English and other Indo-European languages
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28072
Printed Date: 17-Apr-2024 at 16:29 Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: English and other Indo-European languages
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: English and other Indo-European languages
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 01:36
These are some personal pronouns in English and some other Indo-European languages:
English |
Avestan |
Greek |
Latin |
Persian |
Armenian |
Hindi |
German |
Irish |
Polish |
You |
Yuzh |
Esi |
Tu |
To |
Du |
Tu |
Du |
Tu |
Ty |
He |
Hi |
Avtos |
Is |
Ou |
Na |
Vaha |
Er |
Se |
On |
We |
Vae |
Emeis |
Nos |
Ma |
Menk |
Ham |
Wir |
Muid |
My |
Which one do you think to be more similar to English?
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Replies:
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 04:40
To German, because you just show the odern languages of English and german! E.g. the old english is Thou, it is the same with old low German as far as I remember. It is the same with he and we. But you can also take a look to Scandinavia.
Sorry Cyrus, but this is very rediculous. Please try to keep AE standards as high as possible, otherwise you can change this into a fairy tales forum
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 09:48
English is considered as a Germanic language and it is an obvious fact that it is very similar to German but it can't be a reason that we ignore the similarities between this language and other Indo-European languages, for example about the names of animals like Bird, Dog, Sheep, Pig, ... can you find any similar words in the Germanic languages, whenas almost the same words exist in the Avestan language?
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 13:23
http://ecclesia.org/truth/thou.html
http://alt-usage-english.org/pronoun_paradigms.html
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1393/what-do-thou-thee-and-thine-mean-and-why-dont-we-use-them-anymore
http://german.about.com/od/grammar/a/Siedu.htm
Hope some of the above helps?
Regards,
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Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 08:21
Let throw in some Dutch :
English-Dutch
You Jij
He Hij
We Wij
The Dutch J- is the English y ( as in you, yes etc )
The Dutch -ij – looks strange but sounds precisely like the -ei - in Italian ( vorrei, sei ) . The –ae as in maestro and German -ei- ( Zeit etc) come close.
Standard variants on Jij and Wij are Je and We ( the -e- pronounced as the e in English the.
English ( before French influence )was closest to Old Dutch and Frisian.
The listed pronouns show remarkable similarities in these 3 IE languages :
English Dutch Avestan
You Jij/ Je Yuzh
He Hij Hi
We Wij/We Wae Ofcourse, The English and Dutch forms here are modern while Avestan is ancient
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 09:11
One interesting thing about the Dutch language is the "gh" sound, there are a few words in Persian langauge which begin with the letter "gh", most of them are similar to the Dutch one:
Persian |
English |
Dutch |
Ghaz |
Goose |
Gans |
Ghorolond |
Grumble |
Grommelen |
Gheriv |
Clamor |
Geroep |
Ghezh |
Whiz |
Gesuis |
Ghel |
Roll |
Gerol |
Ghak |
Fool/Queer |
Gek |
Ghelghelak |
Happy (rolling and laughing) |
Gelukkig |
Ghelak |
Laugh |
Gelach |
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 12:40
Cyrus, if I can make a small point?
You wrote;
"Ghezh Whiz Gesuis"
Maybe I am seeing things, but here in the USA, we actually would say "gee whiz!" To make a surprised exclamation! It looks suspiciously like I would pronounce, "G-hezh!", or even a possibility for "Ge-suis!"
In addition, it is thought that "gee whiz" is but a slang or sneeky way to say "Jesus", like "Jeeze!", etc., and that made me think. It made me think that "Ge-suis", in your list, sounds very similar to some French words, especially "Je suis!", and "Je suis", means something very Biblical, that is it means "I AM!"
