes, I see it happening more and more as we bring in more Muslim immigrants and refugees. They are not all bad but some do not want to assimilate into our nation. Some say they want to replace our Constitution/Bill of Rights with Sharia law but not without a fight. Some in our government seemed to be siding with them or are not facing the reality of the danger we are in. I know many, on the old forum, did not like Robert Spencer but he has been a Paul Revere in America. He is warning us about what will happen if we, as Americans, do not take a stand. In his latest book he talks about how the Islamacist could take over without firing a shot.  ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 20-Mar-2010 at 15:07
Modern Christianity has also advocated violence, but indirectly. President Bush's decision to invade Iraq was in part encouraged by evangelical protestant pastors who saw the invasion as part of their end times theology (Book of Revelations). Others viewed the invasion as an extension of the purported role of ancient and modern Israel in end times theology.
As the invasion went badly, many of these same pastors quietly withdrew their invasion "Fatwas". In the end, Evangelical Christianity in the USA and Shia Islam in Iran experienced a similar phenomena. National defense policy was being directed by clergy using holy books as guidiance.
The only difference was that in Iran, the clergy were / are in direct control. In the USA, the clergy only had an indirect role of influence to an individual president.
|
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2010 at 18:52
| Its weird that in Delhi people were against muslims, they should know that most of the historics structures in the city, clothes, food etcc in north india are influences heavly by muslims |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 21-Mar-2010 at 20:38
Fatwas do not exist in Christianity and Christians have no more influence politically than anyone else, even as flawed as it is. Remember this is a Representative Government so what is wrong with any group being active politically. Comparing Muslim clergy to Christian Pastors is like comparing apples to onions, no comparison.
I have not been to many Muslim countries but I found the Muslims, on the most part, in Turkiye very friendly. The only person that told me they did not like me because I was American was a young Communist. I did not worry in Turkiye but I have known several Christians who left the Middle East because of persecution by Muslims. Cyrus don't worry you don't have to worry that some crazy Christians will stone you in the USA. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 04:35
|
Christians were also a dangerous people especially in the Dark Ages, but I think Christianity in the modern times is just a religion and one of the elements in a society, but in an Islamic society, Islam is the core element and other elements depend on it, for this reason we see Muslims can't even celebrate their ancient pre-Islamic festivals, if Islam doesn't confirm them! Maybe if Muslims believed in a generally accepted morality, the situation could be so much better than this and they wouldn't be called terrorists. -------------
|
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 09:38
Evangelical Christians have been adamant that U.S. power be used to protect Israel for religous reasons. Saddam Hussein was a threat to Israel (however distant) and therefore warfare with him was justified. Since the evangelical pastors who had the presdient's ear were also viewing the war as destiny or "the hand of God", all cautionary advise associated with war decisions went out the window. Any chance that some concluded that the "hand of God" was calling them to act?
By number, Evangelical Christians have far more influence here than say Buddhists, Muslims or ethnic Palestinians. No, there is nothing wrong with influence in a represenative government. It is also foolish to deny that such an influence exists.
I suppose the facts that both are human, adherents to an Abrahmic theology of active divine revelation and intervention in the world and that both groups have human failings are unimportant.
Yikes, first you state that Protestant Pastors are inherently different than Muslims and would never have encouraged war (either directly or indirectly). Then you state that Bush has distanced himself from some and that 5% do hold his beliefs. Which is it?
Perhaps you did not have your objective eyes open.
- I have seen many on T.V. Especially Hagge from San Antonio.
- I have also watched evangelical "docu dramas" religously justifying Israeli settlements in the west bank, the use of U.S. power to protect Israel.
- Several Evangelical churches that I did attend (as a guest) had extensive displays linking the theological interests of evangelical Christians with the political goals of Israel.
-The Christian bookstores that I visit have extensive selections of sensationalized prophecy interpertation and how it relates to modern middle eastern politics, Islam etc.
Also, notice that I said "Fatwas" in quotes. I am aware that Fatwas per se do not exist in Christianity. The concept (religous authorities giving sanction to a government policy), however, does exist. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 10:46
This is a typical tactic to side track the issue by playing the moral equivalence game of who is more evil. It simply avoids the question posed by Cyrus- Why Muslims are a dangerous people? I do not want to get sidetracked because we all know that there are fanatics in all religious and political movements. I do look at it objectivel and have had more exposure to Christianity that you have had. I was raised Lutheran but we attended the Greek Orthodox Church for a fews years. I attended a Baptist elementary school and later got sucked into the Evangelical movement, after being an agnostic. I tend to believe one man’s way to Heaven is another man’s way to Hell, so today I think all religions have some truth. I do agree about the political support of Israel which I side with but also believe in a Palestinean homeland but that is another issue. I don’t want to side track beasue then I will bring up the fate of the Palestinean Christians- another thread. By number, Evangelical Christians have far more influence here than say Buddhists, Muslims or ethnic Palestinians. No, there is nothing wrong with influence in a represenative government. It is also foolish to deny that such an influence exists. You only have to look at the roots of our nation to understand this, but I am glad that other faiths are more prominent in America. I don’t deny it but I face the reality that most Americans are at least cultural Christians. Why do you only focus on the Evangelicals because there are a lot of Roman Catholics and Mormons as well. It is true the Evangelicals are the greatest supporters of Israel but don’t leave out the other Christian groups. Yikes, first you state that Protestant Pastors are inherently different than Muslims and would never have encouraged war (either directly or indirectly). Then you state that Bush has distanced himself from some and that 5% do hold his beliefs. Which is it? I am sure there are some who are nuts but most do not and I have sat under more sermons than you ever have so please. Most Pastors speak in spiritual terms and prophecy or God's will. I may not agree with them, but you cannot compare this to current events with Islam today. The actions of Bush have turned off many Christians today and I have heard many state they he was only using Christians for the vote. Even the great Michael Savage has stated this and has called Bush a liar and phony and that he used the Christians for political reasons. You cannot lump all Christian Pastor in one group because their views can vary so much. They don’t encourage war but see this conflict as the predestined will of God. Good vs. evil but we all know that there are always exceptions. The question is being avoided though by focusing elsewhere. We could really sidetrack and talk about other fanatic groups such as: Communist, Hindus, Buddhist, PETA, extreme environmental groups, abortion bombers,nationalist etc Why can’t we answer his question - Why Muslims are a dangerous people. From now on I will only address his question but your are free to comment. I will try and bring up the truly moderate Muslims who are an asset to humanity. Here is an example of Muslims against Muslims http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/03/22/malaysia-women039s-group-sued-over-039islam039-name.html - http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/2010/03/22/malaysia-women039s-group-sued-over-039islam039-name.html American Muslim groups I side with: http://www.aifdemocracy.org/ - http://www.aifdemocracy.org/ http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/ - http://muslimsagainstsharia.blogspot.com/ Here is a greater concern for me today and maybe after i read thoroughly it I can start it in current events: Trans Texas Corridor racing ahead http://www.augustreview.com/news_commentary/north_american_union/trans_texas_corridor_racing_ahead_20100322157/ - http://www.augustreview.com/news_commentary/north_american_union/trans_texas_corridor_racing_ahead_20100322157/ ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 11:49
Because evangelicals teach that God is actively working through human events, that Biblical prophecy is being fullfilled and that humans can learn what this prophecy is and then chose what role they will play in it.
