History comparisons! Othman and Macedonian
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Alternative History
Forum Discription: Discussion of Unorthodox Historical Theories & Approaches
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=27953
Printed Date: 29-Apr-2024 at 12:39
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Topic: History comparisons! Othman and Macedonian
Posted By: opuslola
Subject: History comparisons! Othman and Macedonian
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2009 at 19:58
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Since this is the "Alternative history" section, I thought I'd post this little ditty now.
Please take a close look at this map reportedly describing the Ottoman and Eastern Byzantine Empire about 1450 CE! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eastern_Mediterranean_1450_.svg Please feel free to find a similar map showing the empire of Alexander the Great, after he invaded Asia Minor. If you find one please post it also! But, you just might know from your own readings that Alexander reportedly did not really go very far into Greece proper but basically had voluntary support from the Pelopenese area, IE Sparta, after his first great incursions. So, the Southern part of Greece was not really an area that he conquered by force of arms. Please note again the map of 1450 CE! Note that the Ottoman Empire encompasses the area we now consider as Macedonia, and parts of Asia Minor, and parts of Greece, except for Southern Greece. You might well remember that Alexander was not reported to have attacked Constantinople / Byzant when he entered Asia Minor! Just why would he avoid it, and also miss a very narrow passage into Asia Minor? Instead he reportedly crossed into Asia Minor a good deal to the West of Constantinople, as a point that was a good deal wider than what he would have found at Constantinople / Byzant to the N. East! Again, notice that the Ottoman Empire also does not include it either, since reportedly they had yet to conqueror it, but they do control a large portion of Europe literally surrounding Byzant. It is also known that the capital of the Ottomans was located not in Asia Minor but in Europe, at Adrainople! What we do not really know is whether the European conqests of the Othman's was the first area under their control or a part of Asia Minor! Or do we? Also note that a large part of Asia Minor was not under Ottoman control in 1450, although Byzantium was reportedly conquered before the rest of Asia Minor, IE to the East! Alexander, also reportedly conquered the Western part of Anatolia before conquering the Eastern part! Or at least that is the theory! So, do any of you see very obvious comparisions? or similarities? Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Replies:
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2010 at 14:57
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Why yes, Ron I do see some obvious similarites! With but a few differences, all of which can be explained by normal means, it seems both of these empires basically occupied, for a while at least, the same parts of the world!
Could it be that we are missing something? Regarde', ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 19:30
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Oh! Ron, I see some relationship, or at least some possible relationship between the words "Macedonian" and "Makkadonian!", or even "Meccadonian!", just what could this mean?
Is "Mecca" the same as "Makka?" Dodo, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 09-Feb-2010 at 19:34
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Ron baby! I also seem to see some relationship, no matter how tenious, between the words "Othman" and "Ottoman!" Could there exist some relationship between anyone named "Otto" and someone named "Otho?"
Regards, Attaman ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2010 at 19:08
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Yes, Ron I do see that MAKKA and MECCA are related!
But, just what could that lead to? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 09:51
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http://library.thinkquest.org/10805/alexmap.html - http://library.thinkquest.org/10805/alexmap.html
This is a map of Alexanders questionable empire. I question his empire because he didn't live long enough to rule it. Vikings and Mongols raided large areas too, but does this qualify as having empires? Didn't the Ottoman Empire actually mean persistent rule over the people of the area conquered? What qualifies an empire? Should not this mean a stable form of government that last at least a couple of hundred years? Why do we make such a big thing over what Alexander did and pretty much ignore Genghis Khan anyway? Wouldn't it better to compare these two, than to compare Alexanders conquest with the Ottoman Empire? I am just asking. I really don't know enough to be sure. Hum how about comparing the Vikings with Mongols wouldn't that be an interesting comparison to make? Then who great is Alexander compared to them? Like what is it that makes him so great?
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Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 10:48
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How important was Byzantium as a city at that point when Alexander was trapsing by? Was it worthy of the effort? Its later greatness and importance dont neccessarily correlate to its prior existance.
