Oghuz appearance
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Steppe Nomads and Central Asia
Forum Discription: Nomads such as the Scythians, Huns, Turks & Mongols, and kingdoms of Central Asia
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=26750
Printed Date: 20-May-2024 at 18:36
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Oghuz appearance
Posted By: Evrenosgazi
Subject: Oghuz appearance
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2009 at 22:51
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Dear friends
As I realised some of the members are confused of turkic/turkish identity. Describing turks as mongoloid or caucasian is not right in my opinion. We know that most of the turkic tribes are not from the same pool. Okay than let us talk about oghuz turks whom turkified anatolia. What was their appearance when they have arrived to anatolia? How was their physical status during the initial oghuz migration? Does anyone know any sources which writes oghuz tribes as mongoloid looking?
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Replies:
Posted By: feiying
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 06:56
| There is one story from Hoja Effendi stories. He mentioned that he gave a mirror to the sultan one day and he looked himself in the mirror and cried because he looked 'savage and ugly.' I interpret this to mean that the rulers looked racially different from the subject people. The sultan probably looked more Mongoloid and realized he looked different from the subjects around him. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 15:51
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Where did you hear this Hoja Effendi story? I've heard so many of his stories but never this one. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2009 at 19:58
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Evren, selam,
Oguzlar anadoluya geldiğinde biliyorsun Alparslan var bıyıklı ve gur saçlı olarak tasvir edilen, daha sonra arkalarından gelen kıpçak türkleri var ki onlarda bildiğimiz üzere Türk ırkının en güzeli olan. Uzun boylu sarışın renkli gözlü of of of of :D
For english : (:
As I know, first Alparslan captured the castle Ani. And he had long moustache and long hair and fully muscle.
And as I know the Kıpçak (you know them Kipchak because you can't speak Ç letter why I don't understand) Turks are the most beautiful Turk tribe they were tall and blond and colored eyes, I love very very very much!!!! :D ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK 
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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 04:13
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About kipchak Turks being blond and colored eyes (Nordic appearance) I don't know if it is true or not, but why do you think having Nordic appearance makes them the most beautiful ones? I personally like the Uzbek appearance and in second place the Azari appearance. ------------- Anfører |
Posted By: Evrenosgazi
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 12:25
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Due to the rare blonde population in Turkey, we turks favor blonde girls. According to my knowledge the oghuz turks appearence were darker and they did not have any mongoloid look(During their migration to anatolia). |
Posted By: Evrenosgazi
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 12:26
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Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 13:01
This following nationalities today are descendants (or partial descendants) of Kipchaks: - Crimean Tatars - Nogai Tatars - Volga Tatars - Bashkirs - Kazakhs - Kygyz they display a wide range of physical types, yet mostly dark-hair and brown eyed. Therefore I very much doubt that "All Kipchaks were nordic". |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 14:54
In history Turks were considered beautiful for having white, round faces and black hair known as "ay yuzlu". The blonde look being popular has elements with history and due to modern American Hollywood media were blonde = beautiful. Due to Blonde hair being more rare, it had appeal, there are songs in folklore about blonde haired blue eye girls. However, there are also folklore songs about black haired dark eyed girls, brown eyed girls, Turkmen girls, Cherkez girls practically every type of girl  Regarding Oghuz Turks look when entering Anatolia this is can also be confusing. The first Oghuz Turk tribes which entered had previously lived in the Iran/Azerbaijan region for a few generations first, so they mixed with the local population and settled there first. The next waves came direct from Central Asia during the Mongol expansion however, also some more tribes from Iran were displaced aswell in addition to Iranic tribes who probobly came along aswell. The next waves were after Amir Timurs expansion. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:06
the Kyrgyz not but the Qaraqalpaq. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:28
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Temujin, Kirgiz is part of the Kipchak branch of Turkic.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 17:32
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no, they speak a related language but they are not otherwise related. i mean Khyrgyz are older than the Qypchaq and they retained their identity throughout. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:20
Kirgiz have a Kipchak element, Kipchak tribes and speak Kipchak branch of Turkic, however, the historic Kirgiz have a very old recorded history especially in Chinese sources. The Chinese described them as having red hair and coloured eyes, the Tamgas of these ancient Kirgiz tribes and existing tribes today are identical. Also there was an influx of "Yenisey Kirgiz" later in history who were part of the "Tiele" (Dingling/Turkic speakers). Later in history nomadic Kipchaks dominated the region, as did various other Turkic peoples. They are all inter-realted and have mixed. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:24
| so what are those kipchak tribes? and just because they are part of the linguistic branch doesn't mean they are related, those names are artificial, like Chaghatay branch of turkic languages doesn't mean that Uzbeks and Uyghurs are Mongols, that just means their languages have developed their present form in this political entity. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 18:43
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While I was in Istanbul I noticed that the vast majority of people in advertisement on billboards or even on TV commercial were fair skinned. I noticed this whenever I walked to the school I taught at, about three miles. Are fair skinned people by the media considered more beautiful? I do not recall seeing any Kurds in these adds but it has been a few years.
