Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?
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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28071
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Topic: Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?
Posted By: Zert
Subject: Kurdish ancestry: what is true, and what isn't?
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2010 at 10:19
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Hi all, I registered to this forum because I'd like to know the answer to the following questions: from what peoples are the Kurds REALLY descended and in what degree? I found this article, written by Mehrdad Izady, but I've heard some people say that it's full of exaggerations and lies. http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/his/orig.html Most people agree that they're the descendants of Medes, but what about the others? Halafians, Ubaidains, Hurrians? (I'm asking mainly because I'm just curious, but partly too because I need it for a school project) Also off-topic question: was Ziryab a Kurd or an Iranian? Thanks in advance.
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Replies:
Posted By: Messopotamian
Date Posted: 18-Jan-2010 at 08:20
| Kurds's ancestors is " Medes,Hurrians,Mittanians" and of course " Carduchians " ( Kardux ) |
Posted By: balabanpasa
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 13:44
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kurds changed 45 ancestors in past 100 years. Europans still cant find a good ancestor for them. They are still searching it politically. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 19-Jan-2010 at 16:15
| Best way to find out is via MtDNA and I once saw somewhere that Kurds were similar to other Iranians like Lurs,Persians,Azari's. I think the main gene pool of Kurds is Medes ancestory as the Culture and Language is Iranian dominated with little others. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2010 at 14:25
i did a y dna test with 20 marker and got haplogroup T . the nicest part is that my tribe is very kurdish looking and having been isolated in mountain and haven't a lot of mix for a very long period of time. second when i made reaserch i found this haplo group in iran is rather rare but found only in high concentration among kurds and lors. the highest concentration in kermanshah and isfahan and shiraz. i would appreciate any answr to the historical origin of this group in iran and iraq.
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 03:26
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28mtDNA - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_(mtDNA ) : "Haplogroup T is thought to have originated in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamia - Mesopotamia and/or the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertile_Crescent - Fertile Crescent (modern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syria - Syria and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey - Turkey ) approximately 10,000-12,000 years ago, and then moved northwest in to Europe and east as far as modern Pakistan and India."
Therefore it won't be strange if it is found in some Iranian people, especially Kurds who live in west of Iran, near Mesopotamia. ------------- 
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Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 04:56
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hi cyrus thanks for the reply. no doubt it is original of iran. what i want to know is that kurd are most mix of majority medes as our language shows and some other ancient civilisations, but which one that gave this haplogroup T. as far as i know sumerian and assyrians had mainly J as HG. i don't know if it was elamit or anshan or kassit which had T HG?it is interesting to know . is there any archological DNA sample from those pre-aryan groups? regards kalhur
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 12:21
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I don't know what your sources are about the DNA of those ancient peoples, I think the ethnic ancestors of Kurds were first the Lullubi or Lulu, their name could be related to the name of Lurs, in the Sumerian language Lulu means "slave", maybe just because their slave workers were mostly from this region, in the Persian and probably Kurdish, Lulu means "bugbear", it is possible that they were one of the first enemies of Iranian-speaking people who entered the Iranian plateau, so they have been considered as a symbol of fear for Iranians! The second ancestors were Gutians, I myself strongly believe that they were really related to Goths of Scandinavia, there are some evidences which prove they were a light-haired people, the next people were Kassites, in all probability they were either an Indo-Iranian people or under the strong influence of an Indo-Iranian culture, like the next ancestors who were Mitannians, however we know they were a Hurrian-speaking people.
About the linguistic ancestors of Kurds, they came in the early first millennium BC and were mainly Cimmerians, Medes and Scythians, I believe the most important language was the Scythian language, Herodotus says that Cyaxares, the greatest king of Media, had ordered the people to learn Scythian language, Diakonoff in "History of Media" says that it was impossible to make a union between different Median tribes without an intertribal language, and for several reason this language just could be Scythian. -------------
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Posted By: Zert
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 13:04
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Thanks for the responses thus far, I'm still following the thread. |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 13:08
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Well, you have to understand that today its impossible for any people to have one original ancestor. Kurds are an Iranic (Aryan) people, which means they are related to other Iranian peoples, but throughout time they have mixed with other peoples as well. Therefore, you cant really say "this person looks Kurdish" or "this person is an ancestor of the Medes" because Kurds do not look a certain way, they look like most others from the region, and Kurds mixed with many different peoples throughout time. But in my opinion, Medes branched out into other groups, one of which probably led to the Kurdish ethnic group we know today. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2010 at 13:46
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for the sure in our days no one is a pure decendent of some special old ethnic group and Y DNA haplogroup only shows paternal line and can't be very relaiable to point out one or two ethnical group as origin of a nation or ethnic group, because we all have maternal DNA haplogroup too and kurd are not a homogen ethnical group neither as the rest of people in iran and the rest of middle east. today with the help of DNA technic it is maybe possible to track the ancestory back . about looking kurd . yes there are some typical regional facial types. for exemple swedish are often blond with blue or green eyes and have some facial resemblane and majority of kurds in kermanshah province look in their own way. swedishs even they look much more uniform still share different happlo groups. 22-27% R1a1.(aryan) nearly as much hg I(original european) and 30 % R1b(celtic) and som HG N.(asian finn ugric) dependig to north -south. higher in north and lower in south. the idea of scandinavien origin is at least swedish lingustically very near persian and english indicating some deep relation. I am living in Sweden and i can finds loads of words with the same origin like Body parts
Persian swedish english Lab läpp(lep) lip Bosse pussa kiss Abroo ogonbrun eyebrow Kale skalle skull Dandan tand
dent Chane hache chin Naf
navel
belly button Objects Dar dor
door Hasar hus
house Tagh tak roof Gaw ko
cow Band
(nakh)
band(rep)
Goraz gris
porc boar Ghaz gås
goose Nam namn name Mard(mand) man man Bradar bror brother Dokhtar dotter daughter Pedar fader father Madar moder mother Astar (asb) häst horse Stabl stall stable Famil familj family Rah väg (simmilar to way) road Rast rätt right Mah mån moon Setare stjärna star Div djävul devel Behatr bättre better Tandar(raad) Dunder( åska ) thunder Pari älv fairy Robah räv fox Bordan bära bearing Mess(metal) messing(copper alloy) copper Ahan järn iron Moosh mus
mouse Mian mellan
between Mor(morche) Gerd(jerd) (settelement) gård
yard |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 04:48
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There are certainly some similar words between Persian and Swedish languages and also other Iranian and Germanic languages, please look at this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27994 - A Possible Iranian Migration from Scandinavia , some similar words are very important, for example about the word Rook (a chess piece), as you read here: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=rook&searchmode=none - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=rook&searchmode=none it has certainly a Persian origin, of course it says "of unknown meaning" but my Persian dictionary says that this word means "Stone Column" and the massive stone columns of Persepolis and other ancient Persian sites, could be the symbol of them.
What could be the original one? Maybe Rauk: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rauk - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rauk
A rauk (Swedish plural: raukar) is a stone column created by natural erosion. Rauks can be found mainly on the islands of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotland - Gotland and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%A5r%C3%B6 - Fårö but also on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96land - Öland . Many rauks have been eroded into unusual shapes.