This makes evangelicals very different regarding Middle Eastern politics than Orthodox, Catholic and mainstream protestants. Mormons also share the evangelical approach to a degree, but their effective numbers are far smaller (about 3 million)
Then factor in that may mainstream protestant denominations (Lutheran, Presbyterian) have demographically collapsed, that active Catholic membership has "taken a hit", and that Mormon numbers have been exaggerated.
When the Pastors concluded that the looming war was "the will of God", (1.) what did they conclude about somebody who attempts to obstruct the will of God? (2.) Should believers, even a president, submit themselves to "God's will", even if means war?
I bet the answers were:
1.) "At best such actipns are futile. At worst, these people are opposed to the will of God and against Christ."
2.) "All humans must follow the will of God, even if that means war."
I agree with you, religous influence towards violence is far more pervasive in Islam today. There is nothing, however, intrinsic about Chrsitianity (sister religion to Islam) that prevents Pastors or Priests from directly or indirectly promoting violence. I dont doubt that you have sat through more sermons than me.
|
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2010 at 13:31
|
agree with you, religous influence towards violence is far more pervasive in Islam today. There is nothing, however, intrinsic about Chrsitianity (sister religion to Islam) that prevents Pastors or Priests from directly or indirectly promoting violence. I dont doubt that you have sat through more sermons than me. That can be true and I have heard of Cults in the USA being violent or contolling over their members. Overall, I never saw this in most churches. I just thought they were too narrow minded and the idea of other good: Muslims, Hindus, Mormons, and other people of faith going to Hell forever was wrong. I cannot see God being so cruel but that is only my opinion. I believe Mormonism would have possibly turned violent if they had remained isolated. The conquest of Mexican territories changed this. I almost became one when I was younger but my Greek Orthodox mother would not allow their missionaries to come into our house. I did study some of their older theology which they deny now but we need to get back to the question in hand. Why Muslims are a dangerous people?! I would rather this say, why are some Muslims a dangerous people? The question lumps them all together but I realize this is not what Cyrus meant. Cyrus please tell us more about your experiences so we can better understand. I really did not have any issues overseas but Turkiye was more liberal- 2006. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2010 at 15:17
|
Like I said I will post anything positive about Muslims in the USA because not all Muslims are evil, there are some groups I respect.
Religious tolerance starts at home By M. Zuhdi Jasser http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/89300107.html - http://www.jsonline.com/news/opinion/89300107.html ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: tzar
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 11:07
|
If during the 11 century internet existed the muslims would ask -Why Catholics are dangerous people?
Differently times, differently people, differently ideals, but one think is sure - the stupidity doesn't go in the forest, but people. I'm sure if the Pope today call a Crusade to Jerusalem there would be thousand of voluntaries. Then you would ask yourself - are we nuts or they? ------------- Everybody listen only this which understands. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 14:59
|
If every major religion in the world was run by a group who only thought of themselves as the "sacred religion" then the world might already be destroyed?
Religion as a political animal is a very wicked animal! Political thought, that consideres its precepts, etc., as the only way to a "perfect state" are no different! Political thought, today, is much like the "religious" thought of the past! The State, and the Ideals of the State, have only replaced a God, with an anti-God! Just my two cents worth, and today, it is not worth much! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 16:51
|
So, Moslems want to build a Mosque nearby to gound-zero in NYC! It is reportedly to be built for "peace!" Sounds great, does it not?
And, to show my opinion, I would let the following speak for me! http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/06/pat-condell-on-ground-zero-mosque-is-it-possible-to-be-astonished-but-not-surprised.html But, I tend to think that my opion might well be a minority opinion on this site? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2010 at 17:56
|
We have a constitution, here is the first amendment of that constitution: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution#cite_note-0 - Deal with it, this is the United States of America, not the Confederate States of America. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 16:31
|
You might well notice "minor Simba" that the above words describe the term "Congress!", which specifically identifies that group of elected representavies that reside in the National Congress of the USA!
Meanwhile, local semi-independent States, my well pass almost anything that they please! Remember, that voters were ultimately expected to "vote with their feet!" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 17:57
|
So you disagree with freedom of religion? I'm not surprised one bit hearing such a thing from a person like you. Unfortunately for you, and like I have mentioned before, this isnt the Confederate States of America, deal with it. Fact is, Americans believe in freedom of speech. As a non-American, I understand why this confuses you. This is why I know the Tea Party is a sham. They yell and scream about the Constitution, yet they are against everything in it. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 18:10
|
It is most obvious to me, as a lover of America, speaking to a hater of America, that you and your minions, are the ones who whould discard the Constitution of the USA, like a used rubber!
Cum back at me, if you can?  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 18:11
|
How does your logic makes sense to you? You say you love America and you love the Constitution, yet you just said above that you are against freedom of religion...that goes directly against the Constitution. This is double think. doublethink is the act of simultaneously accepting as correct two mutually contradictory beliefs. Do you or do you not support freedom of religion? I do not think you are an American (as in a supporter of the United States). I think you have led yourself to believe that the South actually won the Civil War. You, are living in a delusional world where you are a proud American citizen of the CSA. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 18:31
|
Hail to our first, last and best president!
Jefferson Davis, from Kentucky! Oh! That just happens to be the same state that Abraham Lincoln came from! Oh well? Does the above make me "delusional?" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 18:34
|
You failed to answer the question: Do you or do you not believe in freedom of religion? ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 19:31
|
As it is applied in the Constitution of the U.S.A,, YES!
As it applies to the "seperate" states it is up to them and their interpretation of Constitutional Rights! As I said earlier, our founders figured out that citizens could "vote with their feet!" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 26-Jul-2010 at 19:57
|
Ok, so you do not believe in freedom of speech. Therefore, you do not believe in the 1st Amendment of the United States. Tea Partier for sure DOUBLE THINK. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: InTheFade
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2010 at 05:38
|
Just as dangerous as everyone else. Being Muslim does not make them dangerous but the pathological, psychopaths and ignorant that exist in every group.