This is a good question though and I wonder if Byzantine sources give any indication of this? I should ask Byzantine Emp I do not recall any indication of racial difference in "The Decline of Hellenism in Asia Minor" by Spero Vyronis. Sadly, after the Byzantines lost the Battle of Manzikert the Turkic tribes began their migration into Anatolia or invasion- depends on whose side one's ancestors were on at the time. I will pm this to Byz and see what he thinks.  ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:22
Kipchaks got everywhere, in part due to joining the Mongol hordes, the Mongols ruled Kirgizistan as a vassal state for a long period but this de-facto means a Kipchak presence. There is a Kipchak tribe in Kirgizistan but most tribes arn't Kipchak, tribal loyalties can be very confusiing. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 19:29
so i take it that the Kyrgyz themselves don't actually have any Qypchaq tribes but they just happen to live within Kyrgyz territory. anyways, what calvo said is:
as i demonstarted above, Kyrgyz were around much earlier than any Qypchaq, so what he said is factually wrong. obviously, Kyrgyz have no relation to Qypchaqs whatsoever except that they are grouped in the same linguistic branch of turkic, which just happens to be called Qpchaq but that doesn't mean it IS Qypchaq. |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2009 at 20:22
I must confess that I am pretty much ignorant of the science and genealogy of Turkish tribes. All I can say is that, unfortunately, since most Byzantine writers were extremely conservative and classicizing in style, they referred to Turks as "Persians" in general.
If anything matter to the Byzantines, even more so than race, was religion. Of course, during the later period there were groups of Turkish soldiers, both Muslim and converted Orthodox, who served in the Byzantine army. Michael VIII Palaiologos was especially fond of them and used them in his personal bodyguard. ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 16:49
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I don't understand why the topic was changed!
Our topic was Oğuz apperance. But I saw, they said nordic, they said Persians, They said kurds...
I said that the blonde word for Kipçak Turks. (yes KIPÇAK "Ç" no kipchak ) for example the name totneham but we should call it Totnım it is like this.
Kıpçak Turks (tribe) are the most beautiful appearence in the other Turkish tribes.
Thank You! ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2009 at 19:25
Myth TR I have been to your great country and the Byzantines or Rum called the Turkic tribes Persians. But you live there and since the Oguz first appeared the Ottoman Empire had brought in many ethnic groups. I saw some Turkish people who looked Caucasian but I could see their Asiatic features. They could be descendants of the original Oguz, who knows. I tend to believe as these various Turkic tribes migrated west they came in contact with different ethnic groups such as Semitic and Indo European peoples. I tend to believe that by the time of 1071- many were already mixed with other racial stock. The original Turkic tribes were Asiatic though. You can see this in the former (Turkic) regions of the former USSR ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 16:03
I can say a bit you are right but I want to say something.
You know all people can mix together. You can see japan and chinnese looked people in the middle usa. This is probable. I don't say in our country there is no people who called mixed with another people.
But I want to take your concentration to this. In our country there are a lot of Turkish tribes. And I think the byzantines were wrong because Turks are very very very different from Persians. Of course some of Turkish person may be mixed with persian person. You can see different faces in Turkey. But in summary They are Turkish.
For example in agean region in Turkey girls are more beautiful (for me ) because they are blonde :D and they are entering the maturity faster because agean region have too many olive, olive oil etc.. and Olive contains oestrogen and its makes girls more beautiful . And that doesnt mean this girls are rum , or european.
I hope you understood me, with my bad english.
Thank You ! ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 19:15
I think you are correct and the Byzantines, like many people, tended to lump their enemies into one group. I am still in contact with a Turkish gal I knew in Istanbul and if she were here in Arizona I would date her. Olive oil- funny I live off of that stuff and being half Greek it is also, like the Turks, a cultural thing. Are some of these blonde haired women part Rum or possibly Slavic by ancestry? I think you would love Washington and Oregon states because they are full of Scandinavian-German blondes. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 19:41
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[/QUOTE] I think you are correct and the Byzantines, like many people, tended to lump their enemies into one group. I am still in contact with a Turkish gal I knew in Istanbul and if she were here in Arizona I would date her. Olive oil- funny I live off of that stuff and being half Greek it is also, like the Turks, a cultural thing. Are some of these blonde haired women part Rum or possibly Slavic by ancestry? I think you would love Washington and Oregon states because they are full of Scandinavian-German blondes.[/QUOTE] Scandinavian ohh great ! :D we called them iskandinav and for me this people have great girls . The most beautiful girls . But I don't say the same thing for germans (:
But I think slavic isn't about this .
You are true, certainly some rum persons mixed with some Turkish persons, but if you can come Turkey again and take a tour on agean region you can see the real Turkish girls are blonde and beautiful (because of olive oil (: , and other foods (: ) ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 20:32
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Scandinavian ohh great ! :D we called them iskandinav and for me this people have great girls . The most beautiful girls . But I don't say the same thing for germans (:
When I say German they are Americans who are mixed with other ethnicity. Like in my case I am mostly Greek, German and Irish with some other European roots and a dash of Native American. This is why we call America the great melting pot-
You are true, certainly some rum persons mixed with some Turkish persons, but if you can come Turkey again and take a tour on agean region you can see the real Turkish girls are blonde and beautiful (because of olive oil (: , and other foods (: ) I saw some people who looked Greek and this is probably why a lot of Turks thought I looked Turkish. The strange thing is, other than my olive complexion, I look German. Probably more Northern Italian- I have been to Milano, Italy. I know many of Oguz settled down from a nomadic lifestyle and intermixed with the native peoples. Can you recommend any books about the Turkic nomads of Anatolia in English?  ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 21:47
Eaglecap, this book is good Oguzlar (Turkmenler): Tarihleri, boy teskilati, destanlariby Faruk Sumer.http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/5205940.Oguzlar I don't know if there is an English translation, I'll try and find out for you ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2009 at 21:54
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thanks and such material could help me understand the similarity the Oguz had with the Plains Indians. see politics of revenge in the Americas thread. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 15:49
To the Byzantines' defense, I think they did not consider Turks actually to be "Persians" in reality. This was a literary convention they adopted in their histories and other literature. Similarly, all Western Europeans were called "Franks" and Central Europeans "Scythians."