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Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 06:16
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there was an anthropolg from norway the late thor heyrdahl which beleived that some of old viking saga had pointed out azerbaijan as origin land of vikings. he had done a lot of research about that.it is for the sure some conection to the old iran mainly to parths or sarmatians. i can add to the words above a load of others . there are so many word which are the same. like persian swedish ostan stad bordj borg mainly the basic words like body parts and housing and animals both domestic and wild. the world is little we are all parts of human race and surely share the same origin. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 08:54
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They were the same poeple who worshipped Goda (Persian Khoda, English God), their leaders were Kianig (Persian Kian, English King) and their holiest festival was Yulta (Persian Yalda, English Yuletide), different from Indian Deva or Latin Deus worshippers, they were their Div/Devil, Indian Yama, the lord of death was Old Norse Ymir and Avestan Yima, the first being who was nourished by a cow, killed by Devil and finally his body became different parts of the earth. -------------
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 09:53
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Back to the topic, if we want to consider all possible theories about the origin of Kurds, it can be said they were originaly a Celtic people, in fact "Kurd" could be just the Iranian form of "Kelt" ("l" to "r" and "t" to "d" are normal sound changes in the Iranian languages), as I mentioned in this thread http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28028 - Statue Menhirs, Prehistoric Western Europe , the original name of Celts was "Khaldi" or "Khalti", and almost the same people with the same name lived in the northwest of Iran and Asia Minor, like Galatians who were certainly a Celtic people, of course it is mostly believed that Armenians are the descendants of Khaldians! -------------
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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 10:20
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Celts? Really, I highly doubt that. Kurds have their origins in Central Asia and the Near East, like other Iranian peoples. Throughout the centuries, Iranian peoples mixed with other ethnic groups, Iranic and non-Iranic, to form the Kurdish ethnic group, who were perhaps originally Medes. I believe that Medes seperated into two groups, forming Kurds and Azari's, with Azari's being the main descendants, as evidence by the Ancient Azari language and Islamic and non-Islamic sources before their Turkification linguistically. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2010 at 10:25
| for the sure there are some strong conection only by studying the dances and even instruments . the sack-pipe still used in british islands and is still around in khuzestan and some parts of lurestan and kurdestan too we can see the obvious simmilarity. i beleive the separation of celts and germans from old iranian people may occured at the time of first wave of indo-european migration to europe. the festival of yalda is called JUL(yul) in sweden and was one of highest fetivities in scandinavia before christianity. now it is celebrated as christmas , but still the name is same (jul) J is prononounced Y in swedish. the fest of nowroz has been known as (vårdagsjämning) here. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Jan-2010 at 17:11
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I would certainly like someone who is proficient in language to also contribute another line or so, comparing the above list, to German (high and low), Dutch, Flemish, Freislander, Irish, and old / middle English, and Occitan, etc.?
Is that possible? And a great example from the above list is; Pari (or possibly Phari?), thus Fari! equals "Alv", or more correctly in English, "Elve", and thus "fairy/elve/elf! Quite impossible unless all are related, and in my opinion, not seperated for hundreds or a thousand years or more, but more like 100 to 300 at the most! I think that any seperation of over 300 years would lead to more complicated relationships, if any at all! It is much like the word for "Fox", is in Persian "robah!", which most English speakers will instantly recognize as "robber!", which is just what a Fox is known to do! For he is "sly!", and "cunning", etc., which are a couple of other words that might be somewhat similar? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 28-Jan-2010 at 00:19
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It won't be wrong to find the original meaning of the Persian words by comparing with English and other Germanic words, "robah" can certainly mean "robber" in Persian, from the Persian verb "robudan" (to rob). -------------
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Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 12:21
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Well certenly kurds have many ancesters, for example its quite clear that kurds like iranians are aryan, these are some photos of typical kurds.. http://www.flickr.com/photos/44738189@N08/ Kurds are very similar to today iranians.. as I can speak kurdish, I can comftobly say that I can also speak half of the iranian language as it is very similar.. kurds are very ancient people, and thus its not clear on one family tree as kurds of today were not allways called kurds, we are infact a mixture of many tribes in the region that were relatives.. there are the kermanjis which are 100% of the medians as it has been proven to be very similar.. and the soranis along with 20-30 more tribes with diffrent luanguages who today all condiser themselfs kurds.. But don't be mistaken kurds are not turks or arabs.. turks moved to the region recently and we along with the iranians have been here longer.. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 12:33
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As I have said in some earlier post, the photos of mostly children seen at; %20 - http://www.flickr.com/photos/44738189@N08/ Would not seem out of place in either Scotland, Spain, Germany, Ireland, Nova Scotia, Georgia (USA), Texas, Kansas, etc.!
But, of course, there seems no doubt that the photographer(s) were looking for just such subjects! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2010 at 12:37
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opuslola, you misunderstood what I said, while that be the case, what I tried to get across is that kurds are mixed, for example.. I myself am europen looking but with dark hair.. my unqle has blue eyes, while my auntie is blonde.. there are lots of genes in a typical kurdish family, and I can assure you atleast 40% of kurds are blonde with 70% being white. am not trieng to prove anything, becuase this is marely colour of skin and it has not gained us any support from the western countries.
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Posted By: Azadi
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2010 at 07:56
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Selam bra Zert, What makes this question hard to answer is the massive oppression and assimilation, the ethnic cleansing, of us Kurds in, generally speaking, all parts of Kurdistan. But, in spite of their attempts to assimilate us Kurds into the major ethnic groups of our neighbours, 40 million (hard to find the accurate number, because of the suppresion) of us still retain our own customs and language, which consists of many groups (among some of the 50 biggest are Herkî, Zêbarî, Mizorî, Doskî, Sindî, Herwarî, Herwamî, Babanî, Jafî and Berzencî) who speak different, but a related language - the Kurdish language, which consists of 12 dialects of the northwestern subgroup of the Indo-Iranian branch. (The language tree, nothing to do with todays "Iran" and "Iranians" - therefore we Kurds are differentiated by our language, our tribal affiliation, geographic regions, the treatment of the sexes - and our various religions - Sunni, Shi'a, Shi'ite Alevi, Sufi, Yazidi, Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian +). But let me cut to the case, brother, our history can be identified back to 1000 B.C. (by the ancient Assyrians - land of the Kurti) and 3000 B.C (by the ancient Sumerians - Karda, inhabitet by the Qurtiye), but the Kurds, as a people, have existed several millenias before that. The Kurds could date back to 6000 - 5800 B.C, with the Halaaf culture - who lived in the same area which Kurdistan lies today. A culture which was closely followed by the Ubid culture (which came from Mesopotamia) - lasted until 4300 B.C, when it got replaced by the Hurrian culture. The Hurrian culture (which had a language similar to modern Chechen - Caucasian) ruled the area known today as Kurdistan, until they too got replaced by the Medes in 600 B.C. In 6th century B.C. the Carduchians (near Lake Van) were historically documented - they were, from what I know, decenders of the Medes who worshipped a Hurrian God of the sky, Tishub - this showed the continuation of the Hurrian culture to this date. So while the Indo-Iranians have influenced our culture, the Kurdish culture, we still continue to hold on to our Hurrian customs and beliefs. Also the Mitani, Hattite and Kassite kingdoms asserted themselves into the Hurrian areas after 2000 B.C. (but just because the leaders of these cultures were Indo-Europeans, doesn't mean the population and people under their command was). I would also add that even today, in the 21. Century, Turks, Persians and Arabs take us as a subgroup of themself, this being said - as long as this backwards mentality dominates, we as Kurds will not be able to do enough research on our past, history - and therefore nationalistic forumusers, like fx. "balabanpasa" (kemalist, if I'm correct ? sorry, if I'm incorrect), will write and spread lies about our (already) thin-documented past. A.
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Posted By: Zert
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2010 at 09:08
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Alright, thank you all for your replies. Especially the above one has a lot of information. Extra question, how can it then be explained that Kurds and Jews (Israelis) seem to be so closely related? http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts - http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1626606/posts |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2010 at 13:31
Very extensive post but I must disagree on several points.
Other than in Turkey and Iraq, I dont believe there is any ethnic cleansing going on in Syria or Iran. I'm not too sure about Syria, I may be wrong, but I know for a fact that there is no ethnic cleansing going on in Iran. Iranians have always been more tolerant of the various groups when compared to their neighbors. This is because Iran has always been a diverse country and from the beginning this diversity was accepted. With that said, the dictatorial theocratic regime in Tehran is oppressive, and oppresses all ethnic groups because it is a religious and not an ethnic based government. Remember, Khamenei is Azari, NOT Persia, and Mousavi, the unofficial leading figure of the Green Revolution is Azari, not Persian. So the Iranian people in general are VERY tolerant, Persians get a bad rap because it is PERCEIVED that they are running the show, which is in fact incorrect. This is supported in that there are provinces in Iran with majority Persian populations that are actually POORER than provinces where minorities make the majority.
Again, I would like to point out that although the Iranian government is oppressive, it is more tolerant to ethnic groups within the country when compared to its neighbors. Kurdish culture and language are not under attack in Iran. Also, I'm glad you pointed out that being "Iranian" (as in of the Aryan branch of Indo-Europeans), should not be confused with being of the Iranian nationality, which includes Arabs, Africans, Turkomans, etc... Kurds are an Iranian peoples, like Persians, Balouchi's, Talyshi's, etc... but you'd be surprised at the amount of cultural similarities that exists between these different peoples. Linguistically the differences are greater (although the languages have the same roots and certain basic similarities) but culturally we share many major things.