------------- Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former. Albert Einstein |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2010 at 17:09
It is talking about the freedom of worship and religious expression. A city zoning commission can deny any permit for a church or Mosque to be constructed, if they so choose. They can build their Mosque but not on ground zero and if they are really interested in an interfaith outreach, like they claim, then why can't the relocate it. Just like Agia Sophia, the Cathedral in Cordoba and many Hindu Temples they want to construct their victory mosque on sacred ground. It is a slap in the face of those who perished on 9/11 and 70% of Americans oppose its contraction of ground zero. Funny, how the already existing Greek Church, which was destroyed 9/11, cannot rebuilt. TGS you have admitted to disliking religion, so why do you care so much. If this was a church by some Christian fundamental group would you feel the same way, probably not. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2010 at 17:37
|
Cyrus earlier wrote;
"I think the religious freedom in the USA is well known in the world but I'm talking about Islamic violence everywhere in the world even in the USA, the reason can be that Islam doesn't teach us the tolerance! "Fight those who believe not in Allah, nor hold the forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and his messenger, nor acknowledge the true religion (Islam) from among the People of the Book (Jews and Christians), until they pay the Jaziyah with willing submission. And feel themselves subdued." (Quran: Al Taubah: 9 - 29) But if you fight: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land Is: 'Execution, or Crucifixion, or the Cutting and Removing Off of hands and feet from OPPOSITE sides, or exile from the land.' That is their disgrace in this world and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter." (Quran: Al-Ma'idah: 5 - 33)" If any of you wish, you should look at the reliefs found in the temple at Medinet Habu, in Egypt,which supposedly depicts the war fought by some one whom is today identified with Rameses III, where by the panels of inscription show the Egyptians cutting off the hand(s?), of the conquered People of the Sea and their allies! Does this practice actually predate Islam? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2010 at 19:46
Why don't you answer my question? This is not a First Amendment issue and it would not win in the courts. There is a Christian group that has sued every time some city planning commission has denied the construction of a church and they keep losing the case. I ask again would you care so much if this was some Christian group and what about the rebuilding of the Greek Orthodox Church, which was destroyed 9/11-???? Is the U.S. Constitution a living document to you? Here is a great interview with Walid Shoebat, a former PLO ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2010 at 07:45
Method of counting, people only have one right hand (usually) its that or a penis. ------------- |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2010 at 11:31
What question? Frankly, and generally speaking, if you are a person that wants to deny Muslims the right to build an community center two blocks away from ground zero, than there is something fundamentally wrong with you. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2010 at 19:18
Let's not make this personal and I am not opposed to them building a mosque but not on ground zero. There are over 100 mosques in New York City and surrounding areas. You still did not answer my question about the constitution. And what about the rebuilding of the Greek Orthodox Church, the city will not allow it. Does it seem fair they are rushing the Cordoba Initiative through but they will not allow the reconstruction of an already excising church? I wonder who is paying off who and where is the funding for this mosque coming from. No offense but I gather, in your world, asking such questions could be bigoted. Ground Zero is sacred ground and if the building of the so-called interfaith community and mosque is for the purpose of bringing people together then why can’t they locate elsewhere? Build a mosque fine but not on ground zero. Some Muslims oppose the building of the mosque on ground zero A Patriotic Muslim’s Warning on Ground Zero Mosque http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-patriotic-muslims-warning-on-ground-zero-mosque/ - http://pajamasmedia.com/blog/a-patriotic-muslims-warning-on-ground-zero-mosque/ see more articles on this Muslim site: http://www.aifdemocracy.org/ - http://www.aifdemocracy.org/ ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 23-Aug-2010 at 21:43
|
I just love it when TGS uses the word "fundamentally!", in a sentence!
I can perhaps, care enough to mention it here! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2010 at 12:11
Why? Its their RIGHT and they bought the building. They can do whatever with it they want.
What was the question? With the forum being down I've forgotten.
What the hell does the Orthodox Church have to do with the building of this mosque? I dont know why the city wont allow it, but they are allowing the construction of this community center, that should be the end of it.
Yes, that is very bigoted. Unless you have evidence that they are getting funding from illegal sources, then you have no right to make this claim or even use it as an excuse to deny them their rights.
The mosque is NOT being built on ground zero, STOP saying that. Some Muslims oppose the building of the mosque on ground zero
I dont care who opposes it, fact is, ITS THEIR RIGHT TO BUILD IT WHEREVER THEY WANT as long as they follow the rules and regulations, which they have. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2010 at 15:23
|
Concerning the building of a mosque near "ground zero" in NYC;
TGS wrote; "I dont care who opposes it, fact is, ITS THEIR RIGHT TO BUILD IT WHEREVER THEY WANT as long as they follow the rules and regulations, which they have." And TGS presented a very Libertarian view of the proceedings! But, I wonder if his Libertarian views would hold up under differing circumstances? Such as; Allowing the American Nazi Party to build a Waffen SS, clubhouse and beer garten, next to the Holocaust center?, or the Israeli embassy? Of course we might well consider that the ACLU in Illinois, might well support these acts? (remember Skokie?) But perhaps the above is not a good example, but I am sure I could come up with something similar if pressed! You see, TGS, it is not their "right to do so" that is challenged, it is common sense, and regard for your fellow men/women, etc.! Just why would some group with other than evil of bad intentions, stand so firm on a project that has promoted such outrage? Thus, just like we might consider the Nazi's, then maybe we might consider these people in the same manner? As others in the media have already stated, if it is the desire of this Moslem group to spread love, and understanding between the religions of the world, then they might well avoid the "firestorm" and take the easy, respectful and safe way out? As I said, merely common sense!  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2010 at 12:28
I'm not libertarian, im practical when it comes to civil rights: a) freedom of speech b) freedom of religion c) freedom to get married etc...
It is their right. If they wish to do so, and if they adhered to the rules, regulations, and laws, they have every RIGHT to do that. The reason people have RIGHTS is because there are those who wish to take away their rights, such as yourself. Just because you dont like it doesnt mean they cant do it. They can do whatever they want within the confines of the law. Its called freedom. --------------------- Frankly, this whole mosque issues is related to the wave of racism that has appeared in American conservatism since Obama's election. Couple examples: 2 Arab christian journalists reporting for a christian arab satellite channel, who were there to protest the building of the mosque at one of the anti-mosque rallies, were verbally harassed and physically threatened by the crowd, who thought them to be muslims. The police had to come and rescue them. A black man walking through another rally (this one was more recent) was assumed to be a muslim, was surrounded, verbally and physically threatened. He was also forced to leave the area. He was not a muslim. These crowds are all white, all conservative, and even when other minorities simply come to join them or simply watch, those minorities are often harrassed and ejected from the area. This is racism, pure and simply, it has nothing to do with 9/11 or ground zero. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2010 at 18:19
|
I defy you to show us real examples of the acts you so proudly presented above!
And, I'd bet a dollar to a doughnut, that you whould scream to high heaven if the SS were given the right to build next to the Holocaust Museum? Or if any number of other such actions were taken by any hate group! You cannot really support a Libertarian viewpoint everwhere! If you can, then I salute you! But, you had be ready to duck when your opponents throw s-it at you! The smiley faces are not working so I will merely say; "Wink!" Oh! I forgot, you said that you were not a "Libertarian!" Well, you could have fooled me by your last posts! I am one, and thought I had a fellow "brother" here! "Wink!" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2010 at 18:29
Unlike you, I do not need to lie:
Here is actual video footage of a black man simply walking through the crowd when people start yelling at him and threatening him. They also assume that he is Muslim: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbiS91Ayn6c Notice how the crowd is all white (all conservative tea partiers). RACISTS RACISTS RACISTS.
I would disapprove but I would not scream to high heaven. It is their right to do that if they wished, and I have no right to take away their freedom. Hell, I dont even propose banning the KKK or any neo-Nazi group, they have a right to be the idiots that they are.
