Israel attack Gaza, December 2008
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Topic: Israel attack Gaza, December 2008
Posted By: Ikki
Subject: Israel attack Gaza, December 2008
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 11:51
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7800985.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7800985.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7801662.stm
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Replies:
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 12:52
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Typical Zionist barbarity. ------------- |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 13:41
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Can't believe that the world is not reacting to this barbarity. Shouln't be there an ultimatum to Israel to stop this and if they fail to do so then NATO jets and Tomahawk missiles scramble over Tel Aviv? I mean, this did happen with Serbia... Oh, yes. Enjoy the holidays everyone... I'm sure the Palestinians do. ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 14:28
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Hello to you all Why would the world even bother? The world order is paralysed, it only intervens when Oil (Iraq), gas (central Asia) or a regime that threatens their domination exists. Now if the darling of the international community is commiting such acts against people who are irrelevent in the world balance of powers who is even going to ask for a second opinion? As much as I regret saying it, Hamas isn't exactly innocent either, they knew this was coming and worse, they knew Israel particularly was above international law yet the brotherhood mentality still dominates their actions. God only help those 1.4 million trapped in the world's biggest prison.Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 14:55
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and a happy new year to you! ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 16:23
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the Gaza situation is disgusting and it is hard to make sense of it all while our own governments say nothing but soft words like 'we implore Israel' or whatever. On one hand i understand why people in Gaza, prisoners, just want to hurt Israel in anyway they can, but on the other hand Hamas needs to stop the hostilities as well. They must bear some responsibility for security and safety of their citizens*. They are inviting what is predictable Israeli action so why should we be shocked this time over any other? They may try to emulate Hezbollah and they might even beat Israel in Gaza with blood all over the streets but it wont change anything. they are screwing themselves and playing into Israel. Hamas and Israel need each other so the can re-confirm their hard line political positions. *remember these guys are the elected government ------------- 
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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 16:38
| It's high time to just bulldoze everything for a mile either side of the wall, declare it a DMZ, and move the blue helmets in. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 17:20
Good luck Israel!  ------------- 
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 20:34
Is Israel's response a little much, yes. Does that mean that people should overlook how the Palestinians are acting in provoking such actions, no.
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Posted By: Super Goat (^_^)
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 21:48
| So blockading Gaza is not provoking in the slightest bit right? |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 21:59
However Hamas has ideological interests in seeing their people provoke Israel. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 22:56
Pretty much, I have read through some of the reports from BBC, pretty horrid. As far as Abbas, he is nothing but a little puppet, if he had any b---s he would suck it up and stand up to Israel, perhaps then his own people would show him the respect he yearns for. As of now he is nothing but a local Governor who isn't doing much toward Palestinian unity or statehood. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:01
...well even the "Change" Democrats including Obama are scared of even mentioning anything critical... so we will have to see if anything will truly change in this disgusting barbarity that has gone on now far too long. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:07
Again... go spend a year in Palestine and you will see why they should "stop." They are nothing but a bunch of overly ideological thugs that are killing off an entire group of people and dwindling their territories day by day. Now Israel has a defense budget that is supported by some large donations and has a superb military... and you have a rock - now you throw that rock and get your entire family and the other 2 blocks shelled. What a proportionate response to the attacks... Oh please get off your moral high horse and see some reality. I am not saying Hamas is innocent, but it is not exactly like Israel has had the better part of the moral high ground in this conflict. If I come to your house take it, and make you live in the Garbage can next to the house for 3 generations and your grandchildren now grow up in there and cant do s--t about it, would you be so kind and accept my new stipulation (basically I keep the house you live in the bucket and rot with no hope for a future). I respect your input on the forum, but you have a very skewed and limited scope and view of the situation. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:07
No apparently it is a humanitarian action  ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:12
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http://www.jatonyc.org/ http://www.jatonyc.org/backinfo.html#minority http://www.jatonyc.org/backinfo.html#settlements http://www.jatonyc.org/backinfo.html#refugees Interesting links... ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:18
Hamas rockets hit their targets at such a miniscule percentile and they kill at a rate even less than that. Their rockets are nothing more than home-made science projects. I think you're more likely to get killed by a yak than by a Hamas rocket.
And Hamas was the elected government until immediately after the elections when Israel and the US/UK rejected the result, for no reason other than it didn't suit their political agenda. So Hamas is not recognized by the west, and if you remember a year or two ago Israel even declared Gaza a "hostile entity". But this goes back before Hamas was elected in 06'... Gaza has been more or less a concentration camp since the 80's.
But Hamas is protecting their people... fighting back, even on a small scale, against a colonizing entity which has rendered their native land into a concentration camp is (to my knowledge) the status quo in most situations. Look at the Warsaw ghetto uprisings.
Yes, lets just ignore the entire history of the conflict. Lets ignore the fact that a bunch of Europeans and North Americans decided to come to Asia to colonize and ethnically cleanse an entire nation. Lets ignore the fact they still don't recognize the native Palestinian state, while at the same time, not only urging recognition of Israel, but never putting limits on Israel's borders. Lets also ignore the fact that the Zionists have been waging almost non-stop military offensives for over 7 decades, and have occupied land from each of their neighbors at some point. Lets ignore the fact that the Zionist movement was neither nationalistic nor religious in nature. Lets ignore the fact that it was rejected outright by all Asian nationalist movements including Ghandi's India, making it ideologically out of touch with the reality of the continent. Lets ignore their secret nuclear weapons program, ignore all their land-grabs and massacres which still continue today in the form of West Bank walls and Gaza airstrikes. Maybe then we can make sense out of blaming Palestinians for "provoking such actions".
Quoted for truth. What do you expect from a movement which was in bed with imperialist powers from day one, and which has never put limits on its own borders? ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:31
 In case someone pull out a gun and kill you for e.g. calling him an idiot, don't worry, he's just "overreacting" pffff.... ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:46
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There is a problem in this debate, as one side, usually self-righteous
holier than thou folks (Usually leftists) wander along and come out
with a line like the first response to this thread, which doesn't
exactly help. Saying 'motherf*cking Joos' is about as productive. Most people with a heart can sympathise with families who are having their homes blown out by a rocket, irrelevant to which side of a wall they come from, or to what their annual income might be. But always blaming one side (Israel) oversimplifies the issue and lets some really bad apples (Hamas) think they can continue to have the moral high ground in every dispute. How do you deal with an adversary who won't recognise your right to existence?
I'm no 'zionist' or 'western capitalist pig', but sometimes enough is
enough already with the crazy rhetoric. Someone needs to grab someone
else by the hand and sit down like adults and work the god damn thing
out. Otherwise, like our grandparents have seen with us, our
grandchildren will be reading reports of another bomb in some town in
some place in Palestine. And there will still be people like Beylerbyi ready to jump onboard with a typically thoughtless and self-righteous remark.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2008 at 23:58
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I am just waiting what is Obama going to say about this attack.
Let's see if the change really comes, or it was just rethoric to win an election.
The U.S. is the only nation with the power to make Israel to reason. After all, Israel lives on subsidies from the U.S., so the official silence is just a form of complicity. ------------- |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 00:06
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http://africa.reuters.com/top/news/usnJOE4BR01X.html - http://africa.reuters.com/top/news/usnJOE4BR01X.html
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3998778/Israel-calls-up-6500-troops-amid-signs-of-ground-assault.html - http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/israel/3998778/Israel-calls-up-6500-troops-amid-signs-of-ground-assault.html
What do you know about the military capabilities of Hamás? Do you think is possible a performance in battle like Hezbulá in 2006? I suppose they have the typical soviet weaponry Aks-RPGs-RPKs, according with a israelí fellow of other forum Hamás has iranians instructors with they and they are launching Grad rockets into Ashkelón. But few of these weapons aren't good tactically... I suppose, if Hamás don't have RPG-29, they will use IEDs, mines, molotov cocktails...