Regards,
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Posted By: mercurybc
Date Posted: 25-May-2010 at 02:49
Some Persian Words Common With Other Indo-European Languages (Cognate Words) : These are my own compilations from various sources or my own research, and still I am adding to them :
KISS , persian : boosse , spanish : beso , french : baiser , italian : bacio , lithuanian : bucinys / THUNDER , persian : tondar , german : donner / KNEE , persian : zanu , hindi : janu , french : genou / BREAST or CHEST , persian : sineh , italian : seno , french : sein / CRY , persian : geryeh , swedish : grata , french : cri , german : schrei / SHAME , persian : sharm , german : scham , swedish : scam / RAIN , persian : baran / THROAT , persian : galoo , italian : gola , hindi : gela , slovenian : grlo , polish : gardlo , croatian : grlo / BALD , persian : kal , italian : calvo , german : kahl , dutch : kaal , catalan : calb , finnish : kalju , spanish : calvo / CORPSE , persian : lasheh , german : leiche , hindi : lash / ON FOOT , persian : piadeh , french : a pied , italian : a piedi / ENOUGH , persian : bass , italian & spanish : basta / GOOSE , persian : ghaaz , danish : gas , swedish : gas , spanish : ganso , slovenian : gos / LICK , persian : liss , polish : lizac , slovenian : lizati / MORGUE , persian : marg = death / DEAD , persian : mordeh , french : mort , italian : morto / JACKAL , persian : shaghal , finnish : sakaali , french : chacal , italian : sciacallo , swedish : schakal / THAT , persian : ke , french : que , italian : che , hindi : ki / WHO , persian : ki , french : qui , italian : che / WHAT , persian : che or che chizi , italian : che cosa / MOTHER , persian : madar , italian : madre , spanish : madre , dutch : moeder , french : mere , swedish : mor , slovenian : mati / another old word for MOTHER , persian : maam , welsh : mam , english : mom or mum / FATHER , persian : pedar , italian : padre , german : vater , dutch : vader / DAUGHTER , persian : dokhtar , german : tochter , dutch : dochter , danish : datter / SISTER , persian : khahar (but written khwahar) and in rural persian pronounced khwaer , welsh : chwaer (literally pronounced khwaer) / TOOTH , persian : dandan , italian : dente , french : dent , lithuanian : dantis / TWO , persian : do , spanish : dos , italian : duo , lithuanian : du , hindi : do , french : deux / FOUR , Persian : chahar , irish : ceathair (pronounced ka-hir) / FIVE , persian : panj , hindi : panch , greek : penta / SIX , persian : shish or shesh , irish : sé (pronounced shay) / EIGHT , persian : hasht , german : acht , irish : ocht , hindi : aat / NINE , persian : noh , italian : nove , hindi : no , french : neuf , german : neun , irish : naoi , swedish: nio / SIXTY , persian : shast , russian : sheyst dee syaat , sanskrit : sasta / NEW , persian : no , german : neu , italian : nuovo , hindi : neya , irish : nua , norvegian : nye , romanian : nou , russian : nawvee / NO , persian : nah , romanian : nu , lithuanian : ne / PONDER , persian : pendar , spanish : pensar , portuguese : pensar , italian : pensare , french : penser / INTER , persian : andar , dutch : onder , german : unter / STAR , persian : setareh , dutch : ster , italian : stella , german : stern / IS , persian : ast , german : ist , french : est , spanish : es / BROTHER , persian : baradar , german : bruder / NOT or IS NOT , persian : nist , french : n'est , german : nicht / YOU or THOU , persian : to , italian : tu , slovenian : ti , german : du , hindi : to / I , persian : man , finnish : minä / NAME , persian : naam , german : name , hindi : naam , italian : nome , french : nom / MOUSE , persian : mush , italian : mouse (pronounced mu - ze) , dutch : muis , croatian : mish , russian : mysh / WATER , persian : aab , in rural persian : "o" , french : eau / CHIN , persian : chaaneh / DOOR , persian : dar , dutch : deur / YOUNG , persian : javan , italian : giovane , french : jeune / EARTH , persian : zamin or zemin , latvian : zeme , polish : ziemia , czech : země ,russian : zimliah / COW , persian : gav , sanskrit : go or gau / YOKE , persian : yough , german : joch / DEVIL , persian : div , italian : diavolo / STAND , persian : istadan , lithuanian : stendas , old english : standan / NAVEL , persian : naf , icelandic : nafla , estonian : naba , finnish : napa , german : nabel / NAVE , persian : nav , italian : navata , french : nef / LIP , persian : lab , spanish : labio , italian : labbro , portoguese : labio / WOMAN , persian : zan , croatian : žena , czech : žena , slovak : žena / STATE , persian : ostan , polish : stan , croatian : stanje , icelandic : astand / STONE , irish : cloch , persian : clooch or clookh (of course doesn't mean stone , but means fist size pieces of hardened and dried mud on outdoors) / MIDDLE or AVERAGE , persian : myaan or myaangin , french : moyen or moyenne , english : mean / ANT , persian : moor , russian : moo raa vey , icelandic : maur , finnish : muurahainen , norwegian : maur , danish : myre , dutch : mier , bosnian : mrav / TABLE , persian : miz , slovenian : miza , spanish : mesa , romanian : masă , bulgarian : masa , hindi : mez / SLIPPERY or SMOOTH : persian : liz , french : lisse , portuguese : liso , italian : liscio , basque : deslizamientos , catalan : Lliscant , croatian : Kliženje / NAIL , persian : nakhon , sanskrit : nakha , german : nagel / FEATHER , persian : par , russian : peró , czech : pèro , croatian : pèro / SILVER , persian : sim , greek : asimi / BRANCH (of a tree) , persian : shakheh , sanskrit : shaakha , lithuanian : šaka , hindi : shaaka / FACE , persian : chehreh , middle english. : chere , old french : chiere , spanish : cara ..."cheer" in modern english also is from the same root, "be of good cheer," means, "put on a happy face." / KEY , persian : cleed or keleed , french : clé , czech : klíč , greek : kleidi , spanish : clave / SAINT , avestan persian : espand , romanian : sfânt , sânt , spanish : santo / JUNGLE , persian : jangal , sanskrit : jangala (जंगल) which is referred to uncultivated land , hindi : jangal , german : dschungel , russian : džúngli / ORANGE , persian : nārang , sanskrit नारङ्ग (nāranga), meaning “orange tree" , spanish : naranja / NOW , persian : aknun , middle persian : nun , german : nun , latin : nunc , danish : nu , dutch : nu / FAIRY , persian : pari , armenian : p’eri
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Jun-2010 at 14:32
Thanks for all of the above! I am still "Pondering" them!