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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 10:54
Hey! You 2 butt out. Ron was doing fine, all by himself. I just want to be around when he posts something he doesn't agree with. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 10:55
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 11:02
| I am finding Ron extremely beneficial. He stimulates me to question things, and this leads me to googling for more information, and than I learn things I didn't even know there was to learn. For example, he brings up Macedonian which is about the greatness of Alexander, which makes me question his greatness, and this makes me question the greatness of Peter the Great as well, which leads to discovering something every interest about the Scots. Now I am opening a thread about the Scots. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 17:15
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Thank you Carol, opening minds is my profession! Remember "A mind is a terrible thing to waste!"
Small connections exist most everywhere, connecting the dots of connections can sometims paint a picture! Most don't get it or want it! Hope you do? Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 10-Jul-2010 at 20:08
Oh, I definitely agree that Ron can be stimulating, in a manner of speaking.
Ron employs the "overwhelming quantity" strategy when posting.However if you go back in the postings you'll see where most of the ideas come from. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 11-Jul-2010 at 03:23
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I would prefer to use the term "overwhelming quality strategy!"
Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 12:54
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Don't be afraid Red Clay! If certain posters here, actually backslide in my direction, they will not be harmed!
Education, in any form, is still, EDUCATION! If I provide some suggestions, or comments, or challenges to our currently accepted time-line, then you, as one secure in the confines of it, should "merely stay quiet" on the sidelines! After all, all of the momentum is on your side!  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 20-Jul-2010 at 13:00
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DW, wrote a while ago;
"How important was Byzantium as a city at that point when Alexander was trapsing by? Was it worthy of the effort? Its later greatness and importance dont neccessarily correlate to its prior existance." Funny you should ask! We are actually led to believe that Constantine found this area almost naked in regards to ports, or cities, etc.! And, if we are to believe the early reports, his first choice, located somewhere near "Troy", was thrown out, and "Byzant" was his next, and final choice for his "Neo-Polis!" But, just who am I to contradict the commonly agreed upon history? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: DreamWeaver
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2010 at 04:14
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Well a city had existed there for a considerable time before hand, it just suddenly got alot more important after Constantine. ------------- |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2010 at 08:59
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It seeems that Byzant was also ignored by the Persians! Just why would the most narrow passage to Europe be ignored by both the Greeks and the Persians? Of course we are told that the Ottomans did not have to even consider being repulsed for many years, they were reportedly "invited" to cross into Europe by the Byzantines! And, during their attacks upon Byzant they were reportedly based in Adrianople / Hadrianople!
Please read this; http://romeartlover.tripod.com/Edirne1.html ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2010 at 17:42
In other words, my above post would tend to indicate that the Othmans / Ottomans had already occupied a rather large portion of Europe, before they began the "final solution!" 
Byzant, was it appears, surrounded on all sides, but still held a strangle hold on E. to W. trade via the passage from one to another, a canal if you must! And with the occupation of part of this territory by certain Italian groups, such as the Venetians, Florenzians, Pisans, etc., they provided a choke point on sea trade across this area! Did religious division actually cause the fall of Byzant to the Othman Empire? Can anyone tell me how the correct term "Othmen" or "Othman" was converted to "Ottoman, Ottomen?" I would surely like to know the answer, as well as a believable reason? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2010 at 14:05
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Re. Previous mention of Makka, and Mace as in Macedonia, etc.
Would it surprise any of you to know that the very name Muhammed" or "Mohammed", or "Mehmet", etc., has been written or translated as "MACHOMET?" That's correct "Mach-omet!" Please see; http://books.google.com/books?id=z_WLwa-CsbIC&pg=PA105&lpg=PA105&dq=machomet&source=bl&ots=Od9f0iewFF&sig=8HeWAOZJcK7Dyh6rQVZ5h_0fNUM&hl=en&ei=ZIEbTb72IMT58Aa9qYGfDg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBTgK#v=onepage&q=machomet&f=false Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2010 at 15:22
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You all are close to something...but will not find solution in word play game...Alexander was idea for many of them after his death...But memory that they were once together, like a storytelling, have survived until today...Religion separated them...and made the enemies from same people once..Egypt and civilized life in this area, we know like cycle for at least 7000 years and more...But name of main doers in this complex society is still unknown...In fact this is main history forgery and case of stolen identity of human entity in all Mediterranean area...Those people were main actors in Iliada and Oddysy...And they were goat pharaons.They migrated all around Mediterranean sea...I prefer Mo...for Mohamed ..or Mo Ha Me Di...You have Di/Do/Da/De...All of them are good for making a logical sentence...Syllables were there homeland...until now,just trust me... |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Feb-2011 at 21:22
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Actually, I feel very close to stating that "word play" is a basic step in understanding the past!