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 17:54
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You can visit Turkology institues if you will come Turkey again. But I want to say that again, some of Turk and Greek persons are mixed and you may saw them.
and yes again blonde girls (:
we had better change the girl topic or we may be get banned (:
------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 20:48
I found an interesting picture of a plate showing a Seljuk warrior in Byzantine Armies AD 886-1118. The person on the plate looks like a mongol warrior but I do not know how to find this image
 ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 21:20
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there isn't any selçuk warrior. They aren't Turk. all of them are byzantine. ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 21:38
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Myth, the Byzantines had a long history with the Turks stretching back to alliances with the GokTurks and Khazars. There were Byzantine Turk armies, Christian Turks and Turks of different religions living in Byzantine lands or as mercenery soldiers. I think the children of them were called "Turkopoli" or something similar.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 22:05
yes good point ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 14-Mar-2009 at 22:15
I am sorry that is wrong- byzantines and Seljuk the same - show me some sources on that and cite them. The Sejuk Turks were a Turkic tribe that invaded Persia and then Anatolia by defeating the Byzantine army at the battle of Manzikert. I do not know what revision history you are reading but it is, no offense to you, baloney. I really do not like wickpedia and do not consider the best source but check any historic source about that period and you will see how false your assumption is: Ask Byzantine Emp who is a grad major in Byzantine history. In fact, I think he has graduated from Michigan State University. Seljuks = Byzantines right!! I will post some sources on Byzantine history you should read later. http://tk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alp_Arslan - http://tk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alp_Arslan ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 14:07
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ANTHROPOLOGY The Oguz Turks are labeled by some historians as "the purest of Turks" in terms of race, language and culture. According to Lev Gumilev in his accredited work entitled 1,000 years around the Caspian, the Oguz in the anthropological (racial) category were Caucasoid (Europoid). The majority of today's Oguz Turks have light to dark skin tones and dark hair and eye colors, while lighter Europoid features including very light skin tones, blondish/brownish/reddish hair colors and light eye colors. We Oghuzes are "the purest" of the Turks ------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif"> 
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 16:51
I didn't hear anything about this topic. But I know the Ottomans was doing that which you called. And the ottomans call them DEVŞİRME . Which are captured in the war , and the ottomans was growing up them and they used to use in the wars.
------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 16:56
http://tk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alp_Arslan%5b/QUOTE - http://tk.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Alp_Arslan[/QUOTE ] If I don't interest I couldn't pass this object. A Huge Big Very very big false.
Seljuks = Byzantines ?
no , not.
If in this picture he was a SelÇuk warior you can choose them easyly. At that period, first Turk and Byzantine wars haven't blonde Turkish soldier. The Kipçaks went to the river with their horses and they suiceded, after they learnt they were fighting in byzantine army in front of Turks.
You can see easyly there weren't characteristic Turkish in this picture. Because this period not blonde
What a english. ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 17:38
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For everyone participating in this thread:
Please do not turn this thread into yet another one trumpeting whatever nationalist rhetoric one believes about the Turks. Also, this is not the place for saying what racial or ethnic features one thinks are "pure" and "unpure." Please stick to the historical context. if there are any questions consult the Code of Conduct.
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: HistoryGuy
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 17:40
The question really is, why are we questioning the appearance of a people? The Oghuz developed in Central Asia, and like many other Central Asians are a mixture of the Far East, the South, and the Southwest. I am not sure how much prehistoric gene-sharing was amongst the earliest inhabitants of the forest-steppe of Eastern Europe, however, surely there was. In light of the situation it is apparent, both genetically, linguistically, and historically that the Oghuz had infiltrated Central and Eastern Europe culturally. Thus, ultimately resulting in a true amalgamation of peoples. Let it be forewarned that there is no such existence of a pure people... Not now, not even 120 000 years (to as far as our genetic anthropological knowledge), and not ever... Same goes for languages, language itself is ever-changing and will always be, for example English. I know it is dry, but the history reflects its influences from all around the globe. Starting with Proto-Germanic to Frisian dialects, incluenced by Celtic languages of Western Europe and then later Romantic languages to our modern era. Oghuz on the other hand has been influenced, due to its 'invisible' boundaries of no influence and continuity through time (my version of a rotten joke), is ultimately a combination of socio-historic influences.