Three scenarios if the ground attack is launched:
1. The Tzahal enter Gaza with few opposition, destroy the strategical weaponry, some palestinians die, and the situation the same than now.
2. The Tzahal enter Gaza but with a hard opposition, modern weaponry take down their Merkavas and should retreat.
3. The Tzahal enter Gaza and encounter a hard opposition based on close combat and home made weaponry, the palestinians suffer great casualties. This is the blodiest scenario. ------------- |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 00:08
I agree with you, althought is possible that Obama don't want complicty or don't like the situaton, the silence mean acceptance of that situation, "quien calla otorga" you know ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 01:58
Well the thing is that Yes! the Zionists caused this to begin with and do not seem like they want to stop, not that the Bible Belt protestant movements do not help either. So uhm... when you start something it is your fault, the fact that it continued so long is debatable, but the constant encroachments and undermining statehood, human rights, etc... isn't exactly the right way to show us that there are two sides to this story. No one is saying that the Jewish victims of violence are not a bad thing, it is a horrible thing, but it doesn't change the fact of whose fault this is. ------------- |
Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 02:26
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The use of term Zionist is a form of antisemitism.
You have a superstitious fear of using the name Israel. And by the way, the Quran itself is supporting Zionism. -------------  |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 02:32
In my case, I criticize the state of Israel for its actions. That state is secular, at least in theory, and the world has perfect right to judge its actions against other people, like we do with any other state.
Even more, it is not even the Israel people who must we judge, but the current government, and its decisions. ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 02:37
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Es Bih, I agree completely! Personally, I don't believe it was ever right or sensible to 'create' a Jewish homeland and to effectively eject those people who lived there prior to it. The state of Israel has no ethical foundations in legitimacy. However, the fact of the matter is that Israel is there now, and that its not going anywere. And the fact that so many of its citizens have set roots there perhaps gives it a certain legitimacy it once lacked. However, rehashing the events of 1948 doesn't further the debate in any way... These debates have been had time and time again. Its time to make new historical events - which don't involve rockets and bombs. ------------- |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 02:39
I actually think that trying to assign absolute fault is precisely the form of oversimplification that Parnell was talking about, and it certainly doesn't help things. The fact remains that the actions of the government of Israel, as well as the actions of Hamas, Hezbollah, and the like, only serve to exacerbate a problem that is complicated enough to begin with. It is quite easy to accuse, and both sides in this conflict have shown no reluctance to do so. The problem is that this leaves us where we were to begin with. If the nation of Israel manages to hold its territory, and the world is still around, in a few centuries, they will be considered the historically legitimate rulers of the region by the vast majority. The concept of historical "ownership" is a complicated thing. This makes the plea for reasonable judgment, so eloquently presented by Parnell, of the greatest import. Until people stop lecturing about the situation and start thinking about it, it will continue to get worse. Trying to set the question in terms of one-party fault is detrimental to the dialogue that needs to take place. I'm not saying that I have a solution; indeed, I haven't heard one that is anywhere close to satisfactory. What I am saying is that one sided demands and proclamations will only make things worse. Both sides are at "fault" in this, and both are guilty of providing their critics with a great deal of polemical fodder. -Akolouthos |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 02:45
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The problem is not that there are other partners in crime there are problems that the most oppressive and the one with the biggest armament gets away with it, while the one that has 20% of the impact gets the bad wrap. Isn't that the warped situation? ------------- |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 03:00
I understand, es_bih, and I have my own problems with the actions of the Israeli government -- regarding the oppression of Christians, as well as other humanitarian issues. That said, increasingly we have an ill-informed polemic developing, wherein governments and popular support in the West are the exact inverse of those in the Arab world, and wherein academics in the West simply adopt, often without rational examination, much of the anti-Israeli propaganda from the Arab world. You will find that Israel is actually the party that gets a "bad wrap" in intellectual circles in the West, sometimes justly, sometimes unjustly. None of this is helpful; until we abandon the whole dynamic in which we have traditionally contextualized this issue, we are doomed to the failures of the past. Israel is here to stay; Palestine should be made secure as well. Until Israelis can be guaranteed freedom from rocket attacks, there will be repercussions; until Palestinians can be guaranteed freedom from incursions and repressive measures, there will be repercussions. There is no one "villain" here. -Akolouthos |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 03:43
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irony is Hamas was supported by Israel in its early days as a counter weight to Arafat. Another example of using religiously focused political organisations* as a weapon and then having it blow up in your face. *hopefully that term is accpetable to Omar  -------------
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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 06:30
Hardly, they self-describe as such. In and of itself, it's not a pejorative term - simply the name of a political movement. The term was originally coined by Nathan Birnbaum, himself a Zionist at the time, and was since taken up by groups like the Zionist Congresses and the World Zionist Organization. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 06:40
The Qu'ran states that one innocent life lost amounts to the same as all of humanity lost, thus I am sure I know my own religion a tad bit more than yourself  . Such a theological standpoint denotes obviously that the Qu'ran would not support the "zionist" actions undertaken, o you know throwing people off their property, killing off innocents, and such...I do not have a superstitious fear of Zionism nor is the term Zionist anti-semetic, as for one, to be anti-semetic it would have to apply to all semetic peoples of who the Jews (and even then only the semetic Jews) are a very small minority off. Zionism in its purest form is the creation of a homeland in a territory where the deascendants of the Jews and other people around there that stayed lands. It is a religious ideology, backed with a heavy dosage of secularism via the European channel of secular ethnic Jews moving back in and around WWII. And thus transformed into a more imperialist form of nationalism as evidenced in the last few decades. Now again Hamas isn't exactly guilt-free, nor are acts of terrorism, but please spare us your overly enlightened (of course a tad bit of sarcasm implied ) opinion. I know Christians as well as Muslim Palestinains and none of them are too fond of strangers living in their homes (literary in a lot of cases).  But of course you are the saviour of this discussion as usual... I guess... I will leave you now with that to ponder, not that I expect you to leave a bit more open minded that has proven futile countless times. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 06:41
Uhm Menu says no thus Menu knows best  ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 06:46
The problem is that unless the group that did that brings more to the table than just talk and byzantine politics * with a good bit of ass kissing via Pat and crew * we won't see that happen in the near future. No one with half a brain would say that Israel should go. It is there now and has to be dealt with in real time, not in a pre 47 mentality. You must understand it is kind of hard for the other side to just lay down their pathetic excuse for arms as there is no real concept of a future on the horizon, especially with subduing themselves. You don't go to a ghetto and give someone a second hand book that springs the whole neighborhood back to vibrant and viable life, you eliminate the reason for that decrepit state of existence (economic, social, etc..) and then the downward spiral is reversed. Same situation here, but a differenct concept. ------------- |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 06:49
I'm of a divided mind about this. Creating Israel was a bad idea, but I think the fault lies strictly with the Western Allies, who did little or nothing during or after the war to provide guarantees for the safety of Jewish populations. Immigrants were turned away, and attempts to set aside land in places like Canada were rejected. We dumped the problem on the Middle East, and now look down our noses at the participants to the conflict as if we're above that sort of thing. As far as it's legitimacy - I don't think a state can legitimately be founded on an ethno-religious basis, at least, not a state that claims to be a member of Western civilization. On the other hand, it is legitimate in the sense that there is no credible political alternative. Giving the whole territory over to Hamas and hoping they'll be nice to the Jewish inhabitants is an exercise in wishful thinking, even if it could be done. Israel has certainly violated the safety, human rights and very life of Palestinians, but let's keep the scale in mind; as conflicts go, this one is fairly low-intensity (since 2000, there have been less than 6000 fatalities .... contrast with Congo, where 2-2.5 million have died in the same period). Under Hamas, I fear, this number would expand rapidly as Palestinians sought revenge for years of oppression. What's needed is international intervention, something along the lines of UNFICYP in Cyprus, a permanent mission. |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 06:53
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Hello to you all
The problem in Palestine is simple enough and complex enough to understand.
