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The Origins of Japanese people

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: East Asia
Forum Discription: The Far East: China, Korea, Japan and other nearby civilizations
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24964
Printed Date: 29-Mar-2024 at 11:07
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Topic: The Origins of Japanese people
Posted By: Guests
Subject: The Origins of Japanese people
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 15:01

The origins of the Japanese people is not entirely clear yet. It is common for Japanese people to think that Japan is not part of Asia since it is an island, cut off from the continent. This tells a lot about how they see themselves in relation to their neighbours. But in spite of what the Japanese may think of themselves, they do not have extraterrestrial origins, and are indeed related to several peoples in Asia.

We shall have to go back a long way through history and analyse in depth the culture and language of the archipelago and try to find out whether the Japanese are indeed unique, and in what way.

During the last Ice Age, which ended approximately 15,000 years ago, Japan was connected to the continent through several land bridges, notably one linking the Ryukyu Islands to Taiwan and Kyushu, one linking Kyushu to the Korean peninsula, and another one connecting Hokkaido to Sakhalin and the Siberian mainland. In fact, the Philippines and Indonesia were also connected to the Asian mainland. This allowed migrations from China and Austronesia towards Japan, about 35,000 years ago. These were the ancestors of the modern Ryukyuans (Okinawans), and the first inhabitants of all Japan.

The Ainu came from Siberia and settled in Hokkaido and Honshu some 15,000 years ago, just before the water levels started rising again. Nowadays the Ryukuyans, the Ainus and the Japanese are considered three ethnically separate groups. We will see why.

Genetic evidence

It is now believed that the modern Japanese descend mostly from the interbreeding of the Jomon Era people (15,000-300 BCE), composed of the above Ice Age settlers, and a later arrival from China and/or Korea. Around 300 BCE, the Yayoi people crossed the see from Korea to Kyushu, bringing with them a brand new culture, based on wet rice cultivation and horses.

DNA tests have confirmed the likelihood of this hypothesis. The Y-DNA (paternal line) of the modern Japanese is composed at 50% of haplogroup O, of Sino-Korean origin. The rest is made of three haplogroups C, D and N. The 15% of haplogroups C and N, or Siberian origin, might have come through the Ainus, but more probably through the Yayoi invaders.

The 35% of haplogroup D (or DE) is the most interesting for this study. It is only found in very specific regions : the Andaman Islands (between India and Myanmar), Indonesia (only a small minority), Mongolia (also a small minority) and Tibet. It is thought to have originated in East Africa some 50,000 years before present. Those people would have migrated along the coasts of the Indian Ocean, through Indonesia, and gone up to Japan, South-East Siberia, then moved inland to Mongolia to end up in Tibet.

It likely that haplogroup D represents the settlers of Austronesian and Ainu origin. The presence of this haplogroup in a minority of Indonesian people confirms the link between the two countries. As for the Ainu, we know from the last surviving tribes of "pure" Ainu (most of whom live in Sakhalin rather than Japan) that almost all of them belong to haplogroup D. It would mean that the aboriginal people of Japan, the Ryukyuans and the Ainus, are ultimately related.

The Austronesian connection

The Indonesians, Malaysians and Philipinos originated from Southern China. They migrated on boats via Taiwan and displaced the original inhabitants that might have been related to Dravidians of Southern India. We will see below that it is possible that some of these early Austronesians may have been the ancestors of the Ice Age settlers of Japan.

From a linguistic point of view, Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia and Japanese language share only a few similarities, but nonetheless striking ones. Apart from the very similar pronunciation in both languages, there is the same hierarchical differences in personal pronouns. For example "you" is either anda or kamu with the same meaning and usage as anata and kimi in Japanese. Likewise, the Japanese verb suki ("to like") translates suka in Bahasa. Such similarities are probably more than mere coincidences, and may reveal a common origin. Furthermore, in both languages the plural can be formed by simply doubling the word. For instance, in Japanese hito means "person", while hitobito means "people". Likewise ware means "I" or "you", whereas wareware means "we". Doubling of words in Japanese is so common that there is a special character used only to mean the word is doubled (々) in written Japanese. In Bahasa, this way of forming the plural is almost systematical (person is orang, while people is orang-orang). Expressions like ittekimasu, itteirashai, tadaima and okaeri, used to greet someone who leaves or enter a place, and which have no equivalent in Indo-European languages, have exact equivalents in Indonesian (selamat jalan, selamat tinggal...).

Another evidence of the migration of haplogroup D from the Indian Ocean to Japan is that Tamil language (from Tamil Nadu in South India) also bears some uncanny similarities with Japanese language. Naturally, these languages having evolved separately for maybe 40,000 years, only a tiny fraction of the common roots have subsisted, but enough to confirm that such a common origin might indeed have existed, in a very distant past.

Japanese matsuri (festivals) resemble so much Balinese ones that one could wonder if one was not copied from the other. During cremations in Bali, the dead body is carried on a portable shrine, very much in the way that the Japanese carry their mikoshi. Balinese funerals are joyful and people swinging the portable shrine in the streets and making loud noise to scare the evil spirits. Basically, Balinese religion is a form of http://www.jref.com/culture/origins_japanese_people.shtml# -




Replies:
Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2008 at 16:25
Just in case anyone wondered, the text is from this site: http://www.jref.com/culture/origins_japanese_people.shtml# - http://www.jref.com/culture/origins_japanese_people.shtml#


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2008 at 05:21
http://www.kahaku.go.jp/special/past/japanese/ipix/5/5-14.html
More about the research:
In recent years, more archaeological and genetic evidence have been found in both eastern http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China - China and western Japan to lend credibility to this argument. Between 1996 and 1999, a team led by Satoshi Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Science_Museum_of_Japan - National Science Museum , compared Yayoi remains found in Japan's http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaguchi_Prefecture - Yamaguchi and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fukuoka_Prefecture - Fukuoka prefectures with those from early http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Dynasty - Han Dynasty ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/202_BC - 202 BC - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8 - 8 ) in China's coastal http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jiangsu - Jiangsu province, and found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yayoi_period#cite_note-7 - [8] Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jōmon period. The genetic samples from three of the 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains.

Surprisingly, Japanese also display the highest frequency of haplogroup O3a5, which is a Han Chinese and Sino-Tibetan specific O3 branch.

http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content-nw/full/172/4/2431/TBL1

Xue et. al.

Japanese
Haplogroup O3a5 (O3e)  10/47= 23%

This frequency is about 5% higher than the frequency of O3a5 among Manchus, Koreans and other Northeast Asians.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Sep-2008 at 09:48
The O3a3 branch of O3 occurs at higher frequencies among Manchus, Hmong-Mien people and Koreans suggesting that Koreans and Manchus are related to Hmong-Mien people, who are thought to have originated in Northeast Asia and eventually driven out by the Han Chinese to Southeast Asia and Southern China.
http://hmongstudies.org/GYLeeHSJ8.pdf


O3 (M122) distributed throughout Central Asia, East Asia, Southeast Asia, and the Austronesian regions of Oceania, with O3a3 (LINE1, M159) represented in Hmong-Mien people; and O3a5 (M134) in Sino-Tibetan peoples.


So the haplogroup O3 found among Koreans and Manchurians are related to the southeast Asian ethnic groups (Miao, Hmong) who also live in China and the haplogroup O3 found among Japanese are related to the Sino-Tibetan ethnic groups (Han Chinese) who live predominantly in China.


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 10:45
bumpErmm

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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 13:16
 
The Fallacy of Sinophobia ....

There is a major misconception that has been pushing certain Japanese and Korean scholars to find non-Chinese origin for them to feel safe, but the source of their fear was a phantom, a propagandist claim within their neo-Confucian factions that used sinocentrist rhetoric of their times to gain unfair advantage over liberalist ideas.

One need not fight a Chinese enemy that does not exist.The great diversity of the origin and evolution of Chinese civilization that has been gaining steady momentum should rid the need for pursuing a non-Chinese origin for there is no such thing as a single Chinese origin.

It is to point out the fact that many Japanese and Korean sources blindedly followed the "Out-of-Lake Baikal/Mongol Hypothesis of Japanese/Korean Origin" which has become rather popular during the 1970's in the so-called Egami's "Horserider Theory of Japanese Origin.".

J. Edward Kidder, Jr. covered the history of horses in Japan in his article "The Archaeology of the Early Horse-Riders in Japan".He also provided some great evidence that discredits a few pillars of Egami's horseriders theory.

Horserider Theory,first proposed by Egami and modified by Ledyard, is about the invasion from the continent through Korea of a horse-riding tribe who conquered Japan and founded the Yamato state around 4th century AD. But this theory has few supporters nowadays, as it has been heavily criticized from an archeological point of view.
 
 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 13:22
 
Here is one academic research on ' dual origins ' of the Japanese.

A set of 81 Y chromosome single nucleotide polymorphisms (SNPs) was used to trace the origins of Paleolithic and Neolithic components of the Japanese paternal gene pool, and to determine the relative contribution of Jomon and Yayoi Y chromosome lineages to modern Japanese. Our global sample consisted of >2,500 males from 39 Asian populations, including six populations sampled from across the Japanese archipelago. Japanese populations were characterized by the presence of two major (D and O) and two minor (C and N) clades of Y chromosomes, each with several sub-lineages. Haplogroup D chromosomes were present at 34.7% and were distributed in a U-shaped pattern with the highest frequency in the northern Ainu and southern Ryukyuans. In contrast, haplogroup O lineages (51.8%) were distributed in an inverted U-shaped pattern with a maximum frequency on Kyushu. Coalescent analyses of Y chromosome short tandem repeat diversity indicated that haplogroups D and C began their expansions in Japan ~20,000 and ~12,000 years ago, respectively, while haplogroup O-47z began its expansion only ~4,000 years ago. We infer that these patterns result from separate and distinct genetic contributions from both the Jomon and the Yayoi cultures to modern Japanese, with varying levels of admixture between these two populations across the archipelago. The results also support the hypothesis of a Central Asian origin of Jomonese ancestors, and a Southeast Asian origin of the ancestors of the Yayoi, contra previous models based on morphological and genetic evidence.

Source: http://www.springerlink.com/content/p31g0300430k6215/ - http://www.springerlink.com/content/p31g0300430k6215/
 
In geographic accuracy,SE Asia ( which has been false representative of Thailand Vietnam Burma Cambodia,these nations are nowhere near eastern part of Asia continent ) is China's coastal region of Jiangsu & Zhejiang provinces ( we can include China's Fujian & Canton by default for being parts of a same continental country ).