I am not, nor have i ever claimed, to be a libertarian. Actually, I believe eaglecap is the only libertarian here (self proclaimed,) so I suggest you ask him these questions. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2010 at 19:04
Actually you did lie! For one, I could undertand little of what was said, other than the "black man" wearing a "white" hat, said that he was a Christian, and some "White" guys, supported him, and tried to explain to some other White guys, all of whom I would suspect are good "Union" workers in NYC! I saw no police interferrence, and watched the man walk un-hindered out of sight! Just what did you think you saw? You need to cut down on your drugs, TGS! You also wrote this above; "Notice how the crowd is all white (all conservative tea partiers). RACISTS RACISTS RACISTS." If, as you have stated hundreds if times about your use of caps, it seems you did "shout" "Racists" a number of times above! You should be well ashamed of your demeanor? BTW, hope to see you and your family in front of the Lincoln Memorial on 082810! Please do not bring any of your "evil" signs however! Love you! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2010 at 22:54
You have failed to answer my questions or my points and all I see is pointless baloney. The Greek Orthodox Church was preexisting yet the New York planning commission has done everything it can to halt its reconstruction. Yet, they are rushing this mosque through, who is paying who? Does this seem right to you? You don't give a rip about the Christian Orthodox but yet you care alot about this triumphant mosque, which is highly symbolic to the Islamacist. They can relocate it and 70% of American are against this mosque on ground zero. My point about posting those Muslim sites was that not all Muslims support it and they know the real intent for this mosque. Are they Islamophobes? Are you a Muslim?- should be no shame in telling us! I really don't care what one's faith is as long as they believe in plurality and all religions are equal. The term Kithman - do you know the definition of this word? Here is a good debate about the Mosque I got from www.jihadwatch.org http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D37mB61mjxU&feature=player_embedded - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D37mB61mjxU&feature=player_embedded TGS doesn't this concern you? State Dept "aware" of Ground Zero Imam Rauf's Islamic supremacist remarks, but doesn't care http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/state-dept-aware-of-ground-zero-imam-raufs-islamic-supremacist-remarks-but-doesnt-care.html - http://www.jihadwatch.org/2010/08/state-dept-aware-of-ground-zero-imam-raufs-islamic-supremacist-remarks-but-doesnt-care.html ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2010 at 13:08
How many times do I have to say this: PLEASE RESTATE YOUR QUESTION SO THAT I MAY ANSWER IT.
First of all, who said I do not care about this orthodox church? If the city is preventing its construction solely for the reason that it is an orthodox church, then YES, ITS WRONG. This is a separate issue and if you have a problem about it, go to the city with it, it has nothing to do with the mosque.
No, they have an agenda. 2% of Muslims are, after all, Republicans.
No, I am not a muslim. I dont believe in religion or god. As per the rest of your anti-Islamic racist propaganda, nothing more will be said. Also, please refer to the post in which Opuslola had a question about the libertarian stance on this issue, you are, after all, a libertarian are you not? --------------------------------- As for the question regarding who is funding this mosque: THE PERSON FUNDING THIS MOSQUE IS THE SAME PERSON WHO OWNS 10% OF FOX NEWS. Interesting huh? I guess Fox News must be getting funds from terrorist organizations too. Lets shut it down! Once again, if you have no evidence to suggest that this mosque is being funded through illegal means, you cannot use that argument, and its disgraceful to use it! Maybe youre a terrorist? I have no evidence to suggest it, but I'm just going to make that claim anyways. Is that fair? ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2010 at 16:43
I have read the First Amendment many times and I agree with it but it funny that you might not even believe in God. It protects the freedom of worship and the right to hold a religious view or no religion at all. It does not protect the right to build a church, synagogue or mosque in a certain zone of a city or town. Churches are denied permits often but in that case I doubt if you care. The fact you ignore the right of the Greek Church to be rebuilt speaks volumes of where you stand. read this: Zead Ramadan of Hamas-linked CAIR defames Spencer, inadvertently reveals where to find the truth about the Islamic supremacist mega-mosque at Ground Zero www.jihadwatch.org another Investigative Project uncovers numerous questionable aspects of Ground Zero mega-mosque imam's organizations financing http://www.investigativeproject.org/2134/the-tangled-web-of-the-gzm-imams-organizations - http://www.investigativeproject.org/2134/the-tangled-web-of-the-gzm-imams-organizations ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 26-Aug-2010 at 17:42
|
TGS, just what is lacking within you that cannot see that "common sense" might well make this Islamic Group, not see that their determination to build on this spot and no other offers the antagonism of Christians and Jews, as well as Hindu's and other religious groups, who lost family members to a radical Islamic sect, see this building as not a "bridge" between these religions, but rather a "Wall!"
And it is not, indeed, a "Wailing Wall!" To many other Americans, it seems to be a "Bragging Wall!" Gotcha? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 05:36
|
TGS is correct they do have the right to do so. As it is the right for any other religion or politcal group or company or organisation to build on that location. However there a city planning councils Im fairly sure also have the power to not alow such things to go ahead if its detrimental to the city etc etc. Are they not the check for common sense, that you laud so much? (common sense is overrated anyway) One might have the right enshrined in law to do something bu not neccessarily the power or ability to carry it out. The British monarchy for example has numeorus rights, dictated by laws and custom, more than one might imagine. Doesnt mean it has the ability to carry out those rights if it should choose to do so. On a side note Opusola in your reductio ad absurdum earlier you mentioned the Nazis. Goodwins Law has been fulfilled, congratulations you have lost the argument. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 06:47
|
Yes DW, you are correct, when I used an absurd assertion, to make a comparison to a somewhat similar current action, it is considered to be a loss!
But, absurd actions are being displayed by those whose intention of building a new mosque created a firestorm of resentment by New Yorkers as well as the majority of other Americans, and the other words of defiance to those who oppose the building created just the place for such a comparison! If indeed those wanting a new mosque in the area, had been willing to modify their position, or consider another piece of property, then most New Yorkers and Americans in general would have probably reacted in a less threatening manner! It was really the "go to hell" attitude of those who support the mosque that ignited the fire! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 12:23
So end of discussion. Also, as a non-believe in god, I still defend peoples rights to worship if they so choose. You could learn a lesson or two from that.
It does protected the right to build a church or synagogue or mosque because the freedom of worship is guaranteed. It is up to the city to decide where such buildings can be built and if they are following the proper procedure. In the case of this community center, the city deemed it ok. SO END OF DISCUSSION.
Again, irrelevant. This is a separate issue, take it up with the city if you have a problem and have your church built.
I'm not reading any of your propaganda. THE CONSTITUTION STANDS, I find it funny how conservatives, who claim to be defenders of the constitution, are the same people who try to undermine it and change it.
News flash, MUSLIMS DIED ON 9/11 TOO. But you dont care about that. The racism that we simply swept under the rug after the Civil Rights Act is reemerging. You are fighting a losing battle, just like in the 1860s, and just like in the 1960's.
What absurd actions? If you have no evidence, dont make the claim.
But they wanted that piece of land. They purchased it legally. They followed all of the rules and regulations. ITS THEIR RIGHT, ITS THEIR PROPERTY, THEY CAN DO WITH IT WHAT THEY WANT. End of discussion. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 13:32
|
Well, I am glad to see you care about the church but I had to bring it up. They can build the mosque but once again not on ground zero. You know there are about 100 mosque in the New York city area. They had the freedom to build them and nobobdy opposed them nor should they.
Islam is a religion and not a race and it is made up of many races so how can opposing the mosque be racists? Especially when there are many Muslims, in the USA, that oppose the mosque. Are they Islamophobic or racist as well? I believe you when you say you are an athiest. Video: He is speaking about the Islamicist and not all Muslims. I do believe some, a minority, have an agenda. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl6PIb8DuZw - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bl6PIb8DuZw Do you believe the US Constitution is a living document that can change with the times and culture or is it set in stone? Can it be reinterpreted? ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 13:53
THEY ARE NOT BUILDING IT ON GROUND ZERO.
Fair enough, does bigot suit your fancy?
Good, because I am one.
YES, I BELIEVE THAT, BUT CONSERVATIVES DONT, it only seems you guys consider it a living document whenever it suits your fancy. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 17:04
so true and we only go in circles. Part of the wreckage fell into that building so many believe it is part of ground zero but the issue is far more complicated than that. we can agree to disagree ! ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 18:03
|
Really eaglecap we just can't agree to disagree with TGS! He is always the one sporting "hate speech", on this site, regularly calling you or me a "racist" or a "bigot!"