Hamas is an ideological group yes, but it proved throughout the years it was open to negotiations and settlements. Yes it was dedicated to ending Israel but it was dedicated to ending Israel as a state not to kill jews or bring another Holocaust. In their vision they are not different than Shas except Shas leaders (who call for the total expulsion of non Jews from all Palestine and some of their Rabbis have issues religious rulings justifing the murder of civilians even if they were months old) are welcomed as responsible politicians in the White house and the EU. Hamas on the other hand are terrorists and anti-democratic even if it was democratically elected.
In the past 6 months Hamas proved itself a responsible partner having not only ended firing rockets as the ceae fire dictated but also cracked on those who did. Over 20 members of Islamic Jihad died in confrontations with Hamas over this issue. Yet the US/EU were silent on the near daily breaking of the agreement which killed some 50 civilians in that same period. When the blame was put on Hamas by the entire world for the expiration of the ceasefire and they responded to agression by firing tin rockets that 90% of them fall on empty fields they became the agressors. Now why should anyone demand the Arabs as a whole and Palestinians particularly to trust Israel when they clearly don't stick to the agreements they signed themselves?
AL-Jassas
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 07:37
It's rather a pejorative term in the today context and anyway, it has not place in a discussion like this. With the exception of Muslim countries most of the world consider the state of Israel legitimate and the reason the Muslims have other opinion is obviously religious. Its a religious conflict, not political.
You may know that this idea is taken by Muhammad from a Jewish religious text The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mishnah - Mishnah say(Sanhedrin 4: 5): For this reason, man [i.e. the first human being] was created alone to teach that whoever destroys a single life is as though he had destroyed an entire universe, and whoever saves a single life is as if he had saved an entire universe.
As long as the term Zionists is used by Muslims and conspirationist believers and not by other political representatives or public voices, even they usually are adversary of the state of Israel it can hardly be said is something else than a religious or superstitious atitude.
If its a religious ideology, how do you explain that most religious Jews are anti-Zionists? The Jewish supporter of Zionism are from the lesser religious segment of the Jewish people. And I repeat: Quran itself says that this land is given by God to Jews. See http://ziontruth.blogspot.com/2005/05/quran-agrees-with-zionism.html - here all those passages. ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 07:47
Bring back the Saudi peace proposal as the foundation. -------------
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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 08:13
Sorry but this is just incorrect. "Zionist" is NOT a term used exclusively by opponents of Israel at all, and it never has been. For example: http://www.wzo.org.il/en/default.asp - http://www.wzo.org.il/en/default.asp http://www.doingzionism.org.il/ - http://www.doingzionism.org.il/ http://www.zionistarchives.org.il/ZA/pMainE.aspx - http://www.zionistarchives.org.il/ZA/pMainE.aspx There are literally thousands of other examples. The term has acquired disreputable connotations due to the behaviour of its adherents, but that doesn't change the fact that it IS the correct term for the political movement. Dropping or changing words because they are inconvenient is an Orwellian manipulation of language ...
Wrong, only a few very small Orthodox groups oppose Zionism. The majority of Orthodox sects support Zionism. It's not exactly a religious ideology; there are many secular Zionists. On the other hand, it has pseudo-religious elements. The notion that the Jewish homeland HAD to be in the Levant is purely religious in origin, and was a tenet adopted early in the history of the movement (I can't remember which Zionist Congress at which it was adopted, but all those who disagreed were expelled from future congresses). |
Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 08:41
What behaviour? Do you refer to the foundation of Israel or to the way Israeli authorities manage the problems of Palestinians?
I said that the most religious, I should said most conservative. But they are not very small, 600,000-800,000 out of 5.4 million Israeli Jews, not to speak about Jews outside Israel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi Anyway, you should learn about the relation between Anti-Zionism and the new Antisemitism: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism ------------- |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 08:53
This would mean that a huge number of Jews are "anti-semitic" simply because they believe that the Jewish return is a spiritual rather than literal concept, or that the rebirth of Israel must be a divine (rather than earthly) event. More importantly, your argument is extremely anachronistic and may have been true in the 1920s but doesn't apply to the present day. Even among the Haredi, very few oppose Zionism (other than Neturei Karta, which is a tiny fraction of the Haredi). Likewise Zionism has since ceased to be a purely secularist movement. |
Posted By: Beylerbeyi
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 14:21
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The West is totally biased about Israel. Israel was founded in 1948 on Palestinian land after ethnical cleansing of the Palestinians. Since then it kept the Palestinians as prisoners in their own land, with full Western support. It is an ethno-religious state which keeps 10000 political prisoners in jails, many of whom are children. Since 1967 it has been illegally expanding into what remained of the Palestinian territory and has no plan whatsoever to give up that land. It may nominally give half of it in form of isolated bantustants to the Palestinians, and move its own Palestinian minority there, but will continue to control the resources and the borders and the airspace indefinitely. Zionist brutality and de facto apartheid over the decades spawned the violent and religious resistance we see today in Palestine. Yet the Westerners blame the victims and call Israel 'the only democracy in the Middle East' with a straight face. So I conclude this is what Western 'democracy' means: rule of the white (or in this case 'honorary white') master race. Western bias is most obvious in comparisons with China and Tibet. China took over Tibet the same time Israel took over Palestine. Chinese treated and continue to treat the Tibetans infinitely better. They are opposed by a religious organisation led by Dalai Lama which the West considers a great hero, while both the governments and the press savagely attacks China because it holds 100 Tibetan adults as political prisoners. As I wrote before Israel holds 10000 prisoners including children, runs the Palestinian territories as open air prisons, and kills them whenever they disobey the prison guards, which the West calls legitimate self-defence. The world (not only the Muslim majority nations) recognises the crimes of Israel in UN General Assembly meetings, but any action or strong condemnation against Israel is prevented by its Western patrons in the Security Council. Still a few decision somehow managed to pass against them, which they ignore anyway, again protected by their patrons. Israeli bias in the West (especially in the US) is so strong that even the slightest critisism of Israel is unacceptable. To critisise the actions of Zionists (who are followers of a certain ideology, regardless of country of origin or religion) is unacceptable. They can never be wrong. If you critisise them you must be an anti-semite, or a Muslim. I read the Haaretz (an Israeli newspaper) now and then and they have more critisism of Israel than American papers. I find that incredible, but also a proof of Israel's role in the Middle East as an imperialist outpost. ------------- |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 14:37
Why do you identify West with USA? In Europe the situation is exactly the opposite, the public opinion support usually palestinians althought without real action. ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 14:43
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AFAIK in Greece sympathy, even at a government level, is much more in favour of the Palestinians, but then again they tend to be 'anti whatever' the USA is involved with. I think Bey is talking about the government level. The french came out with some stronger language however our own Aussie gov simply repeated the white house line.
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Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 15:50
I'm getting a bit sick of you referring to westerners as one monolithic group. We clearly don't exist as one streaming mass of consciousness, and are as diverse as the stars in the sky. So settle down with this rubbish please.
The 'west' probably sympathises with Tibetans more because by and large they have adopted a peaceful form of resistance to Chinese oppression. And they have a perfectly legitimate right to their religion and religious liberty. 'Westerners' feel the same about Palestine but can't stomach the violence and the physical force resistence which rightly or wrongly is predominant there. There's a big difference and while your attempt to compare the two struggles is brave, its lacking a lot of understanding about the two very different situations.
