Indo-European, Yenisseian, Altaic
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24610
Printed Date: 29-Apr-2024 at 13:46
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Topic: Indo-European, Yenisseian, Altaic
Posted By: gok_toruk
Subject: Indo-European, Yenisseian, Altaic
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:19
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I'm not here to defend on Nostratic Theory's side. I've only been trying to compare some primary words in these three language families lately. I hope this won't be one of those perviously marooned topics about linguistics. I've started with numbers. One thing I've noticed in these 3 language families is that: as a model, almost all changes in consonants are only in the beginning position, and are only among these 5 cases (which all have close origins): “n” and “p” are sometimes added to the middle of the words (why?). ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Replies:
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:20
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Proto – Altaic: biuri Meaning: one Mongolian: büri (each one) Turkic: bir/pir, biri (Also “pitew/pitöw”, “unit; one”in Turkmen) Middle Korean: piris (at first, start) Old Japanese: pjito Proto Indo-European: pery- English: first (it points to “pirst” where “st” is a suffix) German: erste (German has lost “p/b” in the beginning of the word) Notes: Two normal changes: 1- Shifts between consonants with the same origins (in this case, “r” with “d/t”). 2- Loss of “p/b” in the beginning position. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:28
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Proto – Altaic: pioke Meaning: pair, couple Mongolian: (h)ekire Turkic: iki, eki Sari Yughur: shiki Shor: iygi Middle Korean: pyky- (next, following) Old Japanese: p(w)oka (other) English: second (just like Sari Yughur, the starting “p” has changed to “s”; “nd” is just an suffix here) Notes: Turkic and Mongolian both has lost the Altaic “p” in the beginning; but Sari Yughur reveals this by preserving the consonant (here, with “sh” which is of the same origin). Shifts between “p” and “s/sh” (in Indo-European and Altaic correspondence) can be found also in other words like Turkic “sik-mek” and German “fick-en” (sorry for impoliteness): both have the same meanings; “mek” in the Turkic word as well as “en” in the German word are only suffixes. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:29
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Proto – Altaic: toy- Meaning: four Mongolian: dör-ben Turkic: tör-t, dör-t Karachay: tyort Proto Japanese: dy-, do- Proto - Yenisseian: siy- Kottish: shey-che Arin: shay-a Proto Indo-European: ke-twor- Old Indian: turiya (consisting of four parts) Avestan: tuirya Armenian: chor-s Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:30
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Proto – Altaic: paynga Meaning: five Proto-Ainu: as-ki Ainu: ashikne Turkic: besh/bes Proto – Yenisseian: Ket: qak, qang Yugh: xak, xayeng Proto Indo-European: penke, penkwe Persian: panj Albanian: pese Notes: Lack of “n’ in Turkic “besh” is just like the case in: Latin “et” (“and”) and German “und” or Turkic “bat”/”bit” and Japanese “pinti”. Ainu hast lost the initial “p/b”. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:32
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Proto – Yenisseian: saxV (saxa, saxe, saxi, saxo, saxu)/paxV (paxa, paxe, paxo, paxo, paxu) Meaning: six Proto Indo-European: swek's, sek's Old Indian: sat, sas- Tocharian: sak Baltic: shesh Notes: What about Turkic “sekyz” which means “eight”? The Proto-Altaic root for this word is “cha-/sha-” or “che-/she-”. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:44
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Proto – Altaic: ngad Meaning: seven Proto-Ainu: adeh-dan (“dan” is a suffix) Turkic: yeti Sari Yughur: Ye-x-ti Yakut: Setti Fu-yü Girgis: chiti Karagas: tedy Dolgan: hety Proto Indo-European: se-p-t Old Greek: hepta Old Indian: sapta Avestan: hapta Slavic: sedm Notes: Again shift between 5 consonants in the initial position. There’s a “p” in the middle of the Indo-European word which Altaic lacks it. This is like Proto–Altaic “cha/sha” or “che/she” which means “eight”. Turkic has changed the initial “sh” to “s” and added the suffix “kür”: Proto – Turkic form is “se-kür” while Tungus-Manchu has added a “p” to the middle of the word to make “cha-p-kun”. Sari Yughur in this case, has added “x” to the middle of the word. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:48
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Proto-Indo-European: okto Meaning: eight Old Greek: okto, ogdo(wo)1 Tocharian: okt German: acht Of Turkic Languages: Yakut: agys Dolgan: agys Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 11:06
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Turkic: on Meaning: ten Ainu: wan Proto–Japanese: təwə Old Japanese: towo Proto – Yenisseian: 1- tu- (tu-n) 2- tuk Kottish: ton-tuku Proto Indo-European: dek'm- (ten; hundred) Old Greek: deka Notes: Indo-European final “m” has turned into “n” or “ng” in Proto-Yenisseian. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 11:17
gok_toruk, it is good that you also know Persian langauge.
