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Ancient Persian Numerals, better than modern one!

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Science through the Ages
Forum Discription: Discuss science and its effects on the world…
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=28049
Printed Date: 28-Mar-2024 at 10:27
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com


Topic: Ancient Persian Numerals, better than modern one!
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: Ancient Persian Numerals, better than modern one!
Date Posted: 07-Jan-2010 at 12:12
Ancient Persian Numeral System which was known as Siyaq in the Islamic period, was used until the end of Qarar period, 1925 AD, in Iran for all governmental accounting and financial reporting (Divani), of course it was also used in the Ottoman and Mughal empires and Turkic, Arabic and Indian forms were a little different from the original Persian form, maybe because they could be distinguished from one another.
 
As I mentioned in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27757 - Ancient Banking System , "Cheque" comes from Persian "Chek" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque  and Persians wrote Cheques from the ancient times but they didn't use Indian numerals, like 132000000, and as I mentioned Indians themselves didn't write numbers in this form for accounting, because these numbers could be easily changed, like 1320000000 (I just added one zero), or could be read erroneously.
 
It is clear that Indian numerals are easier for arithmetic calculations but calculators do them for us, don't you think that there should be a better numeral system for writing numbers, like the Ancient Persian Numerals:
 


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Replies:
Posted By: marieshi
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2010 at 18:24
How can you write that? I can't tell there is much difference.


Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2010 at 19:10
I would prefer to consider the system shown above as a nightmare! One mis cue with the pen, and all is kaput!

So, basically all is a "push!"

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http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2010 at 08:33

These numerals are not used in the modern times but it doesn't seem to be difficult to write them, the important thing is that it is written from the right to the left but read from left to right (for example look at 99 = 90 + 9), so it can be very easy to write these numbers in the Middle Persian, Arabic, Hebrew and other scripts which are written from right to left.



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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2010 at 13:08
Interesting post. Are there any examples of these numbers being used in 20th century Qajar documents that you can post here. I assumed they were using arabic numerals.


Posted By: Nurica
Date Posted: 26-May-2010 at 20:14
<<It is clear that Indian numerals are easier for arithmetic calculations but calculators do them for us, don't you think that there should be a better numeral system for writing numbers, like the Ancient Persian Numerals>>
 
well, I don't know, maybe when persians change their arabic script for a new and more adapted for a language rich in vowels, and when chinese change their thousand-signs script for a more simple one, I promise to look intro your new/old numeral system. LOL


Posted By: Nurica
Date Posted: 26-May-2010 at 20:18
And no offence, but in my view is a bad idea to take wikipedia as valide sourse of information... Please give us a more reliable, unbiased, competent and serious encylopaedia/book.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-May-2010 at 01:13
Originally posted by Nurica

And no offence, but in my view is a bad idea to take wikipedia as valide sourse of information... Please give us a more reliable, unbiased, competent and serious encylopaedia/book.
 
Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and is certainly better than Britannica, Encarta and several other American and non-American encyclopedias which want to impose their own false knowledge of history and other sciences onto the other people of the world, anyway the important thing about an article is its references, not its website or even author.

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Posted By: Nurica
Date Posted: 27-May-2010 at 10:41
<<Wikipedia is an international encyclopedia and is certainly better than Britannica, Encarta and several other American and non-American encyclopedias which want to impose their own false knowledge of history and other sciences onto the other people of the world, anyway the important thing about an article is its references, not its website or even author.>>
 
Oh my friend, when I told you that here we deal with a bunch of frustrated middle estearners, you refused to admit it; Tongue telling me that an "encyclopedia" where any obsessed idiot can put the excrements of his mind on any subject, and where agreement about "reality" and truth is voted by a small gang of nonspecialists is "better" than an encyclopedia (no matter the nationality of authors!) where scientific intersubjectivity still function, you show me that not only your will here is simply to alter and rewrite the history in order to comply your values, it tells me that you just don't get what science is all about! But no wonder that, when iranian president denies Holocaust... An advice: abandon the exacerbated nationalism (or put better "religionalism"), if you want really to understand history as a science and not as a hobby of some maniacs...


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 27-May-2010 at 12:11
There has been always this problem that some people think they know more than others or they are wise and all knowing but other ones are idiots, however I myself believe the Iranian president that you mentioned is among the idiots but he has a PhD and claims to be an all knowing scientist, so he can deny Holocaust, can't he? Or what about the famous English writer David Irving the author of 30 books on history of World War II? Is he also an idiot, like other Holocaust deniers?