Similarily, among people like you, to criticise Palestine, or Hamas in any way is to be a racist, an Imperialist, and a heartless bastard. Two cheeks of the same arse if you ask me. These are the double standards I'm talking about. Braindead polemics with no real mind for working at a solution. All you have is outrage and condemnation which although very healthy and rational, doesn't get anyone anywere but creates more ill feeling, more despair and less hope for the future. Saggy minds like yours obsessed with the past is exactly whats wrong with any peace process in the middle east and why they always break down. ------------- |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 16:23
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Why are most of the posters on here so critcal of Israel? The Jewish state by committing to operations, such as what is now occurring in Gaza it's only defending it's self from aggressive actions undertaken by Islamist organizations such as Hamas. Israel and the West has nothing to be guilty of in my opinion of what operations are now occurring. However I must say that I am dismayed at the civilian casualties occurring, none the less though I think little can be done to avoid that. |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 16:23
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Hello Parnell
First of all, Palestinians don't need you permission not that of the world to defend themselves. Israel occupied the west Bank and Gaza strip for 60+ years. Resistence only started in the late 60s and early 70s. Before that, before 67, Israel averaged some 100 Palestinians a month and the world stood watching. Sharon when he was the military commander of Gaza in the 70s after the 73 war killed over 700 Palestinians in less than 6 months and all of them were civilians. The world said nothing. In the 80s during the 1st Intifada, Israeli soldiers were filmed and shown on world television massacring peaceful demonstrators, and the world said nothing. Only after suicide bombers and military action did Israel settle. Unfortunate as it may it shows the world cares not about the Palestinians so Bey is right.
Bey is also right about Tibet. I suggest you read about pre-China Tibet and really know how the good hearted similing Buddhist monks ran the country. Those same smiling monks lead the burning of a mosque during the riots early this year killing all who were inside for no reason except they were Hui (muslim Han). Those same smiling monks lead lynching mobs targeting school age girls for no reason other than they are Han. They burned and looted business for no reason other than they were Han. Yet you and the western media will never hear about this or even worse, hear it but decide to do nothing. Nobody condemned the monks for murdering over 100 innocent people in one day but when Chinese riot police deal with those criminals with a velvet glove the west cries foul. Sorry man but Bey was on the point.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 16:28
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Hi Kevin People are criticising Israel for a reason. Read my post in the previous page and you will know why. Had Israel been acting legitimately I will be the first to support Israel's strike.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 16:48
I understand, However Hamas is an organization that can not be trusted even though they are more slightly willing to negotiate with Israel. Keep in mind they have made power plays against the more moderate Abbas which resulted in a Palestinian Civil War, not to mention Hama's harsh language and erratic political behavior. Of course I condemn and distrust most of the Jewish extremists also in Israel. |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 16:57
NO, he is not. I repeat the public opinion in Europe favour palestinians. The governments only say "this and that things, both sides, are wrong", but for example, let me show you the editorial of the main newspaper in Spain, El País:
http://www.elpais.com/articulo/opinion/hacer/Gaza/elpepiopi/20081229elpepiopi_1/Tes - http://www.elpais.com/articulo/opinion/hacer/Gaza/elpepiopi/20081229elpepiopi_1/Tes
"What to do in Gaza?
Lo que hace ya lo sabemos. Condenar la violencia de ambas partes, en unos casos, cargando el acento contra el agresor de mayor capacidad mortal, Israel, y en otros, buscando una remota equivalencia entre los actos de ambos contendientes. Y hoy ya resuena todo ello con el eco de la inutilidad más absoluta. El Consejo de Seguridad, por su parte, se preocupa, exhorta al fin de la violencia, y en ocasiones condena, pero sin ignorar que de buenas intenciones está empedrado el infierno. "What they do (the governments) we know. Condemn the violence of both sides, sometimes, putting the main point on the most powerful aggressor, other times, searching a far equivalence between the acts of both. But today, all this sound with the echo of the absolute uselessness. The Security Council (UN), is worried and call to the end of the violence and, sometines condemn, but don't ignore that with good intentions are covered the Hell"
---
"...podrían restringir el comercio normal -político y económico- entre potencias democráticas en sus tratos con el Estado judío, hasta que muestre una seria voluntad negociadora. Bush padre negó a Israel el aval de un fuerte crédito e Israel se avino a participar en la conferencia de Madrid en 1991."
"... (USA and EU) they can restrict the commerce (polytical and economical) between democratic powers and the Jewish State, until Israel show a goodwill negotiator. Bush senior negate to Israel money and Israel come to take part in Madrid Conference 1991."
----
"...así como invitar a los países que mayor confianza le inspiren a Israel, Estados Unidos, quizá Holanda, a mandar fuerzas de vigilancia, control e interposición entre dos entidades políticas, Palestina e Israel, con las fronteras de 1967."
"... and invite to countries who inspire confidence to Israel, USA and probably Netherlands, to send interposition forces to watch and control, this two politycal entities Palestine and Israel, with the frontiers of 1967."
Anybody hope this could happen..."
-------------------------------------------
The European Union has been supporting the palestinians in the last 15 years, specially to Palestinian Nathional Authority. For example, only two months ago:
http://espanol.news.yahoo.com/s/21102008/54/internacional-cisjordania-renovar-red-ctrica-financiaci-n-uni-n-europea.html - http://espanol.news.yahoo.com/s/21102008/54/internacional-cisjordania-renovar-red-ctrica-financiaci-n-uni-n-europea.html
"Cisjordania renovaría su red eléctrica con financiación de la Unión Europea
...
Próximamente la Autoridad Nacional Palestina de Recursos y Energía (PENRA) pondrá en marcha un amplio programa para rehabilitar la red y hacerla más segura y eficiente. El proyecto, para el que la Unión Europea ha donado 10,15 millones de euros a través de su programa PEGASE, llegará a 168 campos de refugiados y decenas de pueblos y ciudades cisjordanas.... "
---
The West Bank will renovate the electrical net with money of the European Union
In the future the PNA of Resources and Energy (**) will begin a program for rebuild the net and make it more safe and efficient.
The project, with 10,15 milliones euros donated by the European Union with her program PEGASE, will cover 168 refugee camps and dozens of villages and cities from the West Bank"
-------------------------------------------------------- ------------- |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 17:12
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Hamas's problem is deeper than what you think. Their problem isn't extremist because they are not. Making them in a league with Al-Qaeda is wrong because ideologically those two groups are totally apart. There are two wings in Hamas currently. A wing woed by Syria and Iran and these want to transform Hamas into a political tool for both countries especially Syria. And a wing with a genuine desire for settlement and peace.
When Hamas came into power the second wing was at its strongest. With all the good will in the world they gave all the possible concessions, even giving up demanding to form a government despite they were the clear winners of the election. What did the west say about that?
They accepted that the Israeli government having parties filled with racists (Avigdor Lieberman) and fanatics and welcomed them as responsible politicians but denied that privilage to Hamas which its exremists were more moderate than the moderates in the current Israeli government. Gaza was under UN sanctioned siege, the Palestinian government despite being lead by Fatah was demonised and refused by the west. It was boycotted. Israel was given full reigns to do whatever they liked with Hamas and what was even worse, the west supported people within Fatah to undermine the authority of the elected government and institute a coup which nearly happened. Now Hamas being fought on two sides, one by western puppets and the other by the west itself threw itself into the Iranian-Syrian hands and currently Hamas is lead by the Syrian puppet Mishaal while the current PM (Haniyyah) is under siege (this is by the way why Israel didn't kill him yet, Egypt protects this guy and it was Egypt which masterminded the current attack).
In the past Hamas has shown it can strike a deal and keep it, in the past 20 year, did Israel show the same behaviour?