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 13:32
 
Japanese are more ' mud ' than you all previously believed.

Japan's foremost nationalist,Tokyo Gov. Shintaro Ishihara, wrote in 1968, for example, that Japan was effectively a homogenous country that had maintained an "absolutely original culture" for centuries.

26 years later,he refuted his own words.

In Ishihara's 1994 book "No-to-ieru Asia" ("Asia that can say no"), however, he described the perception of Japan as an ethnically homogeneous country as absurd, stating that Japan is a mixture of "all the ethnic groups in Asia."


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 13:38
 
Linguistics is not the sole barometer of ethnic groups.

There certinly isn't any evidence that Korean and Japanese are Altaic Languages. It's just something some Finnish Scientist made up and everyone else just assumed to be true. Korean is similar, if not related, to Japanese. They are Grammatically pretty identical where as vocabulary wise they are no.

Since when did language groups denote race ?

Japanese language indeed has some characteristics that make it close to the Altaic languages (Turkic, Mongolian, Manchu-Tungusic, Korean), but the Altaic languages don't constitue a genetic language family, as Indo-European for example. Their similarities come from cohabitation and borrowing. It is thus not surprising that Japanese would share some of those similarities with NE Asia.

Those words are identical because they are borrowings of the same word in Chinese .... i.e. .. kazoku, sentaku

the Ainu are definitely Asians, and more precisely proto-Mongoloids (not mongolians!). It is clear from biologic studies.People from Okinawa and other Ryukyu islands are closer to Jomon people and to Aynu than Mainland Japanese. And they speak what we call "Ryukyuan", a sister language of Japanese, not related to the languages of Taiwan.

What I meant is that all Japanese and Ainu are a mixture of Jomon and Yayoi, and the Jomon element is the strongest in Aynu first, Ryukyuans second, and Mainland Japanese last. So, while they remain close to the Mainland Japanese, Ryukyuan people have also a quite strong affinity with Ainu.

 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 20-Oct-2008 at 14:13
 
It is not only Japanese people who recognize that the Ryukyuan languages belong in the same family as the Japanese language/dialects. Any student of linguistics can guarantee you that the Ryukyuan and Japanese languages share a very large percentage of cognate vocabulary.This is a very soundly established fact; it should not be considered alongside the likes of ridiculous attempts to relate the Japanese language to  .. Hawaiian .. Korean .. Basque .. or whatever.
 
To anyone who knows Japanese, these words look and sound like some sort of weird Japanese dialect, and not a truly foreign language. More importantly, regular "laws" of sound change can be formulated to explain the development of the observed Ryukyuan forms and the observed Japanese forms from their common ancestral language, Proto-Japanese-Ryukyuan ( or Proto-Japonic, whatever you may call it ).

For example, here is a list of the first four words in the "Adjectives" section of http://ryukyu-lang.lib.u-ryukyu.ac.jp/nkjn/part.php?area=NK&ID=6&pg=1 - the online Nakijin Dialect Dictionary (includes voice samples):

/?a'iguruuseN/ ("rare, seldom occurring") = Japanese */ar-i-gurusi-i/ ("painfully difficult to be") (This word does not actually exist in Japanese, but it hypothetically could, and it would be cognate with the Nakijin form.)

/?a[?k]aaseN/ ("red") = Japanese /aka-i/ ("red")

/?aQseN/ ("shallow") = Japanese /asa-i/ ("shallow")

/?aQcibeeseN/ ("walks with a fast pace, to be a fast walker") = Japanese */aruk-i-baya-i/ (hypothetically could exist in Japanese with the same meaning, but Japanese people do not actually use this expression)
 
Some distinctions between Japanese and Central Okinawan (Shuri).

あ、い、う、え、お is usually あ、い、う、い、う
thus かぜ becomes かじ、 こめ becomes くみ、そば becomes すば

い in JPN adjectives = さん
あまい=あまさん、あつい=あちさん、おもしろい=うむさん、やすい=やっさん、など

And so, I repeat, Japanese and Ryukyuan languages are indisputably related.
 
If anything, the Koreans and Japanese should see themselves more as having a common history of imported Chinese language and philosophy.Their languages have gotten more similar over time.
 

 


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 02:35

Just to correct some truly bizarre statements:

Originally posted by pebbles

There certinly isn't any evidence that Korean and Japanese are Altaic Languages. It's just something some Finnish Scientist made up and everyone else just assumed to be true. Korean is similar, if not related, to Japanese. They are Grammatically pretty identical where as vocabulary wise they are no.

Shared grammer is an extremely strong indicator of linguistic relationships. If two languages have the same grammar, but different vocabulary, it suggests that they began as the same language but picked up different outside influences later.

Originally posted by pebbles

Their similarities come from cohabitation and borrowing. It is thus not surprising that Japanese would share some of those similarities with NE Asia.

Originally posted by pebbles

It is not only Japanese people who recognize that the Ryukyuan languages belong in the same family as the Japanese language/dialects. Any student of linguistics can guarantee you that the Ryukyuan and Japanese languages share a very large percentage of cognate vocabulary.

Actually, languages that develop shared vocabulary but have different grammar are usually considered to have different roots, but long co-habitation.

Originally posted by pebbles

Since when did language groups denote race ?

Never. You're boxing with shadows.

Originally posted by pebbles

Japanese language indeed has some characteristics that make it close to the Altaic languages (Turkic, Mongolian, Manchu-Tungusic, Korean), but the Altaic languages don't constitue a genetic language family, as Indo-European for example.

Wait a minute...so Indo-European languages, unlike Altaic ones, ARE genetically determined? That doesn't make any sense. There's no such thing as a "genetic language family."

Originally posted by pebbles

If anything, the Koreans and Japanese should see themselves more as having a common history of imported Chinese language and philosophy.Their languages have gotten more similar over time.

Out of curiosity, what is your source on this? What about the Japanese and Korean languages and cultures leads you to believe that their roots lie in China? Why do you think that their linguistic similarity is the result of Chinese influence, when their similar elements (grammar, as you said above) are not shared by Chinese language?

Originally posted by pebbles

There is a major misconception that has been pushing certain Japanese and Korean scholars to find non-Chinese origin for them to feel safe, but the source of their fear was a phantom, a propagandist claim within their neo-Confucian factions that used sinocentrist rhetoric of their times to gain unfair advantage over liberalist ideas.

One need not fight a Chinese enemy that does not exist.The great diversity of the origin and evolution of Chinese civilization that has been gaining steady momentum should rid the need for pursuing a non-Chinese origin for there is no such thing as a single Chinese origin.

Indeed, there is no need for Japan and Korea to fight China, and China is a wonderful, diverse place. However, the fact that many things come from China doesn't mean that everything comes from China.



Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 12:25
Originally posted by pebbles

 
Japanese are more ' mud ' than you all previously believed.


  what do you mean by this?


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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 12:36
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

There's no such thing as a "genetic language family."

Out of curiosity, what is your source on this? What about the Japanese and Korean languages and cultures leads you to believe that their roots lie in China? Why do you think that their linguistic similarity is the result of Chinese influence.

 

 
 
Yea ... tell it to hypernationalist Korean wackos and non-NE Asian surrogates pushing their pro-Japanese & Korean relatedness or non-Chinese origin of Japanese & Korean ' agenda ' here and elsewhere in cyberspace LOL
 
Both Japanese & Korean languages shared 50%-60% ' Chinese ' vocabulary.
 
 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 12:40
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by pebbles

 
Japanese are more ' mud ' than you all previously believed.


  what do you mean by this?
 
 
Don't the Japanese always pride themselves as ethnically homogeneous  LOL
 
 
* Professor Masao Oka on " Race,Ethnicity,Migration of Japan ",an archaeologist noted the Japanese people came from 5 population groups.

(1) north-eastern Asiatic Tungusic
(2) Austro-Asiatic
(3) Altaic group
(4) south-eastern Asiatic group of Austronesian origin
(5) ethnic group of Melanesian origin
http://books.google.com/books?id=_ffOut-Ay_8C&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=Oka+Masao&source=web&ots=Gu9GMHZmU_&sig=c-Pdpbru408IkAJhg_rwv_IXXqo&hl=en - http://books.google.com/books?id=_ffOut-Ay_8C&pg=PA140&lpg=PA140&dq=Oka+Masao&source=web&ots=Gu9GMHZmU_&sig=c-Pdpbru408IkAJhg_rwv_IXXqo&hl=en


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 12:40
http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/%7Emcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf - http://www.scs.uiuc.edu/~mcdonald/WorldHaplogroupsMaps.pdf

Japanese are pretty unique, haplo D only shared by tibetan and adaman islanders. i came across this before the d group


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 12:41
Plot for japanese people and other asian people based on Y-chromosome comparison and distances:
 
Abstract:
Based on the frequencies of these two clades (my note - Y haplogroups D, O-P31 and O-M 122, which account for 86.9% of Japanese Y haplogroups), we estimate the Jomon contribution to modern Japanese to be 40.3%, with the highest frequency in the Ainu (75%) and Ryukyuans (60%). On the other hand, Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages, with the highest contribution in Kyushu (62.3%) and lower contributions in Okinawa (37.8%) and northern Honshu (46.2%). Interestingly there is no evidence of Yayoi lineages in the Ainu.
 
...and...
In summary, our data suggest that Paleolithic male lineages entered Japan at least 12,000-20,000 years ago from Central Asia, and were isolated for thousands of years once land bridges between Japan and continental Asia disappeared at the end of the last glacial maximum (~12,000 years ago). More recently, Y chromosomes that originated in Southeast Asia expanded to Korea and Japan with the spread of wet rice agriculture. The ages and spatial patterns of haplogroups D and O in Japan are concordant with the hypothesis that Y chromosomes spread via a process of demic difussion during the Yayoi period (Sokal and Thomso, 1998). Each of the populations carrying these differentiated lineages made separate contributions to modern Japanese, both genetically and culturally. In contrast to previous models, we propose that the Yayoi Y chromosomes descend from prehistoric farmers that had their origins in Southeastern Asia, perhaps going back to the origin of agriculture in this region. This places the Yayoi in the context of other population expansions stimulated by the acquisition of agriculture, whereby farmer societies gained advantage over hunter-gatherer societies (Diamond and Bellwood, 2003). In this case, however the Jomon hunter gatherers may have held off the onslaught of farmers for thousands of years as a result of their highly succesful brand of subsistence. The dramatic Yayoi transition may have been triggered in 400 B.C. by a combination of developments, such as rice field irrigation, cold-resistant rice strains, an increasing Korean population and the invention of iron tools for producing farming implements (Diamond 1998). The data indicate, however, that Jomon genes survive in contemporary Japanese, possibly because their unique and varied culture complemented that of the immigrant famers.
 