Regards,
------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posted By: mercurybc
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 04:40
Thanks Opuslola , If you google for "avesta cognates" or "Dictionary of most common avesta words" , strangely you will find that almost majority of the avestan cognate words ONLY resemble to ENGLISH words , like these avestan words : year (yare) ,arm (arema), you (yuzh), he (he) ,we (vae) ,fresh (frasha) , win (van) , ice (isi) , three (thri) and.....these similarities are mind boggling !...specially considering the distance between Iran and England
------------- Mercurybc
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:10
I don't think you can use modern German as a good comparison
HochDeutsch )Modern German) is pretty much a made up language as Germany is a made up state.
The Northern Half of Germany spoke (and really still speaks) a Niederdeustch (Low German) that is a Low saxon dialect that includes- NiederRheinsch (there is conflict wether it is low franconian or low saxon it is a mix of both), PlatteDeustch, Westphalen (my GG Grandparents dads mom side) area 6 on the map) and so on. Dutch is also a low saxon, My great grandparents spoke NiederRheinsch (area 15) it is closer to old dutch, old english and the gelder dialect than Hochdeustch.
There is also low franconian, frankdeutsch and the Palantite-- etc, etc
Basically when the Prussians took over they wanted a unified language (The Prussian court spoke French by the way) Hochdeustch was made the official language under the kulturekampf (This was also done to appease Bavaria and make a Prussian Bavarain union more likley)
Dialects of Low German are widely spoken in the northeastern area of the Netherlands ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Low_Saxon - Dutch Low Saxon ) and are written there with Dutch orthography.
Variants of Low German were widely (and are still to a far lesser extent) spoken in most parts of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Germany - Northern Germany , for instance in the states of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Saxony - Lower Saxony , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Rhine-Westphalia - North Rhine-Westphalia , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamburg - Hamburg , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bremen - Bremen , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schleswig-Holstein - Schleswig-Holstein , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mecklenburg-Vorpommern - Mecklenburg-Vorpommern , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxony-Anhalt - Saxony-Anhalt and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg - Brandenburg . Small portions of northern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesse - Hesse and northern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thuringia - Thuringia are traditionally Low Saxon speaking too. Historically, Low German was also spoken in formerly German parts of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland - Poland as well as in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia - East Prussia and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_States - Baltic States of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonia - Estonia and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia - Latvia . The language was also formerly spoken in the outer areas of what is now the city state of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berlin - Berlin but in the course of urbanisation and national centralisation in that city the language vanished
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1f/Verbreitungsgebiet_der_heutigen_niederdeutschen_Mundarten.PNG">
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:24
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meuse - Meuse - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhine - Rhine area, a large group of southeastern Low Franconian dialects, including areas in Belgium, the Netherlands and the German Northern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhineland - Rhineland . The northwestern part of this triangle came under the influence of the Dutch standard language, especially since the founding of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_the_Netherlands - United Kingdom of the Netherlands in 1815. The southeastern part became a part of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Prussia - Kingdom of Prussia at the same time, and from then it was subject to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German - High German language domination. At the dialectal level however, mutual understanding is still possible far beyond both sides of the national borders.
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 05:32
The 15 dialect reflects what tribes were dominant in the area-- German tribal dialects survived until modern times. Franks and Saxons were both competing confederations of tribes not really tribes unto themselves (The map only shows the low saxon area)
For example Chatti (hessians ) were not Franks but were in the Frank confederation. The Cherusi were in both at differnt times. While in thoery the Franks and Saxons were the lead tribes they were both a conglomerate of various tribes.