------------- هیچ مردی تا به حال به شما درباره خدا گفته. |
Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 17:45
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Seljuks = Oghuz Turks from Central Asia without any questions. ------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 18:06
There is no such thing as the "purest of Turks" its total nonsense, no nation or ethnic group is pure, what is "pure", please don't tell me you actually believe Oghuz Turks didn't mix with anyone on the way from Central Asia to Turkey. Caucasoid, Mongoloid... racial categorising is absurd, most people especially in Eurasia have features of both.
No your not the purest of the Turks, there are no pure Turks or pure anything else in Eurasia or anywere else in the world and if there were they would be some inbred freaks, can you imagine an extended family reproducing with each other for thousands of years... it wouldn't be a pretty site. Also according to Turks Yasa and Tore, marrying outside the tribe was encouraged, to make larger and more strenghthened clans and tribes.
The Byzantine had Turk armies fighting for her even during the Seljuk and Beylik era's, there is an old history between the two.
Exactly. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 18:47
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Buldog, I know there are Turks (especialy Kıpçak Turks) in byzantine army. But I meant that I don't know if byzantines were take the Turkish soldiers from their childish ages. I meant I don't know they grew up them for the byzantine army. I only know They are soldier of fortune. (some of Kıpçak Turks)
AND final :
I belive that, there are still pure Turkish blood . I searched my genological tree and I didn't notice any mix for 300 years, (I didn't reached after 300) and I think if in 300 years there were no mix in 5000 years like that (I belive it , but I don't know ) (: ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 19:03
Not just Kipcak Turks, there were Pechenegs (Oghuz) and armies from various other Oghuz Turk tribes aswell. Most were mercenery armies, however, high ranking officers over time became Byzantine and known as Turcopoli, Sons of Turks I think is the translation.
There is a big difference between 300 and 5 thousands years  Don't worry, mixing doesn't make anyone any less a Turk or anything else, being a Turk is not determined by your genes, it wouldn't matter if you were the grand grand grand son of Oghuz Khan, if you couldn't speak Turkish, didn't have a Turk identity etc it would mean nothing, you wouldn't have been a Turk. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 19:04
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All Turkic people belong to Turanid race. Turanid race also included : Estons Magyars (Hungarians) Finnish People (Finlandians) Japans Koreans Bulgars Mongols and some historical ethnics : Skifs/Saks Huns Avars Pecheneks http://tr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turanid (in Turkish) ------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 19:09
This is pseudo fantasy history. There is no Turanid race and Estonians, Magyars, Finish, Japanese, Koreans and Turks are not the same people. Also Pechenegs were Oghuz Turks therefore not theoretically extinct. The Turkic peoples have enough differences among them but we can say they are a supra-nation, especially muslim Turks and the Christian Gagauz due to being Oghuz and Ottoman influence. There are differences but enough similarities to be connected, ie linguistically, historically, supra-identity, religion etc But the other peoples listed are not part of one giant race or nation. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 19:21
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No man you don't understand me it's like a europoid race. There is many nations in Europe but they all belong to europoid race as they say. I don't say that turanid people are one nation, no, its like a type between caucasoid and mongoloid races.
------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 19:34
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Korean and Estonians belong to different races which is obvious. "Turanid race" is a wild fantazy. ------------- Σαυρομάτης 
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Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 19:51
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The humand race is actually a species, and there are 5 sub-species being Caucasoid, Congoid, Capoid, Australoid, and Mongoloid. Each subspecies has a number of 'races': I. Capoid or Khoisanid Subspecies of southern Africa A. Khoid (Hottentot) race B. Sanid (Bushmen) race II. Congoid Subspecies of sub-Saharan Africa A. Central Congoid race (Geographic center and origin in the Congo river basin) 1. Palaecongoid subrace (the Congo river basin: Ivory Coast, Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, Congo, Angola) 2. Sudanid subrace (western Africa: Niger, Mali, Senegal, Guinea) 3. Nilotid subrace (southern Sudan; the ancient Nubians were of this subrace) 4. Kafrid or Bantid subrace (east and south Africa: Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique, Natal) B. Bambutid race (African Pygmies) C. Aethiopid race (Ethiopia, Somalia; hybridized with Caucasoids) III. Caucasoid or Europid Subspecies (Geographic distribution centered in the Caucasus mountains) A. Mediterranid race 1. West Mediterranean or Iberid subrace (Spain, Portugal, Corsica, Sardinia, and coastal areas of Morocco and Tunisia; the Atlanto-Mediterranean peoples who expanded over much of the Atlantic coastal regions of Europe during the Mesolithic period were a branch of this subrace) 2. East Mediterranean or Pontid subrace (Black Sea coast of Ukraine, Romania and Bulgaria; Aegean coasts of Greece and Turkey) 3. Dinaricized Mediterraneans (Residual mixed types resulting from the blending of Mediterranids with Dinarics, Alpines or Armenids; not a unified type, has much regional variation; predominant element [over 60%] in Sicily and southern Italy, principal element in Turkey [35%], important element in western Syria, Lebanon and central Italy, common in northern Italy. The ancient Cappadocian Mediterranean subrace of Anatolia was dinaricized during the Bronze Age [second millennium B.C.] and is a major contributor to this type in modern Turkey.) 