From Michael F. Hammer et al. (2005)
 
Cheers!


Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 12:51
Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by pebbles

 
Japanese are more ' mud ' than you all previously believed.


  what do you mean by this?
 
 
Don't the Japanese always pride themselves as ethnically homogeneous  LOL
 
 
They are one ethnic group?!? Aniu excepted, japan is pretty much one ethnic society.

 wow, everyone has multi- ancestry nothing unique here. i do but i dont walk around saying i am a 'pie chart', nope im greek. Ethnos (nationality) is perceved and yes interchanged with genos (blood line) but that is a human condition. Not a japanese one.


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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 13:19
 
 
Jared Diamond's ' Japanese Roots ' is a joke,he wrote it in 1998 Discovery Magazine .... it's the article set-off ' Japanese & Korean blood tie obsession frenzy frantic.gif '  in cyberspace since 2005.In all honesty,it's quite disturbing and pathetic.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 14:54
 
One fundamental is that majority typical Japanese have sharp narrower small faces and slender built oppose to broader-faced Koreans with big-bone bulky physical built.
 
In term of looks,Japanese and Korean look quite different.
 

Great disparity of these basic physical characteristics is sufficient to ' debunk ' any argument that Japanese and Koreans are more closely related than with other NE Asian groups.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Oct-2008 at 22:59
Originally posted by pebbles

 
One fundamental is that majority typical Japanese have sharp narrower small faces and slender built oppose to broader-faced Koreans with big-bone bulky physical built.
 
In term of looks,Japanese and Korean look quite different.
 
Well, it´s true that physical anthropology can help when looking at people that share a same origin ... but(!) you´ll find north europeans with broad faces, broad shouldered  broad noses, dark hair, pale skin that have the same origin as long faced, slender built, narrow nosed and blonde people, both when comparing Y-DNA and mtDNA.
 
Facial features within the same race are often the result of adaptation, nutrition, sexual selection, living conditions etc.
 
Koreans and japaneses do differ when looking at genetics, but not much more (probaly a little more) than central european and italians do IMO. Both are represented as seperated by two natural barries:
 
Korea vs Japan: The Korea strait.
Central Europe vs Italy: The Alps.
 
...it´s also regional when looking on how close the japaneses are to other EA people (as seen in the chart I posted above), it´s a distance, but not THAT much of a distance.


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 06:28

Originally posted by pebbles

Yea ... tell it to hypernationalist Korean wackos and non-NE Asian surrogates pushing their pro-Japanese & Korean relatedness or non-Chinese origin of Japanese & Korean ' agenda ' here and elsewhere in cyberspace FPRIVATE "TYPE=PICT;ALT=LOL"

If I run into one, I will. At the moment, though, you're the one who appears to be conflating genetic ancestry with the development of cultural and ethnic identities.

Originally posted by pebbles

Both Japanese & Korean languages shared 50%-60% ' Chinese ' vocabulary.

When they started adopting Chinese vocabulary, along with Chinese writing, these nations already had established cultures of their own. So this doesn't tell us anything about their origins (cultural origins, that is). The Chinese influence on the later development of Japan and Korea is undeniable, of course.

Originally posted by pebbles

One fundamental is that majority typical Japanese have sharp narrower small faces and slender built oppose to broader-faced Koreans with big-bone bulky physical built.

In term of looks,Japanese and Korean look quite different.


Great disparity of these basic physical characteristics is sufficient to ' debunk ' any argument that Japanese and Koreans are more closely related than with other NE Asian groups.

I suppose the stereotypical Japanese and the stereotypical Korean may look somewhat different, but in reality most people fall outside these stereotypes and there is a great deal of overlap in the appearance of actual Korean and Japanese people. And frankly I have no idea where your "slender built"/"big-bone bulky physical built" idea comes from.



Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 21:50
Originally posted by Azvarohi

Plot for japanese people and other asian people based on Y-chromosome comparison and distances:
 
Abstract:
Based on the frequencies of these two clades (my note - Y haplogroups D, O-P31 and O-M 122, which account for 86.9% of Japanese Y haplogroups), we estimate the Jomon contribution to modern Japanese to be 40.3%, with the highest frequency in the Ainu (75%) and Ryukyuans (60%). On the other hand, Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages, with the highest contribution in Kyushu (62.3%) and lower contributions in Okinawa (37.8%) and northern Honshu (46.2%). Interestingly there is no evidence of Yayoi lineages in the Ainu.
 
 


Consider the Yayoi Y chromosomes account for 51.9% of Japanese paternal lineages,which has a Southeast Asian origin established by academic source.
 
How is Japanese ethnicity place in NE Asian racial group not more genetically related to continental SE Asian peoples ?!
 


Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 21:55
You guys looks like the same except the Nihonjins are more kawai! I have both Korean and Japanese friends. From my point of view Koreans are more serious in their studies, but Japanese are much cooler to hang out with.Wink

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Anfører


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 23-Oct-2008 at 22:18
 
 
Japan's shoban 諸蕃 ( or 蕃 別 banbetsu ) was a family registry designated Japanese clans known to be of continental descent.


漢帰化族】    naturalized Han-Chinese

周人の末裔【大里氏】【長野氏】【広野氏】【三宅氏】【山田氏】【伊部氏】【白鳥氏】【白原氏】【調氏】【 長岑氏】【首氏】【水海氏】
 
秦の始皇帝の末裔【秦氏】【太秦氏】【惟宗氏】【朝原氏】【大蔵氏】【河勝氏】【桜田氏】【宗氏】【高尾氏】【時原氏】【寺氏】【 秦原氏】【広幡氏】【物集氏】【三林氏】【井手氏】【川辺氏】【中家氏】【原氏】【小宅氏】【井手氏】【長 田氏】【巨知氏】【長岡氏】【奈良氏】【大滝氏】【山村氏】
        
漢の高祖の末裔【厚見氏】【馬氏】【浄野氏】【栗栖氏】【古志氏】【高志氏】【桜野氏】【武生氏】【高道氏 】【玉作氏】【豊岡氏】【春沢氏】【桧前氏】【文氏】【尾津氏】【村主氏】
        
後漢霊帝の末裔【坂上氏】【大蔵氏】【丹波氏】【調氏】【木津氏】【桧原氏】【内蔵氏】【山口氏】【平田氏 】【佐太氏】【谷氏】【桜井氏】【路氏】【文氏】【桧前氏】【蔵人氏】【志賀氏】【広原氏】【池辺氏】【栗 栖氏】
 
その他漢帝の末裔【桑原氏】【下氏】【桧前氏】【若江氏】【田辺氏】【谷氏】【豊岡氏】【八戸氏】【高安氏 】【高道氏】【春井氏】【河内氏】
 
漢の国人の末裔【大原氏】【吉水氏】【真神氏】【台氏】【交野氏】
 
魏人の末裔【高向氏】【上氏】【高根氏】【筑紫氏】【平松氏】【雲梯氏】【郡氏】【河内氏】【河原氏】【鋤 田氏】【野上氏】【広橋氏】【穴太氏】
 
呉人の末裔【蜂田氏】【深根氏】【松野氏】【和楽氏】【工氏】【祝部氏】【額田氏】【勝氏】【上氏】【刑部 氏】【茨田氏】【高向氏】【小豆氏】
 
漢人の末裔【伊吉氏(壱岐氏)】【交野氏】【広海氏】【吉水氏】
 
燕人の末裔【赤染氏】【赤染部氏】【常世氏】【筆氏】
 
唐人の末裔【江田氏】【清宗氏】【清海氏】【清川氏】【浄山氏】【栄山氏】【千代氏】【新長氏 】
 
その他の漢土帰化族【大山氏】【大石氏(生石氏)】【高丘氏】【朝妻氏】【清村氏】【春村氏】
 
http://www.myj7000.jp-biz.net/clan/03/03.htm - http://www.myj7000.jp-biz.net/clan/03/03.htm
 
 
 
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 04:06
The frequency of haplogroup O2b is about 35-47% for Koreans and about 20-35% for Japanese.
Haplogroup C3 dominates in Korea (15-20%), Manchuria (20-25%), Siberia (30-50%), while in Japan it only accounts for 1-2% of Japanese.
Haplogroup O3a5 has moderate distributions throughout Asia.

*Japanese also have the haplogroup D2 branch, which has its origins in Africa->Tibet->Japan. Tibetans and Japanese are probably the closest linked ethnic groups.

http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html - http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html
Korean DNA sequence is made up of:
40.6% Korean
21.9% Chinese
1.6% Ainu
17.4% Okinawan
18.5% Unidentified

Japanese DNA sequence is made up of:
4.8% Japanese
24.2% Korean
25.8% Chinese
8.1% Ainu
16.1% Okinawan
21% Unidentified

Chinese DNA sequence is made up of:
60.6% Chinese
1.5% Japanese
10.6% Korean
1.5% Ainu
10.6% Okinawan
15.2% Unidentified

This research isn't fake, it was done using SNP (Single nucleotide polymorphism). Japanese are probably the least homogenous, genetically. makes sense because its an isolated group of islands.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 02-Nov-2008 at 04:18
The whole Altaic language group is controversial. If it really exists, then I reckon it should include Korean but not Japanese. 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2008 at 15:37
 
Koreans do not have Y chromosome D2.The D2 system is Ainu 88%, the Okinawa people 56%, mainland Japan 50~56% and Korea 0%.
 

 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 07:36
Y haplogroup D mostly occurs only in Tibet, Japan. It only appears at a frequency of 1-2% outside of these areas. Might explain why Tibetans, Japanese and Chinese are very similar in terms of DNA sequences SNP.

Ainu have about 15-20% haplogroup C3.


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 15:39
 
50% of Japanese men have DNA YAP+ whereas the Chinese & Koreans don't LOL
 

 


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 18:00
And ?