I don't think so.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 17:15
That's essentially the core of the problem right there. It's not about how the Palestinians resist Israeli oppression or whether they are violent or nonviolent (we never minded Mandela's ANC, did we?), it's about the fact they don't seem to be able to form a credible political alternative. Without that, a solution is hard to imagine. It would be irresponsible to everyone in the region - the Palestinians included - to let Hamas take the reins of state power. We certainly can't just hope that they'll become more legitimate once they get there, that's how we got Mugabe (among others!) In that sense, things really are in the hands of the Palestinians, though I don't believe it has anything to do with whether they resist violently or not - it has to do with producing quality leadership. They have no Nelson Mandela, no Michael Collins. As far as Israel, yes they seem to behave in a heavy handed fashion and seem disinterested in a solution, but on the other hand, we do pay perhaps too much attention to this conflict. As conflicts go, it's relatively minor, both sides are quite the media whores: a few hundred killed in Israel gets more airtime and print space than an entire war with millions dead in Africa. And I think a big part of the problem lies in the importance we attach to the conflict: that's what fuels the arms being sent to Israel, for instance. Calming the global hysteria over this conflict is crucial, because the alarmism and rhetoric involved only serves to escalate things on the ground. |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 17:16
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Hello Ikki When I say the west I mean the media, the elites, the governments etc. I don't mean the common man on the street. The reason for talking about the west in this language is explained in the above post.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 17:25
Hello Al-Jassas, Believe me, I can understand where you are coming from. As an Arab, you naturally have a sympathy for your kin in Palestine. As a muslim I'm sure you sympathise with fellow Muslims bearing the brunt of oppression. I live along the border with Northern Ireland, and although I am from the generation after violence I've grown up with the tales of the IRA and a certain amount of romanticism associated with the physical force resistance tradition. also, like any 'generation-after' I do have a degree of wooly minded optimism associated with the future and peace in my country but also in the world. I can understand that someone embroiled in the conflict can see no other way out than to shoot someone or indeed to blow themselves up in a suicide attack. Even so, Northern Ireland even at its worst was no Palestine so even were I of that generation I still might not be able to understand completely. And the poverty is Northern Ireland never reached the dizzying depths we have in some places in Palestine today. It all boils one very inequitably broth, and I understand this. All I am doing is trying to challenge certain assumptions by partisans deeply involved in the conflict for one reason or another, be he an onlooker, an Arab, a Jew or a warrior. I don't pretend to have any substantive answers. ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 18:11
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I skimmed through the thread, and see everyone calling Israel Barbaric. Which maybe true. But they have been using a more second strke policy rather then first strike. It doesn't matter how miniscule the first attacks were, Palstinians should know by now that when you prick Israel, they are going to use large airstrikes. It's the samething over and over and over again! Hello, common sense here, don't shoot at them!
Let me ask you this, if you touch a hot oven, are you going to touch it again when you know it's going to burn you? It's the samething here, and we've seen it before. Obviously throwing rockets at a neighbor with a attitude that doesn't mind hitting back harder, well, it
should be something you would conclude doesn't work at all at any level. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 18:30
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Yes and Washington should have just given up after 4 serious blows and retreats... all within weeks. Point is that there was an ideology there and that people walked from Georgia without shoes or proper equipment yearning for self government. Why do you think that the Palestinians would react any different in a similar situation. Not to mention that the British didn't really oppress us when compared to the Palestinian example.
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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 18:37
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Yeah, theres a huge difference there. You guys were arguing it's a few guys using homemade science expierments to shoot at Israel. So, you fighting tanks with sticks and stones. We are in the modern world, what Worked for Washington, doesn't work for Palenstinians. The idea of self governance may be the same, but thats where it ends in similarities.
But History does keep repeating, ALOT I'd say. And each time it's only made things worse, again, atleast I'd say. Hamas pricks them, and Israel bites back a whole lot harder, and even though you know the reaction, the same one that happens time and time again, Israel is called a barbarian. Maybe true, but hello, these actions are only provoking them! ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 18:42
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I could be mistaken, but I seem to recall reading somewhere -- can't remember where -- that Hamas was the party that refused to renew the cease fire. Is this so? If it is, I don't think Israel can shoulder all of the blame for the situation -- although both parties routinely violate the terms of their agreements. Could someone please elaborate?
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 18:54
Well said...But that should exclude walls as well. -------------  
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 18:58
Greece has sympathy for Palestine before the "any anti-USA" feeling broke out. Just have a look at the Greek newspapers of the early 50s... So, basically you don't need to be eather muslim nor anti-jew (Greece had a large jewish community before WWII) to critisize Israel. -------------
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 20:43
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There is a problem with the whole "Hamas shouldn't attack Israel if it knows how it will react", or with people who say the Palestinians should be more peaceful. First of all, nothing has been achieved during times of peace, mostly because any reasonable settlement will have a UN vote where the entire world votes for the two-state solution while Israel, US and UK veto it by themselves, and there is an extensive record of this. Thats one. Second, during times of peace, Gaza has not become any less of a concentration camp, and in the West Bank Zionist land-grabs have not stopped-- if I'm not mistaken they accelerate during peacetime. Then you have the walling off of Palestinians from their own land-- Israeli citizens are allowed freedom of access and colonization of other land, but Palestinians don't even have the freedom of movement on their own land for (literally) more than a couple of miles. All this happens during peacetime. So what incentive does the average Palestinian have for peace? Is this situation really as balanced as some of you are trying to describe?
Also, some "balanced" commentators are saying Hamas should recognize Israel and renounce violence and this will all get better. Has Israel ever recognized Palestine? No. Has Israel ever put limits on its own borders? No. Has Israel renounced violence? No. But who gets sanctioned and blockaded? Only the Palestinians! So stop trying to act like the situation is so balanced--- there are extensive records of casualties and landgrabs and the casualties are greater than 30 to 1 in favor of Israel. As for the landgrabbing and squatting, well, if a country starts off as a colony, attacks and evicts natives, never renounces the practice, and never puts limits on its borders, then can you really expect true peace from such a side?
If anything, the native state (Palestine) should get precedence. But no, Palestine must recognize Israel, stop defending itself, all while Israel is free to deny Palestinian statehood and carry out raids and continue colonization. If Palestinians resist, or elect a government who resists, they get blockaded and sanctioned, left in a pit of poverty and surrounded on all sides, while Israel is treated as a legitimate entity and given weapons to further its aims. So painting this as a balanced scenario is ridiculous. You can't put Hamas on par with Israel, when Israel has traditionally held the Hamas positions of not renouncing violence and not recognizing Palestine, except on a much deadlier scale and for a much longer period of time. And Israel held those positions first, in fact even before their state existed. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 20:45
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It was Israel which refused to impliment the conditions of the ceasefire in the first place and broke it over 100 times in the last 6 months including total closure of every exist to or from Gaza for nearly a month and without any reasons. Hamas accepted a two day deadline on Friday that should have ended today and were going to accept the Egyptian deal and annouce it on Sunday. What happened was that Israel attacked on Saturday (Sabbath remember) despite giving assurances it will waite for Hamas's response.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 22:33
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Im personally with Israel here. I mean what are they to do? Any nation would become angry if makeshift missiles suddenly rained down from a hostile territory, especially one that you hold in contempt and especially if the attacks come from an elected govt(meaning the people gave some backing to this). Hamas is doing this so they can keep support, that way Israel can always appear as a radical threat. They are looking for martyrdom. |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 23:23
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Does it matter if the missiles are makeshift, or professionally made and fired from jets and helicopters? |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 23:35
Armenian Survival, you're raw  but you summarized it damn well. The problem is not that Hamas is out of control sometimes, the real problem created Hamas and peoples anger. So Hamas, is just a problem created by the initial problem, created by Israel and not palestine. I'm also pissed off with some Israeli woman minister who said "Unfortunately some innocent people will pay for what Hamas did" and just turned her back and left. WTF!!!-------------
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 23:38
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And what do you want, Israel to cease existing or what? What can make Hamas stop sending missiles? ------------- |
Posted By: Ikki
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 23:45
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/27/politics/main4687681.shtml - http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/12/27/politics/main4687681.shtml
 ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2008 at 23:45
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 00:22
No, but put themselves into the Palestinian possition and see what could be a good handshake. Palestine has lost a lot and compromised (also by force) a lot. How much is Israel ready to compromise to reach peace? I mean peace, not "peace". Btw...This is what Swedish press says today: "The attacks create new terrorists" http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=3561&a=868765 - http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=3561&a=868765 Is that true or false? Sometimes i feel the west is trying to bypass criticism towards Israel. Anything that has to do with Muslims seems so distant, foreign and bad to the western ideas. Remember, the area of palestine has been repeatetly pillaged through the ages. Have anyone thought how "The history of Palestine" would look like if a neutral third party would write it? It would be a damn mess... If Israel do not compromise a lot, i see only one ending...Sorry for being raw but lets face it. The palestinians will fight to the end, cause they do not feel free and even if things get better they won't be living a life like the one we in this forum live. They will, one day get exterminated and we will be there watching. -------------
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 00:51
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Another article i found... It is an interview with the ambassador of Israel in Stockholm. http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=3561&a=868696 - http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=3561&a=868696 Bryr ni er om det?Translation (on the continuation of the question about the civilians lost): Don't you care about that?So, according to the ambassador there's official support for these actions from the US? So, a "reliable peace process" will settle when a currently elected goverment and Iran are defeated? So, is Fattah a more reliable candidate mr Benny Dagan or is the almighty planted third party from outer space the best solution? Are all these serious comments or is it me that has no humor? -------------
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 00:52
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Hamas's only leverage is to act in the interests of it's Syrian and Iranian paymasters. That is where their money comes from so they have no other choice.
All of us have encountered situations where bullies have been involved; so is Israel a bully? So what if she is? Some are stronger and have more chops than others do. This is not a schoolyard, it is international politics.
If you spit in the bully's face, you cannot be surprised when you get your teeth kicked in. Hamas does others' bidding because they would starve otherwise. When Israel reacts, AE gets all upset, someone writes an editorial and the UN may pass another worthless resolution. (Blue helmets between the sides?....Please.)
One would think that if you fire rockets into Israel, you would expect the reaction of a far stronger force. So...firing rockets into Israel is virtuous? good policy? a reflection of military might? No, one would think it is stupidity.
I don't think the Hamas Palestinians are stupid, I think they are in despair, and their puppetmasters know they can make them dance and do the bleeding as well or they starve. The Arabs and other interests have been using the Palestinians for their own purposes and cynically letting them take it on the chin for many decades. It has always been, as it remains, a publicity game to them.
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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 01:27
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You can't really judge situations like this accurately without the broader context. Even if we were to judge it as an isolated incident - which it is not - it's not as if Hamas acted without provocation. Hamas offered Israel a ceasefire in return for lifting a blockade of food and basic consumer goods to the Gaza Strip, Israel turned it down, and what followed was an exchange of hostilities - a story that's been repeated many times. Also note that it's a calculated situation where the outcomes were already understood and Hamas was maneuvered into the position it's in: Israel is having an election in early January. Currently, a relatively moderate PM (Olmert) is in power but Netanyahu, a more extremist character, is campaigning on a platform of taking more severe action, so Olmert wants to ensure that it's not an effective wedge issue by making a demonstration of force against the Palestinians. Politics!! This, too, shows that Hamas isn't politically sound. If they were, they would have been able to control their membership and resist the provocation. As it stands, Hamas cannot actually prevent its extremist elements from taking action; that's why it is so easily manipulated. |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 09:14
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Hello to you all
I think AS nailed it in his post above but I think there are certain points that need to be clarified.
If Israel is defending itself, why attack prisons?
If Israel is defending itself, why distroy Gaza university?
If Israel is defending itself, why distroy Gaza harbour?
If Israel is defending itself, why attack hospitals and target several ambulances?
If Israel is defending itself, why strike schools with missles dspite they are miles aways from any potential firing sight?
If Israel is defending itself, why distroy an entire civilian block (this is just an example) in Rafah where all people are members of Fatah (rivals of Hamas) which is 60 km from the nearest Israeli town (Hamas's best rockets have a range of 20 km)?
If Israel is defending itself, why blow the roads and briges connected different parts of Gaza?
If Israel is defending itself, why distory power stations?
Israel isn't "defending" anything. They broke the cease fire over 100 times (both major and minor) before it expired and killed some 50+ Palestinians (most were civilians as usual) during that "cease fire" (brows the BBC during that time and you will know). They layed siege preventing anything from entering Gaza depite pledging to the international community and signing papers proving that they wouldn't and yet the US has the audacity to blame Hamas for starting the current crisis?
Finally applying the sick and twisted logic of "Hamas is the elected government so the people are getting what they voted for" is a typical double standards. All the suicide bombing that Hamas did then are legitimate since the Israeli elected the Hero of Sabra and Shatila with a margin higher than that of Hamas if the same logic is used.
AL-Jassas |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 09:52
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pikeshot1600 put it best. The people who are at fault are the Palestinians. They are weak. That geopolitically speaking is a death sentence. unpleasent but true. ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 15:43
Forget the the blockades for second and look at the history of retaliation from Israel! Rockets hit them and barely even hurt them, and Israel causes destruction on a large scale. What is the outcome everytime? Palistine is worse off. So whats my point, these attacks by Hamas are pointless, they hurt their people, and every time they do it, it's the same outcome. Yet knowing this will happen, people still blame Israel for something they were provoked into, they obviously have a you hit me I'll hit you alot harder policy, again, history shows that too.
And you bring up politics. Yeah, that can be apart of this. But you are the guys making Israel out to be a barbaric country, so even if these elections weren't right around the corner, then their responce would be the same, right? ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 15:58
its like deciding to throw spears agianst people with guns but never geting the chance to use guns because your to busy getting smashed in the fight using spears.. stupid stuff.
This isnt about palistinains being equal to isrealis, the reality is they're not. So you can say they should just sit there with arms folded not wanting to talk ( as equals) while they lose more and more, i diasgree. They have no other option but to talk and gain the moral high ground. You now why? because every other high ground is isreali occupied and there is nothing they or their so called arab 'freinds' can do about it.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/12/28/AR2008122801277.html - |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 17:03
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Hello Leo
Save the WP crap for other people, I live in the region and have enough access to really know what the Israelis want, we weren't born yesterday you know.
The "generous" Israeli offer is total BS. Israel behaves as it if from its own good will and from its own god given international law mandated rights it is offering "compromises".
Palestinians (including Arafat and Abbas) don't demand yellow ponies or geese that lay golden eggs. They even don't demand the UN mandated and internationally agreed upon (By the US, USSR, UK and incidentally Israel) right for 45% of historical Palestine. They just accept Israel returning all occupied land in 67 which is no more than 21.5% of the Historical lands of Palestine and pay compesation for the 5 million+ refugees kicked by the Israelis.
The "generous" Israeli offer not only rejects the refugee issue altogether, it even rejects giving Palestinians back their UN mandated Israeli-US accepted lands. It refuses even stopping what it calls "natural growth" of Jewish colonies within the west bank, this means if your neighbour has more kids he can by law kick you out of your own house because of "natural growth". It also gives Israel total authority to put "security zones" within the west bank around those colonies, ie more land grab. On paper these lands will be governed by the Palestinians but in reality controled by Israelis. Wow how generous the US can be!
Here is a map that shows what does the "generous" US backed Israeli offer for the Palestinians:
 For a more detailed map, see
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d8/Westbankjan06.jpg
(source: UN)
Anyway, until now the Israelis, as in camp David in 2000, refused to give any written documents or sign an outline agreement that actually proves their intentions. Since you live in the west and read western papers you don't here that. What you here is all the crap on how far the Israelis went in giving back what is not theirs to begin with and how ungrateful Arafat was for refusing to give up what was given to him by international law and accepted and signed on even by Israel in Oslo.
As for Hamas, yes they committed mistakes and many in the Arab world (including me in my first post in this thread) are severly criticising them including from among their own ranks, but here is the thing, what did you expect them to do? throws roses on the Israelis?
Nobody condemned Israel for breaking the truce over 100 times including a huge incursion in November, killing more than 50 civilians and totally blockading. But when tin rockets fired out of frustration are fired on empty fields, oh no, this is a violation, a terrorist attack on the innocent and peace loving state of Israel.
Al-Jassas
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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 17:16
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No, because if this particular election wasn't around the corner, Israel wouldn't have maneuvered Hamas into making the attacks in the first place. Hamas was played here, keep that in mind - the blockade was intended to create a situation where attacks would occur and provide a cassus belli for 'retaliation'. You can't really just 'forget' the blockades, convenient as that might be, because this sort of story is the same every time. If it isn't blockades it's curfews, mass detentions, bulldozing of homes, destruction of crops, settlements, walls or whatever. The list of provocations that have been used to create these sorts of situations is endless. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 17:22
Spot on ------------- |
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 17:46
I am not sure we can even say they are at fault. They are tools, and have constantly been tools of outside interests (most often of Moslems) who might have assisted them more than they have. That was not seen to be in those others' interests, and it still isn't.
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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 17:59
To make this more simple on what I'm saying, Rockets should have NEVER been fired in the first place, because it's just a repeat of all the other times. And if common sense dictates it doesn't work countless times before, it's not going to work now. It's not sending a message, it's not hurting Israel as a state, otherwise it would've along time ago. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 20:26
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After reading most of this posts, i could find all the same arguments i've heared during the last 35 years in the near-east-conflict.
No one is obviously interessted in stoping this conflict. There's like it is always not only one truth. There is not only one way to show power and weapons.
Camp David and all this other pseudo agreements didn't change the situation sustained.
Israel and it's neighbors claim to possess the only right answer. Another tank attack or another suicid bomber, another missile attack or another tortureing.
Another war with further victims. No sulution but bloodshed. Mankind didn't do a single step from the time where cludgels were the only argument.
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Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 20:48
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Ulrich, you just summed up the political history of the world for the last 90 years. |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2008 at 22:10
I don't nesessarily agree with their tactics, I'm not a commander, I'm just defending their right to resist. What is the alternative to fighting Israel? The only alternative is a fake peace where remaining Palestinian territories become walled off, controlled and subject to colonization by Europeans and North Americans. Theres a reason all the Zionist settlements are in the West Bank as opposed to the Gaza strip.
Its easy to assume that Hamas is just some out of touch, out of control group who gets a kick out of provoking Israel. Thats because our press doesn't report on the daily crimes and breaches of agreements by Israeli military rule (thats what Palestinians officially live under). We don't hear about people's kids being beaten in their own neighborhoods and houses by Israeli soldiers for looking at them funny. We don't know how bad it is when random Palestinians get kidnapped, rotting in Israeli dungeons for no reason other than they are Palestinian. We don't hear about entire families being slaughtered by Israeli search parties, who are just clearing the way for future European settlement. We don't hear about the fact that hundreds of legitimate Palestinian politicians have been kidnapped and assassinated by Mossad agents, essentially decapitating Palestinian leadership. The only time we hear about Palestine is when Palestinians get fed up and fight back, and thats not done by accident.
I wasn't trying to say you were anti-Palestinian or pro-Israeli--- I just grouped together everything I disagreed with into one bunch, so my comments for you probably overlapped into the rest of it.
I want to emphasize this--- what is the alternative? If Hamas puts down its rockets, renounces violence and puts Gaza at Israel's mercy, whats going to happen? The West Bank already did this, they have an Israeli-approved government, and what was the result? They have severe limits on their freedom of movement (Israeli checkpoints) and they have access to fewer and fewer of the land's resources because the government is too busy building settlements for European and North American adventurers and walling off Palestinians from local supplies and roads. Farmers have been walled off from the water supplies right next to their lands. Neighborhoods have been cut off from one another. This is done intentionally to make Palestinians leave. Its that simple.
Don't believe for a second that peace in Palestine depends on Hamas, history has shown the Zionists always have one excuse or another. At first they told the world they are preventing a "second Holocaust", then Arafat was a convenient scapegoat for a while, and now they are using Hamas. Zionists want the public to think that peace depends on Hamas, when its really about the native Palestinian people resisting foreign militants invading their country.
I agree, Hezbollah would be a good blueprint for these guys to follow. I never said I agree with Hamas's tactics--- I'm just saying its their right to fight Israel, simply because the alternative will destroy what is left of their national existence. The West Bank is peaceful and even has an Israeli-approved leader in Abbas--- And look what happened to the West Bank in just a couple of years. At this rate, in less than 20 years, the entire population of the West Bank will be Israeli settlers and squatters.
I agree with them not being equal, my whole point is that theres a huge discrepancy between the two sides, and we should treat the situation as such. But what Palestinians are asking for is not equal by any means--- they just want a fraction of their country to live in. 1967 borders are not "fair" or "equal" for Palestinians, but Israel (with US/UK support) has rejected any reasonable two-state solution. The ones that were rejected by Palestinians were not simply "1967 borders", it was 1967 borders with many asterisks and conditions which basically rendered independent Palestine into a group of tiny, discontinuous principalities with Israeli military checkpoints between them all, and with no laws against Israeli settlers. Agreeing to that is national suicide, and Israel has made this the only alternative to violence.
This all goes back to the Zionist movement and its ideology, and the fact that the movement has never put any limits on its borders, and the fact that their entire protocol was to make Palestinians a powerless minority on their own lands, ever since the first days of the British Mandate.
I agree with a lot of your points-- Hamas is desperate and they naturally carry out the work of entities who fund them who don't necessarily have the Palestinian people as a priority. But this doesn't mean everything they do is for their masters, or that their struggle is any less of a people's struggle, especially when most of the people support them, mainly because they have felt what Israeli "peace" is all about. I will be the first to say that the "Arab League" is a collection of pansy politicians who either work for western interests (Egypt, Jordan, Gulf states, etc) or are too scared to take the initiative (Syria). In fact, the only country with gall when it comes to the Palestinian struggle is a non-Arab state (Iran). Iran's relationship with Hezbollah and Hamas is glued together because of Israeli aggression. Its a very clear-cut and natural relationship. Palestinians asserting their rights in Palestine is just a natural result if Iran gains ground or is victorious in this proxy war. In the bigger picture, Hamas and Iran simply have overlapping national interests. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 01:50
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Once again I am not surprised to see veiled remarks typical of Israeli apologists, despite the admission of the greatest proponents of this cancerous state. “If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
Long before the first Israeli pays for these crimes,I would like to see the likes of Hosni Mubarak and two bit kings with names like abdallah abdallah..dressed as fairies in their long robes..hang from the nearest tree for their betrayal. Just can not stand these hypocrites!!. As for the Arab armies they should find the nearest quick sand and drown themselves in it. It seems the only language the Israelis understand is that of violence. Violence it deserves to have reciprocated. The Israeli understand violence better than most , after all their genesis, existence and survival depends on it. Amazingly people don't stop trying to rationalize non violence to the Palestinians. It's like rationalizing non violence to the negro with a KKK noose being put round his neck. Golda Meir hoped that with enough violence a more favorable conclusion could eventually be reached by the Palestinians, thus she noted "We will have peace with the Arabs when they love their children more than they hate us". The likes of her have a problem though, for the will of the Palestinians has yet to be broken. The problem is they are not quite where she would have liked them to be; "We will not leave our land, we will not raise white flags and we will not kneel except before God,"~Ismail Haniya. Here is your answer Golda! not now, not ever.
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Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 01:55
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And you claim your anti-war. Don't dare and try to question the rest of our motives - its obvious you've never lived in a place anywere near Palestine. Your opinions are no more morally superior to any supposed 'Israeli apologists'. Your morally superior self righteous crap is exactly what I'm talking about. Its better for all when people like you don't get a voice at any sort of peace negotiations because your short term brain is inundated with tales of hardship and oppression with no capacity for thinking of the future. ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 01:57
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 02:36
And Ireland is twinned with Jordan, great argumets BTW. ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 02:57
Ireland is twinned with Northern Ireland actually, and I know a thing or two about partition, repression and despair, even if I am a generation after. Just keep the pontifications for your Marxist Revolutionary meetings. Most civilised people don't want to hear the self-righteous ramblings of someone who clearly doesn't understand what living in a warzone is like. ------------- |
Posted By: Kevin
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 03:15
What part of Ireland are you originally from Parnell? |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 04:33
Send their men over to iran and learn to fight like soldeirs, then fight them on your own terms. islreal had a much harder time laying aglove on the Hezbi fighters and that includes on the media level as well.
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Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 04:40
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I read most of the comments made in this thread and the ones who are closest to the state of the real affairs there are probably Malizai's. Isreal has been abusing and humiliating the Palestinians in Gaza concentration camp for quite some time now with the full-support of the leader of the "free-world" America. The Palestinians have nothing left but to fight and die, when there is "peace" Isreal steals their land and destroys their homes and when there is war it does everything else. That's why we in the West and especially here in America hear nothing of it but only of the latest Zionist massacre caused by "Hamas rockets". Here is a question for the Isreal apologists, if the same was done to you and your family wouldn't u want to hurt the aggressors in any way possible - even if it meant death? or... How is it that a nation of 300 million foreing policiy is so thoroughly controlled by a tiny country of 6 million? Despite of the tragedy being perpetuated these increasingly brutal attacks on the part of Israel are showing to the ones paying attention that the more the Zionists sense their own powerlessness the more they achieve pariah status in world affairs. This is seriously a public relations disaster for Israel and its leaders will soon realize that incessant terror and intimidation is not the way to conduct diplomacy in the 21'st century. ------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 05:27
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Hello Leo
I think in my post in the page before I proved that the "generous" offer of the Israeli was nothing but suger coated crap. Read the post and see the map and you will know why.
AL-Jassas
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 06:51
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i know its not going to make everyone happy but there seems two choices, 1 talk and gain as much as possible, that is meet the Isreali bluff of peace or 2 don't talk and let the Israelis carve out what they want anyway. think about it they have the power no one else bar a nuked up Iran can equal them. Arafat did call Barack's bluff and came very close to shuting down further expansion by talking and the Isreali's pulled out right at the last moment not them. the expansion, the status quo is what your want to stop now. the situation in 2007, ok the reality of it, talk or not from http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/vMaps%21OpenView - http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/vMaps!OpenView a much earlier isreali wish, the allon plan which every one else is based off, they will get as much of this as they can this without peace.  your map is not final and the palistinians didnt accept that to the full. I found a third party note of what was discussed, agreed and not agreed to. for instance
http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/prrn/papers/moratinos.html - www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/prrn/papers/moratinos.html -------------
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Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 09:40
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Hello Leo Are really talking with your full and uncompromised senses? what kind of a f**ing state is Palestine going to be if it accepted the proposals above. This is insane. The international community (UN security council) guaranteed in Madrid and Oslo as well as subsequent binding agreements that Israel should give everything to the 67 borders and not an inch less. The maps above contain lands Israel colonized after Oslo and after Camp David and after Annapolis. It also contains land that Israel haven't even colonised yet. It contains practically all the excellent farming lands the Palestinians still have as well as water and mineral resources. What you are saying is that the Palestinians should not only give up half the west Bank including land colonized and grabbed AFTER Oslo, they should accept the fact that at any moment even with a finalized peace deal Israel will grab more land and kick more Palestinians. What kind of peace is this? What kind of a state that has shifting and ever shrinking borders?
The US/Israel are changing the rules of the game in the middle of the match, the rules that apply againt other people don't apply to them. They have the audacity to demand a full and uncompromisable application of UN rules on Lebanon but when it comes to deal struck by Israelis themselves, the game can change.
This is why Arafat refused the 2000 deal, this is why Abbas refused the newest deal.
AL-Jassas
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 09:53
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Its amazing how many people do not understand the motives of the oppressed. When you have no wealth, have no justice, have no freedom, have no guns, you have only two choices - surrender, or fight. Hamas fires the rockets to show themselves as much as anyone that they have not surrendered, and that they are not slaves on their own land. If they do not fight then they will be a people with no self-esteem and wretched in all ways. Identical to the Aboriginal who drowns his sorrows in Alcohol. The peace talks are meaningless, Israel holds all the cards and works to its own agenda. They only exist to appease the western public & Israeli left. Israels conditions have always been the same, "be our slaves and let us do as we please, whether that be kill you children, steal your land or whatever, and we will give you the scraps from our table. If you do not then we will still kill you children, and steal your land, but we will not give you any scraps" It is far better to die on your feet than live on your knees. While there is still an old grandmother in Palestine willing to throw a stone at a main battle tank Israel will never win. Every bomb that Israel drops will only dig its grave deeper. Mark my words, Israels future is entirely in the hands of the Palestinians. If the Zionists do not give justice to the Palestinians then in the future the Israelis will have to beg for justice from the Palestinians. Egypt, Jordan, Syria are all fat petty dictators. Too afraid to loose their material wealth. Their lives are tied to the fate of their puppet masters. ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 14:05
What are we waiting for? Why not have the apocolypse now and get it over with? ------------- |
Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 14:58
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True enough, but that happens no matter what they do.
Well, its not like they don't lie down and take it every day. Once in a while, things give, and that's when we hear about it.
They just don't have the level of political control to actually stop rockets from being fired when the Israelis provoke the entire population. It's just going to happen, and that's that. It's unfortunate, but they just don't have the leadership or unity necessary to stop that sort of thing from happening, just as Israel cannot control the settler movement even if they wanted to (Rabin was the last one to seriously give that a shot - and look what happened to him!) We can't look to Israel or the Palestinians to solve the problem. This kind of stuff happens, like in the former Yugoslavia or Cyprus or East Timor ... and once it gets going, the people involved simply can't stop it. The real problem is that the world powers don't have the political will to go in there and stop it, which they should have done a long time ago. They should be forced to accept a settlement including a DMZ with observers and peacekeepers or face a complete loss of aid and trade, or perhaps even an outright armed intervention - the same way the Balkan states or Indonesia were forced to knuckle under and accept peace whether they liked it or not, because the world powers just stepped in and said, "enough." As far as this "working" for Israel: it's not. It's working for Israel better than it is for the Palestinians, but that's not saying much. Just as the Palestinians never seem to learn that shooting rockets won't stop the Israelis, the Israelis never seem to realize that dropping bombs isn't stopping the Palestinians either. |
Posted By: vulkan02
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 15:48
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It's not about "learning" not to shoot back when shooting back is the only dignified response you have left. Even if Hamas wasn't in charge then some other organization close to Hamas would replace it. The Palestinians have had enough death and humiliation to sit back and wait till Israel miraculously changes its mind ends its random killings, land grabs, torture prisons, etc etc etc. Many people there are at the point where they believe that violent death against the Zionists is only choice they have left to end the crushing oppression they experience day to day. Check out some of the pictures from the attack and you decide who really is the aggressor there.. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/dec/28/gaza-attacks-israel-palestine?picture=341149884 - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/gallery/2008/dec/28/gaza-attacks-israel-palestine?picture=341149884 ------------- The beginning of a revolution is in reality the end of a belief - Le Bon Destroy first and construction will look after itself - Mao |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2008 at 16:57
Hamas attacking Israel always benefits Israel, and Leo pointed that above because they can play the defending their citizen's card while using excessive force on Palestinians. It does nothing for Palestine!
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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