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 12:20
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
One interesting thing about the Dutch language is the "gh" sound, there are a few words in Persian langauge which begin with the letter "gh", most of them are similar to the Dutch one:
Persian |
English |
Dutch |
Ghaz |
Goose |
Gans |
Ghorolond |
Grumble |
Grommelen |
Gheriv |
Clamor |
Geroep |
Ghezh |
Whiz |
Gesuis |
Ghel |
Roll |
Gerol |
Ghak |
Fool/Queer |
Gek |
Ghelghelak |
Happy (rolling and laughing) |
Gelukkig |
Ghelak |
Laugh |
Gelach | |
I wonder if that is were Geek comes from- it kind of means a fool in english slang.
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 12:23
My point is--I think it is hard to compare modern english- (it is such a borrower lang) or HochDeustch--I see a closer comparison in old saxon and dutch (which is low saxon) to the Persian
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 04-Jun-2010 at 13:23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language - Dutch title |
Generaal |
Luitenant-Generaal |
Generaal-Majoor |
Brigade-Generaal |
Kolonel |
Luitenant-Kolonel |
Majoor |
Kapitein |
Eerste-Luitenant |
Tweede-Luitenant |
Vaandrig |
(cavalry/artillery) |
|
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|
|
|
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Ritmeester (Cavalry only) |
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Kornet |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language - English equivalent |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General - General |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_General - Lieutenant General |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_General - Major General |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigadier - Brigadier |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonel - Colonel |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant_Colonel - Lieutenant Colonel |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major - Major |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_%28land_and_air%29 - Captain |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lieutenant - Lieutenant |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Lieutenant - Second Lieutenant |
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Officer_Cadet - Officer Cadet |
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 02:03
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus
I wonder if that is were Geek comes from- it kind of means a fool in english slang. |
It seems the English word has the same origin, of course the Persian word doesn't actually means "fool", as you read the online translation of this word in the Persian Dictioanry website: http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fa&u=http://www.loghatnaameh.com/dehkhodaworddetail-15bd0c23b1cf4047a1489854373d0411-fa.html&ei=PAgKTMjgHISkOKn45SM&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ7gEwAA&prev=/search%3Fq%3D%25D8%25BA%25DA%25A9%26hl%3Den - Click Here -> "someone is short and to the height and the high fat and mutilate is ridiculous too", the better translation is "Ghak is someone who is short, and with this height is also fat, inefficient and ridiculous."
I should say that Ghak is too old and isn't actually used in the Modern Persian, we mostly use Dalghak (dull geek?) which means "clown, buffoon".
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 02:34
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus
My point is--I think it is hard to compare modern english- (it is such a borrower lang) or HochDeustch--I see a closer comparison in old saxon and dutch (which is low saxon) to the Persian |
You are right, it is even better to compare the oldest ones, I mean Germanic Gothic Language and Iranian Gathic Language. In fact Gathic, Old Avestan, is one of the oldest Indo-European languages.
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Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 13:08
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus
My point is--I think it is hard to compare modern english- (it is such a borrower lang) or HochDeustch--I see a closer comparison in old saxon and dutch (which is low saxon) to the Persian |
You made that error before in this thead. Standard Dutch is classified as Low Franconian, not Low Saxon. More specifically :
IE>Germanic >West-Germanic> Low Franconian>Old Frankish ( Salic Franks)>Old (west)Low Franconian(=Old Dutch) >Middle Dutch> Modern Dutch.
Only the regional languages/dialects in the north-eastern part of the Netherlands are classified as Low Saxon.
To illustrate this :
Red colours : Low Franconian
Green : Low Saxon
BTW. Maximus Germanicus' own map ( a few postings back) shows the same classification ( as any good map does )
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 14:05
That make isn't super accurate. Dutch is a mixture of Low franconian and low saxon-- The Dutch were Saxon and Frisian (Conquered by the Franks) The oldest Dutch spoken was a low Saxon.
Ref 1
Dutch is a descendant of several http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language - Frankish dialects spoken in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Middle_Ages - High Middle Ages and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Early_Modern_Times - Early Modern Times , and to a lesser extent of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frisian_languages - Frisian , that was spoken by the original inhabitants of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland - Holland . It did not undergo the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_German_consonant_shift - High German consonant shift (apart from the transition from /θ/ to /d/), and is a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Franconian_languages - Low Franconian language . There was at one time a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect_continuum - dialect continuum that blurred the boundary between Dutch and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German - Low Saxon . In some small areas, there are still dialect continua, but they are gradually becoming extinct.