4. South Mediterranean or Saharid subrace (predominant in Algeria and Libya, important in Morocco, Tunisia and Egypt) 5. Orientalid or Arabid subrace (predominant in Arabia, major element from Egypt to Syria, primary in northern Sudan, important in Iraq, predominant element among the Oriental Jews) B. Dinaric race (predominant in western Balkans [Dinaric Mountains] and northern Italy, important in the Czech Republic, eastern and southern Switzerland, western Austria and eastern Ukraine) C. Alpine race (predominant element in Luxembourg, primary in Bavaria and Bohemia, important in France, Hungary, eastern and southern Switzerland) D. Ladogan race (named after Lake Ladoga; indigenous to Russia; includes Lappish subrace of arctic Europe) E. Nordish or Northern European race (various subraces in the British Isles, Scandinavia, the Netherlands and Belgium; predominant element in Germany, Switzerland, Poland, Finland and the Baltic States; majority in Austria and Russia; minority in France, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Hungary; outlined in detail in The Nordish Race) F. Armenid race (predominant element in Armenia, common in Syria, Lebanon and northern Iraq, primary element among the Ashkenazic Jews) G. Turanid race (partially hybridized with Mongoloids; predominant element in Kazakhstan.; common in Hungary and Turkey) H. Irano-Afghan race (predominant in Iran and Afghanistan, primary element in Iraq, common [25%] in Turkey) I. Indic or Nordindid race (Pakistan and northern India) J. Dravidic race (India, Bangladesh and Sri Lanka [Ceylon]; ancient stabilized Indic-Veddoid [Australoid] blend) IV. Australoid Subspecies A. Veddoid race (remnant Australoid population in central and southern India) B. Negritos (remnants in Malaysia and the Philippines) C. Melanesian race (New Guinea, Papua, Solomon Islands) D. Australian-Tasmanian race (Australian Aborigines) V. Mongoloid Subspecies A. Northeast Asian race (various subraces in China, Manchuria, Korea and Japan) B. Southeast Asian race (various subraces in Indochina, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia and the Philippines, some partly hybridized with Australoids) C. Micronesian-Polynesian race (hybridized with Australoids) D. Ainuid race (remnants of aboriginal population in northern Japan) E. Tungid race (Mongolia and Siberia, Eskimos) F. Amerindian race (American Indians; various subraces) ------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 20:08
+1071 (;
he meant that, there are other brothers in the world knows us and they searching exploring.
for example in hungary (HUN-gary- Oungur Turks -> Hungar Turks) . yes the world's first Turkology instute has created in hungary.
------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 21:19
+1453 (; yes thats what im saying ------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 21:41
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(; I think the other scandinav countries are starting this researchments. Estonia , Findlandia etc... ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 22:19
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Turanids are Mongolid-Europid hybrids. It's a stable type, not every half-Asian, half-European is a Turanid. The boundary between pure Europids and pure Mongolids is made of Turanids, there are no natural barriers between the 2 races, so they have bred a hybrid race. The Mongolid genetic component is usually on the female line, the Europid on the male line.
An East-Baltic Uralic girl from Hungary, A Turanid woman from Bashkiria:
 Uralics (aka Ladogans, East-Baltics, Neo-Danubians) are Upper Paleolithic survivors with an affiliation with Finnic and Ugrian people, although they are found all over Eastern, Northern and Central Europe in different ethnic populations. They are partially Mongolid only in a taxonomic way, incipient Mongolid, like Alpines or people with Down Syndrome. Russia's Uralics are Slavicized Finns. Finland is the blondest and probably the most racially Uralic country. ------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: calvo
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 22:28
You need to update yourself on anthropology I'm afraid. This idea of human subspecies is a 19th century idea that has been disproven by science in the 20th century through genetic study.
All human beings alive today belong to one species: homo sapiens, and one sub-species: homo sapiens sapiens. hundreds of thousands of years ago there was a human subspecies named: homo sapiens idaltu that had gone extinct.
Check out this site:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_%28classification_of_human_beings - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings )
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 22:32
Hungarians are not Hungar Turks, they are not Turkic and do not speak a Turkic language. Their country may have "Hun" in the name but the people are Magyars, they had contact and lived with Turks in history but thats all. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 15-Mar-2009 at 22:57
I'm agreeing with you. It's very punctual and true. But there is many peoples and countries who and which are thinking there is only one civil human race in the world and it is europoid. There is no such thing as race what divide peoples. All we are humans. I'm trying to be humanist always.
Huns were turks too and if u ask any Hungarian or how u say magyar who you are? They will all answer that "we are grandchildrens of the huns and cousin of turks". Belive me.
------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 03:47
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Magyars are Finno-Urgians, not Turks. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 12:46
Exactly ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 17:21
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Please look theese examples : English :
There are many apples in my pocket
Hungarian (magyar) :
Sok alma van a zsebembem
Turkish :
Çok elma var cebimde
Turkish Hungarian
Çok (many) Sok
Elma (apple) Alma
Var (there is/ there are) Van
Cep (pocket) Zseb
Cebim (my pocket) Zsebem
Cebimde (in my pocket) Zsebembe
Have you ever see a language as similarly as the other one in the world ?
No , you not.
You didn't belive ?
ok .
Turkish Hungarian
Fasülye (bean) Fasolia
Bostan (truck garden) Bostan
etc. etc.....
and the most important:
Turkish Hungarian
Atilla / Attila Atilla / Attila
there are a lot of like this..
Thank you! ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 18:03
So, what?