Historians have certainly made a mess of it by refering to one person as; "the Red", or "The Bald", or "the Chaste", or "the Wise", or "the Brave", or "The Conqueror", etc., whilst ignoring that other equally eminent men or women, were then and now referred to by merely another word meaning the same! Just how many names describe "brave" or "chaste", or "Wise", or "red", etc.! I personally have a great deal of trouble when I read the words of some respected historian, when he or she, does not go to the trouble to identify all of the possible names the subject might well have been known as in the past! It is merely a form of cheating! For example, just how many forms (and meanings) of the name "Otto" can you find? Just what is the name "Otto" supposed to mean? Search thru all of the above and then respond please! Remember to mention all of the possible language possibilities? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2011 at 16:27
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Medenaywe, did you miss my posting above? ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2011 at 17:21
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We here on Balkans,out of Turkey, knew about Ottoman Empire:they were bad we were good.First think i always have told you about this was:All Balkans countries have history books with same events and persons,adopted for their personal usage and nationality.Ottomans and their origin we must analyze until Byzantine Empire was still ruled!Asiatic people were used always like mercenaries by Byzantine as by Rome before!This chapter was described excellent with Attila and his participation in all Roma's conflicts!?!Those soldiers had received lands for military service also.Hungary,Bulgaria,Turkey,Finland or part of their land was colonized as gift for this service.Bulgaria and Turkey were on road of migrations from ancient times also. Mongols and other Asiatic people were members of Byzantine Empire.Until conflict had not happened there! Regular payments were not payed?Number of children with unknown fathers grown up?New religion got power from weakness of Byzantine social realities!?!Just like today caliph! |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2011 at 18:05
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Dear medenaywe, perhaps you are not really familar with the actions of the Catalans, and other Spanish troops (the Navareese) in the Balkans during the times before and after the fall of Constantinople to the Latins?
But, from little bits and pieces, it has been brought to my awareness, that just such activity did take place! It's scope is not however known! As you might well know, these times are mostly considered as "dark ages!" I wonder why? Well if you can assume that the breach of our "proto religions", that is Christianity, Islam, and Judiasm, only occured after the fall of Byzantium/Constantinople, and environs, then you might well get my drift/conclusions? I will propose that the wars, we now refer to as wars of Royalty, from France, Germany, Spain, etc., were merely the wars of the various sects of of the "proto" Christian strains, and the "proto" Islamic strains, and the "Proto" Jude strains, etc.! The term "Holy Roman Emperor" did not come from nothing! The idea of the perfect "king/holy man", is very old! Perhaps I should call it "Pope/King?" Thus, in basically this same period begans the era of competing "Popes", "Popes" located in differing areas, etc., and Kings, constantantly moving from place to place! All things considered it is all very strange and unique in the past! At least for most of the times! ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 19-Feb-2011 at 18:33
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I read this from your post about their activities in Athens!Nothing from this have not been described or published since today in history books here.Conflicts among Balkans countries with deeper study can be explained very precise.Balkans are still hostages of crusaders ancestors today and their "Holly Roman Emperor" title conquest!Lot of destructive wars on Balkans and World,i can explain by this.They believe all the rest are still their slaves?!?Last chapter of Balkans history have been classic criminal supported by government structures and people from banks.It was called transition.Something was forgotten:Democratic!?!Concerning this i found why after Empires nothing from original document have left.All was burned or rewritten.Reason:Actors of crime not to be punished!?!Destiny of 99,999999% of all documents for last 2200 years, was decided by existence of incriminating residual part. http://www.thinkbabynames.com/meaning/1/Otto What means "man" on Persian?The Persians just changed themselves,changing the names of the Empires.Muslim part created Ottoman Empire,rest of them medieval European countries.What does it means "man" from Ottoman? |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 20-Feb-2011 at 21:46
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Regardless of my inability to translate your English, I feel that your response above, was supporting of my posting?