Well, now this gets a bit merky... There were certainly native peoples who inhabited the region before the arrival of Indo-Europeans but these people were NOT Kurds. Kurds, as we know them today, probably formed 1000 years ago, although they certainly have ancestory that dates further back. For example, the Elamites were not Persian, but they certainly mixed with Persians later on, but to claim that they were Persians would be ludicrous!
Certainly in Turkey this is true, but Arabs and Persians do NOT make the claim that Kurds are subgroups of themselves. Persians may stress that we are related, but Persians would never make that claim, because its simply absurd. Believe, Persians know about and respect the Kurdish identity. Hell, Iran is the only country which even recognizes that a Kurdistan exists. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2010 at 16:39
DNA test was done on Kurds who live in Isreal or near Jews due to mixing. Kurds are mainly http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples#Genetics - related to Iranians and and have genetic ties to people who live close by due to mixing or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdification - kurdification . Kurds don't look like Jews, I am from Northern Kurdistan (Malatya Turkey) and all the Kurds I have met and seen resemble Azaris,Lurs and Persians, where as most Jews resemble Arabs in Jordan and Syria. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2010 at 17:10
I also do not understand this hate that some Kurds have towards Persians. I always try to explain that Iran is not even ruled by Persians, it mainly ruled by Azari Turks. Iran has not been fully run by Persians since the Sassanids. Most of the bad treatment that Kurds have recieved from Iran was Post-Islamic era which was ruled by Arabs early on then the Mongols came then the Turks. Kurds share so much in common with Persians, that Kurds even deny it. I disagree with Kurds on this forum who say Persian and Kurdish language are not that similar, then why do I understand so many words when a persian speaks? More then a English speaker can understand German or a German speak can understand Danish(who are neighbours). I believe the difference between Kurdish and Persian language is that of Spanish and Portuages. |
Posted By: Messopotamian
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 05:46
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Iranian Azaris not have Turkic origin ( i think ). They diffrent with other Azaris(northern Azeri ) |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 06:38
I am aware of that but they Identify themselves as Turks have been for hundreds of years, since been Turkified. So they are not Persians, Kurds claim they are Turkified Medes, which would be Ironic. |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 10:05
Yes. Arrani's (people from the Republic of Azerbaijan, formerly known as Arran and other names by Iranians and Westerners) are ethnically different from Azari's (from Azarbaijan, Iran). Arrani's are caucasian, whereas Azari's are Iranic, however, they are related culturally, religiously, and linguistically are are both referred to as Azeri's. |
Posted By: Azadi
Date Posted: 08-Feb-2010 at 14:48
Explanation of 'ethnic cleansing': Ethnic cleansing is a euphemism referring to the persecution through imprisonment, expulsion, or killing of members of an ethnic minority by a majority to achieve ethnic homogeneity in majority-controlled territory. The denial of the Kurdish language and culture, not to speak of our existence, in East-Kurdistan, Irani-Kurdistan, began in 1925 under the rule of the Pahlavi Dynasti - Reza Shah. This went from denial of Kurdish customs and history, to - in 19th century - total denial of the Kurdish identity, after the administrational and political centralization was completed. I'm not saying this was directed at Kurds only, because the first Pahlavi - Reza Shah - suppressed all languages - both education and written material, except in Farsi. For Gods sake, people got persecuted because they committed the crime of speaking and writing in their illegal language. National cloths were also forbidden for some time. As a result, in the beginning of the 20. century Kurdish national movements rose, and the too well known "rebellion and suppression" formed the modern Kurdish community. The sovjet-backed Mahabad Republic was formed in this period, but in December 1946 - almost a year later after the foundation - the Republic was crushed. Kurdish printing press got shut down, education in the Kurdish language got banned and each and every Kurdish book the Army found was burned. Soon after the second Pahlavi hanged the leaders. This was the past. The Kurds' present situation is... well not that harsh, and definitely not that primitive - national oppression under the 'new' Shi'ite Islamic fundamentalism exists through. First, I would like to point out something important. The Ayatollas and Mullas had a central role in the 1979 Revolution (especially politically - turned into an Islamic Revolution), but the clergy held no key position in politics (and still don't) in Kurdistan, therefore the movement in Kurdistan was in contrast with the so-called Islamic Revolution. Fx. the referendum in 1979 (resulted in founding of the Islamic state) was boycotted by the Kurdish community, so we could say that the Revolution didn't take place in East-Kurdistan - this mentality changed when Agha Khomeini some months after his coup began his all-out assailment on the Kurds. From this point on the most prominent Kurdish party in East-Kurdistan (PDKI) rose up again - Qazi Muhammed, the president of Mahabad Republic was the founder. After the revolution the state startet the discrimination of the Kurds. Fx. as a result of East-Kurdistan being non-industrialization area (state policy) the highest rate for unemployment and drug-related prisoners were from this area - an area where drugs were TOTALLY unheard of just 15 years ago! (I know this from personal experience also, son of pêşmergeleader). To sum up some of the restrictions for us Kurds in East: We don't get high position, in terms of employment. We are not present in history books (or falsified). We don't learn our language in official schools. We don't have ANY form for self-rule (something the Kurds in South-Kurdistan had, even with Saddam Hussein in power...). We are politically oppressed. We are not allowed to have independent parties. We are not allowed to have independent newspapers (some magazines and books do actually get published, heavily censored though). Execution, torture and murder (mafia-like) of political and non-political persons is remarkably widespread in East, this does not apply to the rest of Iran - I'm not claiming this doesn't exist in the rest of the country, though. Assassination of political figures carried out by the Irani government even exists outside the country - Dr. Abdul Rahman Ghassemlou yê nemir. Ethnic cleansing ? First, I did say "generally speaking", but there was some. You can find decent groups of Kurds in Kerman, Baluchestan and Fars. And as of 1987 three-houndred-fifty-thousand Kurds lived north-Khorasaan - if this wasn't a direct result of Irans 17. century' forcible removal of the Kurds, I do not know what to believe anymore. Now lets not be so negative... These last years, the last decade generally, East-Kurdistan has blossomed both politically and culturally - this can also be said about many parts of Iran. The literary and political elite were the only ones who could read and write in Kurdish, this was the case 2-3 decades ago. Since the Kurdish language is forbidden in official education, Kurdish parents send their children to private classes - 10 years ago stuff like this was unheard of - therefore reading and writing in the Kurdish language is very common among the new generations today. Circles, societies, seminars and meeting have sprung up like Newroz/Nowruz! Democratic values, human rights, individual, cultural and social values, political pluralism, equal rights between the sexes are ideas which have found their ways to the new generations minds in Kurdistan and Iran. With Kurds, Persians, Azaris, Baluchis, Arabs and Turksmens within it's borders Iran could suit being a federate system. Perhaps be the first one in the Middle-East! But since no necessary steps have been taken in this direction, the best solution for the Kurds right now is a free Kurdistan. The suppression of the Kurds in West-Kurdistan is another sad, but very covert history, this might explain why you never have heard about it. There are almost 2 million Kurds in West-Kurdistan, whereof 300.000 (these kind of numbers tend to be lower than in the reality, so the exact amount is probably much higher) got stripped of their citizenship. Also because Damascus claimed that the ancestors of the Kurds in this region didn't have valid Ottoman registration records before 1920 - many of these 2 million Kurds didn't get identification cards, something you all surely know the importance of (without it you get NO education, NO healthcare and probably NO job). When Kurds with ID cards get treated worse than animals, I wonder how good stateless persons get treated. We could say, in official terms, they did not exist. This was before the Ba'athist Haffez al-Assad, and later his son and current Syrian president Bashar al-Assad, became president. So when they got the power, the situation changed dramaticly. Syrian Ba'athists began a program of 'Arabization' - about on the same time as Saddam Hussein launched his 'Arabization' and 'Anfal'-campaign. This Syrian Ba'athi 'Arabization'-program replaced Kurdish names, with Arabic ones. From this time on NO children, NO city, NO business, NO building could have a Kurdish (or Kurdish-influenced name). Also hundreds of villages (don't know exact number) got replaced, and the villagers got removed south-west. The media uses the term "buried alive", something I think resembles the reality these poor people struggle with each and every day - I personally feel extremely depressed when I think about this particular part of Kurdistan, not only because of Saladin and his role in Syria. Need more ?
I do not doubt one moment at the fact that Kurds share some of the same cultural and social values as Persians. This is something I would never deny, and something I'm very proud of. But, linguistically - as you've pointed out - there are more than just small differences.
I personally think the Medes are our ancestors, but nothing is sure, therefore I put the whole history of the area - because like you said many different nations mixed with each other, and made the nations we see today. This means fx. Mitanis could be the ancestors for many different groups of people, and not reserved to one group only.
Turkey is to laugh at, they even adopted Newroz as their spring-holiday... Turkish archaeologists and scientists proved with DNA that it actually was an ancient Turkic day of celebration, alongside some Aztec and Inca traditions. And for your information, Arabs have actually tried to take the Ayybid-dynasty and several other Kurdish dynasties as Arabic – since they faught for Islam, and didn't have a dream for Kurdistan. I wouldn't say Iran recognizes Kurdistan and respects Kurdish identity, but I'm sorry for my bald statement of saying Persians take Kurds as a subgroup of themself. That just came out wrong. Hope you understand. A.
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 08:07
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Ince wrote;
"Kurds don't look like Jews, I am from Northern Kurdistan (Malatya Turkey) and all the Kurds I have met and seen resemble Azaris,Lurs and Persians, where as most Jews resemble Arabs in Jordan and Syria." Ince, have you ever been in Israel? If not then your words concerning "look like" may not be correct, after all the largest percentage of Jews in Israel have for the most part, been from Central and Eastern Europe, E.g. Russia (former USSR), Poland, Hungary, etc., and this group is alleged to have been the descendants of a tribe that converted to Judaism in Russia! Thus, it seems it would be hard for them to resemble an Arabian? But, those Jews from Western Europe and N. Africa, would more likely to have Arabic genes, and thus more likely resemble their Arabic ancestors! Sephardic (Spain and N. Africa) and Ashkenazi (Russian steppes?) Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 09:37
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Thanks for the extensive reply but there are some points with which I still have to disagree. Firstly, I would like to say that I do not think you are looking at the oppression thats going on in Iran as a whole, and are simply making yourself believe that Kurds are being specifically targeted. Keep in mind that the Iranian government is a NON-ETHNIC based SHIA THEOCRATIC GOVERNMENT which stresses religion over anything else.
Yes, that is the past, but we are talking about the present. Reza Shah was simply following the path of Ataturk to what he believed would modernize the country. Was he right? No.
There is a very simply answer to this question: Iran is ruled by a SHIA THEOCRATIC government. The vast majority of Kurds are SUNNI Muslims, which means they have no place in a SHIA government.
First of all, Drugs (opium) have always been present in Iran, and for many centuries it was socially acceptable and part of the culture. So you are telling me that there were no drugs at all in Eastern Iran?  With regards to industrialization: Iran is NOT an industrialized country. Other than Tehran, there is no province in Iran which can be considered industrialized. Iran is still a poor developing country under an enormous amount of sanctions, it CANNOT provide for its people, whether Kurds, Persians, Azari's, Balouchi's, etc... Furthermore, the difference in regional development is a historical phenomenon more than anything else. The major cities of Iran historically for the past few centuries have been Tabriz and Isfahan, with Tehran being a new comer. That is why the area's around these three cities tend to be more economically prosperous than say Shiraz, Mashad, or Sanandaj. And like I said before, there are provinces in Iran with Majority Persian populations that are POORER than provinces in Iran with majority minority populations.
In terms of general employment or employment in the government? In terms of employment, I know for a fact that that is not true, because my cousin's (who lives in Iran) best friend is Kurdish and his dad owns a factory...needless to say they are far from poor or deprived. In terms of employment with the government, Sunni's may be deprived, but Shia Kurds hold positions, especially provincial positions.
Neither are Persians  The Islamic Republic wants to exclude Iran's pre-Islamic history from textbooks and they have done it, very successfully. Historical manipulation is a tactic used by all dictatorships, it has nothing to do with picking on Kurds.
Not true. This is what the UNHCR says:
source: http://www.unhchr.ch/tbs/doc.nsf/%28Symbol%29/CERD.C.63.CO.6.En?Opendocument
NO ONE in Iran has self rule, because Iran is a DICTATORSHIP and has a CENTRALIZED government policy. The Kurds in Iraq had autonomy because of Iranian and later UN support, which prevented Saddam from suppressing them or invading their territory.
So is EVERYONE.
NO ONE is allowed to have independent parties.
NO ONE is allowed to have independent newspapers and EVERYONES publications get vetted by the government and are censored. With that said:
WHAT? Does not apply to the rest of Iran? HAVE YOU BEEN LIVING UNDER A ROCK FOR THE PAST 8 MONTHS? I guarantee you that there are more Persian and Azari political prisoners in Iran than there are Kurds.
Again, that is the past and has nothing to do with whats going on now.
Yes, this awakening is because of the reform movement and hopefully the Green Revolution will overthrow these barbarians once and for all!
Yes, federalism is the best solution, not only in Iran, but everywhere. However, this government will never do anything good for Iran, so dont expect them to.
Yes, I agree, I think the Medes mixed with other groups which eventually formed the Kurdish ethnic group. --------------------------------------- With all this said, I AM NOT DEFENDING THE MONSTERS THAT RUN IRAN. I am simply trying to get rid of some of the over exaggerated misconceptions that many minorities have (and I'm not blaming them, this is natural when suppression occurs, hell, Persians and Azari's say a lot of crazy things about the Mullahs too, a lot of which isnt true) But here are somethings to keep in mind: 1) Iran is ruled by SHIA clergy 2) Iran is a DICTATORSHIP 3) Iran is being ruled by a MINORITY (Khamenei is Azari) 4) Political and cultural suppression is widespread and applies to every ethnic group in Iran 5) Nothing will ever change under this government, we must get rid of it. |
Posted By: Messopotamian
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2010 at 06:53
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Someone says " Abraham was Kurds,He's origin Suleymaniya / Iraq ( HHK )
:D
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2010 at 18:41
I recently found this and here a quote from the article. it explains the point I was making earlyer. "I suspect that the Jews would be genetically closer to peoples who spoke North Semitic languages such as Assyrians, rather than group (a) Arabs. I suspect that the Kurds reported by Jaqui White (presumably with non U-5 gene clusters) are those Assyrians who were Iranicized after the ascension of the Mede and later Achaemenid Empires. Also, many Jews were assimilated into Iranian culture, especially in Kurdistan. My wife, who is Kurdish, showed me many Jewish shrines in Iranian Kurdistan and west Iran, including the tomb of Esther and Mordechai in Hamedan" http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=5927 - http://cgi.stanford.edu/group/wais/cgi-bin/?p=5927 |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2010 at 19:58
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I found this on the Genetic testing on the Kurds. From what I can read, Kurds of Turkey and Iran are close to north and central Iranians. Kurds from Turkey also seem to be close to their Turkish neighbours. http://www.eva.mpg.de/ - http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Kurds.pdf After looking at this, I can see that Kurds are genetically very close to Iranians in iran. Also I noticed that haplogroup J1(Arab) is absent among Anatolian Kurds and West Iranian Kurds. So what do you guys think this says about the Origin of the Kurds? |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2010 at 12:59
| Well, all Iranian peoples are genetically related to each other because we have the same origins. Turks in Turkey are Turkified Anatolians, Iranics, Caucasians, Greeks, Armenians, etc... |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2010 at 15:34
That really dents a hole in the Ultra-Nationalists Kurds who claim they are not related to Persians. Also it proves that Kurds are mainly Iranic stock. Where some claim Kurds are a Mixture of natives that lived their and are not Iranian. Well that could be said for everyone in Iran as Kurds,Persians Lurs,Balouch,Azari's have been intermixing for thousands of years with sourounding neighbours. For example Persians in Iran are closer to Kurds then they are to their fellow Persian speaking Tajiks. Does that make Tajiks less Persian? No, their culture and language is Persian. Also Houplegroup R2(M124) is found in Kurds and Iranians from Iran, but it is absent in Anatolian Turks. Houplegroup R2(M124), is mainly found in India, Pakistan and southern Central Asia. Which proves that intermixing has been going on. Also it could have been from Elamites? |
Posted By: Azadi
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2010 at 06:45
I've to clear up something, when I say we, or even Kurds as a whole, I mean the oppressed people in general. Whether it's Kurds, Balochis, Azeri, Persians... Some of my best friends here in Norway are Persians and Azeri, so I know very well what you're talking about, but I apologize if you thought something else.
Ofcourse there are drugs in Eastern Iran.