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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 19:44
 
The truth of the matter is modern native Japanese are more " indigenous stock " than previously believed that they're basically descended from both Chinese & Korean immigrants.Jomon-jins & Wa-jins account for majority of today's Yamato ethnicity.Torai-jins ( Chinese & Korean ) contributed 10%-15% to Japanese gene pool according to one J scholar.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 19:58
Originally posted by keerisahaizu

The origins of the Japanese people is not entirely clear yet. It is common for Japanese people to think that Japan is not part of Asia since it is an island, cut off from the continent. This tells a lot about how they see themselves in relation to their neighbours. But in spite of what the Japanese may think of themselves, they do not have extraterrestrial origins, and are indeed related to several peoples in Asia.

 
 
 
Historians note that despite the catalog of cultural benefits Japan reaped from its links with China and from the peninsula, many Japanese intellectuals started to look down on their Asian neighbors in the late 19th century, in line with an emerging nationalist fervor in Japan.

Eiji Oguma, an assistant professor of sociology at Keio University, said other parts of Asia have served as a convenient comparative backdrop for Japanese intellectuals to forge a distinct modern national identity.

"The view toward Asia has swayed between respect and contempt in the modern era, corresponding to Japan's position in international politics of the times," he said. "Asian countries have been a convenient tool for a Japan desperate for a strong national identity to offset its historical inferiority complex toward Western countries."

In his award-winning 1995 book, "The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation," Oguma argued that Japanese intellectuals have shifted their beliefs between emphasizing the distinctiveness of Japan's culture and its universal relevance as part of Asia.

The popular view regarding Japan's roots, according to Oguma, has tended to become more Asia-inclusive in times when Japan has challenged the hegemony of the West, such as the prewar period and during the asset-inflated bubble economy of the late 1980s.

During its relatively fallow periods in terms of global influence, however, the country has generally sought to protect its identity by emphasizing its "unique" heritage, he said.
 
Eiji Oguma's online copy of " A Genealogy of 'Japanese' Self-images ",English-translation of his award-winning 1995 book titled Tan'itsu Minzoku Shinwa no Kigen ( The origin of the myth of Japanese as a homogeneous ethnic group or The Myth of the Homogeneous Nation ).
 
http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=DkKrHjCruyMC&dq=Eiji+Oguma&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=FbJNOvoDlU&sig=2_nVerfqJx0SQ4G-m4bFCoVphNo&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPR5,M1 - http://books.google.com/books?hl=en&id=DkKrHjCruyMC&dq=Eiji+Oguma&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=FbJNOvoDlU&sig=2_nVerfqJx0SQ4G-m4bFCoVphNo&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result#PPR5,M1
 
 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2008 at 20:00
 
' Nihonjiron ' is a theory promotes uniqueness & superiorty of Japanese ethnicity.

Regarding the Japanese have been uncomfortable discussing their ' Asian ' roots.There is ' twofold ' to this matter .

( 1 ) Japanese is one Asian ethnicity consciously ' submerge ' their own family origins in the name of ' Yamatoizaton '.
( 2 ) Fukuzawa Yukichi ( 福澤 諭吉 ) instrumentally led Japan & Japanese ' out of Asia ' mentally and pschologically.
 


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 06:52
And Japanese don't have the pure haplogroup C3 (no subclade) that 15%+ Koreans and Siberians (Nivkhs, Koryaks and Buryats) have.

Plus Japanese are more related to Tibetans (high rates of haplogroup D and O3e/O3a5). Japanese are only 20-30% haplogroup O2b, whereas in Koreans it's around 20-48%.

Haplogroup O3a5a (O3e1) is found in Japanese, Tibetans and southern Han Chinese at moderately high frequencies. In fact nearly all of the Japanese haplogroup O3 belong to O3a5.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 06:57
Originally posted by zstripe

The frequency of haplogroup O2b is about 35-47% for Koreans and about 20-35% for Japanese.
Haplogroup C3 dominates in Korea (15-20%), Manchuria (20-25%), Siberia (30-50%), while in Japan it only accounts for 1-2% of Japanese.
Haplogroup O3a5 has moderate distributions throughout Asia.

*Japanese also have the haplogroup D2 branch, which has its origins in Africa->Tibet->Japan. Tibetans and Japanese are probably the closest linked ethnic groups.

http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html - http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html
Korean DNA sequence is made up of:
40.6% Korean
21.9% Chinese
1.6% Ainu
17.4% Okinawan
18.5% Unidentified

Japanese DNA sequence is made up of:
4.8% Japanese
24.2% Korean
25.8% Chinese
8.1% Ainu
16.1% Okinawan
21% Unidentified

Chinese DNA sequence is made up of:
60.6% Chinese
1.5% Japanese
10.6% Korean
1.5% Ainu
10.6% Okinawan
15.2% Unidentified

This research isn't fake, it was done using SNP (Single nucleotide polymorphism). Japanese are probably the least homogenous, genetically. makes sense because its an isolated group of islands.


It seems that Japanese DNA is more influenced by Eastern groups (Tibetans and Han) than Korean.

Migrations to Korean peninsula was probably a very very long time ago, as Koreans have unique DNA, with less Tibetan and Han DNA. So any gene flow from specifically Han Chinese or Japanese to Koreans is very low.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 07:20
http://www.genetics.org/cgi/content-nw/full/172/4/2431/TBL1

Basically shows that nearly all Japanese O3 belongs to O3a5.

In Koreans, most O3 belong to O3*, suggesting ancient origins about 50,000 years ago. In North Koreans, the frequency of O3a5 (O3e) is much lower than other East Asian populations and even some Tungusic peoples.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Nov-2008 at 18:30
No body seems to have mentioned the "Ainu" who are the indegenous people of the Japanese Islands before the arrival of the Present day Japanese from the area around northern China and Korea boardering the Russia federation isn the far east.

First Wave Migration of early humans out africa. Some 100,000 to 70,000 years ago.



The Ainu are aboriginal people derived from Austronesians who migrated North East when they split from other Austronesians who migrated southeast to populate south east asia (we know them as Papuans Melenesians and Australian Aboriginies). Some people ofton mistakingly classify them as part Caucasian or deliberatley claim the Ainu as Caucasian in order to co-op their antiquity as for the Europeans. Because of later admixture with mongoliod types some have tried to cliam them as part of the monoloid race of mankind. Argueing that because they are not dark they canoot be Austronesians stock. However DNA show that they are distantly related to the aboriginal peoples of south asia The Austranesians.

The Ainu look like aboriginies but have skin that appears to be white. The are also more hairy than the Japanese. The are discriminated against in japan because of their appearance. There are not many Aunu left in Japan as most were exterminated by there Japanese invaders or assimilated in an attempt to breed them out of the populated. Current Ainu culture hase been influence by Japanese culture, however, they have managed to retain their distinct language though they have borrowed a few Japanese words writing system. The United Nations recently forced the Japanese Government to recognised them as an endangered enthic minority and to protect them buy law from extinction.

Over thousands of years most of the remaining Ainu Have aquired some Japanese Facial features. However theere are some full blood Ainu still left on Hokkiado Island in the north of Japan. It is from the Ainu that the Japanese derive thier samirai mythology.








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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 16:26
Originally posted by SameButDifferent

It is from the Ainu that the Japanese derive thier samirai mythology.

 
What do you mean by this?


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Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 16:37
 
In the early 20th century,a few Japanese historians credited the chivalrous ( bushido ) spirits to Ainu.Japan's indigenous people were orignally gifted in craftsmanship and martial valour.


Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2008 at 16:58
Weren't the first samurais the frontier guardsmen on the borders with Ainu and Amishu? I read that the Japanese horse archery was actually learned by samurais from Amishu. In this light the argument about bushido adobted from Ainu could indeed make some sense.

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Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 10-Nov-2008 at 05:05

Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by pebbles

Originally posted by Sarmat12

Originally posted by SameButDifferent

It is from the Ainu that the Japanese derive thier samirai mythology.

What do you mean by this?

In the early 20th century,a few Japanese historians credited the chivalrous ( bushido ) spirits to Ainu.Japan's indigenous people were orignally gifted in craftsmanship and martial valour.

Weren't the first samurais the frontier guardsmen on the borders with Ainu and Amishu? I read that the Japanese horse archery was actually learned by samurais from Amishu. In this light the argument could indeed make some sense.

It's a little inaccurate to conflate the Ainu and Emishi into a single entity. From what I can tell, "Emishi" appears to be a catch-all term analogous to "Barbarian". The Early Japanese identified at least three different types of Emishi. The Emishi of central Honshu (the ones that heavily influenced the military development of Japan), are generally considered to have been a hybrid Jomon-Yayoi culture (or cultures).

Some Emishi groups were intimately involved in early Japanese society, and it's entirely possible that many Samurai were, rather than being inspired by Emishi, actually "Emishi" themselves.

Originally posted by Pinguin

It has always called my attention that Japan has the same denial of native roots that the United States. The difference is more striking when we realize Amerindians and East Asians are related in the same way Caucasians and Ainus are.

So Japan is the mirror image of the United States. In the first, the Ainus were forgotten and in the seconds the Indians were. In both cases, the contributions of the native people were buried to benefit of the largest immigrant majority.

Today genetics and archeology are making the records straight

While it's true that the Japanese have an ugly history of marginalizing aboriginal cultures, it isn't a mirror of the American experience. Concerted efforts to eradicate aboriginal cultures didn't really begin until the Meiji era, as part of a nationalization movement that was more analogous to the post-imperial westernization projects of other non-western states than to the American westward expansion.

Further, the Ainu are not "Caucasian". Aside from their tending to be relatively hairy, there's nothing about them that would suggest that.

Originally posted by pebbles

Recent scholarship believed Emishi were descendants of Jomon.

Most Japanese are descended from the Jomon, among other things. The same goes for the Emishi.



Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 11-Nov-2008 at 16:50
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Most Japanese are descended from the Jomon, among other things. The same goes for the Emishi.

 
 
Exactly ... Jomon gene is the largest component of modern Yamato ethnicty.
 