Are am I incorrect? Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2011 at 16:41
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You can not because you are not part of Balkans every day's life.Man i am using indirect speech forms from books!Sorry about that.Maybe with short sentences will catch my premises.Shortly speaking,above I am saying that medieval ages stories are still reflecting our every day life on Balkans!?!"Legitimate" ancestors of Roman Emperor have been involved in most of World Wars as gun triggers!?!I will start with assassination of Franz Ferdinand,Serbian king Alexander assassination,etc..etc... |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2011 at 18:21
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I really feel that you should try and find an good English translator, and use him or her?
Otherwise, it seems we fail to communicate! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2011 at 19:19
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It is not wrong that you fail.Worst thing is not to raise again. |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2011 at 23:00
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I would also correlate the above with the Atta-mens, as well as the Makka-donians?, and those reportedly form Mecca/Makka!
Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 00:44
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You are closer to revelation and God himself speaking that way!Charlie Babbitt says a joke!(Rain man movie citat). |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 18:14
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I am still confused by your response above?
Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2011 at 18:35
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I just ask you above about origin of name Ottoman?!?Also was disputed that same history characters on Balkans, are Albanians in Albanian history,Greeks in Greek history,Bulgarians in Bulgarian history,Serbian in...,Macedonian in ....I suppose that people,"legitimate" ancestors of crusaders,in there conflicts for the title of "Holy Roman Empire" have ruled Balkans and native populations, pushing them to fight one another! I have already told you about name Macedon,during Roman and Byzantine Empires,Macedonia.Using syllables that were used by Denaywemo(Danayans) before:MoKjeDoNo/N is logical form created by me!?! I believe original name means :Godess's(of Earth) strength protect(us) on distance.Italians still call them Machedone! |
Posted By: shokdee
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2011 at 01:52
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Ron, what are your thoughts on... "Greco-Buddhism (the cultural syncretism between Hellenistic culture and Buddhism), which developed between the 4th century BCE and the 5th century CE in the area covered by the Indian sub-continent, and modern Afghanistan, Pakistan and north-western border regions of modern India was a cultural consequence of interactions begun by Greek forays into India from the time of Alexander the Great, carried further by the establishment of Indo-Greek rule in the area for some centuries, and extended during flourishing of the Hellenized empire of the Kushans. Greco-Buddhism influenced the artistic, and perhaps the spiritual development of Buddhism, particularly Mahayana Buddhism." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhism "Greco-Buddhist art, characterized by the strong idealistic realism and sensuous description of Hellenistic art and the first representations of the Buddha in human form, which have helped define the artistic (and particularly, sculptural) canon for Buddhist art throughout the Asian continent up to the present." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_art ------------- Monkey see monkey do be doobie do |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2011 at 17:15
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Shokdee, sorry for missing your post above for so long!
Alas, I will have to admit that regarding your query above, that my knowledge of it is miniscule at best. But, I would venture to state that the representations of Budda, as seen around the world, are exactly similar to the representations of Jesus, Peter, Mark, Elisha, Solomon, Noah, etc., that have been presented in one form or another in most all so called Christian churches. I would refer one to the supposedly ancient battles fought between the Iconoclasts, and their enemies, as well as other examples. Since I was raised as a Southern Baptist, I grew up in a church that exhibited no examples of a statue of Christ, or a Cross, etc.! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: shokdee
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2011 at 05:34
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Maybe I'm distracting you from your main argument but the reply - "But, I would venture to state that the representations of Budda (sic) as seen around the world (!?!), are exactly similar (!?!) to the representations of
Jesus, Peter, Mark, Elisha, Solomon, Noah, etc., (!?!! so many??) that have been
presented in one form or another in most all so called Christian
churches." - is a bit sweeping. I don't see the similarity: bloody Jesus hanging nailed to the cross is the same as the Buddha (!) sitting serenely in meditation? Buddhist imagery predates Jesus imagery by 1000 years, so which takes precedence? Did Jesus preach karma and reincarnation? ------------- Monkey see monkey do be doobie do |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2011 at 10:21
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Well shokdee, first of all, I just don't accept the current dating for the life and imagery of Budda.