You know how many parallels I can give you between English and Latin? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_words_with_English_derivatives %20 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Latin_words_with_English_derivatives
------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 18:28
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Sarmat, Did I say anything about latin and english ? This is a well known topic smilitaries between english and latin languages. We are talking here about another thing.
Think it, where is central asia where is Turkey where is Hungary.
And think it again, where is rome where is germany where is england.
Which one is too far ? I hope you can understand me..
you said So, what ? I invite you to courtliness. and please be more calm the topics which is about Turks.
..Safromatis. ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 19:06
NO - the Seljuks were a Turkic tribe that invaded Anatolia but yes the Byzantines did use various Turkic tribes as mercenaries. Some of them became Christianized and intermarried with the Rum. This does not make the Seljuk a Turkic Tribe Byzantine. here please read: Byzantine Armies AD 1118-1461 AD- Ian Heath Turks: Hired extensively during the middle Byzantine era, the employment of large numbers of Turks was revived under Michael VIII in the second half of the 13th century. He is recorded as having 5,000 Seljuks in his pay by 1262 when those associated with the central army were as…… Page 34 Some were Christians Often to be found brigaded alongside Turks in the 12th-14th centuries and sometimes indistinguishable from them, was a corps of regular troops called the Tourkopouloi or sons of Turks. Nominally consisting of Christianized Turks or the issue of mixed unions, on occasion they included natives of the Anatolian provinces, who Pachymeres records shaving their heads Turkish fashion in order to join them. 34 The Byzantines did distinguish the Seljuks not only as a different ethnic group but as Turks. Uzes: Seljuk = Turkic tribe A Turkish people very similar in appearance and identical in armament to the Cumans and/ or the Seljuks (from whom some sources have difficulty distinguishing them) 34 Byzantine Armies AD 886- 1118 - Ian Heath Osprey – Men at arms series The Terrible day: Manzikert 1071 Armenia, once the Empires principle recruiting ground but now left practically defenseless by disbandment of its thematic armies, was in the hands of the Suljuk TURKS by 1067. This loss was followed by almost continuous Turkish Incursion into the Anatolia heartland of the Empire….. page 24 Byzantine Armies AD Today - I do not doubt there are many Turkish people who have Byzantine roots along with Slavic, Semitic and the list can go on. The Ottoman Empire, like America, was a melting pot of different races and ethnic groups. I could see it when I was there but when the Seljuk Turks first arrived in that region they were part of the greater Turkic family. Read Alexiad of Ana Comnena and remember the First Crusade began when Emperor Alexiad Comnena invited 4-5,000 Frankish Knights to reclaim lands conquered by the Seljuks after 1071 AD. They distinguished the Seljuk as being different but if you want to believe in such revision history that is your choice. Maybe it is just your opinion!!
MythTR - you are young but I encourage you to read multiple sources so you can get various opinions from all angles first. I sometimes fail to do this here because I am very busy and really should not use up valuable time here. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 19:11
In fact, similarities between Hungarian and Turkic languages is a known fact as well. People who studied the subject know that Magyars were a part of Onogur tribal confederation formed mainly of Turkic tribes and adobted a lot of vocabularly from them. Yet it doesn't mean that they became Turks because of this.
In fact, many languages have Turkic elements in them. Particularly, Slavic languages of Balkans like Bulgarian or Serbian have thousands of Turkish words in them, yet that alone doesn't make those people "Turks." ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 20:40
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ok lets do DNA test & u'll see the truth :) cuz they admit that they r cousin of the turks ------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 20:44
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What is your obsession with Hungarians, they are not Turks, just because you met a few that said they're Turks cousins it doesnt mean they are the same people. There may have been some connection in history however, today the languages are not even from the same language group.
------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 20:54
I agree with you overall and while I do not have the source I remember reading that their ancestors were Magyars, who had migrated from what is now Finland to the Eurasian steppes and came into contact with Turkic tribes. They later migrated into the area we now call Hungry so I do not doubt there was some intermixing but overall their origins are not Turkic. I also seem to recall their language is Uralic -a non Indo European language. Being so close to regions settled by Germanic people I wonder how much Germanic roots and cultural influences the modern day Hungarians have? ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 21:08
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Hungarians didn't come from Finnland. Their roots are in the region betweem Ural mountains and Southern Siberia.
Also their language is rather close to the language of Khanty and Mansi Finno-Ugric minorities of Russia than to Finnish language.
As for the intermixing with other people, it's obvious that original Magyars heavily mixed with Slavs that were the main ihabitants of Pannonia when Magyars arrived there. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 21:09
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Ok, I wish you will go to Hungary a day, and you will see the truths. Don't forget to ask a hungarian person to say There are a lot of apple in my pocket in hungarian language, and you will see . This is not only word smilarity , also sentence pattern, also family pattern, also friendship pattern . Especially the family pattern as like as Turkish family pattern (you know that so I don't have to explain what is Turkish family) ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 21:29
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The appereance are rather because of geography.
Exampel of Oghuz peopls. Turks of Turkey look like Greeks and Arabs.
Azeris of Iran look mostly like Persians. Azeris of Azerbaijan Republic, living in Caucasus region, look like people around them.
Its rather geographical thing.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 21:31
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Hmm.. I was there many times as well as in Turkey.