In certain circles he would be identified as nothing but a "TROLL!" It is always "his way or the highway!?" He has little or no concern with your opinion or mine or anyother opinion other than his own! Wait, maybe you are right, maybe we should just ignore him and he might "go away?" Nah! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 27-Aug-2010 at 22:00
|
I have heard reports and discussions that lead me to ask certain questions. 1. That it is not actually a mosque but an Islamic community centre of some descritpion. 2. Though in the vicinity of Ground Zero it is not actually adjacent to it directly. (How close is too close to Ground Zero, where's the line of demarcation?) 3. That there existed a mosque/community centre there previously which was done away with in the destruction of 9/11 and which this one is to replace 4. It's run by Sufis (wh we all know are the rockingest of muslims) Any of that correct, or is it misdirection and poor reporting? ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2010 at 13:37
|
Muslims are dangerous for the same reason Jews and Christians are danger. All these people believe they are God's chosen people and can know the will of God by studying their holy books. Without question the title of this thread is inflamatory, and this is what leads to social problems and wars. Does anyone want to argue this point? This is a moral judgment, because to do something that causes a social problem and war, is immoral. Christians are about the most dangerous people in the world, just look at what Germany did and what the KKK did. These are Christian people, and no one has done worse things. I know Christians want say those who claim to be Christians and do these terrible things are not really Christians. Well, hello, the Muslims are saying the same thing. Democracy, when it is understood, is the best hope for the world. It doesn't assume people can know God's will, but does assume they can get information and be reasonable. Democracy also goes with these 3 rules: We respect everyone because we are respectful people. We act with dignity and protect the dignity of others. We act with integrity. "Democracy is a way of life and social organization which above all others is sensitive to the dignity and worth of the individual human personality, affirming the fundamental moral and political equality of all men and recognizing no barriers of race, religion, or circumstance." Congress on Education for Democracy, August 1939 A growing number of US citizens are becoming Muslims, and I strongly suggest we behave like people who understand what democracy is, because if we don't, the consequences can be really, really bad. |
Posted By: balochii
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2010 at 14:13
|
^ This is true, any religion in the world is dangerous when combined with politics. Look at what the radical hindu parties do in India and how they kill muslims and christians.
I think as for islam, the Sufi aspect of islam has always been the peaceful and spritual one. The poltical islam is mostly preached by certian sects like Salafis, Wahabhis, and Deobandis in India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. Taliban in Afghanistan and Pakistan are actually of the Deobanidi school of thought, which was actually founded in India.
Muslims need be more spiritual then political, this way violence within the community will go away.
|
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2010 at 15:38
|
balochii,
I so like what you said. I think one of the biggest problems is believing only people with religion have the correct concept of God and morals. Of course from there they do agree about God and morals, but is there some way to separate their religious notions from politics? Not even in the US have we done this very well. I hate listening to the political debates that throw in religious points of view, as though humans can know God's will and should impose it on others. I think we need a better understanding of democracy and better clarification of what is private and what is public. Paradoxically, we need tolerance of our differences, and some moral agreements. I seriously think Atheism and materialism, and a failure use the ancient understanding of morals, are part of the problem. The less moral we agreement we have, the more religious people think they need to step in a take in control, right? If I had the power, I would order all alcoholic beverages out of every Muslim country that out laws alcohol. We are suppose to respect laws, and pushing our ways on others, in complete disrespect of them, is bad manners. Is it possible to act with concepts of good and bad manners, and avoid politics? |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2010 at 13:18
|
I will try do answer what I have time for and hope this stays respectful.
Muslims are dangerous for the same reason Jews and Christians are danger. All these people believe they are God's chosen people and can know the will of God by studying their holy books. Yes this is true and many faiths do believe they are the true way to salvation and I have no problem with this as long as they respect other religion's right to exist and believe. But there are some Islamic groups who do believe in supremacism and do not get along with other religions. The Coptic Christians today are a good example, once they were the majority. Look at the phlight of Christians in Iraq today and Afganistan. Without question the title of this thread is inflamatory, and this is what leads to social problems and wars. Does anyone want to argue this point? This is a moral judgment, because to do something that causes a social problem and war, is immoral. I agree and it should have read "Why are some Muslims dangerous and if you don't believe this look at current events. I am not sure what you are asking so please clarify it. Check out Walid Shoebat a former PLO terrorist. Christians are about the most dangerous people in the world, just look at what Germany did and what the KKK did. These are Christian people, and no one has done worse things. I know Christians want say those who claim to be Christians and do these terrible things are not really Christians. Well, hello, the Muslims are saying the same thing. You over generalize! What do you mean look at what Germany did? Are you talking about WWII? If so, Hitler was not a Christians and in fact he also killed many, many Christians or any who got in his way. Please don't bring up the occasional abortion bomber which is totally condemned by the vast, vast majority of Christians. I do not deny that people have done evil in the name of Jesus Christ throughout history but there is a difference. Christians who do evil are not following the examples of Jesus Christ but Muslims follow the tradition of Muhammad found in the Hadith and Suna and the ones we call extremist truly follow the example of their Prophet. (see –“The Truth about Muhammad” by Robert Spencer) The Hadith illuminates the Holy Qur'an. You also need to clarify your last statement. What do you mean by saying Muslims are saying the same thing? Not all Muslims, of course interpret their holy books to that extreme. ( see-The American Islamic Forum for Democracy)I spent time in Turkey and found most Muslim there kind and honest. The KKK is terrible and most Christians in the USA condemn them and their beliefs can only be supported by taking the Bible out of context, they are a very hateful evil people. Give me some example of Christian suicide bombers and terrorist acts by mainstream Christianity and not some whacko splinter group who do not represent most Christians. Democracy is good and most of all a representative government or a Republic such as the USA. Walid Shoebat: http://www.shoebat.com/audio/shoebatMTR091610.php - http://www.shoebat.com/audio/shoebatMTR091610.php ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2010 at 19:52
|
Now I see a very important difference. Do the powers that be, have the power to insert "some". in the title of this thread. Then we can proceed to talk about the potentially dangerous Black Muslims in the US, who are dangerous because of intense anger against Whites, because of past racial injustices. Hopefully, having a Black president has disarmed these Muslims, because they most definitely can use the teachings of the Koran and come out violent and brutal, especially if our economy doesn't turn around and they do not see Blacks in high places. Hitler did not commit all acts of cruelty alone. I have a lot to say about how Germany came to the terror of WWII, and it also applies to US today, but this is not the thread for this subject, except to say, Germany was Christian and Hitler did not do everything on his own. As the bible can be used to support stoning people and slavery, I am sure the Koran can be used to justify killing and monopolizing power. This is a major problem coming from a religion with a Zeus like God who has favorites, and tells his favorites to rid the land of every man, woman and child who is not one of them. Please, David worships a war God. A large reason Germans accepted Christianity is the belief that the people who win wars are the ones with the strongest God. War is good for religion and religion is good for war. No one calls on God to win wars more than the Christians in the US, and this is why the "over generalization" of Muslims as dangerous people is dangerously inflamatory, and should not be tolerated. The threat of war is not one sided. Neither Iraq nor Afghanistan attacked us, and we have attacked both these countries, and maintained war in them for several years. The attack on Iraq was so unjustified, and I believe the New Century American Project, makes it very clear that long before 9/11 Bush and Cheney had planned the military domination of the mid east, and were hoping for an excuse to put the plan into action. 9/11 was a religiously motivated attack on the World Trade Center, and the military power that backs it up. But the attack on Iraq was an imperialist war in the planning long before 9/11, and some could say justified 9/11. Bush's rhetoric aroused the Christian right and got him reelected. That is he got religious support for his imperialist war. Is knowledge of the New Century American Project part of this thread? Many years ago, Iran was our friend because they thought we were liberating them from British control, but then it became obvious we did so because of our own Imperialism. Later, we helped Bin Laden when he was fighting the USSR, and once again our intentions become obvious. For the US these wars are imperialism. For the Muslims they are religious and defensive wars. ------------- |
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 09:14
|
I am amazed at these generalizations. It is a historical fact that Christianity was, historically, most genocidal religion. No other religion comes even close. Its last genocidal spasms took place in the former Yugoslavia. And this was in Europe, the center and origin of Western Civilization. In US Christianity provided very good base for all racial problems we all still have. We have hard time containing our Christian religious zealotry that threatens both science and Constitution. I think no religion is inherently evil, but the uneducated, brain-washable followers in the hands of unscrupulous leaders make them evil. The poverty and lack of education provides a fertile ground for all kind of demagogues. I would like to see "some" inserted in this title. I get already a good dose of Muslim bashing from TV.