As most people already know, there exists a long gap in the proposed lifetime of Jesus. That is from the time he and his family escaped to Egypt, fleeing Herod, etc., until he suddenly returns to Judea as a man of about age 28-30, leaves one with a desire to find some mention of him and his family during this period which might well consist of 17 or more years. As you might well also know, there have been numerous books and articles written that attempt to explain this period, with some of them proposing that He was traveling in the East, and studying as a Holy man, maybe even in Tibet. So, in the eyes of these writers, Jesus equals Budda, etc., in his Eastern travels. I have also proposed that Jesus might well have been many years older than our currently held proposals. I suggest that his real life, as a man or son of God, only began after he came of age as a Jewish man, that is after his Bar Mitzvah, at about age 12-14. If this can be considered then he was closer to age 40+ at his death, than age 30. I could also propose that his life as a "Holy Man", became the beginning of his now accepted lifetime. Thus one could well accept that he began his 30 or so years of a "Holy" life, at a much later time, and that he might well have lived until age 60 or so. So, as you see, I consider many strange things, but the study of the past already forces us to continually consider many strange things. Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: shokdee
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2011 at 22:21
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<< I just don't accept the current dating for the life and imagery of Budda.>> Willing to read anything if you can provide the evidence. What has lead you to this conclusion and can you further inform me. Can you start by looking at the Greco-Buddhist links from earlier and accounting for that imagery. Thanks. Can you show that Jesus is not Buddha in His Western travels? ------------- Monkey see monkey do be doobie do |
Posted By: shokdee
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 00:39
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Some further thoughts: "A shramana is a wandering monk in certain ascetic traditions of ancient India including Jainism, Buddhism, and Ajlvika and include Mahavira and Gautama Buddha. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shramana." Jainism *precedes* Buddhism, and Buddha images were modeled on the earlier Jain ones. ASIDE Notice that "In the Buddhist setting, this involved depicting in the image some of the thirty-two marks (lakshana) of a Great Person. These included long, webbed fingers; a penis concealed in a sheath; long arms; thirty-four teeth that were straight and pure white; blue eyes; a tuft of hair between the eyebrows; and a protuberance from the top of the head" Background: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jainism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_Jainism "In Jainism, a Tirthankar ("Fordmaker or Propagator"; also Tirthankara or Jina) is a human being who achieves enlightenment (perfect knowledge) through asceticism and who then becomes a role-model teacher for those seeking spiritual guidance." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirthankara "Rishabha was the first of the 24 Tirthankara. He belonged to the House of Ikshwaku, which was also known as the "House of the Sun"." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rishabha_%28Jain_tirthankar%29 The 24th and the last (and a contemporary of the Buddha): "Mahavira (‘Great Hero’) is the name most commonly used to refer to the Indian sage Vardhaman (traditionally 599–527 BCE) who established what are today considered to be the central tenets of Jainism." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahavira Now have a look at a picture of him at the moment of enlightenment: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Mahavira_Enlightenment.jpg Notice he is hunching. Body positions are a central identifying feature of Jainism. "Jain meditation is also referred as Samayika. The word Samayika means being in the moment of continuous real-time. This act of being conscious of the continual renewal of the universe in general and one's own renewal of the individual living being (Jiva) in particular is the critical first step in the journey towards identification with one's true nature, called the Atman. It is also a method by which one can develop an attitude of harmony and respect towards other humans and Nature. By being fully aware, alert and conscious of the constantly moving present, one will experience their true nature, Atman." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jain_meditation The 24 Jain Tirthankaras are always seen in meditative posture and have practiced it deeply to attain enlightenment. "Most of the Jain Tirthankaras are depicted in the Kayotsarga meditative posture. The word kayotsargga is made up of two words Kaya meaning body and utsarga meaning to give up." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayotsarga <--- very poor article!! Jina images come in two poses. In one he is seated with the legs folded upon each other, and the hands one atop the other, palms facing upward, resting on the lap. In the other he stands erect, legs and feet parallel, and the arms hanging down at the side of the body with the palms facing inward. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/f/f5/Siddha.jpg/175px-Siddha.jpg (Note to self - find the links to images of standing Adinatha and Parshvanatha icons, and the one with the roots and vines creeping over his body). ------------- Monkey see monkey do be doobie do |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 08:33
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Just a quick reply shokdee! It will take me some time to really review your sources.