"Family pattern" in Hungary is just a typical Central European family pattern close to Czechia or Poland seems that you're not really familiar with the topics you're trying to discuss; are those close to "Turkish family" in your opinion?
By their culture, habits, religion etc. Hungarians are typical Central Europeans. And Hungarian language doesn't belong to Turkic group. It has a lot of Turkic loand words, it's true but it doesn't make it Turkic. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: HungryWolf
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 21:37
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why religion must be argument i don't understand There is Yakut turks who are living in Russia and they are orthodox christians but speak turkic & belong to turkic nation. Culture and habits of Hungarian people is very closely with some turkic people group in north and central Asia
------------- http://img15.imageshack.us/my.php?image=nnna.gif">
Turks can be killed but can't be beaten. (Napoleon Bonaparte) |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 21:39
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Sarmat you may be front of slavic of them. I am sure about it. ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 21:45
What ?
If you say this there were no people with different face.
Saudi Arabia arabs looks like africans.
France frenchs looks like germans
Germany germans looks like frenchs.
Spain spanishes looks like portugals.
Portugues portugals looks like africans.
etc. etc....
this is wrong opinion.
All neighbors are different.
Turks are not looks like greeks or irani or etc.. But of course some persons may be mixed. No racist opinions we have.
Azerbaycan yaziyor yerinde, eğer Azerisen selam kardeşim.
----------------------
Sarmat for you:
Εμείς δεν είμαστε ρατσιστική, είμαστε εθνικιστές
(; ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:01
Please read the Code of Conduct. All posts must be made in English. If you are citing from a source in a different language, you must translate it for the benefit of other readers.
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: Emil_Diniyev
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:02
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........ ------------- |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:04
Can you give specific examples please. It's true that some elements in Hungarian culture have similarities with Turkic cultures, particularly in music and some ornaments, but in general it's much closer to any of its Central-Eastern European neighbours than to the culture of any Turkic country.
Hungarians BTW always call themselves Finno-Ugrians not Turks.
Regarding Yakuts, they were never influenced by Christianity as much as Hungarians. A half of Yakust are still Shamanists/Animists and even their Orthodox Christianity is mixed with local Shamanism. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:08
While I'm glad that you're not my friend, I have to say that you were confused by my signature. I don't belong to the respectful Greek nation.  ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:11
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MythTR sees Greeks everywhere I am afraid.
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Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:30
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too funy I laughed much , laughed much , so I don't know what should I do . Climb the eifel ? :S ,
this called in litarature nice gesture for sarmat but it doesn't have any value.
------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:32
Kissing the grand fathers and mothers hand and after take their hands to forehead.
------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:33
Hungarian is not part of the Turkic language family, there may be some similarities but thats it.
Where are you getting this from, Hungarian culture is not similar to Turkic culture, even Turkic culture is so varied and has so many differences but there are some key similarities which can be found in most which is why we can talk about some Turkic cultural factors but this does not stretch to the Hungarians. Turanism is a fantasy, there is no grand Turanian nation including Turks, Hungarians, Koreans, Japanese, Estonians, Mongolians etc etc I don't have a problem with the notion of Turks forming some form of union with each other, Turkistan was the general name for Central Asia in the past and it could be beneficial for Turkic states and other Eurasian states to work together like an EU Union than against each other. However, Turanism is a step too far and has no credibility. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:38
.....Orthodoxs do the same with priests and kissing an elder's hand exists in most cultures. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:40
Vorian didn't you know? They're Turks aswell your part of the grand Turanian nation so embrace your brethrin.------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:47
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OK OK You are true we are bad people , we are very very bad, I wish we didn't come to the world , Turks are bad
you want to hear this sentences but I will never say (:
Vorian , my neighbor, when will you change? You hear the voices which are go out from your mouth ? You say priest, christian man. I say grandfather , grandmother (which you call in greek yaya or smthing ok ? ) ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 22:51
Ehh MythTR....I don't get what you are posting it's just creepy.
I happily accept my Turanian overlords. Let us rejoice and praise Turan together! |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2009 at 23:01
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Guys, let us calm down and try to maintain serious and interesting discussion if it's possible. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 17:03
Mythtrk- No I would not go this far and in many ways the Turkic tribes could and should be honored for their valor. I am sure if you researched Turkic art you might find it interesting. All of our ancestors were barbarians at one time; the Celts, Germanic tribes, Slavic tribes, Mongols, Romans, Greeks. The first wave of Greeks to arrive in the Bronze Age were very war-like. I urge you to keep learning about the history of the Turkic tribes and their contributions to modern Turkey and the world. It will take a lot of work but you are a smart kid so you can do it if you want to. Please see the criticism as a learning tool and start your own research but please do not give up. If fact, modern man, if you look at global events, is just as barbaric as our ancestors. Heck, being half Greek I could have Turkic ancestry and no shame in that. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 17:08
I do not have the desire the research this so I will take your word on it since I tend to respect you. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 17:09
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Eaglecap you could also have an ancient connection to Turks with your native American blood If you go back far enough I guess were all related, were all Greeks, Turks, Native Americans ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 17-Mar-2009 at 18:27
So do I my friend. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2009 at 14:17
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This is really discouraging to see most of the posts are, still, off-topic.
------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 21:51
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there isn't any selçuk warrior. They aren't Turk. all of them are byzantine.