Both actually, but when I say 'Kurd' I mean a person who is fighting for a free Kurdistan, though diplomacy or though other means. Just take my family for example, on my fathers side we have several pêşmerge and political activists, while on my mothers side they all are business men and students, not actually fighting for autonomy. The economical differences are therefor enormous, but in terms of being "Kurdish" the pêşmerge lay above all - and are respected more than everyone else, by Kurds everywhere. This being said, I think the best friend of your cousin is like my mothers family - because they too have their own shops and even trademarks, not only in Iran, but Dubai as well. And since they do not start asking and debating over a free Kurdistan, they're for the most of the time left alone.
In theory you're correct, but this is not the case.
Note that I said East, not Kurds alone, but the same area which most Azeri also live. -------------
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2010 at 18:42
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Whilst I might be called an infidel outsider, perhaps that is what is needed in the area of your world or former world(s)?
At the risk of being banned, I would just like to postulate a few things! If indeed any of your seperate groups have occupied the same space in time for so many years, just why are all of you so occupied with "my group is better than your group?" And as a result there is always "hate", "hate", etc.! If all of you guys consider that the currently accepted history is correct then all of you and your "groups" will have been considered to have basically occupied for over 1,000 years! Hey guys, in that many years even Lions and Lambs can learn to sleep together! But, none of you "higher life forms" can learn to do the same! But, if you can accept that those events that supposedly happened according to our currently accepted time-line, was wrong, then other things can happen. For example, just look at the problems that have occured in the Balkans in the last 30 or so years? Suddenly neighbors who had never had a cross word, began to kill one another! And, just what started it? Can any of you tell us? Truth be said, the Balkans and especially the former Yugoslavia, were and have been, an artifical creation dictated by the last World War! Actions and resettlements over the period of 1919 to 1949 created a mixture of religions and sects, etc., which had animosities against each other that has smoldered for many years, and the ramifications only came to a "boil" after the fall of Joseph Broz and the end of the "Wall!" Suddenly "democracy", hit the area and all hell broke loose! You can also describe our modern so called states of Iraq, and Iran, and other states now existing upon the borders of the above states, closely resemble the Balkans! But, as we know the Balkans are only a part of the world that had massive movements of peoples and religions in the last 700 or less years! But, on the other hand, the nations of Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, and the former Soviet border states, besides the artifical boundaries enforced upon this area from 1850 to 1960 CE, are relatively free from massive movements of peoples, and religious sides, since ancient times! For example look at the Biblical and Assyrian, and Persian, etc. times when massive deportations of peoples reportedly took place! Accordingly, it seems, that our modern and accepted history, conceeds that hundreds of thousands and possibly millions of people were forceably removed from their homelands and forceably resettled hundreds or more miles away, as the whim of the ruler desired! Can we really accept that? But, it seems it has been accepted for a few hundred years or better! And, it seems, most of these massive deportations happened in the area we know call "Before Christ!" Gee, that means, that at the latest, those peoples have been living together for at the least over 2,000 years! It seems to me, that any people living within the same area for at least 2,000 years might well be able to "live together?" But, it seems I am wrong? But, what if it was not 2,000 plus years? Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2010 at 17:49
My 2 dirham's worth:
The Carduchi would have been the most direct ancestor, I believe. The name just says it all, doesn't it?
Corduene (a.k.a. Gorduene, Cordyene, Cardyene, Carduene, Gordyene, Gordyaea, Korduene, Korchayk, Gordian) was an ancient region located in northern Mesopotamia. present-day southeastern Turkey.
According to the 1911 Encyclopaedia Britannica Gordyene is the ancient name of the region of Bohtan (now Sirnak Province). It is mentioned as Beth Qardu in Syriac sources and is described as a small vassal state between Armenia and Persia in the mountainous area south of Lake Van in modern Turkey. Corduene must also be sought on the left bank of the Tigris.
It has been cited as the country of the Carduchians, a fertile mountainous district, rich in pasturage. The three principalities of Corduene, Moxoene and Zabdicene are referred to as Carduchian dynasties by Toumanoff. The Kingdom of Gordyene emerged from the declining Seleucid Empire and for most of its history, it was a province of the Roman Empire. and acknowledged the sovereignity of Rome. From 189 to 90 BC it enjoyed a period of independence.
The people of Gorduene were known to have worshipped Teshub, the Sky God of the Hurrians.
According to Arshak Safrastian, the Medes and Scythians mentioned in classical Greek literature existed only as preconceived notions. Equating the Carduchi with the Gutians, he adds that the moment the Ten Thousand began to skirt the lower slopes of the Hamrin Mountains, they were in contact with the tribes of Gutium which are presented here as Medes or Scythians.
Targum, a Jewish source of the Talmudic period, consistently understood Ararat to be located in Gorduene and not in Armenia. This region is usually identified as the landing site in the Huge Deluge mythology. While according to Aggadah, Noah landed in Korduene in Armenia. Berossus was also of the opinion that Xisthros landed with his ship in Korduene. Josephus cited the evidence of Berossus as proof that the Big Flood story was not a myth and also mentioned that the remains of the ark were still visible in the distric of Carron, presumably identified with Korduene. ------------- History makes everything. Everything is history in the making. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 17:30
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Once upon a time there was a huge country called IRAN. this country was from china and india to caucasus in north .this country was home to many different iranian peoples mainly pers, median(kurd and lurs) and all other lesser iranian and non iranian people in between. in our days when in europe many different nations with different ethnical group and languages(slavs, latins, germans,scandinavians and more) have build EC to have a larger more economical powerful community without borders , then we are seeking to see how different is a kurd from a fars or a lur from a kurd  . Romans had a good preverb divide and govern.
some where i saw on internet that lurs want have their own state too and naturally ballochs too. i vote for free republic of qazvin LOOOL. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 17:58
The problem I have with the Carduchia is that it does not explain the Linguastic similarties between Kurdish and the other Iranian langauges like Modern Persian,Lur and Balouchi who live on the other side of Iran and Kurds share the most linguastic similarties with. The Carduchia were most of the time under Roman and Byzantine rule. Also it was small and did not comprise all the places that Kurds live like in West of Iran. Even after the Islamic invasion most of the time most Kurds were not under Iranian control. Kurds of Anatolia and Northern Iraq have for the most of the 1000 years been under Ottoman and Arab control. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 18:32
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Also Cyrtii should be included as well as the name sounds more like the
way Kurds prounounce it Kurdi. http://www.iranica.com/articles/iran-v2-peoples-pre-islamic "The Cyrtii (see CYRTIANS; Str., 11.13.3, 15.3.1) are called one of the Persian tribes by Strabo (see above) and are not labeled as predatory. The putative ancestors of the Kurds and Lurs, as such they would belong to the Aryan-speaking category. They may already have been well distributed in the Zagros from Persia into Media, though not yet as far as Gordyene above the upper Tigris or Azerbaijan (Media Atropatene). The Kurds would be firmly ensconced as a major people of the Zagros by the end of the Sasanian period, when they formed part of the forces opposing the Arab invaders." |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 19:30
 its complicated. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Apr-2010 at 19:41
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TGS, in your great excellency, why don't you explain everything to the others?
It would, of course, be a magnamious act! My regards, as always, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Zert
Date Posted: 10-Apr-2010 at 13:54
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As you're discussing the Carduchi, what do you think of this? I stumbled on this site when trying to find some more about Kurdish mythology (something of which I couldn't find a whole lot) http://hevallo.blogspot.com/2008/04/in-memory-of-halil-uysal-kurdish.html In the article, they say that it's probably remains from the Carduchi, but how does it look to you? (it hasn't been verified by historians/archaeologists) Also 2 other things: An older video, about a supposed Median king, I'm no expert, but that looks quite fake, what do you think? http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2008/11/mummy-king-of-ancient-kurdistan.html Is there any plausibility in an Elamite-Kurdish connection? http://landofkarda.blogspot.com/2008/10/elamite-vs-ezidi-scripts.html |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2010 at 18:32
The culture could of been their long before the existence of the Carduchi. As many dynastys have come and gone before the Medes arrived. The Carduchi were most likely absorbed into the current groups that are called Kurds. When the Carduchi existed, their were Kurds in the Kermanshah provance as well. The thing is not much is known about Kurdish history before the Arab Invasion. Today most likely Kurds are a collection of Iranian tribes that came together and the mordern Kurds were born. On linguastic Gorani and Zazaki is a different langauge to Kurmanji and Sorani. Also according to linguastic experts, Kurmanji and Sorani lean towards Persian as well which Gorania and Zazaki don't, which means at one time Kurds were much closer to Persians.