Dutch Low Saxon (Dutch Low Saxon: Nedersaksisch) is a group of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German - Low Saxon (i.e., http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German - Low German ) dialects spoken in the northeastern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netherlands - Netherlands (in comparison, the remainder of the Netherlands speak a collection of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Franconian_dialect - Low Franconian dialects ). The class "Dutch Low Saxon" is not unanimous. From a http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/diachronic - diachronic point of view, the Dutch Low Saxon dialects are merely the Low Saxon dialects which are native to areas in the Netherlands (as opposed to areas in northern Germany or Denmark). From a strictly http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/synchronic - synchronic point of view, however, some linguists classify Dutch Low Saxon as a variety of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language - Dutch . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_Low_Saxon#cite_note-0 - [1] Some Dutch Low Saxon dialects show features of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Westphalian_language - Westphalian , a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Low_German - West Low German dialect spoken in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany - Germany .
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 14:11
Old Dutch was more saxon with the Frankish dialects becoming stronger thru the high middle ages and early modern times. (And closley related to old English) That is what I said in the post. The languages are still very similar due to the saxon background of both.
Dutch, like English, has lost the word doe "thou" and replaced it by jij, " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You - you ", originally the second person plural. In many Low Saxon dialects in the Netherlands, the very same happened. The doe - ie/ieje/ij isogloss runs surprisingly close to the Dutch border, except in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groningen_%28province%29 - Groningen , where it enters the Dutch territory with a vengeance (in the entire province this word is known). In http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twente - Twente , it is present in the easternmost villages of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denekamp - Denekamp and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldenzaal - Oldenzaal , in de http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achterhoek - Achterhoek ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gelderland - Gelderland ), dou is present in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winterswijk - Winterswijk and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groenlo - Groenlo .
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Posted By: Maximus Germanicus
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 14:23
While yes modern Dutch is low franconian. At the time when Old Dutch was spoken there a lot of Frisian and Low saxon as well as Frank influences, a large part of teh NLDs still speak in old saxon dialect that influences the over all language.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 15:58
MG, I certainly enjoy your remarks!, as well as the others that have responded to this fragment of remarks!
Do you have any special appreciation of Frisian? It has seemed to me, that this language may have kept itself free of a lot of the mergers that have occured in other language strands? That is, seperated upon mostly barren islands, part of ancient Frisia (Phrygia?) might have kept true or more true to its origin(s) than the surrounding dialects, etc.?
Do you agree with some historians that Freisian/ Frisian means "free" or "freedom?"
I hope you see by my used of "PH" that I point to that mostly mysterous land of Phrygia, whereby, we are now told that the famous "Cap of Liberty", or "Phrygian Cap", or "Liberty Cap?", supposedly originated!
Can you see any connection at all? Afterall, we are told that this very "hat device", seems to have existed for over 1,000 years mostly unchanged! Even Pre-Roman religion seems to have adopted it?
Regards,
------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 05-Jun-2010 at 22:24
Originally posted by Maximus Germanicus
While yes modern Dutch is low franconian. At the time when Old Dutch was spoken there a lot of Frisian and Low saxon as well as Frank influences, a large part of teh NLDs still speak in old saxon dialect that influences the over all language. |
Note that MG finally realizes ( at least here ) that Dutch is Low Franconian and not Low Saxon as he claimed before.
Old Dutch was not simply influenced by Frankish : it was Frankish ( "Old Dutch " is Old West Low Franconian evolving out of Old Frankish ) and evolved in Middle Dutch and Modern Dutch . Old-, Middle- and modern Dutch are all Low Franconian.
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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 05:23
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
One interesting thing about the Dutch language is the "gh" sound, there are a few words in Persian langauge which begin with the letter "gh", most of them are similar to the Dutch one:
Persian |
English |
Dutch |
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l |
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Ghelak |
Laugh |
Gelach | |
Wow. We still use 'Gelak' for 'Laugh' in modern colloquial Malay. Now only I know where the term came from.
------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.
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Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 06-Jun-2010 at 18:13
MG . This is an informal warning
You made 9 posts in a row in this thread, most pretty long. Such is absurd in a discussion . It disrupts and borders on hysteria.
Dont post anymore here. I will make a special thread for this issue . Some of this debate will be moved to that one and continue soon.