Myth TR I still would like to see a source on this or is it just your opinion??? Seljuks and Byzantine the same-
I am just curious about this source and would love to read it. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 22:35
| he was refering to the cover of the book you posted. |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 02-Apr-2009 at 23:10
hmmm it shows some Byzantine Imperial guard or Varangian guards so I cannot see where he got that from by looking at a book cover. I think you are saying it is his opinion and there are not sources which is what I had suspected. I never heard this while I was in Turkiye from anyone or in the museums. I think it was at the Agia Sophia I found a exhibit that listed all the Turkic tribes in which the Seljuk and the Bolgars were listed. I mentioned the Bolgars because I have heard arguments in that direction by Bulgarians. many thank Temjin I will have to look at my notes about the dream some Sultan had about a tree growing out of his chest and its roots encompassed the Danube River, the Nile R. and the Euphrates River. I will look it up but can anyone recall the details of this dream. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: MythTR
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 14:30
You said Selçuklar and Byzantines are the same ? Or my english is going to fall down ? Or I can't understand ? I have never see a text like this. Selçuklar and Byzantine are the same.
Confusing... ------------- We Turks are a people who throughout our history have been the very embodiment of freedom&independence Mustafa Kemal ATATURK
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Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 14:36
I think the confusion arose out of eaglecap's posting the cover of the book, which shows Varangians in the service of Byzantium, and his subsequent mentioning of the color plate inside the book, showing Seljuk mercenaries, which he did not post. His intention was not to equate Seljuks and Byzantines in the ethnic sense.
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 21:44
Myth TR I have been to your great country and the Byzantines or Rum called the Turkic tribes Persians. But you live there and since the Oguz first appeared the Ottoman Empire had brought in many ethnic groups. I saw some Turkish people who looked Caucasian but I could see their Asiatic features. They could be descendants of the original Oguz, who knows. I tend to believe as these various Turkic tribes migrated west they came in contact with different ethnic groups such as Semitic and Indo European peoples. I tend to believe that by the time of 1071- many were already mixed with other racial stock. The original Turkic tribes were Asiatic though. You can see this in the former (Turkic) regions of the former USSR [/QUOTE] Did you believe that idiot persians?.They say persian empire the greatest empire in the world.They believe that europeans are iranian:D |
Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 03-Apr-2009 at 22:47
I only agree in part with you and what you say has a ring of truth in it. I know the Byzantines used Turkic tribes such as the Cumans and others as mercenaries. They were often settled them on the frontier after service where they intermixed with the native population. I know in some cases they were given Greek wives in order to help Hellenize them. But , the vast majority of Turkic tribes did not invade or migrated (depending on viewpoint) till after the battle of Manzikert. It took about ten years after 1071 before they started to arrive in mass. “The Decline of Hellenism in Asia Minor” By Spero Vyronis covers this in detail. ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: tigloon
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2009 at 06:15
Can you show me the proves of the ''We know that most of the turkic tribes are not from the same pool.'' sentence of you?Or is it just your idea?
The Turkic tribes, as researched by life style, belieft, language, myths, and antropology, shows that they are from the same family type called 'Turanid'(Prof.Cemal Anadol: Turks in the History)
*The Turanid type is described as: 'Horse (long) faced, little, some Lieu- li (blue) eyed, straight black haired, mid length people' in the Chinese archives (called as Pien-itien) as the very first knowledge about Turanids(Turanids are a branch of Europids and called as 'race turco-tatar')**(Pien-itien tells about Mohan the Turkic leader and it is translated by Stanislas Julien in the study called ''Documents historipues sur les Tou-Kioue= Tures''.)
*Eugene Pittard says that Turkic tribes are a race by themselves, in the book named: 'Races and its history'
*Deniker says that Turanids are called Turko-Tatar,
*Hadson calls them 'Turki'
In the Turanid race, the face is wide unlike the Mongolides,the nose is small and the eye curtain found in the Mongolides does not exist.
**Most anthropologysts say that mongolids and turanids are different race.They seem similar as religion, life style, weapons but science says they are different. My opinion is that there is a brotherhood between them, but I could have not found a satisfying source or research or tesis yet.
So, after this info, I can tell that the first Turks came to Anatolia looked exactly like central Asian Turanids, because they were not mixed with other races yet.
I would be happy to share any further info or discussion on this topic.
Thanks ------------- 'Peace at home, Peace in the world' Gazi M. Kemal ATATÜRK |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2009 at 14:42
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Apparently, this "Turanid race" doesn't exist. Turkic people in Russia (Tatars and Bashkirs) look different than Kazakhs which look not the same as Uzbeks which look different then Azeri and so on. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2009 at 19:28
| well, "turanid" in race-terminology simply refers to the type of appearance which is the transition between caucasian and mongoloid. |
Posted By: tigloon
Date Posted: 06-Apr-2009 at 23:39
I have written down only 'very little' of the studies that are made on the race called Turanids.I may give more studies made and still being made by international historians, linguistics specialists, antropologists, and archeologists. I want to remind you that history can change due to the archives of the nations, so it is best to find the most logical way by the help of science.No offance mate, but 'comment' is different, 'fact' is different. ------------- 'Peace at home, Peace in the world' Gazi M. Kemal ATATÜRK |