 English First relates to Avestan fraeshta ( - Avestan Dictionary ) and Middle Persin Frast which however means "first" too but originally means "foremost". ------------- 
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 11:28
The Proto Germanic form is 'furisto', which is an adjective, a superlative of 'fur' and means 'foremost'. The 'f' is the result of Grimm's law, in this case it's PIE p => PGmc f. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 12:01
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There is also another word for "first" in Persian langauges, this word is Nekhost which originaly means "nearest". (Compare with English Next) -------------
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 12:38
This one is interesting, English word "Second" comes from Latin "Sequi" which means "follow", "s" is changed to "h" in the Iranian languages, so in Avestan "Hak" mean "follow", as you know "Hakhaman" (Achaemenian/Achaemenes, the most famous Persian dynasty) means "faithful follower", comapre with English "henchman" -------------
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 12:45
| This one wouldn't work. Henchman comes from hengest+man, and hengest meant 'stallion'. O.Fris. hengst, Du. hengest, Ger. Hengst "stallion", from PGmc khangistas. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 13:45
This is either a fake etymology or "hengest" originally meant "follow" (a horse can be a good follower), anyway it is obvious that English "Hence" relates to Latin origin words "Sequence" & "Consequence". -------------
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 13:48
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Interesting studies gok toruk... So do you suggest that words like those you mentioned belong to the a very early proto language stretching back before the creation of IE, Altaic etc language groups? -------------  
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 14:29
Yours is correct yeah?? So what is your source?? No it is correct. 'hengest' meant stallion. 1360, hengestman "high-ranking servant," originally "groom," from man + O.E. hengest "horse, stallion, gelding," from P.Gmc. *khangistas (cf. O.Fris. hengst, Du. hengest, Ger. Hengst "stallion"), probably lit. "best at springing," from PIE *kenku- (cf. Gk. kekiein "to gush forth;" Lith. sokti "to jump, dance;" Breton kazek "a mare," lit. "that which belongs to a stallion"). Became obsolete, but retained in Scottish as "personal attendant of a Highland chief," in which sense Scott revived it in literary Eng. in 1810. Sense of "obedient or unscrupulous follower" is first recorded 1839, probably based on a misunderstanding of the word as used by Scott. As for 'hence'. This is - no offence - a stupid remark. 'hence' relates to 'thence' and 'whence' and is of Germanic origin. And here is sequence: 1387, "hymn sung after the Hallelujah and before the Gospel," from O.Fr. sequence "answering verses" (13c.), from M.L. sequentia "a following, a succession," from L. sequentem (nom. sequens), prp. of sequi "to follow" (see sequel). In Church use, a partial loan-translation of Gk. akolouthia, from akolouthos "following." General sense of "succession," also "a sequence at cards," appeared 1575. Cyrus you can get your nationalist pride out of your system in 'Saxon and Scythian' thread. It won't work well with Nostratic theory. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 14:31
Well, it is very probable and it is suggested by linguists too. It definitely makes sence, but...we know too little to work out. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 14:54
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It's more a question that we know so little, we can generate a whole lot of widely different but equally valid versions. ------------- |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 16:05
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Hello Everybody. Sorry for this a little bit too late reply. I don't know about "fraeshta" Cyrus. That's something new to me, thanks. Also, it's interesting to see Latin "Sequi" means "follow"; Korean "pyky" means "following" too. Thanks Slayerpltsko to point out the exact root ("fur" and means 'foremost'). One thing I'll say for these things is that we shall not expect the exact meaning in different langauges, but rather "almost-the-same" meanings: "Fur" meaning "foremost" is still like Korean "piri" which means "start". Even in a single language family like Altaic, for instance, despite the single root "biuri", you see it means "one" in Turkic, "each one" in Mongolian and "start" in Korean. Huh? ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 16:17
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You know Flipper, I've always wondered why some Altaic and Indo-European words seemed to share the same root (like these numbers). At first, I only compared Altaic with Indo-European; but then I thought languages (geographically) between these two language groups, such as Yenisseian might have some similar traits too. It's suggested in Linguistics, as Slayertplsko also mentioned. But we need more proof. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 16:19