I've seen that before, it looks fake no doubt.
I do not think Kurds have any relations with the Elamites. Most likely Kurds who live near the areas that the Elamite lived, will no doubt have part ancestory of Elamites. Plus the Elamites were dark skinned like Dravidians, this can be seen on reliefs at Darius Palace in Susa. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2010 at 12:15
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As concerns the last words of "Ince" above, I have looked at some photos of the reliefs at the Palace of Darius at Susa, and I do not really note any "dravadian" features!
See at; http://www.biblelandpictures.com/gallery/gallery.asp?action=browse&categoryid=56&whichpage=4 You can see what the camera sees! I may see men with dark faces, but these men lived in what was basically a high desert area! The lived possibly in tents most of the time, and they were exposed to the sun more than the high-born! Certainly, even if the tinting given to the exposed reliefs today are exactly how they were originally rendered, is a small but important part! So, if I am correct, from what source do you determine that the "Elamoted were dark skinned like Dravidians?" Sorry, I just seem to question most everthing and everyone! Except those whose ideas comform to mine! Laugh! Regards, Oh! By the way! I meant to also show this site; http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/susa/index.htm In it you can find a photograph from the air of Susa ca. 1935 and another from 2009! Just what happened? Did Iraq cause this? Did the Shah of Iran? Did the USA? Did the Soviet Union, or England, or Germany? Just what caused this great complex to "melt?" Could it really be the callousness of the native Iranians? Or, could it possibly be that these ruins are not really as old as we have been told? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 13-Apr-2010 at 13:20
I am not entirely sure they were but the reliefs do look as if they had dark skin and not like tanned. Also "Cyrus Shahmiri" posted this http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28033&PID=628273#628273 Is when I suspected they were dark skinned. Also I read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elamo-Dravidian . Also I am pretty sure their were dark skinned people living in West Asia. I've even seen Kurds who look indian and many Turks from Turkey as well. I remember when I was young their was a Kurdish family who lived close by us. I still remember asking my mother why do they look like Indian?. I have not looked into the Elamites much so I am not certain in my view that they were Dark. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2010 at 13:30
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In regards to kurds in sryia, well we are oppresed there too.. can't speak kurdish, cant study kurdish and no basic rights.. People get killed in every newroz.. In iran.. well its somewhat better, however we've recently seen an increase in drugs given out to kurdish youth by the goverment.. so... I don't understand why, iran does not help us create a kurdistan outside of iran, as then we will have more iranic states.. why is iran so bothered with palestine? as if arabs dont have enough states? In regards to kurds and jews, the tests showed that some kurds have similar dna to sheperdic jews.. P.S look here for some kurds: http://www.flickr.com/photos/44738189@N08/ Those kind of kurds make up 30% of kurds.. 80% of kurds are white 20% of kurds are dark |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2010 at 16:18
Actually Iran did help the Kurds in the past 50 years but Iran stabbed them in them back both times. First it was the Sha of Iran in 1975 when he helped the Kurds fight the Iraqi government then the Sha signed a peace agreement with Iraq in which he helped them fight against the Kurds. Whats funny is that Musta Barzani was once quoted for saying "Where ever Kurds are it is Iran" but that was before the Sha turned agaisnt the Kurds. Kurds even helped Iran in the Iran-Iraq war and all they got was a gas attack that killed thousands. Even after that Iran still did not support the Kurdish cause. All they are focused on today is Palestine. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2010 at 16:51
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Actually Iran did help the Kurds in the past 50 years but Iran stabbed them in them back both times. First it was the Sha of Iran in 1975 when he helped the Kurds fight the Iraqi. well it is true in some extent, but not all the truth, i remember that because i was living att that time in iran -irak border. the help was much giving possibillty to the iraqi kurd peshmerga to come from iraq inside iran for treatment of wounded and it was possible for kurds from iran to participate in the war beside iraqi kurds and it was not of real great help neither because they were not familiar with the kurdish area in iraq and coulden't fight well due to lack of knowledge about fighting ground. many many young men from our side went there and they come back in coffin  . so much as nearly every day during hard fights. anyway maybe iranian gave some help with ammo too but, it was all not iranian army helping directly or in great extend, but it was enough to keep iraqi army out of kurdish mountains in iraq and kurdish peshmerga in iraq could survive as they happily did , |
Posted By: Azadi
Date Posted: 16-Apr-2010 at 17:31
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Which party from East-Kurdistan got their peshmerge into South-Kurdistan, to fight the Iraqi regime ? Would be nice if you could share this with me. I know the PDKI sent alot of peshmerge-families into South-Kurdistan, so that Iran would stop shelling South-Kurdistan's mountains and villages. But none of them participated in the war, or even fired a bullet - but still a lot of them did get killed by Irani assassins, and Kurdish traitors. PKK got the same offer from President Barzani, they accepted it too, but they actually participated in the war and retaliated pretty heavy on whoever attacked their camps, Iraqi, Kurd, Irani or whatever nationality. Also I would like to point out that Irans "help" was not for the sake of the Kurdish people, not at all, and I'm sure it will always stay that way - at least under the current brainwashing regime. -------------
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Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 04:25
| How many kurds here from kermanshah? |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 04:47
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at that time i was at iranian ghasre shirin city and i saw many young guys were recruted from tribes around the border inside iran . often very young from tirbes surrounding. jaff, goran, ghalkhani ,kalhor even feyli(LORES. for this matter SADDAM has killed thousends of civilian feyli tribes living in khanaghin area for revenging. it is very known fact.) . they gave them an old brno rifle and 60 rounds 7,9 cal cartridges and send them to the other side of border . they came back very soon often in coffin.
there was a an iranian military hospital in the border run by iran and it was overcrowded by wounded. i talked to the doctors and they were very sad and uppset about amount of wounded and killed. those guys were very poorly armed with old brno rifle and faced baath army which was armed with klashnikof and most modern autmatic rifles and had artilery and air support. att that time nobdy talked about pkk (1967) and the late mustafa barzani was very friendly to iran and iranians as he mentioned himself. at that time i wonder if PKK was allready operationell in turkey in 1960-1970?? did they?? many kurds mainly muslim in iran and iraq do not trust communists and i understand if they don't like PKK. i don't call them traitor it is a term often used by PKK reffering to non communist kurds. please be carful by using this term , because it is often the word to discribe PKK in our region They call them communist inflitrator people |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:00
WE dont agree with terrorism used by PKK, however I agree 100% with their cuase, they are fighting for kurds!!!! When barzani was asked, will you use military operations againts PKK, he said "I support a peacefull solution, however I will not attack my fellow kurds for any other countries sake" that applies to any kurdish party fighting for kurds, kermanshah kurds go to hell! danm jash! |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:09
The PKK has done very well at making Anatolian Kurds hate Iran. They are not told of their history with Persians or the similarties, all they are told is that they descendeds of the Medes and that they have nothing to do with Iranian history. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:10
Having history in iran, does not mean we want to be a part of iran! you are brainwashed my friend, only kermanshah kurds would say something like this.. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:14
I am not talking about been part of Iran. I am talking about leting people know that they are not that different from Persians and they share similarties with them. It is the small things that they are not told. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:17
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idea kermanshah is a city partially inhabited by kurds and fars people . the kermanshani is a farsi dialect, but beside that there a an other part of population which are speaking south kurdish dialect like kalhori. gorani , hawramani. as you mentioned the name of the late mula mustafa barzani he was a very religiousman unlike commy propaganda ) reffered himself as an iranian and said - were ever kurds are living there should be called IRAN. and today communist kurds try to give the glory to themselves and forget that at those days of hard fight they were shining by their absence . i love kurds were ever they live in arbil. diarbakir hawlir or kermanshah or were ever. they are all my brothers, but communist are liar opportunist only fighting to have political power and don't care about their felllow countrymen. to the hell with nobody i believe in democracy and believe even the communists should have even right to exist and vote too
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Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:18
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WE'RE DIFFRENT FROM PERSIANS! medes are not persians, medes mixed with persians, the medes that stayed loyal are today kurmanji!! You know the first empire cyrus conquered was median empire! we're not persian we're iranic! |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:21
No dont put words in our leaders mouth for f**ks sake! you brainwashed idiot.. what about republic of mahabad!??! Quate! and read it carefully you brainwashed fool " http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mustafa_Barzani - Mustafa Barzani , with his soldiers from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan - Iraqi Kurdistan , had formed the backbone of the Republic's forces. After the fall of the republic, most of the soldiers and four officers from the Iraqi army decided to return to Iraq" Barzani, brought he's soulders to the republic of mahabad that nearly made it, now if he by your logic said kurds everywhere is iran, why would he support a kurdish state outside of iran with he's troops!?!?!? There's a reason we call you jash |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:22
Noboday said we were not different. My point is we are not that different. Due to culturel and linguastic similarties. The Medes and Persians were also brother tribes. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:24
You need to stop saying persian, call me iranic and I agree, call me persian I get offended! Just like turks can be called turkic but their not mongol! |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:26
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do you mean there is a pure kurdish race !!! and it is only kurmanji . you forget that in litrature often reffered as zwane kurdi va ya kurmanji. were did you find your racial idea about kurds . i saw your picture published with blue eyes and light hair . how many % of kurds in kurdestan have those features ? are you living in dream??. or you try to build an apartheid regim in kurdestan how old are you ?