|
Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 12:19
|
Then Great Simba and I seem have switched positions on this issue in questioning if Persian religion influenced its war activity. He went on the defensive by attacking, and this didn't work so well. I think in general religion is good for war and war is good for religion. There has actually been research that identifies this to be true. When people are stressed they beging exageratering differences and become more religious, regardless of which side they are on.
In the thread about Why people become Muslims, someone has introduced Muslim bashing and destroyed the thread, turning it into discussion of hate speech, and obviously, intentionally destroying the purpose of the thread to increase information about the spiritual and moral reasons for being attracted to Islam. I think we have a huge misunderstanding of what freedom of speech needs to be. A science forum attracts people with a sincere interest in science, but they do not allow trash talk. I guess this is because people interested in science tend to more professional people. They love questions but don't tolerate trash talk like the history forums do.
Our history books do not stress that the Romanized Franks spread Christianity with the sword and created the Holy Roman Empire when the Center of Rome was too weak to hold control. Genghis Khan told his people to never settled down and never choose one religion over the other, because the Muslims and Christians were constantly fighting each other. In general our history books give us a sanitized and Christian controlled account of history. I was blown away when I began communicating with Muslims and learned Israel is the middle of Palestine, breaking Palestine up into many reservations located on the worst land and controls transportation between these reservations. Not so different from the Indo-Euro conquest of the Americas. If Muslims feel like they are on the defensive and loosing ground, may be there is some justication for this?
|
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 13:35
|
I agree with both Cavalry4ever and Athena, very enlightened posts!
------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 28-Oct-2010 at 17:31
|
I also get a good dose of America bashing most every where on this site! Especially from people who call themselves Americans!
I do not consider these acts as anywhere "enlightened!" Only hateful!, and not "grateful!" As I have said in other places here, Americans can also vote with their feet! That is, if they don't like the politics of the area in which they live, they can move, with their feet if necessary! If some American, and especially one which has actually taken the pledge of citizenship, does find out that he or she is not actually happy with America, they too can vote with their feet and emigrate to some other nation whereby they might well find happiness! As a great and somewhat famous late comedian once said about those people who were living in a desert, with no food or water, he YELLED, "MOVE!" That is find someplace with food and water, like minded friends, and be happy! I don't think that he meant 20 or so virgins? So, to those of you who continually bash America because you don't like it, MOVE! I will come out the the airport or sea-port and wave "a fond fare-well" to you! (once said by a famous American ambassador to the United Nations to the Soviets) And like the Japanese I will wave until you are out of sight! It is the gracious thing to do in Japan! So, please be "gracious" to America, if you can? This is not a perfect nation, but it is the nation that you or your parents chose for you to live! Other options always exist! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2010 at 12:53
|
As long as we can keep our religious zealots and other misguided people from destroying it, it is a fine country. I like government and idea of Constitution protecting minorities from tyranny of majorities. Love science and don't think a scientific theory is an opinion. I also like an idea of Secular Republic and would like to protect it against religious fanatics. I also have no problem with sane Christians, just with those that are perverting Christianity. When I see on TV mob orally abusing Muslims or the Muslim construction sites being vandalized (Tennessee) this makes me mad. I believe that American Muslims have exactly the same rights as any other Americans and can build their churches anywhere any other churches can be built. I also like to be critical of this country and its dark past and believe this is needed to move it forward and keep it great. I agree with most of thinking people that this is not a perfect Republic and needs more work. As we could see at the "Rally to Restore Sanity" there are many Americans that think the same. That was the biggest rally on the National Mall this year (215,000 people) Do you, Opusiola, have problem with this?
|
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2010 at 14:31
|
Dear Cav for ever!, just show me a photograph of the crowd take from the same viewpoint as the Beck rally, and we shall be able to compare "penis length?"
Until then, all you and I have are the views of others! Sometimes the angle or depth of field interfers!
Besides, the rally you mention, also included a free concert! Certainly an Englishman turned Moslem, and a great writer and singer, is or could be a draw for some? Maybe the DC clean up units could give us all a comparison of the trash pick up, and the time devoted to it, for both rallys? So, in conclusion, from the words of one of my most favorite songs; "Ride on the Peace Train!" I just loved "Tea for the Tillerman!" But thanks for the thought! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2010 at 14:41
|
And Athena (Carol) wrote above;
"I was blown away when I began communicating with Muslims and learned Israel is the middle of Palestine, breaking Palestine up into many reservations located on the worst land and controls transportation between these reservations. Not so different from the Indo-Euro conquest of the Americas. If Muslims feel like they are on the defensive and loosing ground, may be there is some justication for this?" And I, Athena, was "blown away" when I read your words above! And you are in your sixties? You surely missed a lot in your 20's, 30's, 40's and 50's! Athena also wrote; "...someone has introduced Muslim bashing and destroyed the thread, turning it into discussion of hate speech, and obviously, intentionally destroying the purpose of the thread to increase information about the spiritual and moral reasons for being attracted to Islam." Hey! The name of this thread is? "Why Muslims are a dangerous people?!" Does not the very title suggest something? But, it seems you are quickly learning! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2010 at 16:17
|
Opusiola - you don't need the same vantage point or magic, there is such thing as geometry.  |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2010 at 17:19
|
Becks rally: 87,000 people, The rally to restore sanity: 215,000+ Opuslola, you are in the minority it appears  ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: Moustafa Pasha
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 02:03
|
The Good and Bad Muslims The good muslims are those who follow the principles of the Quran and lead a normal life respecting the laws and customs of their country. The bad muslims are those who falsely use religion for political reasons, using terror to achieve their objective to seize power.This group of people include the Muslem Brotherhood,the taliban,Hamas,and many other terrorist groups across the world. The first group constitute 99% of muslims in the world while the second group represent 1% or less in the world. The is my simplified opinion |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 14:02
|
"Opuslola, you are in the minority it appears
"
Thanks for the wink! Perhaps you are considering the election results after todays voting? 
I may be in the "minority" but it seems my favorite candidates will soon be in the "majority!"
Good luck to all! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 14:14
|
I'm sorry, I shouldve been more clear, i meant right wing radicals (such as Tea Partiers/Becker's, those who hate immigrants, minorities, muslims, homosexuals, religious fundamentalists, etc...) are in the minority. I have known for a long time that ignorant people are by far the majority in this nation (and this spans both sides of the political spectrum, although one side more than the other) and these people swing left and right so much...they voted in Obama in a land slide victory, and now they will most likely give the Republicans a majority in the House by a slim margin. I'm not delusional, I'm pretty sure that the American people will hammer the last nail into the coffin today, unfortunately. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 14:47
|
They might well stop the spending insanity that will for sure place the last nail in America's coffin!
Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 15:25
Republicans spend just as much if not more than Democrats do. Thats your fun fact for the day, now go watch Fox News again, which probably has you brainwashed into thinking that Democrats spend more. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 17:15
|
If you noticed the number of so called Republicans who refused to follow their so called party and decided to make a pact with the Democrats in an attempt to elect Democrats rather than any one using the Republican label with Tea Party support!
You see, just like that ding dong in New England, they were never really republicans, they were Liberal/progressives in Republican garb! And I think that the Republicans stand a very good chance to get a strong majority in the HoR, and maybe, just maybe a small majority in the Senate! We will soon see! And, since you seemed to distinguish the intelligence of Republican voters versus Democrat voters, then maybe you will enjoy this little video taken at the Progressive march on D.C. http://www.theblaze.com/stories/stewartcolbert-rally-goers-obama-is-not-a-keynesian-hes-an-american/ John Maynard Keynes would be turning over if he could? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2010 at 23:49
Because those Republicans understood the danger of the radical right, which is the Tea Party. Republicans came out several times warning of the danger of the Tea Party and its radicalism, and how its taking over the Republican party. The radical right has now taken over the right...seems familiar doesnt it?
Got HoR as expected, Democrats still hold the Senate. There may yet still be hope for this country. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 12:58
I'm sorry, I shouldve been more clear, i meant right wing radicals (such as Tea Partiers/Becker's, those who hate immigrants, minorities, muslims, homosexuals, religious fundamentalists, etc...) are in the minority. I agree they are in the minority but anyone who supports the Tea Party or opposes the Jihadist agenda are hateful and racist to people such as yourself. From my perspective anyone who supports Marxism is a radical left-winger. If the Tea Party is racist then prove it and claim your $100,000 reward. So far, no one can so that offer is ongoing! When it comes to immigrants the only immigrants these people oppose begin with an adjective "illegal." We are a sovereign nation and we have the right to say who comes in a who does not. Alan Keyes, a black man, is a great supporter of the Tea Party but you don't count people like him since blacks are supposed to toe the line and support the Democratic Party. I told you there would be a major win by the conservatives this Nov. but you would not listen. The Rhino Republicans are on probation and if they don't behave you will see the rise of the Tea Party as a legate conservative party. Your wose nightmare will become reality! I still don't like the title of this which should be why are some Muslims dangerous, most are not. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 13:24
|
Our history books do not stress that the Romanized Franks spread Christianity with the sword and created the Holy Roman Empire when the Center of Rome was too weak to hold control. Genghis Khan told his people to never settled down and never choose one religion over the other, because the Muslims and Christians were constantly fighting each other. In general our history books give us a sanitized and Christian controlled account of history. I was blown away when I began communicating with Muslims and learned Israel is the middle of Palestine, breaking Palestine up into many reservations located on the worst land and controls transportation between these reservations. Not so different from the Indo-Euro conquest of the Americas. If Muslims feel like they are on the defensive and loosing ground, may be there is some justication for this?
Yes, I agree a lot of barbaric things have been done in the name of Christ (mainly the Roman Catholic Church) and in general a lot of evil things have been done by humans whether it was under the banner of some religion or political. The difference being that Christians, who have done evil, cannot say they have followed the examples of Christ. Whereas, Muslims can say they follow the examples of Muhammad found in the Qur'an, the Hadith and the Sunna. This does not mean that many Muslims are peaceful today and are either ignorant of what their Orthodox beliefs really teach or they choose to ignore them in much the same way a liberal Christian does not take the Bible literally. On the most part Christianity has reformed but I don't see this in Islam like we have seen say with the Roman Catholic Church. There are some movements in Islam to reform the religion but they are a minority. One I have mentioned before is: www.muslimsagainstsharialaw.com Try and pick up, on DVD, a series about the Crusades by Dr Madden. i will put the title up later. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 13:41
|
Protestants were as barbaric as Catholics. It is Christianity as a whole that had a problem. The advent of secular republic finished all that as it removed the levers of political power from all these sects and denominations. The problem with many posts is that they represent Muslims as a monolithic religion. The dangerous sect in the Muslim world are Wahhabis. They need to be contained. I don't think Sufis ever represented a menace. The big civilizational struggle is not between religions, it is between rural, small town areas and urbanized ones. It just happens that these backward areas are also most religiously fanatical and are easiest stirred into jihad or crusade. This is even visible in US society. One has to keep in mind that there is no single Muslim country that was not messed up by Westerners and Western countries bear some responsibility here. We keep forgetting that US created Osama by channeling funds for fight agains Soviets through Al-Qaeda. Iran would be much less hostile if we did not mess with it in 1953. History is like Physics, all actions create reactions. ------------- "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 14:14
Right you are and I never said the Protestants were not guilty of evil but being older I believe the Catholics have done more damage to the faith. Both faiths have reformed and while they are still human I don't see the violence, in them, that you find in Orthodox Islam. I agree the uneducated are more likely to become manipulated into violent acts but the Crusades were in reaction to Christian lands being conquered by the armies of Islam. It does not mean the crusaders did not do evil in the name of their faith. I think under the Ottoman rule you will find Islam did more than its share of messing up, 130 years of colonial rule vs. 1300 years of Islamic domination of Christian lands. (see) The Decline of Hellenism in Asia Minor by spero Vyronis or the Legacy of Jihad by Dr. Bostom Yes, the US government does a lot of things most Americans don't agree with. It seems like an old Byzantine tactic of playing one enemy against another. The enemy of my enemy is my friend or briefly. I agree there are always consequences in all the choses we make in history, good or bad. My hope is Islam will reform but the Jihadist don't agree with that. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 16:34
|
Again I would suggest that we all have a laugh while watching this?
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/stewartcolbert-rally-goers-obama-is-not-a-keynesian-hes-an-american/ Stupidity knows no boundaries! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 20:42
Thank you for informed and civil post. I think we the very notion that there is a God with favorite people is the problem. Another problem is being imimgrants. This too has historically been a a problem. When the US was prejudice against the Irish, the Irish were also causing a problem, stimulating the federal government to mandate communities provide free public education to "Americanize the immigrants". It seems to me we do not pay enough attention to the importance of education and culture. This is something many rural areas of the world do not have, leaving only religion to build a culture, and I don't care which religion, they all cause trouble.
|
Posted By: Athena
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 21:44
What a cop out. You never said Protestants were not quilty. But you keep writing as though it were superior. Interesting how different the truth llooks with all the facts. Humans and humans regardless of their religion. Christianity didn't just reform. Many forces came into play and industrialization was a major one. Basically Islam is going through the same evolution Chrisitianity went through. It just got a later start, and those in areas without developed insutry are way behind those in industrialized areas. I think if we are trying to find the cause of human behavior, we have to look futher than the color of a person's skin or the religious association.
PS I believe King David would be the Christian model of warrior king.
|
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2010 at 22:22
The violence potential is there. These are few quotes from Jerry Falwell. He had and has (posthumously) still large following.
He said much more. Just think what would happen if he had political power. We have many of his lunatic followers still converting us to a christian republic.