Thumbs down on nutjob Jared Diamond LOL
 
 


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2008 at 16:51
The aboriginal peoples of Japan have always fascinated me, particularly because their presence and resistance against the incoming Japanese people is for the most part ignored in the Japanese education system. I have however attended many cultural exchange programs with Ainu people who are the last surviving window to the aboriginal peoples of the Japanese isles. Despite the fact that obviously they are heavily mixed with Japanese people, they are physically still quite distinct from Japanese people. They have deeper eye sockets, larger and longer nose and more robust facial structure that does not have the east Asian flatness to it. Their facial structure simply made me think that they might have been originally related to Australian aboriginals or Papua New Guineans, which combined with their light skin makes it understandable as to why some anthropologists in the 19th century thought that they have Caucasoid features. The amount of hair they have is not just relatively more than Japanese, but they are the hairiest people I have seen on earth. It was not only the thickness of their beards or eyebrows on their face, but the amount of hair on their body that was very striking to me. Their whole body is covered with a thick mat of hair which was visible from the sleeves and the front and the back of the neck. When I shook hands with an Ainu man I was surprised by the amount of hair on the back of his hand.
According to the study of skeletal remains from the early Jomon period, it is known that Ainu people have the closest craniological features to Jomon people, which shows that after more than two thousand years of conquest, mixing and formations of new ethnic identities between the incoming Yayoi people, some Siberian groups from the north, and native Jomon people, it is safe to assume that Jomon physical characteristcs have survived more in Ainu people than Japanese people. From linguistic evidence such as the personal names of the Emishi people, geographical names left in north Honshu, and the fact that the Japanese needed interpreters to communicate with the Emishi, we can see that the Emishi spoke a distinct non-Japanese language which was  related to the modern Ainu language. Granted that there was a lot of mixing and that the real picture is much more complex, from all this we can still see a rough continuity from the Jomon people to ancient Mojin, to Emishi peoples and today's Ainu people, as opposed to the Yayoi - Yamato - Japanese continuity. Added to this is the Siberian group that came through Sakhalin and Hokkaido, who were distinct from both the Jomon and Yayoi people, and created the Ashihase culture. 
I am quite confident to say that before any mixing occurred between the native Jomon people and the incoming peoples, the two groups were physically very distinct from each other, probably each group belonged to a different wave of out-of-Africa migration. The Jomon people must have been very unique in their appearance and racial development/background.
Pinguin in my opinion makes a good point by comparing the Japanese situation to that of  North America, because from what I have seen, the Jomon physical/genetic contribution to the Japanese people is in a very similar degree to the native American contribution to the (white) north American population. For example it is quite normal for many north Americans who do not look any different from Europeans, to have a native American line somewhere in their ancestry, meaning that the native American ancestry is certainly there in them but not to an extent to alter their European physical appearance dramatically. This in my opinion is the extent of (early) Jomon genetic influence on the Japanese people, that it is certainly there but was simply absorbed into the larger component, not influencing the general appearance of the Japanese people who for the most part do not look any different today from Koreans or the Chinese, apart from them being marginally hairier.  There are still very occasionally some Japanese people who do have the robust face with deep eyes and long nose, especially in the Tohoku region.
Ainu people are disappearing little by little too in spite of the recent movement in Japan to preserve their culture. Almost all the Ainu people I have met are only a quarter or less Ainu.
I hope these sites and pictures help a little.
http://www.emishi-ezo.net/WhoEmishi.htm - http://www.emishi-ezo.net/WhoEmishi.htm
http://www.oldphotosjapan.com/en/photos/144/ainu - http://www.oldphotosjapan.com/en/photos/144/ainu
http://zichi.blogspot.com/2008/06/japan-recognizes-ainu-as-indigenous.html - http://zichi.blogspot.com/2008/06/japan-recognizes-ainu-as-indigenous.html
http://ampontan.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/ainu-2.jpg - http://ampontan.files.wordpress.com/2007/01/ainu-2.jpg
http://www.arco-iris.com/George/images/ainu_pair.jpg - http://www.arco-iris.com/George/images/ainu_pair.jpg
http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/ainu.jpg - http://www.cyberspaceorbit.com/ainu.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/AinuGroup.JPG - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/AinuGroup.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/AinuManStilflied.JPG - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a4/AinuManStilflied.JPG
http://flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2746187012/ - http://flickr.com/photos/24443965@N08/2746187012/



Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 12-Nov-2008 at 17:22
Originally posted by omshanti

  Their facial structure simply made me think that they might have been originally related to Australian aboriginals or Papua New Guineans,
 
I have always found the history of Australoid groups interesting.
 
As a side note, Australoid groups are found in Pakistan, India, Sri Lanka, Thailand and Malaysia. The Pakistani, Thai and Malay groups are very small where as the Indian and Sri Lankan groups are relatively larger. 
 
Some Indian bands in California (now extinct) were described by the Spanish as having Australoid features. I think that there are still very small numbers of people in Somalia and Yemen with Australoid features.   They migrated through South Asia and then split into tow migration patterns. The alrgest was to Australia with a smaller population going to Northeren Japan and eventually, the Americas.   
 
 
 
Originally posted by omshanti


I am quite confident to say that before any mixing occurred between the native Jomon people and the incoming peoples, the two groups were physically very distinct from each other, probably each group belonged to a different wave of out-of-Africa migration.
My theory is that Australoids were the first people to leave Africa.  But, they left in smaller groupss with a lower level of technology and social development. As a result, they were  gradually forced into more isolated areas by larger, better equipped and better orgainized Asiatic and Caucasoid groups.  
 
 


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 00:01

Originally posted by omshanti

The aboriginal peoples of Japan have always fascinated me, particularly because their presence and resistance against the incoming Japanese people is for the most part ignored in the Japanese education system.

Yes, this is a terrible shame. Until recently, there really doesn't seem to have been much curiosity at all about the interaction between early Japanese cultures.

Originally posted by omshanti

From linguistic evidence such as the personal names of the Emishi people, geographical names left in north Honshu, and the fact that the Japanese needed interpreters to communicate with the Emishi, we can see that the Emishi spoke a distinct non-Japanese language which was related to the modern Ainu language. Granted that there was a lot of mixing and that the real picture is much more complex, from all this we can still see a rough continuity from the Jomon people to ancient Mojin, to Emishi peoples and today's Ainu people, as opposed to the Yayoi - Yamato - Japanese continuity.

Here I have to take issue with you. The following article: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/ainu.html, suggests that, culturally at least, the Emishi were not Jomon. Even the Emishi who established the Satsumon culture on Hokkaido were a predominantly Yayoi culture whose "material culture resembles that of these early state peoples, particularly the Nara and Heian regimes."

While the Jomon genetic heritage certainly remains strongest in the north, that doesn't mean that the Emishi, or today's Ainu, are necessarily the cultural descendants of the Jomon. Since southern Honshu was ground zero for immigration to Japan, continental genetic influence was bound to be largest there, regardless of how cultural influences spread around the islands.

A strong argument can be made that the Yamato and the Emishi cultures neighbouring them were more closely related to each other than to anything else, and that they were deeply interconnected. I find it interesting that everyone agrees many Emishi accepted imperial rule, but little thought seems to be given to what these tribes' role was once they became part of Yamato society. Early Japanese society was probably a mish-mash of cultures that only congealed into what we now call "Japanese" much later.

Originally posted by omshanti

I am quite confident to say that before any mixing occurred between the native Jomon people and the incoming peoples, the two groups were physically very distinct from each other, probably each group belonged to a different wave of out-of-Africa migration. The Jomon people must have been very unique in their appearance and racial development/background.

Pinguin in my opinion makes a good point by comparing the Japanese situation to that of North America, because from what I have seen, the Jomon physical/genetic contribution to the Japanese people is in a very similar degree to the native American contribution the (white) north American population. For example it is quite normal for many north Americans who do not look any different from Europeans, to have a native American line somewhere in their ancestry, meaning that the native American ancestry is certainly there in them but not to an extent to alter their European physical appearance dramatically.

Following from what I wrote above, if the Yamato and Emishi were both Yayoi cultures, then the most appropriate analogy for the Yamato/Emishi relationship would probably be the English/French colonies' relationship in North America, rather than the European/Aboriginal one. In both cases new cultures were competing to replace what had existed before, but in radically different ways.

Like the Emishi, New France had a relatively low population and a relatively high level of hybridization between native and imported culture. Like the Yamato, New England had a relatively high population and a relatively low level of hybridization with native cultures, and stronger links to the source of its imported culture. Like the Yamato, the English would gradually emerge as the dominant culture, but not without being heavily influenced by the French and Aboriginal cultures it encountered, and those cultures have continued to develop within the English-dominated society since (as the Emishi did, for centuries, within Japanese society).



Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 13-Nov-2008 at 13:58
Bernard Woolley, it seems to me that we are talking about two different things. The focus of my post was on the physical/biological aspect of people and their relation to each other. In short I was talking about race.  I know that many people have issues with this but that is a different matter all together as nobody can change my interest and focus on the physical aspects of human/hominid evolution and interactions.
On the other hand your focus, at least on the surface, seems to be on culture.
I can see that there is a general problem in the subject that might cause confusion between the racial aspect and the cultural aspect of the jomon-Yayoi or aboriginal-foreign relations in the Japanese isles. Namely the fact that the native peoples responsible for the making of Jomon culture and the immigrants whose possession and importation of agriculture was responsible for the Yayoi culture, lack their own names and are often simply identified with the names of the cultures they created, apart from the ambiguous name 'Yamato' for the latter group. This probably caused the confusion between the focus of my post and your post. As we know, although intimately related, culture and people are two different things and can travel differently.
My post was also about the aboriginal-foreign relation of people in Japan as a whole both in time and space of which the Emishi are only a part of, as opposed to your stronger focus on the Emishi and their culture.
In conclusion, I see nothing in your post that contradicts anything in my post.

The obvious difference between the Jomon culture and the Yayoi culture is that the former is characterised by hunter-gatherer lifestyle and the latter by agricultural or farming lifestyle which was introduced by the immigrants who started migrating into the Japanese isles from around 400BC onwards.
Satsumon culture which is together with the Okhotsk culture considered to be ancestral to the Ainu culture was created sometime around 600AD~800AD by the Emishi people who fled from the severe wars of conquest by the Japanese against the Emishi in eastern and northern Honshu. The article I posted: http://www.emishi-ezo.net/WhoEmishi.htm - http://www.emishi-ezo.net/WhoEmishi.htm in which you found the article: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/ainu.html - http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/hokkaido/ainu.html , very clearly mentions the following: ''According to archeological findings from the fifth to the seventh centuries AD, the northern half of Tohoku (roughly extending from northern Miyagi prefecture to Aomori) and the western part of Hokkaido formed a single cultural area, and many Ainu place names are left in the Tohoku. It is beyond the discussion of this introduction to go into the Jomon, Epi-Jomon and Yayoi cultures as they affected the Tohoku region, but to simplify this discussion, it is now believed that evidence points to the Emishi tie in with the Tohoku Middle Yayoi pottery culture that is heavily influenced by Jomon forms--almost as if these peoples were gradually adopting Yayoi culture from the seventh to the eighth centuries.''