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:28
Where did I refer to Kurds as been Persian? You really need to calm down. I understand you have problem with the Iranian government or the past rulers who were mainly all Turks Post-Sassanids era, that should not be the reason you should feel anger towards the ordinary Persians. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:29
Maybe you didn't understand what I wrote, I said only a minority of 30% of kurds are like that! Kurds are not a pure race, when did I say that.. infact sorani and kurmanji have diffrent ancersters.. but its not ancesters that make someone kurdish, no its the culture, language etc.. Yes I want a kurdish state, away from iran.. and we're doing that in northen iraq, so I want you kermanshah kurds to stay out of it, and stop spreading propaganda about our political leaders ok? danm jash.. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:30
Im calm, I just dont want to be calld persian, or say we are persiand, we're iranic yes.. but not persian.. tell me are you kurd? I assume kermanshah kurd? I dont really call them kurd.. I dont care about any iranian regimes.. today greenies hiding in kurdistan region, if tomorow they get power in iran they will forget who helped them.. just like everyone else kurds helped.. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:32
That's the thing bro, Kurds of today are a mixture of diferent tribes and who knows who original called Kurd. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:33
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idea. you call mula mustaf for your leader . i agree that he desrves this name , because he was a man that faught for kurds and you say only real kurds are kurmanj speakingi!! was mulah mustafa speaking kurd or kurmanji?
you diden't answer me if PKK existed or was operationel at 1960-1970 s?why can't you answer to this question? sofar the only people in te region that helped kurds in thier strugle have been persian( iranianS) unlike the turcs in turkey which do not even allow you to speak your own language and call you mountain turcs or arabs like sadam that massmurdere kurds in iraq and denayed them theircultural rights. only in iran kurds had a better staue as citien even when all of other iranian people. mister idea you thank them by your kind words no wonder if iranial(persia)will turn their back to the kurds too!! it is sad how stupidity of a few can affect the relation between peoples! |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:34
Now they are not Kurds? who gives you that wright to make that claim? They call them selves Kurds. Actually historcally that region was where the first mention of the word Kurds and Kurdish dynastys was. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:38
What makes a kurd? .. They are jash, which means "traitor" the same assholes that were loyal to saddam.. and guess what we hanged them.. kermanshah kurds, and this is a known fact are all shia and loyal to islamic regime.. now answer my question are you from kermanshah? becuase if you are I'll start calling you iranian.. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:43
Where I am from does not make difference at all. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:46
I take that as a yes then, Don't worry we other kurds are well aware of you kermanshah kurds.. and we know all about you.. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:47
| Also this religious difference is also one of the main dividing point among the Iranian people. One is Shia where as the other is Sunni and they don't like eachother and have been fighting eachother for hundreds of years now, even against their own ethnic groups. |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:48
Where did I say I was, you are just making up your own mind, because I don't agree with your views. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:49
I don't care if someone is shia, sunni, christian or jew... and I hope one day when we get our nation, all kurdish jews can return to their homeland.. My problem is not religion.. |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 05:50
You refuse to tell me where you are from for one.. and thats just how kermanshah kurds are, I'v met more then one of you.. I know.. every other kurd knows.. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 06:16
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idea i am actually kalhor kurd from gilane gharb origin and very proud of it and i love kermanshah and would be proud to be kurd from kermanshah , because kermanshahi people are very proud and civilised people both fars and kermanshahi kurds very unlike you they do not insult the others kurd or fars. and do not lies about pkk being involved in kurdish war in southern kurdestan when even pkk hasen't existed at that time. try to be a honest man if you are really kurd  or not an inflitrator from anatloli KURDS are all brothers sorani ; gorani, hawrami ; jaff ; ghalkhani ; kalhori ; zazaki; behdinany and all the other tribes and all religions . sunni. shia, yazidi, chirstian nastory and kurdish jews . we non iraqi kurd support the KRG in iraq with our heart and mind and wish them all the best. we kurds are brothers to all iranian peoples and even arab and turcs too even wehave faught against them ,because they diden't respect our nation, please stop your childish comments,
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Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 06:25
When did I say PKK was invloved? I said barzani.. read carefully man.. am a sorani kurd from kurdistan region .... stop bad mouthing us you jash.. we kurds in north iraq support turkey kurds.. and we all know you jash, so stop talking in behalf of kurds ok?!?!? |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 06:44
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who gives you that right to call other kurds jash ? why you try to splite kurds ? i never said you are a jash , but it seems you are one of them, because you are used to this word . you have been surely called for that . how old was you when the late mulah mustafa barzani was alive ? how many war have you faught at that time? dosen't saddam massmurdered feylies in khanaghin? . you only call every body else jash and yourself real kurd
, do not be so stupid and insulting other peoples. how many war did you fight for kurdestan and i answered you where i am comming from . please tell us where are you from??? that is so pure kurdish |
Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 06:50
You seem to have a habit of not reading carefully.. I said am a sorani kurd.. from kurdistan (in iraq) ... Let me tell you what a jash is, becuase you obviously dont know what it is.. A jash is what we kurds call "traitors" "self hating kurds" such as yourself, you fall into the traitor category, along with every other kermanshah kurd.. Actually, am not old enough to have been in wars, however was is not the only thing that will benefit kurds, education is another tool, and this is the root I'v chosen to take! otherwise everyone starting from my cousins to my grandad have been a peshmerga! You are jash for not believing in the kurdish cuase, you are jash for not wanting a country for us kurds, jash! Please do not ever again, spread propaganda about barzani! becuase he fought irani army in mahabad and its a fact |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 07:03
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who said i hate my kurdish origin ? actually as a traitor and sadam'sboy you are used to insult the other kurds . sorani is not a place it is a kurdish dialect . are you sorani speaking kurd from takrit. you stupid little piece of shit liar . you don't even know that gilan gharb is hundredes of miles far from kermanshah if you were in front of me i would make you swallow every shit comming out of your mouth even i am a 60 years old man. anyway as i understood you are a child and you have many mental disorder , once you are pure kurd aryan, then you are a kurdish freedom fighter which has never faught a war, but have right to insult other kurds. please consult Dr. phil !