But, off hand, I want to mention "Jain or Jina", may well be another version of the Holy Man who predeeded Jesus, and that is "John!" The use of the "Sun" symbol, especially a rising or setting Sun, is only an example of how the word Sun also morphed into the word "Son?" The metaphor of the "Rising / Risen Sun" can easily be compared to the use of "the (A)Risen Sun", in the ressurection of Jesus. Jesus frequently seems to have left his family or followers to meditate, and perhaps he used similar poses. Jain / Budda is sometimes shown as you did above at; "Now have a look at a picture of him at the moment of enlightenment: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Mahavira_Enlightenment.jpg" Surrounded by a circular "halo" of golden light. As you well know this was almost always the way Jesus or John the Baptist, was pictured in the past, as well as the present. You used this quotation above; ""Most of the Jain Tirthankaras are depicted in the Kayotsarga meditative posture. The word kayotsargga is made up of two words Kaya meaning body and utsarga meaning to give up." I would suggest that this is a metaphor of the words supposedly said by Jesus upon the cross, where he "gives up" his human body, etc.! The exposure of the palms of the hands, as mentioned above, could be compared to the notion that Jesus showed his open palms to the desciples after his re-appearance! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: shokdee
Date Posted: 28-Jul-2011 at 09:35
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To finish up my train of thought, some other areas to look for further information: First, Mani and Manichaeism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_%28prophet%29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ManichaeismSpread.jpg Notice, that Augustine of Hippo "established anew the ancient Faith" and was heavily influenced by http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manichaeism - Manichaeism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine_of_Hippo Next, the Bogomils http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomils Spread of Bogomilism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Razvoj_bogumilstva.jpg In the New Chronology FN this is the pagan precursor to Christianity, as reported in work of Tabov. Finally, the Cathars http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathars Another piece in the puzzle.... ==================== Ron, thank you, for making time to look into this and I hope your reading is fruitful. But could I ask you to please move away from vague metaphors like "son"="sun" for now and stick to what we can actually see and examine together over the Internet: icons, statues, figurines, archaeological artifacts, paintings, mosaics, and so on. I ask because New Chronology FN have found over 50 "reflections" of Christ already by studying the text data, covering this area in MINUTE detail. (Was Jesus tied to a stake or crucified? Did he have a chain around his neck? If crucified was the cross +-shaped or T-shaped? Did the nails go through the wrists or the hands? Was his right hand cut off? Was his eye damaged? Did he wear a crown of thorns? and on and on.) When you examine ALL the accounts of the Christ figure (Hebrew, Greek, Latin, English. Old Slavic, Russian, Coptic, Mormon, etc etc) comparing 40 or so different versions then the details increase exponentially and it's possible to make any argument. If we stick with material artifacts and avoid "word play" then we create a shared pool of material that everyone can refer too. ------------- Monkey see monkey do be doobie do |
Posted By: shokdee
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2011 at 06:04
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"Several important religions and religious movements
originated in Greater Iran, that is, among speakers of various Iranian
languages and hence with an Iranian cultural background. Moreover, Iranians
played a significant role in the development and transmission of Judaism,
Christianity, and Islam." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_religions These include: - Zoroastrianism (and Zurvanism or "Zurvanite Zoroastrianism") a monist dualism. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoroastrian - Mandaeism a gnostic monotheism that observed "Knowledge of Life". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandaeism - Manichaeism may have been influenced by Mandaeism but actually Mandaeism and Manichaeism seem to be independent – to some degree opposing – developments out of the mainstream Sabian religious community. - Sabians a monotheistic Abrahamic religious group mentioned three times in the Quran: "the Jews, the Sabians, and the Christians.". Their identity is still a matter of discussion and investigation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians - Sufism has monotheism as its practical aspect, believed in a direct perception of spiritual truth (God), through mystic practices based on divine love. .... A great influence was exercised by Sufism upon the ethical writings of Jews in the Middle Ages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufism Greco-Roman mysteries: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Roman_mysteries - Dionysian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysian_Mysteries - Orphism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orphic_Mysteries - Sabazios http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazius - Cybele http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cybele - Isis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis - Mithraic mysteries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithraism
Mithra - whose rituals formed the template for early Christinaity (e.g. the birthday of Mithras was on December 25.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mithra Mithraism - Dress Rehearsal for Christianity http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/Mithraism.html MITHRAS = CHRISTIANITY? http://jdstone.org/cr/files/mithraschristianity.html Mithraism and Early Christianity http://www.vexen.co.uk/religion/mithraism.html Did Christianity Steal From Mithraism? http://www.comereason.org/cmp_rlgn/cmp070.asp and so on... ... - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Analyzing the data How do we proceed if we want to make sense from this mass of
data? One way is to examine the iconography for stylistic and technical aspects. The
artist and restorer Alexander Zhabinsky discovered many parallels
in art. By arranging works of art in terms of increasing complexity in the representation
Zhabinsky found that art history, as outlined by Winckelmann, fits onto a wavy
line, which he called a "sine wave". His discovery is called
Zhabinsky's Sinusoid. This discovery, it later turned out, could be applied not
only to dating works of art, but also literature and science. Overall, the Sinusoid
illustrates the artificiality of the traditional chronology. Note that the Sinusoid is within the Chronotron school of thought, which fits alongside New Chronology Fomenko Novosky and Project Civilization, as the 3 main Russian methodologies.
The whole of his book is available online in Russian, but some pages are in English: http://newarthistory.eu/eng/index.html http://newarthistory.eu/eng/index.html?raising_falls.html For some "testing" of the idea see the following *Russian* pages: http://chronology.org.ru/newwiki/%D0%A1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%83%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B8%D0%B4%D0%B0_%D0%96%D0%B0%D0%B1%D0%B8%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%BE http://imperia.lirik.ru/index.php/content/view/10/7/ ------------- Monkey see monkey do be doobie do |
Posted By: Baal Melqart
Date Posted: 30-Jul-2011 at 10:02
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I agree with everything but I don't see what Iran has every had to do with both Sufism and Christianity. Sufism caught on mostly in Turkey but to a much smaller degree in Iran.
------------- Timidi mater non flet |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 12:47
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Resurrecting this old thread for newer members comments if any.
Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Ollios
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 17:25
Was there any Persian force or land in Europe before the Alexandre journey? According to this map, father of Alexander had already taken the Thrace. It looks the first Persian land is Hellespontine Phrygia http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Map_Macedonia_336_BC-en.svg">  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/Achaemenid_Persian_Empire_Map-Greek_Romanized.png">  and It's capital is Daskyleion so probably Persian army was near it (the first battle is Granicus, it is very close). Alexandre sent one of his general to take the city after the battle. This city should be more important than a fishing town. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daskyleion - ------------- Ellerin Kabe'si var, Benim Kabem İnsandır |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2014 at 20:06
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The Battle of Granicus, is but a fable battle that is later known as the battle at the Issus, etc.! Alexander meaning according to some sources as "The Defender of Man" or "...of Muhammed?" pb.. There seems to exist information that Phillip, the father of Alexander, had laid siege Constantinople or more correctly Byzant before crossing into Asia. But, it seems that the narrow crossing at Byzant, was not to be allowed so his army had to take a great chance to cross at a differnet and more difficult place. The Persians were also forced to use the same area earlier for what might well be the same problem? More to come!
Have to go now. Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |