Day of the German
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=25417
Printed Date: 17-May-2024 at 14:53
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Day of the German
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Subject: Day of the German
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2008 at 14:12
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Eyery year at the second saturday of september the Society of the German speech celebrates "The day of the German".
This year the main attention goes to the all the Anglicism that had captured the German.
Many terms, leant on the English, found it's way into the everyday speech. Whereas the term "Handy" used for portable phones isn't a term, that is used in Englis.
Many commercials at tv or radio are using as much English terms as possible.
A current radioad for a gig of a singer says:
MMW's (the singer) Birthday bash. Ihr könnt "voten" was "performed" werden soll. There are several German terms for the used English ones, but obviously it's "cool" to use English.
The counters of the German Rail are called "Service Center" or "Ticket Center" and a German TV station is "powered by emotions".
A German perfumery store chain used the slogan " Come in and find out". They stopped it after asking consumers about the meaning of it and many people thought, that meaning was "come in and leave quickly".
Most of the teams of the German icehockey and basketball professional leagues are using English names like, Artland Dragons, Nürnberg Ice Tigers, Frankfurt Skyliners, Hamburg Freecers or Hagen Phoenix. Brr, that sends shudders through me.
Now this debate is hard to understand for members of an English forum, where many come from anglophone countries. But what do you think?
I decided to celebrate this day, by posting the rest of the day only in German.....
And to prevent Seko's notes. Yes , this post is in English... ------------- 
http://imageshack.us"> 
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Replies:
Posted By: pikeshot1600
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2008 at 15:08
What? German is really English with spelling errors.  (kidding)
It is the French who have been "shuddering" for decades.
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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2008 at 17:39
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We have the same problem. Most icehockey teams have adopted English "surnames" just as yours since a few years past, and it's utterly ridiculous. Most people just ignore them. Slogans are in English, half of our bloody commercials are in English even though they are produced by Swedes and only aired in Sweden. I find it very silly, and while listening to Germans speaking with English words all over the place (I meet quite a few foreigners in my work/study), one realises it's even more ludicrous than you thought. I can't imagine how silly it must be to an Englishspeaker. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2008 at 19:29
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Actually in Luxembourg the native language has become more and more used in public speech and announcements, commercial advertising and so on since I first came here 25 or so years ago. At that time you never saw written Lëtzebuergesch.
Mainly though that's been at the expense of French and German, rather than of English. ------------- |
Posted By: Asawar Hazaraspa
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2008 at 23:31
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to this add killen from English. By the way where did you post your german posts? |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2008 at 19:59
we closed the foreign language section two years ago, for several reasons.
Wir haben die Abteilung für Mitteilungen in anderen Sprachen bereits vor zwei Jahren geschlossen, keiner weiß warum.
So, i didn't post in German actually.
Daher habe ich eigentlich garnichts in Deutsch gepostet.
If you are interested in German or Icelandic pm me.
Falls Du in Deutsch oder in irgendeiner anderen Sprache mailen möchtest, schreib mir eine PM
-------------
http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2008 at 06:38
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I've noticed that last time I was in Germany visiting family.
------------- |
Posted By: Asawar Hazaraspa
Date Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 01:39
| one can tell |
Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2009 at 16:10
 Ich bin neu in diesem Forum. Es überrascht mich nicht zu sehen und zu hören, wie die deutsche Sprache im Sterben liegt und durch die richtige Stimme Englisch ersetzt. I "M Deutsch-Irische; stolz auf beide. Wie irischen Familie Kampf um unsere Grundfreiheiten. Dieses Problem wird in den Kalk light.The realen Schrecken auf die lange Bank geschoben getan. Das Problem der Wiederherstellung unserer Muttersprache, (Irisch) ,. Die Stiftung ist der Wille des Volkes zu einer Rückkehr in die Muttersprache verlangen, ab dem ersten Tag der Schule. Das deutsche Volk wurden Belastung eine Schuld sie nicht schuldig, ich will nicht in die "Fake Holocaust-get" , als mir klar, dieses Forum zu diskutieren. Ich finde es aber Offensive Anzeigen auf TV laufen und das Radio in einem fremden Sprache.------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2009 at 16:49
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hmmmm..... if you could in english please ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2009 at 16:58
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I'm sorry. You can use Google translator. I will post in english next time. ------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 22-Nov-2009 at 23:55
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Well, English is a Germanic language. If you think about it, Germanic languages are the most dominant languages in the world (i.e English). So Germans shouldnt be worried too much, its just one Germanic language replacing another. |
Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2009 at 16:36
 I love all of German things, bias I guess! The German people are just proud, even though they are excepted to paid a debt that wasn't their' to pay. The "Day of the German" was seeing the unification of East/West German. I was hoping it would bring more prosperity to the East. I do blame outside influences to the lack of good fortune. The food is amazing. BEER, nothing else to say. ------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2009 at 17:23
What debt do you mean? ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 23-Nov-2009 at 18:08
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To me, at least, German means much the same as "germain!" ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 09:56
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I'm not sure if we are allowed to discuss the "Fake Holocaust". I remember my grandfather telling stories about American-Allied troops killing innocent German Men, Women, and Children and leaving their bodies lying in the streets. I see history lessons doesn't discuss these issues. That's the debt I talk about. More in the future. ------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 11:25
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Considering the fact that your nation attacked almost all the european countries and was committing war crimes since the first day of war, murdering civilians and PoW's, I dont think that Germans have right to blame others for the same. Remember who started it. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 13:54
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It sad you don't have the real story of how and why WWII started. I can only assume you are a
BIG Zion's supporter. May I suggest you stop reading accepted main stream history and search the for the truth about the corrupt money changers. ------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 14:37
May I suggest you take a gun and shot yourself like your hero Adolf Hitler? ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 16:34
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Now, now, Mosquito, remember the plaque that you hold in your hands? Does it not say "Free Speech ZONE?"
Cetainly American and other Allied troops committed War Crimes? It is the nature of war! Even now the American government seems determined to see if it can convict our own agents, and soldiers of such crimes? Whilst it has "noble intentions", it is still "wrong!"  ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 18:35
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I dont care for American goverment. I just cant stand when Germans try to put themself into the same pocket as their victims. I can only tell you that they started executions of civilians in my city a day after they took it. When you are a MURDERER, dont ask others to treat you in other way that you have treated your victims. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 19:14
True, but allied troops committed war crimes at the level of individuals or small units. NAZI Germany and Imperial Japan made the commission of large scale war crimes a national policy. That is a huge difference.
That depends on what crimes the individual agents and soldiers are accused of. As a side note, military courts martial of war crimes are traditionally presided over by combat officers and in the case of an enlisted man, a senor NCO with combat experience. This ensures that the men are not judged by rear echelon officers. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 19:39
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1st September 1939 German Luftwaffe bombed small city of Wielun. The city was defenceless and there was no single Polish soldier inside and in the close area. In result of Bombing 75% of the city was completelly destroyed and about 1300 people were killed.
Since the 1st to 24th september 1939 German forces commited 764 mass executions of civilians and PoWs, in which were murdered 20.000 - 24.000 people. It was so called operation Tannenberg (germ. Unternehmen Tannenberg).
People responsible for executions in my city (Poznan):
Judges of the court:
commander of 14 Einsatzkommando der Sicherheitspolizei: Gerard Flesh - president of the court
Wilhelm Holz – judge
Hans Stapfner – police officer also in the role of judge
German civilians who helped in organisation of massacres in my city and region Dr. Wolfgang Karl Werner Bickerich, priest of evangelic church of St. John in Leszno, author of the list of people that should be killed, which the list he was preparing for many years before the war was started Artur Kramer – leader of Jungdeytsche Partei and Selbstschutzu
Heinz Hoffman – leader of German minority in my region
Jochann Utershutz – major of Osieczna town
Gustaw Pietsch – butcher from Oseiczna town
Horst von Leesen – german aristocrate and land owner from Osieczna town area.
And it was only begining of German occupation.
So spare me your neonazi propaganda and your neonazi book Gerry57 ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2009 at 21:09
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Mosquito, millions of Germans also suffered during the war. They were people to. Hell, if you want to look at it the way you are looking at it, then by your very own argument, no one should be sympathetic to Israeli's simply because of what the Israeli government is doing. The same goes for the British, the French, the Russians, and every other European nations that has killed millions of people. As much as the Western powers want to paint Germany as evil (dont get me wrong, Hitler was certainly evil, as was his Nazi party), in many cases throughout history, Western governments have done far worse, especially the European ones. What Hitler did to civilians pales in conparison to was the British, French, and others did in their empires. Hell, the Spanish wiped out entire civilizations and peoples, they succeeded in their genocides. Fact is, German's suffered too, it was a horrendous war. I think Germans should not only be able to mourn their dead, but that they too should be able to honor their dead soldiers, who fought and died for their country, as tens millions of others have throughout history. The British alone are responsible for the deaths of 20 million Indians (and that was just in one part of their empire, they killed millions more in Africa), a hell of a lot more than Hitler killed. My guess is, if you were a German in 1941 and you were given orders by your superior to kill innocent civilians, you would have done it too. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2009 at 03:44
Their victims were people too. And as i proved on my list, those innocent German civilians without any orders were helping in organisation of massacres of Polish civilians. So the German population was responsible as well, even such people like German priests.
We were talking about Germans and WW2. If you want to talk about British or French, start new topic for it. And almost all the Germans were nazists so i make no distinction between those 2 words.
Speak for yourself, not for me.
During WW2 Germans showned real barbarity on the scale unknown before in Europe. By their actions they outlawed themselves, showned that no human rights should be applied to them. Whoever and whatever did to the Germans during the war, was completelly right to do it. A little bit of suffering might have opened their eyes on the evil they did to other people. And the other people have been suffering much longer than Germans did.
Polish farmers murder by Germans who seems to be very proud on the picture.
 ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2009 at 08:59
Yes, they were both people.
You did not prove that all Germans committed acts of massacre, you only proved that some did, which is true of all nations.
No, the point I was trying to make is very relevant to this thread. So tell me, do you feel the same towards Britain or France? I doubt it. You only feel this way towards the Germans because of what they did to your people, but you probably dont think twice about what the British and French did to the Africans, Native Americans, and Asians.... I'm saying that its all the same, Nazi Germany was no better or worse than the world powers who defeated it. The only difference is that Nazi Germany was, thankfully, stopped a lot sooner than some of the other empires which committed genocides and massacres for hundreds of years.
I garuntee you that you would have, there is also a good chance that you would have joined the Nazi party too. Given the climate in Germany at the time, its hard to imagine that if you were German and you were serving in the German army, you would not have followed orders.
Really? Entire Jewish populations were wiped out during the genocide of the first crusade. Entire populations have been eradicated from the face of Europe, entire nations and cultures destroyed. Believe me, Europe was a violent place long before the German's gained power.
Your right, lets go carpet bomb London and Paris too, maybe that will teach them a lesson. What you have to understand here is that the victors write history. Thats why we hear about all the bad things committed by the "bad" guys and only the good things done by the "good" guys. However, Nazi Germany was evil, I'll give you that, but killing is killing, and civillians are civillians. Let me ask you something, do you think the dropping of the nuclear bombs on Japan was justified? |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2009 at 09:31
It were the Germans who started bombing cities and killing civilians. I feel no mercy for the Germans who died during allied bombings. If the Germans didnt start bombing the cities, the allies probably woudnt do it. On the begining of the war, when Wielun was razed to the ground, when Warsaw was in fire, the British and French were bombing Germany with shits of paper. When one of the British generals asked for bombing German industries, the commander of Bomber command answered "no" and asked him if he realises that it is private property.
So im not talking with you on this subject anymore. It wasnt your country that was suffering 5 years of German occupation and 6 millions of murdered people. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2009 at 16:43
Believe me, my country has suffered a lot more than Poland has (entire cities and populations wiped out throughout its long history). And by the way, the Nazi's killed 12 million civillians in their concentration camps, not just the 6 million Jews that you are referring to (but maybe they dont count?) The point I was trying to make is that you are looking at all of this in a very one sided way. Like the Polish never committed any atrocities? |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2009 at 17:14
I count 6 millions of citisens of my country killed in about 5 years, mostly murdered. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2009 at 16:03
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I'm alittle confuse? If you count the Jews that was killed, and compare it old census numbers after the WWII; Cities around Europe, Asia Israel, and The United States. The number is closer to 1.5 million. True an awful number, but war is very terrible event. ------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2009 at 16:38
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Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2009 at 16:56
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In my opinion, everything about the past, the distant past and the less distant past is up to some challenge!
Propaganda is and always will be propaganda! But, of course, I could be wrong? Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2009 at 17:25
Actually you know nothing.
This is the picture of my grandfather during WW2:
 ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2009 at 17:45
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Look guys! There are plenty of the so called "revisionist" sites on the I-net, which can make some people at least, give the entire holocaust a new view!
But, I am not a denier of the holocaust! Rather I deny a lot of things! Regards, Ron ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2009 at 08:03
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War is a horrible business. It's hard too see how anyone wins. The innocent civilians are the real untold victims. I think Iraq, and Afghanistan proves this theory. The real question I think is who was the real players hiding in the shadows directing the course of actions to be carried out. I think Israel and the palestinian people issue shows what can be done when you have the most powerful countries help you on your quest! If it's help with money, arms, intelligence, or just plain turn your head while innocent civilians are killed and torture. There are alot of information about the secret meetings Israel was having with the United States and Britain years before any action was taken against the "money changers". Remember the gypsys were run out of Russia for their continuance trouble.I find that the European Libraries are a good source of correct information. It was Britain who demand that Israel be given land and should be taken from the Palestinian people. A mistake that modern day Britain now regrets. ------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2009 at 16:11
The Nazis never had a majority in free elections. so whatever was done in the name of germany, it was not supported by the whole German population. If you wanna be a judge about German history you should deal with it before.
In my family there were Nazis, Democrates and Communist, people who served in SS and wehrmacht, but also people who where murdered by the Gestapo. There were guilty and innocent ones. you can't say all Germans were guilty. If you can't feel mercy than you are not better than the people you blame.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2009 at 18:34
Germans started bombing and killing civilians since the first day of war. They should have think about consequences before the started doing it. And as far i know, majority of Germans joined NSDAP ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Domen
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2009 at 03:24
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I have found a funny description below the video about the way to WW2 on You Tube (in this description author of the video is apologizing all Germans for making such a video):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnXKrecRIsM - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnXKrecRIsM
"Originally meant to be a prelude introduction to a episodic war cartoon, functions like an old time newsreel depicting events leading up to World War II
Creator's Note: I have never claimed and will never claim historical accuracy on this video, as it says above it was made for entertainment sake. And it bears no ill-will to any German person, the only villain in this video is Adolf Hitler, (and he wasn't even German) and if you side with him, then I really couldn't care how offended you get." Why should history researchers apologize Germans for their own history?
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Posted By: TheGreatSimba
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2009 at 10:32
Interesting video. Howver, there is one aspect, which the video briefly hinted out, thats not talked about much. World War Two would probably never have happened at the Allies (France, UK, and US) not been selfish at the end of World War One. They forced Germany to take the blame for a war it did not start, forced the country into poverty, occupied much of its territory, etc... what did they think was going to be the result? This is called political backlash, its happened many times throughout history and its a natural cause and effect situation. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2009 at 14:01
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Did I understand it correct, mosquito, that you are from Poland? As far as I know, most Polish or at least a lot were in the Communist Party after the war. So all Polish are responsible for Stalinistic crimes? What has a membership in the NSDAP to do with guilt of the war? For some groups of Germans it was necessary to become members, others just wanted to have no problems. There wee a lot of reasons. It was a dictatorship. It was a special situation that led Hitler to the power, it were not the majority of Germans that brought him into power. Of course it were too much, but even all electors of the NSDAP were pure Nazis, racist or somewhat like that. There were different reasons for Germans to give him their voive. You just see the propaganda movies of Goebbels and believe what you see is the truth, but those pictures are propaganda. You blame them, how could they do this. It is easy today to do it, it is easy to blame them, but we know more than they knew.I don't want to discuss away neither guilty nor any crimes. I just wonder why some people are blaming Nazis or Germans for crimes and inhumanity and are cheering in the same minute about every German, who was killed, massacred or what else.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 20-Dec-2009 at 15:28
Yes, im from Poland. But you definatelly dont know history. Poles are not Germans. Communist party in Poland was always a minority of population. Communist party was brought to Poland on bayonets of the Red Army and needed Red Army to stay in power in Poland. Until 1948 in Poland was civil war, tens of thousands of people fought against communist forces and the Red Army (actually the last partisant was killed in 1963). It was eastern Germany where majority of people were communists, not Poland. Between 1948 and 1989 thousands of people in Poland died fighting communism. And it were Poles who brought communism to an end.
Well, no state or goverment can launch such war as Germany did, without the support of population. Look at Italians, they simply didnt want to fight, while Germans fought for their FUHRER to an end.
I know you dont want to discuss the matter of guilt. Its much more comfortable for you to not do it. But in my city and region - Poznan (Posen) it werent any great nazists like Goebels or Himmler who were responsible for mass executions of civilians but normal Germans. Look on my list in one of my previous posts here, one of them was a german priest who for about 10 years before the war was preparing the list of people to kill if Germany will invade Poland. Another was a butcher from Osieczna town and another was a local german aristocrate. It were not high SS officers but normal or as you want to call them - "innocent people".
------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 05:22
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Yes, Poles fought for their freedom against communism, I know. And Germans died because they were against Hitler. The Jews weren't not the first who were send to the KZs, it were Germans, Social Democrates, Communists and others. There were a lot of Democratic and communist politicians imprisoned during the last free election. And the voters went to the election in an climate of fear, because the SA was ruling the streets. people where forced to give a public vote instead of a secret one as usual.
The most Germans didn't want to start war. They remembered back to WWI. You believe Goebbel's propaganda. But it is true, with the victories the support for the war changed. After the defeat in WWI and the unwise behavior of the West but as well caused by nationalistic behavior of Poland, they felt pride of all the victories. And when the luck was gone and the Germans lost mile by mile, there was no other way as to fight on. The Allies wanted an unconditional surrender and it was the fear what Russians and Polish would do if Germany would loose.
I did not say I don't want to discuss guilt, I said I don't want to discuss away the guilty. Of course there were citizens of Posen, normal persons that committed crimes after the german occupation. War makes a lot of normal persons become criminals. i don't know why and I don't want to justify it, but perhaps anti-German behavior of Poles after 1918 could be one reason. and perhaps you know the Bromberg bloody sunday, where Polish murdered on September 3rd about 300 to 1500 German civilians, Nazis spoke of more than 50000, what is probably wrong. There were more than 5000 German civilians and at that time Polish citizens murdered by Poles. Same happened in Posen before. So German murder was sometimes a response for Polish behavior. I don't defend it. That is clear. and I don't want to compare the casualties of each side. But you must see the whole and not just the parts you like.
BTW. Poland occupied the Czech Teschen while Hitler occupated the Sudentenland. There were a lot of wars Poland led after 1918 against its neighbours and especially under Pielsudski they had a anti-German, nationalistic policy. So how innocent was Poland?
Germans committed great crimes during WWII. We apologized for it, we take the responsibility for it, even those who had nothing to do do with it, we have lost great parts of our country, millions of Germans were murdered after the war and expelled, we paid for our crimes. How much more do we have to do? And you? You are still happy about every German who died and are not able to feel mercy.
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Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 06:59
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I think we should step back and remember that the German Empire was much larger than it is today. Enter;the career politicians. At every point the German People and the Country was forced to give up Hugh parts of the country to appease other Countries or to secured an hidden agenda.
It does anger me that know one stood up and demand this be stopped.To demonized one country and the people over other unrelated actions, doesn't seem fair. I know my Grandfather was morally hurt how parts of his historical country was torn apart and sold like items at a local Walmart.My Grandfather was an SS officer.I will not be made to feel ashamed about this; as his was proud of his time in the defense of his country. ------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 07:30
| I have ss men in my family too. They were at SS-Div Nord and the Police-Division. They weren't volunteers. One of them died in 43, with the other one I didn't speak about this time, but he was proud too as far as I know. He and especially my aunt are speaking about the time in the good SS in opposite to those SS in the KZs. But this is fiction and not the truth. Both SS mixed their personal, wounded Weapon-SS men were commanded into KZs and people from KZs served in combat units of the SS. Of course SS units fought mostly very brave and felt proud but they were part of a criminal system. It would be better if they reflect with this. But of course to see that one fought for the wrong side is very hard. so they speak about their fair war aside with the Wehrmacht, but there is no fair war at all. |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 08:32
| it is interesting what we discuss now. ulrich started with the examples of too much english in the modern German language. :) |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 21-Dec-2009 at 15:22
Aye, old nazi talk coming from Goebels and Hitler, blame Poland for WW2.
What happend in Poznan?
Poor Germans, nobody likes them, all people are nationalistic and poor Germans are their victims.
Before you start talking about nationalistic Poles, maybe read somthing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Eastern_Marches_Society - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Eastern_Marches_Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Settlement_Commission - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Settlement_Commission
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C5%82_Drzyma%C5%82a - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C5%82_Drzyma%C5%82a
"hundred years ago the Polish State was destroyed; now the language and the nation must cease to exist" Bismarck
------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 00:53
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Yes, here it is. that's what I expected. That's the way the usual discussion goes. Say something against Poland and you're a Nazi. I am far away from being a Nazi and if you red my postings you can see that. Nothing of what you blame me I have said.
But I don't wonder, if I read your given links. Unfortunately a lot of that links is incorrect and with an anti-Prussian or anti-German tendacy. But I am sure you don't care about that, cos the only Nationalist here are you.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 03:24
Im not nationalist at all. But im coming from Greater Poland or Provinz Posen if you like, and we have experienced German nationalism on our own skin, unlike you, who have never experienced Polish nationalism on your own. So before you start talking about bad nationalistic Poles who are so anti-Prussian or anti-German, maybe better think why they are like that? Why in Cracow Poles werent anti-austrian? What was the difference in situation of Poles in the part of Poland controlled by Austria-Hungary and part occupied by Prussia (later Germany)? The funny thing is that inspite all the efforts of goverment, germanisation in Greater Poland completelly failed. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 03:51
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And Beorna, you dont know me personally so I tell you, that really im not nationalistic. I got friends in Germany, im myself partly of German origin. If you find the links i gave you biased, i recommend you reading the book "God's Playground: History of Poland", written by Norman Davies, welsh historian. He is not Polish so hard to say that he is nationalistic. In volume II he has described Prussian/ German occupation of Polish territories anected by Prussia in years 1771-1815, from the begining till 1918. As for bombing innocent German civillians during WW2, I have adopted British point of viev, and so far i know the Brits didnt consider it as unneccessary, nor have ever apologised Germans for it. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 05:57
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There are two mainstreams about Prussia, the one hates all Prussian, calls it militarian and cruel, the other adores it as a garden of free religion and others. But are partly right and wrong. The Prussian state wasn't nationalistic for long times, you were Prussian if you served the state, unimportant what religion you had or what language you spoke. The most Prussian citizens felt Prussian, so germanisation of wider parts was a result of acculturation and not of pressure and force. Especially Polish groups stood in opposite to the state, but there were a lot of Poles who served the state. This Prussian way changed during the 19th, especially with the uprising Polish nationalism. And it became even more restrictly after 1871. But eg the "Kulturkampf" where Poles suffered was not a nationalistic fight, this fight Bismarck fought against oppositional German groups too. It was just the attempt to destroy enemies of the state.
The attempt to Germanize the Prov. Posen failed by many reasons. But at the same time there was an attempt to Polonizise it too. And after 1918 a lot of Germans moved westwards, sometimes voluntarily sometimes forced by Poles. The German population of these areas was discriminized. That is not Nazi-propaganda.
Long times of German-Polish history have especially from the german side nothing to do with Nationalism. That is just a later and wrong Interpretation.
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BTW, there are a lot Brits who feel sorry about the bombings, but you could be right, that they never apologized for it according to the British government. I don't want to say something wrong but I think the mayor of Coventry did, but I am not sure. But you can be sure that Germans aplogized for the bombings a several times.
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Norman Davies is not from Poland, but his point of view is very much polonophile. He was not alowed to go to stanford univ. cos of an suspected antisemitism. so his books are not independent.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 06:39
Not really. Norman Davies is a world wide recognised authority in history and the only people who declare him controversial are members of Jewish minority in USA. In the same time he is not considered controversial in Israel. American Jewish minority cant forgive him for writting that Poland was good place for Jews to live and it is the same organisation that sued Sasha Baron Coen for antisemitism but withdrawned the case after got informed that he is a Jew too.
And it has nothing to do with the part of his book dedicated to part of Poland occupied by Prussia and Germany. And as historian, it is not his fault that he feel more sypmathy to Poland than to Russia or Germany. His works are well written and his sources are always cited. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Gerry57
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 07:47
Poor Germans, nobody likes them, all people are nationalistic and poor Germans are their victims.
Before you start talking about nationalistic Poles, maybe read somthing:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Eastern_Marches_Society - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_Eastern_Marches_Society
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Settlement_Commission - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_Settlement_Commission
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C5%82_Drzyma%C5%82a - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micha%C5%82_Drzyma%C5%82a
"hundred years ago the Polish State was destroyed; now the language and the nation must cease to exist" Bismarck
about 8 or 10 years ago there were several small villages in Poland admitted to killings the local Jews for their continuance trouble making. ------------- Gerry O'Brien |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 08:06
Aye, the case was well researched and investigated by joined Polish-Israelic commission and historian. Polish President already apologised Jewish nation for it. But it happend in German occupied Poland and was initiated by German authorities. In free Poland 1918-1939 - such things never happend. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 15:13
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In1872 per special law, there were new restrictions of the local ond provincial self-administration of the eastern provinces and a school law. In 1873 the clerical responsibility for the school was stopped. In 1874 it followed the "Expatriierungsgesetz", that means that foreign priest can be expelled. In 1885 35.000 Polish und Jews who weren't Prussian citizens were send off, a behavior that was criticized in other parts of the Reich. Bismarck said: „We don't want polish foreigners, we have enough of our own.“ In 1886 it followed a law about German settlement in the provinces Posen and Westpreußen. Polish land should be bought with official money, they gave cheap credits to German settlers and restricted credits to Poles. But polish response was succesful. The prizes of the ground rose very high and a lot of Germans sold their land while Poles did not. In 1904 the "Feuerstättengesetz" forbid polish Settlers to build houses on new bought land. In 1908 the "Enteignungsgesetz" made it possible to confiscate great polish farms (Großgrundbesitz). But it happened just four times, because even the Prussian administration didn't use it.
There were also restrictions against the Polish language.It started in 1876 with the "Geschäftssprachengesetz", Polish was not allowed in administration, courts and in school and at least it was forbidden in religion lessons.
all this was part of the "Kulturkampf". It was not special against Poles (Expatriierungsgesetz e.g.). It was against groups Bismarck thought they are enemies of the state.
One can think what he wants about the language policy, but this is common in Europe. It was not allowed for Germans to speak German in Elsaß-Lothringen, even today nearly 70% of the people there want German as first foreign language in school allthough German is the mother language, „La langue de la République est le Français“. Look at Great Britain. Polish was not forbidden, it was banned from the administration and school. And as you can see it started not with the 19th century but with the unification of Germany.
BTW: In free Poland such things never happened!? Only under Pielsudski the Polish Antisemitism was weakened but in other times it was very strong, Jews were mistreated, murdered and there were a lot of restrictions, e.g. Ghetto ławkowe. It was of course not as bad as what the Nazis did, but you shouldn't wash your hands in innocence.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:06
Poles have their own relations with their Jews. We were talking here about German-Polish relations, not Polish-Jewish. Novadays only relations between American Jews and American Poles are bad, imho due to stupidity of both those groups which to me seems to be very nationalistic and shame bringing to both their original nations. The relations between Poland and Israel are perfect. Many important Jewish politicains are of Polish origin, including many prime ministers of Israel. After WW2 Israel offered commandship of its army to Polish general Wladislaw Anders (who refused saying that is not a mercenary). It was even considered to create Jewish Legion in the Polish army and general Anders supported it but idea failed after Polish authorities in London didnt agree for it (due to preasure of Jewish "Bund" organisation and the British who didnt want to have any armed Jewish forces in Palestine).
Many generals of Israel's army were ex Polish soldiers, during wars against arabs they were more often talking Polish on radio than other languages. When I was in Israel with my parents, we have met people who were Polish Jews and they gave us extremly warm welcome and treated us almost with honours. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:17
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:28
No, you didnt show that I wasnt right. What you know about massmurders of Jews in period 1918-1939 in Poland? ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:31
I apreciate that you made an effort to investigate it.
------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:36
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History of Jews in Poland
http://members.core.com/~mikerose/history.html - http://members.core.com/~mikerose/history.html
During the Kosciuszko Insurrection and wars against Tsarist Russia in 1794 Jews supported the uprising either in auxiliary services or in arms. For example they took part in the April revolution in Warsaw where many of them perished. After the Russian army was repulsed from Warsaw the idea was born to create a separate military unit composed of Jewish volunteers. This idea was backed by the commander in chief of the Insurrection, Tadeusz Kosciuszko. "Nothing can convince more the far away nations about the holiness of our cause and the justness of the present revolution," he wrote in a Statement on the Formation of a Regiment of Jews, "than that, though separated from us by their religion and customs, they sacrifice their own lives of their own free will in order to support the uprising." The Jewish regiment under Colonel Berek Josielewicz took part in the fighting during the storming of the Praga district of Warsaw by Tsarist troops on 4 November 1794. With the blood shed in this war they documented the loyalty of the Jewish population to the cause of the revolution and the slogans it upheld-equality and fraternity. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:45
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Who spoke about mass murder during 1918 and 39?
Perhaps you search for e.g. Ghetto ławkowe. And if you have found it, perhaps you can find more about Jewish Discrimination in Poland
Jewish citizens fought bravely for Germany in WWI and were even honored for it. Does that mean there was no Antisemitism in Germany, no holocaust? So what does it mean for Polish Antisemitism if Jews fought for Poland?
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2009 at 16:56
Well, ok on some universities Jewish students were not allowed to sit together with Polish but it is still nothing compared to "CRISTAL NIGHT" ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 00:43
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discriminating ews, mistreating jews, killing Jews, I think it is just a little step from that to genocide!
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Or do we have here another Polish law. Oh, Mr. judge, sir. I am innocent, I have just stolen a car, but my neighbour a truck?
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 04:25
The difference is that in Poland people who were attacking Jews and their property were going to jail and Polish prisons were full of national democrates - the right wing party. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 04:51
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for the massacer of jewabne 93 stood in front of the court, just 17 were sentenced and only 1 got the death penalty. 1600 Jews were burned in an stable.
Radoslaw Ignatiew said, it were Poles who played the main roll of the murder of Jews in Jedwabne .
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 05:05
Massacre in Jedwabne happend in German occupied Poland and German authorities were trying to antagonize Polish population against the Jews. Poles who killed Jews were not persecuated by the German law. Whats more, Poland was the only country in occupied Europe where for saving the Jew or hiding him, Germans were killing not only the person who was helping the Jew but also whole his familly and all the people who were living in the same house. It didnt stop tens of thousands of Poles who were helping Jews and thousands were murdered by Germans for it.
What more, Polish resistance movement, the biggest organised underground force in Europe, known also as "secret state" which had its own administration, underground universities and courts, was sentencing to death every Pole who denounced Jew to Germans, attacked Jew or robbed him. Polish secret state also investigated holocaust and reported it to western allies as well as did a lot to help the Jews. Poles also had many secret organistations which were helping the Jews like for example ZEGOTA:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBegota - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%BBegota ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 05:20
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Yes, but if you read carefully it is said by Ignatiew, that the main role played the Poles. It is possible that Germans gave their ok, but not sure.
I don't say all Poles were murderer or antisemitic, never ever, and I know that we committed a several times or a hundred times or what ever you like to greater crimes but we can accept our crimes and we apologized. Why can't you? You have an excuse for everything.
BTW, one brother of my grandmother was murdered by the Gestapo while helping Jews to flee to the Netherlands. So perhaps you even feel no mercy for him, too.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 05:43
We did apologize. Altough situation is different. You Germans had to apologize for state organised massmurder and genocide. Polish state has never did somthing like that, the Jew in Poland was protected by the law in the same way as Pole. The state is not reposnsible for behaviour of individuals during German occupation. As well as Israel is not responsible for Jewish individual who served communist regime (both Polish and soviet) and was killing Polish patriots during and after the war. Polish secret state did everything what possible to help the Jews, also against the Poles who encouraged by Germans were commiting crimes against them. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 05:52
| what has israel to do with this discussion? Jews killed Poles, so it was a good idea to wipe out some Jews during German occupation, is that what you wanted to say? This now remembers me to Nazi propaganda, Jews are fault on everything. But I see, you won't accept anything. So dream on your dream of innocence. You suffered most of all nations, even of Russians and Jews, your the only good guys and without any fail. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 06:33
Nah, you want to make equal this what Germans were doing with this what Poles were doing, compare somthing what is incomparable.
The completelly different thing is the policy of extermination conducted by German state and criminal acts of individual people. Not to mention the fact that many of those individuals were being encouraged to do so by the German state and when commited criminal act, were not punished for it by Germans but even rewarded. In opposite - Polish underground state was punishing those Poles who commited criminal acts against the Jews.
List of Poles who denounced Jew to Germans, sentenced for death in Warsaw by Polish undergound state and executed in year 1941:
Bogusław alias Borys Pilnik,
Antoni Rozmus - commander of polish criminal police platoon
Jan Grabiec,
Wacław Noworolny,
Tadeusz Stefan Karcz,
Franciszek Sokołowski,
Antoni Pajor,
Janusz Krystek,
Jan Lakiński
Bolesław Szostak,
Antoni Pietrzak.
In case if prolonged law suit could cause danger for life of hiding Jews or the people who were hiding them, Polish underground forces were allowed to imidatelly execute suspected person without the court sentence. For example commander of underground partisan unit Witold Rudnicki ordered to execute without court sentence 4 men who were trying to get monay from group of Jews for not denouncing them to Germans in the area of village Pustelnik near Warsaw.
So what are you comparing Beorna? The state that murdered the millions of Jews with the state that was protecting them even if had to kill its own countrymen? ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 07:06
| am I comparing? Are you reading? |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 18:30
I can read. Your message is not a new one, iv seen it before. It moreless goes like this: We Germans did evil things but we apologised for it. Others like Poles did bad things but didnt apologised for it. We Germans werent worse than others were, especially Poles. We did persecuated Jews before the war but so did the Poles and some other nations.
In this light you convince yourself that others are as guilty as your own nation. But the main difference is that your nation outlawed the Jews long before the war while in other coutries they were protected by the law until Germany occupied them. The difference is that others like tens thousands of Poles risked their own lifes and lifes of their famillies to save Jews from Germans while Germans were rewarding every Pole who denounced Jew and murdering everyone who didnt together with his familly. Whats more, many of those nationalistic antisemitic Poles who before the war were descriminating Jews, during the war was helping them. Just read the momeoirs of many of holocaust survivors who were hidden by people considered as anti-semites. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 19:54
German information for Poles, written in Polish:
"It was discovered that many jews are being hidden by the poles. Whoever will help the jews, feed them or hide, will be punished by death. This is final warning".
And another one in both Polish and German. On the begining there is written that Jews who are leaving their district wihtout permission will recive death sentenced and next that all the non Jews who will help them, will be executed as well.
 ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2009 at 19:56
In fact if i were you, i would feel ashamed for posting such things. You Germans can apologize for yoursel but dont dare to tell the others what is right and what is wrong. ------------- "I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche |
Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2009 at 02:38
| I am not the one who doesn't feel mercy! |
Posted By: opuslola
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2009 at 03:56
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Merry Christmas! Peace and Goodwill to all!
There is no harm in letting this discussion die! Regards, ------------- http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/ |
Posted By: Sander
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2009 at 08:16
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