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Posted By: ideas
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 07:07
What the hell is wrong with you? just becuase your english is bad dont make assumptions.. Im 100% pro-kurdish state! Im 100% anti jash-you! Im 100% ainti saddam or iraq for that matter Im 100% anti - turk/arab/ some persians I don't care how old you are, or who you are! WE kurds, the nationalists loyal to kurds only are the only ones who can decide who to call jash or not.. how dare you call me saddams boy?!?!? when my familiy has ben fighting him for years?!? idiot! Plus, what have you dont? ha.. what have you done? other then ally yourself with iran? Am not from tikrit.. AM FROM KIRKUK. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 08:36
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it is your assumption of yourself by yourself. mine assumption is: once you were pure (aryan median) kurd then you become only 30% aryan!!! ooops not good for a pure race kurd like you!!! it seems you have deep racial problem in kirkuk!!!then you know the things about war in iranian border and who was fighting att get killed before even you was born!! (not bad)!! bravo
you are a perplexed arrogant children which knows very little about kurds their hisotry and their geografy and location there are 6 million kurds living in iran and nearly 1/3 of them living in what called kermanshah province. and you call them all jash as you are youself are that. i suspect deeply that you are even kurd!!! in kirkuk there plenty of turkamans, arabs and many others and of cours kurds too and a lot of mixed breed too any way it is not of importance , because we are all human. . in gilane - gharb i am comming i have to tell there are only kurds living, no fars no arab or turkaman!you don't know even that kermanshah is a mixed persian -kurd city and their is no such a thing as specific kermanshai kurds . beside fars population of kermanshah there are lores and leks (djalalavand, kakavand , osmanvand) then many different kurdish tribes. hawrami, kalhori, gorani, sennandaji, sandjabi,ghalkhani and many others, the kurds in kermanshah are not all shia muslims as you said before. there are great amount of them are ahle- hagh (goran, sanjabi. kalhor) and sunni from sanna(sanandej) mainly lek and lore non fars are shia muslim the kurds from kermanshah has not participated in war because they are living far from frontier with irak and they have been a great part of sasanid empire . before islam the kurds (mede) and fars were united not divided and even ardeshir sasani was ½ mede(kurd) and ½ fars and so was the cyrus the great too, iran was build by alliance of mede( southern kurds) and fars. you say kermanshai kurds without knowing that all these southern kurdish tribes are partially living there beside farsi speaking people and call themselves kermanshani when they are living in kermanshah.please read more about kurdish history and do not insult other kurds if you are kurd or not turkaman from kirkuk!! |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 17-Apr-2010 at 09:03
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The thread is unlocked!  -------------
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2010 at 18:24
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Reading more into Kurdish origins I came across this and it surprisingly supports my theory that todays Kurds came about after the fall of the Sassanids. John Limbert: The Origins of the Kurds in Pre-Islamic Iran
From what I have been reading, the only mention of Kurds in Iranian history pre-islamic times was during the Sassanids, to describe Nomadic tribes and they lived further south in Fars provance. These tribes are believed to have been Lur in origin, some tribes by the names that are mentioned still exist among Lurs. Could these tribes have moved to the North? But todays Kurds don't speak Lur, but share many cultural similarties, Or were todays Kurds born after fall of the Sassanids? Name was gradually adopted due to Social label or do to Arabs making a mistake in name? What you guys think? ------------- |
Posted By: Xorto
Date Posted: 06-May-2010 at 12:55
| Like i wrote in the other Artice. The ancestors of Kurds are Medians which themselves were just a conforderation of hundrets of Tribes like Urartian, Hurrians, Scyths, Hethits, Lullubis, Cassits, gutis, carduks and so on. The Medians we know were not a homogene Nation. Even the first Median King Kyaxares I. was a half Urartian |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 06-May-2010 at 16:43
Xorto, do you think linguastic can shed some more light on Kurdish history? I am still trying to understand why Kurmanji has strong SW elements. Even tho Kurmanji speakers live right next Zaza in the North yet they have many similarties to Persian, even Gorani and Hawramni don't have this much similarties with Persian and they live more closer. Kurds claim that Kurmanji was the language of the Medes?
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Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 02:34
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Ince actually the language of medes and pers maybe not being very different from begining. the lore tribes in central iran which are medes from beging do speak lory dialect which is even much more near to FARSI than kurdish. a fars can nearly understand what a lore is saying in lory!!!it sounds more like a persian dialect than being a different language!! it is why there is such a similarity between kurdish and farsi language medes and persians were very close related peoples from the begining. they do build together achemenide and sasanide empire too.
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 03:26
I have noticed that Lur is similar to Persian, which angerd some Kurdish Nationalists who claim Lurs are Kurds, even Laki who identify themselves as Kurds have many Persian and Lur words. Infact many of the Kurdish languages are pretty different from eachother but have inlfuenced eachother over time. Kalhuri and Sorani is somtimes categorized as sub dialects of Kurmanji. Where as Gorani and Zaza are categorized as Zaza-Gorani, been more similar to eachother. Laki and Feyli are seen as Luri. Not much or any written words of the Medes has been found, so it makes it difficult to point out which language group is descended from it. Sometimes Kurdish is categorized as been offshoot of Parthian. Heres a text that was found in N.Iraq and is believed to have been in the Parthian language, and Hawrmani speakers can understand it. Also damm the Arab invasion Hurmizgan (also Hurmuzgan, Hormizgan) is the name of an ancient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_language - Kurdish poem written on skin from muslim Arabs attacks era about 13 centuries ago. It was found around http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Hezarmerd&action=edit&redlink=1 - Hezarmerd village in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sulaimani_province - Sulaimani province in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iraqi_Kurdistan - Iraqi Kurdistan in the beginning of 19th century. The Kurdish text and its translation in English is as following:
هورمزگان رمان، ئاتران کوژان ویشان شاردوه گهورهی گهورهکان زۆر کار ئهرهب کرنه خاپور گنای پاله ئی ههتا شارزور ژن و کهنکیان وه دیل بهشینا میرد ئازا تلی وه روی هوێنا روشت زهردهشتره مانوه بی کهس بهزهیکا نیکا هورمز وه هویچ کهس ------------- |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 04:41
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how old is this text, because without translation it is easy for me to understand it !! almost the words are same !!! it is not much different from our kalhuri dialect!! i love hawrami music . they are very talanted in music and poems.!
unfortunately the extrem nationalism often damge the historical truth about the peoplescultural and ethnical back ground!! often many racistical fictions and not much historical and ethnological facts |
Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 04:53
It says around, 1300 years ago. So around 100 years after the Arab Invasion. I also notice many similar words to Kurmanji, but my Kurdish is not that good so maybe more words are similar. I too like Hawramni music, specially this one, I little bit of what the singer says. I recently found out that Parwana is a girls name, in India it means Butterfly http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GERJdZl5goo ------------- |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 05:16
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i saw that video klip it was very nice dance. hawramani are very nice people. i have been a couple of times traveling in hawaramant more than 40 years ago the hawrami girls are among most beautiful girls and hawrami men are known to be very brave fighters too.
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 05:23
I've never met a Harmani Kurd, but looking at that video I can see why they are seen as brave, they look strong built. ------------- |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 05:35
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Posted By: Xorto
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 09:21
| @Ince are you shadow? if yes you should know best why it is. If not i can tell you the guy who made this tables is well known by me. look it is a lie and total false to say kurmanci has more persian influence than hewrami!! Hewrami even adopted in some areas the persian suffix mi while kurmanci is still using it´s own suffix de! The reason why zazaki has less persian influence is because zazaki was just used in villages and foreclosed from the other big languages while kurmanci was used as conservation language between persians and other kurdish tribes! Thats why the population of kurmanci speaker is today higher than the one of zazaki speaker. And it is not proved that the medians used v instead of b! according to the latest results we can be sure that the scyths even used b instead of v. The important thing is just what do you see as the source language. |
Posted By: kalhur
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 14:45
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xorto when i listen to kurdish music from turkey it sounds that the pronounciation of words are much similar to persian than our own dialect in southern kurdestan, but as you say the kurmanji gramatic is very different from farsi . i don't know why, but somehow the words are pronouncrd much more like persian in kurmanji. i listened to ibrahim tatlisa song . shemame the words for things are often very identical to persian. i have noticed too that: kurmanji berf = barf persian wafer in my dialect. baran= baran persian . waaran in my dialect often B is changed to W i southern kurdestan but it is B in north like in persian!! unfortunately in our days after the iran iraq war which resulted to the devastation of many vilages and cities . many people from our tribe have left thier homes and setteled around persian speaking cities like kermanshah and our dialect is changed too i see when younger people are speaking kalhuri often they use persian words instead of using their own and the result is slowly the language changes !! and an old dialect is disapearing
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Posted By: Ince
Date Posted: 07-May-2010 at 16:44
No I did not make that I got it from here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language#Phonological_Correspondences_of_Zazaki_and_other_Iranian_Languages - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language#Phonological_Correspondences_of_Zazaki_and_other_Iranian_Languages I am Kurmanji speaker and my Kurdish is ok not very good, the Kurmanji words that I know look correct to me, I am not if all, I also am not sure about the Zazaki and Persian, I think when they use Persian on that Chart it does not mean soley Farsi it could also be Tajik and Dari. I just turned 17 a few weeks ago, so I am still knew to all this. I have for the past few months looking for articles regarding Kurdish languages and most of them always mention that Kurmanji/Sorani has SW elements, example here http://www.iranica.com/articles/kurdish-language-i - http://www.iranica.com/articles/kurdish-language-i These similarties could of taken shape during Old or Middle-Persian, I've read somewhere that Kurdish is more similar to Middle-Persian then to Modern Persian. It does not have to be that Persian influenced Kurdish, it could be that Kurdish speakers were in more closer contact with Persians and the similarties could of shaped together ------------- |