I have no objection to and do not remember writing anything against Emishi people being of mixed stock of aboriginals and immigrants, especially since
1. They had already possessed agriculture which was one of the cornerstones of the immigrants and the Yayoi culture.
2. They were in Honshu the same island the immigrants landed, and shared borders with the Yamato/Japanese people.
3. Their presence and resistance is mainly noted long after 400BC which was when the immigrants started to come in.

So it is natural to assume that they were already heavily mixed with the immigrants, however this is where we have to think about the merits of agriculture over hunter-gatherer lifestyle. Agriculture or farming lifestyle can sustain far larger population than the hunter-gatherer lifestyle. This in my opinion is the main reason the immigrants flourished in their numbers wherever they settled and were able to outnumber and absorb the aboriginal peoples without receiving from them any dramatic genetic influence enough to alter their physical appearance.
However, from
1. the chronology of changes in the pottery styles in the Tohoku region which changed from epi-Jomon to Yayoi styles around 600AD
2. the low population around the same time of the Emishi people compared to the Yamato people
3. their geographical location (Michinoku) which was the furthest in Honshu from where the immigrants came in.
4. their recorded appearance, such as their hairiness
5. their language
we can see that the influence of the immigrants was still recent and minimal, and that they still retained a much larger aboriginal element in them, both physically and linguistically, compared to the Yamato/Japanese people.

So I would say yes, your analogy of comparing the Yamato-Emishi relation to that of the English-French colonies in north America with the focus on culture does work, but my analogy of comparing the whole aboriginal-foreign relation of Japan to that of the native-European relation in north America with the focus on physical anthropology and racial influence does also work.

I don't agree with your statement that little thought has been given in this thread regarding the contribution of the Emishi to the Japanese. The discussion of the Emishi and indigenous people started in this thread with the focus on their military contribution and their influence on (or possibly their creation of) the Samurai class within the Yamato/Japanese society. So it all started from the thought about their contribution. I would be very happy though to hear about more than just military contribution.




Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 04:04

Originally posted by omshanti

Bernard Woolley, it seems to me that we are talking about two different things.

I think I'd agree. I'll clarify that I didn't disagree with you on the main point you were making, and as you mentioned, the source of confusion was probably that we each attached different meanings to "Jomon" and "Yayoi".

A recent string of posts have suggested that the Ainu and their ancestors are basically equivalent to the native peoples of North America - I think this is inaccurate, and perhaps stems from a romanticization of the Ainu that does a disservice to their actual place in Japanese history.

Originally posted by omshanti

So I would say yes, your analogy of comparing the Yamato-Emishi relation to that of the English-French colonies in north America with the focus on culture does work, but my analogy of comparing the whole aboriginal-foreign relation of Japan to that of the native-European relation in north America with the focus on physical anthropology and racial influence does also work.

And on this I agree with you.

Originally posted by omshanti

I don't agree with your statement that little thought has been given in this thread regarding the contribution of the Emishi to the Japanese. The discussion of the Emishi and indigenous people started in this thread with the focus on their military contribution and their influence on (or possibly their creation of) the Samurai class within the Yamato/Japanese society. So it all started from the thought about their contribution. I would be very happy though to hear about more than just military contribution.

Oh, I didn't mean on this thread. I'm very happy that the subject is being discussed here. I meant that, in the world beyond this forum, I've found information about Japan's ethnic history hard to come by (Of course, I suppose that may simply be because I'm way over here in North America where libraries tend not to stock many books on the subject).



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 07:55
Japanese and southern Chinese lack the pure C3 (M217) marker that is found in Koreans, Buryats, Tungusic peoples and northeast Han.

Japanese don't have the P31 marker found in Koreans and Tungusic people.

The D marker found in Japanese links them with Tibetans.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 14-Nov-2008 at 07:59
http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html - http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html
Korean DNA sequence is made up of:
40.6% Korean
21.9% Chinese
1.6% Ainu
17.4% Okinawan
18.5% Unidentified

Japanese DNA sequence is made up of:
4.8% Japanese
24.2% Korean
25.8% Chinese
8.1% Ainu
16.1% Okinawan
21% Unidentified

Chinese DNA sequence is made up of:
60.6% Chinese
1.5% Japanese
10.6% Korean
1.5% Ainu
10.6% Okinawan
15.2% Unidentified

This research isn't fake, it was done using SNP (Single nucleotide polymorphism). Japanese are probably the least homogenous, genetically. makes sense because its an isolated group of islands.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2008 at 07:04
Evidence from Y-markers
According to Xue et al: Male demography of east Asia: Contrast in expansion times

Japanese have 23% haplogroup O3a5, which is a Chinese specific haplogroup

While, for Koreans (counting both north and south), the frequency is only 18% and for Tungusics, it is around 10-20%.

Evidence from mtdna-markers
Here is a genetic study in 2005, done by NHA (Japanese genetics association)

cfs8.blog.daum.net/attach/15/blog/2008/10/20/03/42/48fb7f93142fd&filename=japan2.pdf

Biggest contributor to DNA sequence is in bold (genetic specificity taken into account)

Korean DNA sequence is made up of:
40.6% Korean
21.9% Chinese
1.6% Ainu
17.4% Okinawan
18.5% Unidentified

Japanese DNA sequence is made up of:
4.8% Japanese
24.2% Korean
25.8% Chinese
8.1% Ainu
16.1% Okinawan
21% Unidentified

Chinese DNA sequence is made up of:
60.6% Chinese
1.5% Japanese
10.6% Korean
1.5% Ainu
10.6% Okinawan
15.2% Unidentified

Evidence from DNA base markers (autosomal DNA)

In recent years, more archaeological and genetic evidence have been found in both eastern China and western Japan to lend credibility to this argument. Between 1996 and 1999, a team led by Satoshi Yamaguchi, a researcher at Japan's National Science Museum, compared Yayoi remains found in Japan's Yamaguchi and Fukuoka prefectures with those from early Han Dynasty (202 BC-8) in China's coastal Jiangsu province, and found many similarities between the skulls and limbs of Yayoi people and the Jiangsu remains.[8] Two Jiangsu skulls showed spots where the front teeth had been pulled, a practice common in Japan in the Yayoi and preceding Jōmon period. The genetic samples from three of the 36 Jiangsu skeletons also matched part of the DNA base arrangements of samples from the Yayoi remains.


I think it's more important analyzing specificity of lineages when determining the origins of modern ethnic groups. Just saying one sample of this ethnic group as this percentage of this haplogroup does not say anything about the source of the ancestors.


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 21-Feb-2009 at 22:52
 
There is only " cultural affinity " between Chinese & Koreans or Chinese & Japanese or Koreans & Japanese.Feeling of kinship ( like that of Europe's Germanic peoples ) never existed past & present within general population of China Korea Japan.I have put some thoughts into this since last year,I concluded because of dominate group is indeed of different Mongoloid stock despite there is roughly 25%-30% shared origin between Chinese & Koreans or 10% for Japanese & Torai-jins ( Koreans & Chinese immigrant stock ).
 
NO ... they were never ( never have been ) cousins other than artificially related by the generic term NE Asians.
 
Clearly,people in general do know who they are and who they're related to.We not needing to tell that to English Germans Scandinavians,right.
 
 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2009 at 12:12
 
 
There have been unsubstantiated rumours about Japan's Yamato Royal House being of " Korean origin ".I found sources refuted such dubious claim.
 
 
Gina Barnes of the University of Durham in Great Britain admits the possibility while citing the lack of evidence:

“There is no direct historical evidence of a (Japanese) emperor born on the Korean Peninsula. There is considerable evidence of contact with peninsular kings and elites. But given other monarchical systems in which ‘stranger kings’ may be incorporated, such as the British Hanover line, which has produced the current queen, it’s not an impossible thought that the Yamato rulership incorporated foreign allies.”
 
 
Walter Edwards of Tenri University in Nara Prefecture downplays the Korean connection:

“Would we expect to find that the occupants of the earliest large tombs, the third-century figures who originally carved out the Yamato polity, to have been Korean aristocrats who came over and wrested power from indigenous leaders, helping raise a backward nation up to the level of early statehood? That is what is all too often implied by whisperings of ‘Korean bones’. That view I reject. The emergence of the ancient Yamato polity was an indigenous phenomenon.”

 
http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/does-the-emperor-wear-korean-genes/ - http://ampontan.wordpress.com/2007/09/19/does-the-emperor-wear-korean-genes/
 
 
A 10th generation " zainich " Baekje royal descedant married into the Yamato Royal House,her " yamatoized " full name was 高野新笠.Thus,she was the birth mother of Emperor Kammu ( 桓武天皇 reigned 781-806 ).However,倭族 Wa-jin patrilineal lineage remained intact.

* また桓武天皇の生母が和氏後裔の高野新笠であり、百済氏は平安初期の朝廷に優遇される。
 
http://www.myj7000.jp-biz.net/clan/03/03013.htm#003 - http://www.myj7000.jp-biz.net/clan/03/03013.htm#003
 
 
 


Posted By: pebbles
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2009 at 06:52
 
Japanese generally regard themselves having 50% Jomon-jin ( 縄文 ) & 50% Yayoi-jin ( 弥生 ) ancestries.
 
I frequent Japanese-language social websites in Japan,so get to read personal thoughts and opinions on how they view Japan & themselves as Japanese.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: SNK_1408
Date Posted: 04-Oct-2009 at 21:18
Another interesting topic. But we all know Japanese are just another East Asian.
Nothing new.

Study from http://www.kumanolife.com/History/dna.html
is known to be biased and unscientific.
Please note there is no specific genetic markers for Chinese, Japanese or Koreans.

The rules of thumb is Japanese are closely related to these with East Asian group. Noticeably Koreans. In terms of linguistically and genetically, two people does resemble each other.

Compare the y-DNA and  mt-DNA of Korean people with Japanese.
Koreans
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=2615218&tool=pmcentrez

Japanese
http://www.jref.com/culture/origins_japanese_people.shtml

You will be surprise to see mt-DNA from both Japanese and Koreans share common grounds.
I would say, Koreans really don't have blood relation with Japanese, it's more Japanese have blood relation with Koreans due to early migration pattern.