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Posted By: mercurybc
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2010 at 19:15
Some Persian Words Common With Other Indoeuropean Languages (Cognate Words) : This is my own compilation from various sources or my own research, and still i am adding to them :
1 KISS , persian : boosse , spanish : beso , french : baiser , italian : bacio , lithuanian : bucinys 2 THUNDER , persian : tondar , german : donner 3 KNEE , persian : zanu , hindi : janu , french : genou 4 BREAST or CHEST , persian : sineh , italian : seno , french : sein 5 CRY , persian : geryeh , swedish : grata , french : cri , german : schrei 6 RAIN , persian : baran 7 THROAT , persian : galoo , italian : gola , hindi : gela , slovenian : grlo , polish : gardlo , croatian : grlo 8 BALD , persian : kal (in older generations language) , italian : calvo , german : kahl , dutch : kaal , catalan : calb , finnish : kalju , spanish : calvo 9 CORPSE , persian : lasheh , german : leiche , hindi : lash 10 ON FOOT , persian : piadeh , french : a pied , italian : a piedi 11 SHAME , persian : sharm , german : scham , swedish : scam 12 ENOUGH , persian : bass , italian & spanish : basta 13 GOOSE , persian : ghaaz , danish : gas , swedish : gas , spanish : ganso , slovenian : gos 14 LICK , persian : liss , polish : lizac , slovenian : lizati 15 MORGUE , persian : marg = death 16 DEAD , persian : mordeh , french : mort , italian : morto 17 JACKAL , persian : shaghal , finnish : sakaali , french : chacal , italian : sciacallo , swedish : schakal 18 THAT , persian : ke , french : que , italian : che , hindi : ki 19 WHO , persian : ki , french : qui , italian : che 20 WHAT , persian : che or che chizi , italian : che cosa 21 MOTHER , persian : madar , italian : madre , spanish : madre , dutch : moeder , french : mere , swedish : mor , slovenian : mati 22 Another old word for MOTHER , persian : maam , welsh : mam , english : mom or mum 23 FATHER , persian : pedar , italian : padre , german : vater , dutch : vader 24 DAUGHTER , persian : dokhtar , german : tochter , dutch : dochter , danish : datter 25 BROTHER , persian : baradar , german : bruder 26 SISTER , persian : khahar (but written khwahar) and in rural persian pronounced khwaer , welsh : chwaer (literally pronounced khwaer) 27 TOOTH , persian : dandan , italian : dente , french : dent , lithuanian : dantis 28 TWO , persian : do , spanish : dos , italian : duo , lithuanian : du , hindi : do , french : deux 29 FOUR , Persian : chahar , irish : ceathair (pronounced ka-hir) 30 FIVE , persian : panj , hindi : panch , greek : penta 31 SIX , persian : shish or shesh , latvian : seši (seshi) , lithuanian : šeši (sheshi) , polish : sześć (shesc) , romanian : şase (shasse) , russian : sheyst , slovak : šesť (shest) , irish : sé (pronounced shay) 32 EIGHT , persian : hasht , german : acht , irish : ocht , hindi : aat 33NINE , persian : noh , italian : nove , hindi : no , french : neuf , german : neun , irish : naoi , swedish: nio 34 SIXTY , persian : shast , russian : sheyst dee syaat , slovak : šesťdesiat (shestdesiat) , sanskrit : sasta 35 NEW , persian : no , german : neu , italian : nuovo , hindi : neya , irish : nua , norvegian : nye , romanian : nou , russian : nawvee 36 NO , persian : nah , romanian : nu , lithuanian : ne 37 PONDER , persian : pendar , spanish : pensar , portuguese : pensar , italian : pensare , french : penser 38 INTER , persian : andar , dutch : onder , german : unter 39 STAR , persian : setareh , dutch : ster , italian : stella , german : stern 40 IS , persian : ast , german : ist , french : est , spanish : es 41 NOT or IS NOT , persian : nist , french : n'est , german : nicht 42 YOU or THOU , persian : to , italian : tu , slovenian : ti , german : du , hindi : to 43 I , persian : man , finnish : minä 44 NAME , persian : naam , german : name , hindi : naam , italian : nome , french : nom 45 MOUSE , persian : mush , italian : mouse (pronounced mu - ze) , dutch : muis , croatian : mish , russian : mysh 46 WATER , persian : aab , old persian : ap , romanian : apă , sanskrit : aapah , in rural persian : "o" , french : eau 47 CHIN , persian : chaaneh 48 DOOR , persian : dar , dutch : deur 49 YOUNG , persian : javan , italian : giovane , french : jeune , lithuanian : jaunas , sanskrit : yuvan 50 EARTH , persian : zamin or zemin , avestan persian : zem , latvian : zeme , polish : ziemia , czech : země ,russian : zimliah 51 COW , persian : gav , sanskrit : go or gau 52 YOKE , persian : yough , german : joch 53 DEVIL , persian : div , italian : diavolo 54 STAND , persian : istadan , lithuanian : stendas , old english : standan 55 NAVEL , persian : naf , icelandic : nafla , estonian : naba , finnish : napa , german : nabel 56 NAVE , persian : nav , italian : navata , french : nef 57 LIP , persian : lab , spanish : labio , italian : labbro , portoguese : labio , danish : læbe 58 FAR , persian : fara (of course used as a prefix as : faratar= farther, faragard ,farayand, and actual word for far in persian is dur) 59 WOMAN , persian : zan , croatian : žena , czech : žena , slovak : žena , kurdish : jin 60 WOMAN , persian : banu (meaning lady) , greek : bena , celtic : bean, benw , benyw (welsh) 61 STATE , persian : ostan , polish : stan , croatian : stanje , icelandic : astand 62 STONE , irish : cloch , persian : clooch or clookh (of course doesn't mean stone , but means fist size pieces of hardened and dried mud on outdoors) 63 MIDDLE or AVERAGE , persian : myaan or myaangin , french : moyen or moyenne , english : mean 64 ANT , persian : moor , russian : moo raa vey , icelandic : maur , finnish : muurahainen , norwegian : maur , danish : myre , dutch : mier , bosnian : mrav 65 TABLE , persian : miz , slovenian : miza , spanish : mesa , romanian : masă , bulgarian : masa , hindi : mez 66 SLIPPERY or SMOOTH : persian : liz , french : lisse , portuguese : liso , italian : liscio , basque : deslizamientos , catalan : Lliscant , croatian : Kliženje 67 NAIL , persian : nakhon , sanskrit : nakha , german : nagel 68 SILVER , persian : sim , greek : asimi 69 BRANCH (of a tree) , persian : shakheh , sanskrit : shaakha , lithuanian : šaka , hindi : shaaka 70 FACE , persian : chehreh , middle english. : chere , old french : chiere , spanish : cara ..."cheer" in modern english also is from the same root, "be of good cheer," means, "put on a happy face." 71 KEY , persian : cleed or keleed , french : clé , czech : klíč , greek : kleidi , spanish : clave 72 SAINT , avestan persian : espand , romanian : sfânt , sânt , spanish : santo 73 JUNGLE , persian : jangal , sanskrit : jangala (जंगल) which referred to uncultivated land , hindi : jangal , german : dschungel , russian : džúngli 74 ORANGE , persian : nārang , sanskrit नारङ्ग (nāranga), meaning “orange tree" , spanish : naranja 75 NOW , persian : aknun , middle persian : nun , german : nun , latin : nunc , danish : nu , dutch : nu , avestan : nû 76 FAIRY , persian : pari , armenian : p’eri 77 FROM , persian : az or ze , croatian : iz , polish : z , slovenian : iz 78 CHILDREN , persian : bachegan , welsh : bachgen (child , little boy) 79 AM or I AM , persian : hastam , polish : yestem , czech : ysem 80 WE ARE , persian : hastim , spanish : estamos , slovak : sme 81 YOU ARE (sing.) , persian : hasti , croatian : ste , czech : yste , lithuanian : esate , macedonian : ste , polish : yestes , portuguese : esta , slovak : ste 82 CANDLE , persian : kandeel or ghandeel (a box or pot to let a candle shine in it) 83 BURG (castle) , persian : borj (tower) , swedish : borg (castle, tower) , danish : borg 84 BE AS A PREFIX , persian : beravam , begoft , benush, etc...., english : behold , become , beloved, german : bearbeiten ,benutzen , bemerken, etc....notice that BE functions in three languages the same ,i.e., with or without that BE the verbs meaning is almost the same ,and that BE seems to work just for emphasis 85 MURDER , persian : mord = died , german : mord , swedish : mord , scottish : mort dutch : moord 86 EQUAL , persian : yeki (to be one and the same)(yek = one) , sanskrit :eka = one , german : egal 87 MY , old persian : manā .... in persian "man" means "i" and as you will see here in numorous indo-european languages the word for "my" is a derivative of that "man" in persian meaning "i" as follows.... lithuanian : mano , latvian : mans , danish : min , dutch : mijn , estonian : minu , finnish : minun , french : mon , german : meine , icelandic : mina , irish : mo , norvegian : min , swedish : min , 88 WE , persian : ma , kurdish : me , slovenian : me , estonian : me , latvian : mēs , lithuanian : mes , croatian : mi , russian : mee (pronounced sort of moey) 89 MAN (adult male) , persian : mard , old persian : martya , armenian : mard = husband , italian : marito = husband , spanish : marido= husband 90 ORDER (command) , persian : ord , middle persian : ard ,old persian : arta , portuguese : ordem , spanish : orden , scottish gaelic : òrdugh 91 FOOT , persian : pa , old persian : pad , french : pied , greek ; podi or pato , italian : piede , latvian : pēda , portuguese : pé ...pedal and pedicure and etc. are from the same root 92 CHEEK , persian : gouneh , latin : gena , welsh : genou , greek : genus 93 WINTER , persian : zemestan , avestan : zimo , polish : zima , latvian : ziemas , lithuanian : žiema, croatian : zima , czech : zimni , russian : zeemaa 94 STERILE (incapable of producing offspring) , persian : starvan , sanskrit : stari , greek : steiros , gothic : stairo , slovenian : sterilne , 95 SEVEN , persian : haft , avestan : hapta , greek : hepta 96 ROOT (of a plant) , persian : risheh or risha , greek : riza , spanish : raiz , portuguese : raiz 97 BROW (eyebrow) , persian : abru , croatian : obrva , polish : brew , sanskrit : bhrū , old english : brū
Some words that still not sure of their connection , but strongly there is a chance of connection : RUSTIC , persian : rusta (village) , ROB , persian : roba {robber, as delroba (robber of heart, love)},robudan (to rob) PERISH , persian : parish (depressed, shooed away and scattered) , CHAMBER , persian : chambareh
My resources : Google translate , Wiktionary (translations part of every word in wiktionary has translation of each word almost in all languages), also many other sources,also i have discovered many of these words connections by myself...