------------- "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain |
Posted By: Deathless
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 02:07
If I may ask which part of Turkey have you visited? |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 12:11
|
With regards to Muslims being a dangerous people, I pose a question: How many people have Muslims killed in the last 100 years? How many people has the "white man" killed in the last 100 years? Whose more dangerous? ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 12:26
|
Good point. Portraying Muslims as dangerous serves a very good political objective. The afraid populace is easier to control and mislead. I think we got many politicians following teachings of Machiavelli and Goebbels.
------------- "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 13:43
|
You go out to the streets and know that everyone can blast a bomb to kill you but it is better to say the dangeous ones are the military people who killed or were killed during the wars 100 years ago. -------------
|
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 14:39
|
I don't know about you, but statistically, I have more chances dying in the car accident than at the hands of a terrorist. ------------- "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 16:34
100,000 moderate Muslims were killed by jihadist in Alergia http://www.donparrish.com/Algeria.html - http://www.donparrish.com/Algeria.html Coptic Christians murdered and persecuted in Egypt and this article is one of many examples with the Coptic Christians. http://www.eagleworldnews.com/2010/01/07/coptic-christians-killed-at-church-in-egypt/ - http://www.eagleworldnews.com/2010/01/07/coptic-christians-killed-at-church-in-egypt/ Christian killed in Iraq: Iraqi Christian murdered: http://www.worthynews.com/1185-iraq-kidnappers-murder-church-elder-in-mosul - http://www.worthynews.com/1185-iraq-kidnappers-murder-church-elder-in-mosul Radical Cleric Calls for Death to Americans: https://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/November/Radical-Yemeni-Cleric-Calls-for-Death-to-Americans/ - https://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/November/Radical-Yemeni-Cleric-Calls-for-Death-to-Americans/ The murder of Buddist: https://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/November/Radical-Yemeni-Cleric-Calls-for-Death-to-Americans/ - https://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/November/Radical-Yemeni-Cleric-Calls-for-Death-to-Americans/ Hindu: http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1879 - http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1879 This is only the tip of the iceberg and if you did your own homework you would see. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 17:32
|
Answer my question, how many people has the white man killed in the last 100 years? The number of people killed by Muslims is dwarfed in comparison to the more than 100 million killed by white men. By your logic, white men are far more dangerous than Muslims. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 18:21
Now I know I was correct that whenever you point a finger you have three pointing back. I wonder who is the white hating racists and the white man is far from the only ones guilty of this, how many did the Japanese kill? I don't justify any killing by any group but Muslims have done their share also. It is estimated 80 million people were killed by Muslims during the Islamic Invasions of India. Like I said I don't care if someone wants to be a Muslim and it is their free choice as long as they respect other faiths, many do. Did they kill because they are the evil white man or did they come under the spell of some evil ideology like Nazism or Marxism (Stalin)? ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2010 at 18:21
|
In Iraq around 100,000 people died because of unwarranted war. 2 out of 3 were civilians. These very conservative numbers. Most likely the total was more than 500,000. ------------- "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 01:21
Exactly, Muslims who kill are no different then whites who kill or Japanese who kill, so how are you so insistent that Muslims are the bad guys when it could just as easily be said that whites are the bad guys?
Ok, lets say that Muslims have killed about 100 million people in their 1000+ years of history (this is a huge stretch of the imagination but lets assume so anyways). In 1/10 of that time, 100 years, Whites have killed well more than 150 million people across the globe. So tell me, whose more dangerous?
White men have killed more many different reasons, INCLUDING THE REASON THAT THEY WERE WHITE, AND ALL OTHERS WERE INFERIOR. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 04:02
|
eaglecap mentioned an important thing, the danger is of the ideology, not the people, I believe Islamism is as dangerous as Nazism, it is not really a good reason to say Muslims have right to kill other people because the followers of other evil ideologies had killed some million people in the last 100 years. -------------
|
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 10:32
There are 1.5 billon Muslims in the world. It is unfair to paint them all with the same brush. The fact that "Red Brigades" were European terrorists, does not make all Europeans terrorists. The terrorists are as old as history of mankind, there is a chance that after all present religions are gone, terrorists will still exist. ------------- "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 11:56
I'm one of them, also my family, friends and etc. You know what I meant, do you believe that Nazis were a dangerous people? Does it mean all people who lived in Nazi Germany were also dangerous? What do you think about Palestinians, Israelis/Zionists, ...? -------------
|
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 12:06
|
i see your point. Way I see it, there is no advanced Muslim country. Yet, at some time in the history, they were more advanced than West. This is one of these chicken and egg questions. Does Muslim religion has something preventing its adepts from moving forward, or backward societies adapting it made it backward? The societies stuck in Middle Ages are always somewhat dangerous as they operate according to different value system.
------------- "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 12:10
|
Cyrus, I'm not trying to justify killing perpetrated by Islamist militants, what I am trying to do is point out the hypocrisy of the beliefs of people like eaglecap. Islamist actions are in reality no better or worse than actions taken by western governments per se. The reason for killing might be different and in some cases a secret but in reality, the threat Islamist pose is really insignificant compared to other threats in world history. ITS ALL BEING HYPED UP BY PEOPLE LIKE EAGLECAP who have nothing better to do but create hate and fear. ------------- I use CAPS for emphasis, not yelling. Just don't want to have to click the bold button every time. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 12:12
|
I just read an interesting thing in telegraph.co.uk: http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tomchivers/100048697/does-sakineh-mohammadi-ashtianis-sentence-represent-the-true-face-of-islam/ - the 'true face' of Islam , it talks about my country: The country’s deputy foreign minister, Hassan Ghashghavi, said: “We live in an Islamic country and we act according to the Koran’s sentences. Even if 100,000 must be executed, we will carry out the Koran’s sentences.” Human rights groups claim that 500 people have been executed at one Iranian prison, Vakilabad, in the last 18 months alone. Amnesty International claims that three people have been stoned to death. http://www.amnesty.org/en/appeals-for-action/end-execution-stoning-iran - Lest it be forgotten, according to Articles 102 and 104 of the Iranian penal code , stoning involves being buried up to one’s breasts (or waist, for men) and pelted with stones “[not] large enough to kill the person by one or two strikes; [nor] so small that they could not be defined as stones”. Or, to put it another way, it is execution deliberately designed to cause a slow and painful death. Say what you like about the United States’ death penalty – and I have plenty to say about that – at least they have a professed intention to kill painlessly. It is (theoretically) about justice rather than vengeance. This is brutal. And yet it is part of the law, enshrined in the “religion of peace”.
Or is it? There’s the eternal question. Is Islam a religion of peace, co-opted by savage medievalists, or a religion of cruelty and tyranny, given a gloss of acceptability by well-meaning adherents? Which is the true face of Islam, the Red Crescent or the Taliban? -------------
|
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2010 at 12:22
|
Any religion's system of justice applied literally would look savage by civilized standards. All Abrahamic religions have similar punishments and cruelty built in. The civilized societies do not let them implement this type of justice system. This is why secular republics are experiencing progress and those dominated by clerics are not. It seems a society has to separate itself from religion to escape the savage behavior induced by it. In the case of Europe the saving grace were empirical, non-Chrsitian Greek and Roman pre-barbarian civilizations. It took almost 1,500 years to reconnect, but this ended European, religion inspired savagery. For this reason Iran has a chance. It has impressive roots, predating Islam. One day people will start reconnecting to Persia's pre-Islamic period. This will put right perspective on Islamic religion.
------------- "Loyalty to petrified opinion never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul." Mark Twain |