Posted By: sure
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2009 at 22:32
In the 3 East Asian nationals ,
 
Surely there are many Japanese who look like Korean or Chinese but at the same time ,
many of them have very far distinguished looking compared to Koreans and Chinese.
 
Gnerally , Koreans and Continental Chinese especially the ones in North  look rather similiar than Japanese to my eyes.
 
 
 
 


Posted By: SNK_1408
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2009 at 22:42
Originally posted by sure

In the 3 East Asian nationals ,
 Koreans and Continental Chinese especially the ones in North  look rather similiar than Japanese to my eyes.


Yup, check the Y-DNA profile of Korean people, they match up perfectly well with these NE Chinese specially Manchus.

Check mt-DNA of Korean people, match perfectly well with Japanese people, specially these from Kyushu and main island of Japan, often called Hondo Japanese.


Posted By: lele0124
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2010 at 17:38

あ、い、う、え、お is usually あ、い、う、い、う
thus かぜ becomes かじ、 こめ becomes くみ、そば becomes すば

い in JPN adjectives = さん
あまい=あまさん、あつい=あちさん、おもしろい=うむさん、やすい=やっさん、など
what is this?
 
 
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Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 07-Apr-2010 at 05:05
Originally posted by keerisahaizu

The Austronesian connection
The Indonesians, Malaysians and Philipinos originated from Southern China. They migrated on boats via Taiwan and displaced the original inhabitants that might have been related to Dravidians of Southern India. We will see below that it is possible that some of these early Austronesians may have been the ancestors of the Ice Age settlers of Japan.

From a linguistic point of view, Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia and Japanese language share only a few similarities, but nonetheless striking ones. Apart from the very similar pronunciation in both languages, there is the same hierarchical differences in personal pronouns. For example "you" is either anda or kamu with the same meaning and usage as anata and kimi in Japanese. Likewise, the Japanese verb suki ("to like") translates suka in Bahasa. Such similarities are probably more than mere coincidences, and may reveal a common origin. Furthermore, in both languages the plural can be formed by simply doubling the word. For instance, in Japanese hito means "person", while hitobito means "people". Likewise ware means "I" or "you", whereas wareware means "we". Doubling of words in Japanese is so common that there is a special character used only to mean the word is doubled (々) in written Japanese. In Bahasa, this way of forming the plural is almost systematical (person is orang, while people is orang-orang). Expressions like ittekimasu, itteirashai, tadaima and okaeri, used to greet someone who leaves or enter a place, and which have no equivalent in Indo-European languages, have exact equivalents in Indonesian (selamat jalan, selamat tinggal...).

Did you notice that the Japanese anata and the Malay anda is also very close to the Arabic anta?
 
The Malay suka is derived, I believe, from the Sanskrit sukkha (happy, happiness). But its closeness to the Japanese suki is also very intriguing.
 
Other similar cases are the Malay sayur (vegetable) and the Japanese yasai (with reversed order of syllable), the Malay kasut (shoes) and the Japanese kutsu.
 
The Malay kah at the end of a question is also intriguingly close to the Japanese ka of similar usage.


-------------
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2010 at 10:02
It is intersting to read it: http://www2.plala.or.jp/wani-san/prophecy2.htm - http://www2.plala.or.jp/wani-san/prophecy2.htm
 
♣Interestingly, in the ancient Tango region (including Ayabe and Kameoka) was a polity that preceded the rule of Japan's first emperor, Emperor Jimmu, around 660 B.C. Some of the inhabitants in the northern Kyoto area are believed to have come from Sumer. Since Kamu-susa-no-wo visits this region from His residence in ancient Persia, this particular portion of the Reikai Monogatari may shed light on the mysteries regarding the Sumerians and Japanese.
No-wo as in Susa-no-wo (a partial manifestation of Kamu-susa-no-wo) can also mean "king of." With this, some scholars infer that Susa-no-wo may have been the "king of Susa" in ancient Persia.


-------------


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2010 at 08:33
Though I am not a believer in the Summerian connection, there was another documented non asiatic ethnic group in Japan known as Emeishi. The Emeishi were australoids and their modern relatives inludes the Ainu.  Emieishi tribal groups were gradually pushed into remote areas and were then absorbed by Asiatic Japanese in the early middle ages.  
 
The last stronghold of the Emeishi was north east Honshu. It is said that some modern Japanese from this area have vaguely australoid physical features.  In any case, after the emeishi were absorbed, the Ainu migrated into Japan from the Sakahalin Islands.


Posted By: Shield-of-Dardania
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 02:38
Actually, Crypt, Cyr's Sumerian story may not have been that far fetched.
 
http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20100228/808/tnl-south-korean-delegation-pays-homage.html - http://in.news.yahoo.com/139/20100228/808/tnl-south-korean-delegation-pays-homage.html
 
About two thousand years ago (48 AD), a 16-year-old Indian princess from Ayodhya sailed to the Kaya kingdom which is now known as Kimhae city in Korea and married the ruler of the place, King Kim Suro, founder of the ancient Korean kingdom of Karak. Her Koreanised name was Heo Hwang-Ok.
 
"Heo Hwang-Ok, she is our traditional girl. In 48 CE, she married one of our Kings, King Suro. She was one of his wives, and she came to Korea from India," said Kim Jung Kil, former Minister of Justice, Korea.

According to the legend, Heo's parents had dreamt of King Suro that he had not yet found a Queen. So her parents told her to go to the King, and marry him.

She was the first queen of Geumgwan Gaya, and is considered an ancestor by several Korean lineages. It is believed that Queen Heo's descendants today number more than six-million, including the former South Korean President - Kim Dae Jung.

A memorial was built in 2001 in Faizalabad, to pay homage to the ancient Queen. Since then every year Queen Heo's descendants come to India from Korea to pay homage to their royal ancestor.
 
A 50-member South Korean delegation recently (2007) visited the monument dedicated to Queen Heo Hwang-Ok, their royal ancestor and paid homage to her in Faizalabad, Uttar Pradesh, India.

"Since I was excited, I went for Busan Asian Games in Korea I came to know that an Indian princess was married to a King of Korea. I went to Gimhae and I was welcomed heartily there. I prayed at King's and Queen's tomb," said Brigadier N. B. Singh, Director General, Sports Council and Advisor for Commonwealth Games at Edinburgh.

Archaeologists discovered a stone with two fish kissing each other, a symbol of the ancient Gaya kingdom in Korea, that is unique to the Mishra royal family in Ayodhya.

The Koreans regard the Mishra family as the descendants/relatives of Hwang-Ok because this family, like the Kaya/Gaya royal family of Korea, has two fishes as the insignia. (ANI)

The way I see it, if an Indian princess could go to Korea in 48 AD, so could some Sumerians have gone to Japan earlier. If Heo Kwang-Ok's descendants could surpass 6 million within 2 thousand years, you could imagine the number of descendants a group of, say, 50 Sumerians, would have produced in Japan in, what, say 4000 years ...


-------------
History makes everything. Everything is history in the making.


Posted By: Cryptic
Date Posted: 28-Apr-2010 at 09:57
Originally posted by Shield-of-Dardania

you could imagine the number of descendants a group of, say, 50 Sumerians, would have produced in Japan in, what, say 4000 years ...
I see your point. 50 individuals or so is entirely feasible. 


Posted By: ETL_Guy
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2011 at 12:47
Greetings,

I am posting this here because I think it is relevant to discussion on this topic.  My goal isn't to prove or disprove anything related to true origins of Japanese, and I will identify several flaws in the fundamentals that would rule this info out as hard evidence of one origin vs. another.  However, I think the results are interesting in the context of discussion of Japanese origins on this thread.

I am of Japanese and mixed European maternal ancestry, born in the USA.  My maternal grandmother is from Osaka.  My maternal grandfather, from what I can tell through traditional genealogy, is primarily of north European ancestry, with most ancestors arriving from Germany, Prussia, Norway, and England in the 1800's.  My mtDNA is Haplogroup D, which is common among multiple east Asian nationalities.  I do not have a D sub-group identified at this time.

I am of mixed European paternal ancestry, with a few traditional genealogical references to what may have been full or mixed Cherokee lineage.  I have no hard evidence (DNA, pictures, etc.) for Native American ancestry.  My Y-DNA is Haplogroup G and arrived in North America in the 1600's from England.  It is in minority there among R1a,R1b,etc. and exactly how it arrived in England is unknown.  G is more common among populations in the Mediterranian and Caucasus regions, and also exists in some fairly large numbers in Central Asia among the Magyars (likely ancestors of Huns) and other groups like Uighurs.  It also exists in Afghanistan, Pakistan, and to a lesser degree India.  All of this is background on my paternal lineage, not relevant to origins of Japanese, but relevant to the autosomal DNA analysis results below, which should be based on both paternal and maternal genetic matches.

The provider for the autosomal DNA results below is a private company DNA Tribes.  I have some skepticism about the accuracy of their methods.  Their autosomal matching algorithms and database are proprietary.  The science of autosomal matching for deep ancestry is criticized as innaccurate.  However, I can say that I have a completely anglo-American name, and answered no questionaire to indicate I had any Asian heritage, so all Asian matches they have provided were not biased by outside information.

The aspect of these results that surprised me the most were the number and strength of Indian and Australian Aboriginal matches that I had.  I fully expected to have many European matches, as well as a number of east and central Asian matches.  The other thing that surprised me was that despite Japanese being my single most identifiable ethnicity at 25%, there were very few hits on Japanese groups, and those hits were weak, none in the top 100.  This may be due to a simple lack of comprehensive Japanese reference samples in the DNA Tribes database.

See the list below.  The label is obviously the nationality or ethnicity being compared to, the (0.nn) is the percentage of match compared to the entire reference population for that group, and the nnn.nn is a multiplier representing the number of times more likely I am to be that nationality, compared to a reference population for the entire world population.  I have included only my top 100 matches.