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Posted By: Nurica
Date Posted: 28-May-2010 at 11:36

<<There has been always this problem that some people think they know more than others or they are wise and all knowing but other ones are idiots, however I myself believe the Iranian president that you mentioned is among the idiots but he has a PhD and claims to be an all knowing scientist, so he can deny Holocaust, can't he?>>

 

Of course he can, but that makes his opinion in no way a scientific one; first, probably he’s not a historian, so no expertise in this area; second, marginal ideas in science existed, exist and will exist; for anyone minimally smart, these are less believable though: anytime is better to follow the majority opinion of experts than fringe one, even when we have to admit that such majority opinions can prove later to be false or at least partially false.

 

<<Or what about the famous English writer David Irving the author of 30 books on history of World War II? Is he also an idiot, like other Holocaust deniers?>>

 

You have the good receipt to keep yourself far from ridiculous in what I’ve said above. What is to deny about holocaust? That it wasn’t 6 millions but 2? For any lucid individual, that’s futile! It makes nazism not an inch less horrible! Note that I’m a guy that keeps a site criticising the jews, their religion, and their community leaders propensity to play the profiteer with any occasion, holocaust memory included.



Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 28-May-2010 at 12:22
With appropriate evidence one may argue for anything. The problem with Holocaust denail is that the argument is just very weak. One does not have to be an idiot, history like many other things is peer reviewed, arguments and notions are challenged to substansiate their validity. However un like a science its all about interpretation, there are no clear black and white issues. Nothing can becategorically proven. So things like Irvine denying the holocaust is a valid argument, his evidence is just unconvinving and so is not accepeted as mainstream.


Nurcia the Chinese have beeb revising, refining and simplifying their script for hundreds of years, evens more so since 1949.

But anyway.....back to persian numerals.


Surely the big let down is their clumsiness for doing arithmatic, and isnt that neccessarily the main point if numerals?


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Posted By: Nurica
Date Posted: 29-May-2010 at 10:41

I konw pretty well the changes chinese made in their picto- or ideogramms, but that makes their script not less ideographic and accordingly complicated. I know also the virtues of this kind of script in chinese case, but once again, that makes their culture not less difficult to explore due to the complexity of their script (and (tonal) language, btw). Concerning Irving, I have nothing to dispute in what you have said above DW, even if you seems to think otherwise about that. As for persian nummeral system, one have to ask the question: why the roman system was abandoned? To me it seems that this persian system in principle is similar to the roman one and is suffering of the same drawbacks. From a certain point of societal evolution, any system that lacks positonal notation is condamned to be replaced.



Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 29-May-2010 at 18:31
essentially the mat doesnt add up


Sorry, that is anatrocious pun.


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Posted By: shoaib
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2015 at 08:10
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Ancient Persian Numeral System which was known as Siyaq in the Islamic period, was used until the end of Qarar period, 1925 AD, in Iran for all governmental accounting and financial reporting (Divani), of course it was also used in the Ottoman and Mughal empires and Turkic, Arabic and Indian forms were a little different from the original Persian form, maybe because they could be distinguished from one another.
 
As I mentioned in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27757 - Ancient Banking System , "Cheque" comes from Persian "Chek" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque  and Persians wrote Cheques from the ancient times but they didn't use Indian numerals, like 132000000, and as I mentioned Indians themselves didn't write numbers in this form for accounting, because these numbers could be easily changed, like 1320000000 (I just added one zero), or could be read erroneously.
 
It is clear that Indian numerals are easier for arithmetic calculations but calculators do them for us, don't you think that there should be a better numeral system for writing numbers, like the Ancient Persian Numerals:
 


Posted By: shoaib
Date Posted: 12-Feb-2015 at 08:12
hi buddy, where did you get these digits or numerals , i need all of them, please do reply
Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

Ancient Persian Numeral System which was known as Siyaq in the Islamic period, was used until the end of Qarar period, 1925 AD, in Iran for all governmental accounting and financial reporting (Divani), of course it was also used in the Ottoman and Mughal empires and Turkic, Arabic and Indian forms were a little different from the original Persian form, maybe because they could be distinguished from one another.
 
As I mentioned in this thread: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27757 - Ancient Banking System , "Cheque" comes from Persian "Chek" -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheque  and Persians wrote Cheques from the ancient times but they didn't use Indian numerals, like 132000000, and as I mentioned Indians themselves didn't write numbers in this form for accounting, because these numbers could be easily changed, like 1320000000 (I just added one zero), or could be read erroneously.
 
It is clear that Indian numerals are easier for arithmetic calculations but calculators do them for us, don't you think that there should be a better numeral system for writing numbers, like the Ancient Persian Numerals:
 


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 21-May-2016 at 02:51
There is no zero sign in ancient Persian numerical system.Hmm...interesting.Can you tell us more about it Cyrus.Hope you have researched this till now..



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