------------- Mercurybc
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2010 at 22:20
English Urdu grass guhass
nose naak
eye aank
Just for starters. There's a whole bunch of other words i can post if you like
------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2010 at 22:37
As a side note, Albanian, Greek and Armenian are classified as Indo European languages. They are also Indo European isolates, meaning that they are not part of a family tree. For example French, Italian, Portuguese, Spanish.
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Posted By: Raspy
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2010 at 21:37
Interesting I never heard in Hindi the word "Vaha" said, and I don't think Hindi even has a word for he or she. Its mostly a combination of words like "This person", "That man" or "his". Also..
English Hindi Tomato Tomatel Jungle Jungle (Just different pronunciation, and also means wild)
Mostly, I think its just imported words that were traded off between languages.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 17:01
Dear Sander, earlier you wrote;
"Dont post anymore here. I will make a special thread for this issue . Some of this debate will be moved to that one and continue soon."
And soon after Maximus Germanicus was banned! Did you have a part in his banning?
And, maybe I missed it, but could you point out the thread that you were to create to replace this one?
Regards,
------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2010 at 23:13
Originally posted by mercurybc
Some Persian Words Common With Other Indo-European Languages (Cognate Words) : These are my own compilations from various sources or my own research, and still I am adding to them :
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you added Estonian a non-Indo-European language in your list of IE cognates. Though Finnish and Estonian do use the m consonant in first person reference (miinna means me in finnish if a remember correctly) most linguists believe they are borrowed due to their speakers living in a mostly IE speaking continent.
------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: TITAN_
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2012 at 11:56
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri
These are some personal pronouns in English and some other Indo-European languages:
English |
Avestan |
Greek |
Latin |
Persian |
Armenian |
Hindi |
German |
Irish |
Polish |
You |
Yuzh |
Esi |
Tu |
To |
Du |
Tu |
Du |
Tu |
Ty |
He |
Hi |
Avtos |
Is |
Ou |
Na |
Vaha |
Er |
Se |
On |
We |
Vae |
Emeis |
Nos |
Ma |
Menk |
Ham |
Wir |
Muid |
My |
Which one do you think to be more similar to English? |
Let me put it this way: Ego is Greek for "I". Titan is Greek for....Titan and Me is Greek for ....."me".
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Posted By: TITAN_
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2013 at 14:07
As Cryptic stated, Albanian, Greek and Armenian are classified as Indo European languages. I am not 100% sure abour Armenian, but both Albanian and Greek do not belong to any branch like the Italic, Germanic, Slavic and Celtic languages do. They are just two languages on their own.
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Posted By: PakistaniShield
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2013 at 17:21
Originally posted by TITAN_
As Cryptic stated, Albanian, Greek and Armenian are classified as Indo European languages.I am not 100% sure abour Armenian, but both Albanian and Greek do not belong to any branch like the Italic, Germanic, Slavic and Celtic languages do. They are just two languages on their own. |
Armenian is an individual IE language yes. Albanian is claimed to be the last of an Illyrian language family though this claim is disputed. Greek may have belonged to the Hellenic family of languages though it's the last.
------------- http://pakhub.info">
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Posted By: TITAN_
Date Posted: 01-Jun-2013 at 12:45
Greek definitely derives from the Hellenic (=Greek) family of languages and it has been attested since 1500 BC, thanks to Linear B inscriptions.
------------- αἰὲν ἀριστεύειν
Een aristevin
“Ever to Excel“
From Homer's Iliad (8th century BC).
Motto of the University of St Andrews (founded 1410), the Edinburgh Academy (founded 1824) and others.
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