1 Salar (Qinghai, China) (0.62) 370.84
2 Kirgiz (Xinjiang, Chinese Turkestan) (0.3) 208.96
3 Oman (0.39) 206.58
4 Indian (Singapore) (0.51) 197.29
5 Turkey (0.28) 190.69
6 Evenki (Inner Mongolia, China) (0.34) 183.25
7 Bonan (Gansu, China) (0.4) 175.48
8 Indian (United Arab Emirates) (0.45) 174.53
9 Lazio, Italy (0.2) 162.10
10 Kamma Chaudhary (Andhra Pradesh, India) (0.43) 153.21
11 Uzbek (Xinjiang, Chinese Turkestan) (0.37) 143.12
12 Israel (0.22) 142.61
13 Tomsk, Russia (0.26) 135.26
14 South Asian (United Kingdom) (0.33) 132.52
15 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (South Australia) (0.31) 125.98
16 Costa Rica (0.23) 122.53
17 Spain (0.14) 121.39
18 Italy (0.2) 112.89
19 East Indian (Canada) (0.25) 111.88
20 Han (Xian, Shaanxi, China) (0.16) 110.41
21 Han (Henan, China) (0.15) 107.49
22 Han (Qinghai, China) (0.19) 104.64
23 Indian (Dubai, UAE) (0.4) 102.81
24 Mestizo (Argentina) (0.16) 100.55
25 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Riverine Region, Australia) (0.23) 99.30
26 Southeast Asian (New Zealand) (0.36) 97.12
27 Kuwait (0.11) 94.29
28 Puerto Rican (Springfield, Massachusetts, U.S.A.) (0.17) 92.06
29 Greece (0.14) 91.84
30 Turkey (0.15) 90.14
31 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Western Australia) (0.25) 89.98
32 Sergipe, Brazil (0.14) 88.96
33 Calabria, Italy (0.16) 87.31
34 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Queensland, Australia) (0.32) 86.45
35 Italy (0.11) 83.20
36 Kurdish (Northern Iraq) (0.15) 82.77
37 Tu (Qinghai China) (0.4) 81.87
38 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Northeast Australia) (0.55) 80.73
39 Istanbul, Turkey (0.16) 80.43
40 Oman (0.28) 79.74
41 Caucasian (Tasmania, Australia) (0.12) 78.48
42 Schleswig-Holstein, Germany (0.08) 78.30
43 Beijing, China (0.13) 78.10
44 Pakistan (0.29) 74.03
45 Spain (0.08) 71.68
46 Caucasian (New South Wales, Australia) (0.12) 70.32
47 Turkey (0.16) 70.07
48 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (New South Wales, Australia) (0.16) 69.92
49 Hungary (0.11) 69.78
50 Han (Shaanxi, China) (0.15) 69.04
51 Flemish (Belgium) (0.09) 68.93
52 Arab (Israel) (0.12) 66.91
53 Nordrhein-Westfalen, Germany (0.09) 65.91
54 Afghanistan (0.25) 65.74
55 Basque (Basque Country, Spain) (0.08) 65.44
56 Turkey (0.15) 64.96
57 European-Aboriginal (mixed) (Northern Territory, Australia) (0.37) 64.70
58 Caucasian (Capital Territory, Australia) (0.11) 64.66
59 Northwest Spain (0.09) 64.56
60 Bedouin (Negev, Israel) (0.18) 64.23
61 Northern Greece (0.11) 63.90
62 Flemish (0.1) 63.87
63 Hungary (0.11) 63.75
64 Genoa, Italy (0.19) 62.66
65 Dongxiang (Qinghai, China) (0.26) 62.61
66 Central and Southern Iraq (0.14) 62.29
67 Aboriginal (Tiwi Islands, Australia) (0.21) 61.84
68 Xibe (Xinjiang, Chinese Turkestan) (0.15) 60.99
69 Tu (Northwest China) (0.24) 60.24
70 Nepal (0.25) 60.09
71 Buddhist (Ladakh, India) (0.34) 57.56
72 Austria (0.08) 57.18
73 Brac, Croatia (0.1) 57.07
74 Csango (Romania) (0.06) 57.04
75 Turkey (0.13) 56.67
76 Gujarat, India (0.31) 56.49
77 Bogota, Colombia (0.17) 56.28
78 Greece (0.1) 56.24
79 Abov-Gemer, Eastern Slovakia (0.06) 55.70
80 Northern Portugal (0.06) 55.67
81 Han (North China) (0.1) 55.14
82 United Kingdom (0.08) 55.11
83 Greece (0.1) 54.83
84 Caucasian (U.S.A.) (0.09) 54.80
85 Toulouse, France (0.07) 54.73
86 Indian (Malaysia) (0.26) 53.97
87 Santa Fe, Argentina (0.15) 53.69
88 United Kingdom (0.1) 52.80
89 Han (Beijing, China) (0.08) 51.45
90 Buenos Aires, Argentina (0.13) 50.94
91 Central Portugal (0.07) 50.50
92 Northern Portugal (0.07) 50.36
93 London, England (0.09) 50.32
94 Greece (0.14) 49.41
95 Mainland Croatia (0.09) 49.41
96 Serbia (0.08) 49.41
97 Northern Pakistan (0.22) 49.32
98 Iban (Sarawak, Malaysia) (0.07) 48.66
99 Belem, Brazil (0.14) 48.62
100 Mendoza, Argentina (0.14) 47.97


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2011 at 07:45
I think my post is worthy of reviving this discussion Wink

I am Uzbek, come from Central Asia and speak its languages.

I will simply state the things I found out (and keep finding) about similarities between Japanese language and Central Asian languages:

Japanese:                                                               Central Asian:
"Kuro" - Black                                                         "Kora/Qora" - Black (Uzbek)
"Shiro" - White                                                        "Shir" - Milk (Tajik)
"sui/mizu" - Water                                                   "Suv" - Water (Uzbek)
"Hon" - A book                                                        "Hon!" - Read! (Tajik)
"Onna" - A woman                                                   "Ona" - Mother (Uzbek)
"Otou-sama" - Father                                               "Ota" - Father (Uzbek)
"Chorou" - An elder                                                  "Chol" - An old man (Uzbek)  
"Uchuu" - universe, space                                         "Uch, uchuvchi!" - Fly, pilot! (Uzbek)
"Sono toori" - That's correct.                                     "Shu to'g'ri" - That's correct.
"Damaru!" - Be silent!                                              "Dam!" - Be quiet/silent! (Uzbek)             
"Teppeki no" - impregnable                                      "Tepalik" - A hill, high ground (Uzbek)
"-dono" - honorifics for lords/masters                        "Dono" - A wise one (Uzbek)
 

....and many many more, just can't remember all right now


Posted By: jafflen
Date Posted: 09-Nov-2011 at 07:22
in spite of what the Japanese may think of themselves, they do not have extraterrestrial origins, and are indeed related to several peoples in Asia. It is now believed that the modern Japanese descend mostly from the interbreeding of the Jomon Era people (15,000-500 BCE), composed of the above Ice Age settlers, and a later arrival from China and/or Korea. Around 500 BCE, the Yayoi people crossed the see from Korea to Kyushu, bringing with them a brand new culture, based on wet rice cultivation and horses.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Jun-2012 at 17:44
I m from Okinawa and I have to agree with this.
 
Ryukyuan language and Japanese, they share the similarities.
 
Shibai=Shonben
Achisan=Atsui a lot of consonants are the same.
 
Physically,
 
Non-Japanese people tell me that I dont look Japanese.(I usually get Native Taiwanese,HKnese, Thai, or Filipino) thats fine to me.
 
 What annoys me the most being Okinawan is that when I m in Tokyo or abroad,
 
Japanese ppl who believe in one race bullshit, they ask me "are you sure you are Japanese?""Are you mixed?""Where you born in abroad?""You have a foreign accent". the worst one was "Your Japanese is good" It makes me wonder if I m pure Japanese.
 
If you believe in one nation, one language, and one shit, they shouldnt be judgemental and they should really learn whats in their nation before going abroad.


Posted By: vaffangool
Date Posted: 07-Dec-2014 at 21:59
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by pebbles

....tell it to hypernationalist Korean wackos and non-NE Asian surrogates pushing their...non-Chinese origin of Japanese & Korean agenda....
...
in reality most people fall outside these stereotypes....frankly I have no idea where your "slender built"/"big-bone bulky physical built" idea comes from.

China, duh.  ~ Wink ~  Although I don't see why  http://www.allempires.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=30081 - pebbles  should be so sensitive about being excluded.

It's just a long-overdue acknowledgement of ethnic affinity—not some sort of incipient strategic conspiracy.


Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2014 at 00:32
Welcome aboard vaffangool.Smile


Posted By: vaffangool
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2014 at 00:34
Originally posted by

Japanese have 23% haplogroup O3a5, which is a Chinese specific haplogroup

Haplogroup O3 occurs at high frequencies among the peoples of northeast- and southeast Asia, comprising 50% or more of the total Y-chromosome variation among Sinitic-, Tibeto-Burman, and Hmong-Mien speaking populations.

Moreover, the  http://cfs8.blog.daum.net/attach/15/blog/2008/10/20/03/42/48fb7f93142fd&filename=japan2.pdf - NHA article  you cite [Am. J. Hum. Genet. 59:579-590, 1996does not support your seemingly Sinocentric Weltanschauung:

Among 14 sequence types shared between two populations, 
  • 5 were found in common between the Koreans and mainland Japanese;
  • 3 between the mainland Japanese and Ainu;
  • 2 between the Chinese and Koreans;
  • 1 between the Chinese and Ainu;
  • 1 between the Koreans and Ryukyuans;
  • 1 between the Korean and Ainu; and 
  • 1 between the mainland Japanese and Ryukyuans. 
  • 0 between the Chinese and the mainland Japanese
Among the 4 sequence types shared among three populations,
  • 2 were shared among the Koreans, mainland Japanese, and Ryukyuans;
  • 1 among the Chinese, Koreans, and Ainu; and
  • 1 among the Koreans, mainland Japanese and Ainu.
  • 0 among any combination including both Chinese and mainland Japanese.
The non-rigorous comparison misrepresented in your post involves clusters often shared between four- or even all five of the populations--clusters iwhich "lineages from the five Asian populations were completely intermingled in the phylogenetic tree." They were assigned a casual "specificity" (quotation marks theirs) on the basis of the population from which the maximum number of individuals was derived. With the disclaimer that "this assignment of specificity seems to be somewhat arbitrary," they explain the unscientific exercise as one they hoped might be broadly "useful for understanding the relationships of mtDNA sequences among very closely related human populations."


Posted By: vaffangool
Date Posted: 08-Dec-2014 at 00:37
Originally posted by medenaywe

Welcome aboard vaffangool.Smile 
Thank you. I foresee lost hours and strained eyesight.



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