| Yes, that's interesting. Anyway, it was 'furisto' meaning 'foremost', maybe I didn't write it clearly enough, sorry about that. So 'fur' would mean something like 'fore'. It doesn't change much of course. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 16:26
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I can give you the Arabic numerals: 1 - wahed 2 - ithnan 3 - thalaatha 4 - arbaa 5 - khamsa 6 - setta 7 - sabaa 8 - tessa 9 - thamanya 10 - ashra This is how I remember them at least...I'm right back with more language families. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 16:33
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Hungarian: 1 - egy 2 - kettö 3 - három 4 - négy 5 - öt 6 - hat 7 - hét 8 - nyolc 9 - kilenc 10 - tíz |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 17:33
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Slayertplsko, you have absolutely nothing to say, except to copy and paste from a dictionary! I wished you bother yourself to think a little before doing it, if "henchman" means "follower" in English then this word certainly relate other similar Indo-European words which mean the same, maybe you believe it is not an Indo-European word?! -------------
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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 17:43
Slayer is correct. I'm sure the linguists who put English dictionaries together for a living understand the origin quite well. From dictionary.com:
Shows four words from M.English that have it's origin from O.English, and Slayer mentions above it can be traced from Old Frisian which many OE words came from. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
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mənPosted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 18:09
No, you're wrong buddy. I do think, but the difference is that you're playing very loose with words here. (and contradict yourself in other threads  )henchman also means follower...true...but it's you who doesn't think here - it doesn't necessarily mean that it comes from Persian!!! (and now it's Persian - interesting!...it used to be Scythian for instance) And since I DO think, it occurred to me that the probability that it be so well-preserved since the times of PIE (let alone Persian) is extremely low. Therefore a thinking person asks a question: is it possible that it comes from Persian and/or is related to that word in Persian?? The answer is, almost no possibility. And then a thinking person checks the etymology and discovers 'stallion+man' - and then I tried to trace it back as far as possible. And now - whence does the Persian word come from??? A non-thinking person will, however, link the Persian and English word immediately. I've got a strange feeling this has something to do with your statement that Old Saxon and Persian use 'an' suffix for infinitive...this is a true, albeit a very silly remark...if you ever studied at least ONE other Germanic language, you wouldn't have said that. It is one of your statements proving you be incapable of the 'correct thinking' when it comes to Germanic languages. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 19:04
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Back to the topic: Proto – Altaic: apa ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 19:05
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Proto – Altaic: ena Meaning: mother; elder sister Turkic: ana, ene Tungus-Manchu: eni Middle Korean: yni Proto-Yenisseian: ama Ket: am Kottish: ama Proto Indo-European: an- (grandmother) Hittite: hanna-s Armenian: han Old Greek: anon Baltic: an-ia Germanic: an-en- Latin: anus Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 19:05
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Proto – Altaic: bachV (bacha, bache, bachi, bacho, bachu) Meaning: sister Turkic: bacha Mongolian: bacha-ghan Manchu: basha (“wife's younger sister”) Proto-Yenisseian: bis Ket: bis-ep Kottish: popecha Pumpokol: bich Proto Indo-European: pas- (relative) Old Greek: paos Germanic: faz-o Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 19:06
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Proto – Altaic: tayV (taya, taye, tayi, tayo, tayu) Meaning: elder in-law, elder relative Turkic: dayi Tungus-Manchu: da- Proto-Japanese: dia, dai Proto Indo-European: daiw-er- (husband’s brother) Old Greek: daer Baltic: deiwe-, dewier-ia Armenian: taigr Germanic: taikr-a- Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Al Jassas
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 19:06
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8 - tessa 9 - thamanya you got it in reverse man Al-Jassas
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 19:07
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Proto-Altaic: ete Meaning: father Turkic: ata, ete Mongolian: echige Tungus-Manchu: (x)eti- Middle Korean: ata (man) Old Japanese: titi, wo-di Proto-Yenisseian: patV (pata, pate, pati, pato, patu) Meaning: father-in-law Kottish: pateg Arin: apati Proto Indo-European: pa-t-er- (father) Old Indian & Avestan: pitar Old Greek: pater, patros Germanic: fader Celtic: athir Notes: All Altaic languges, except Old Japanese, has lost "p" at the beginning of the word. old Japanese has preserved its light form "w". Anyhow, one might argue that, here, "w" has been added on its own (and not as the light form of "p"), just like adding "h" to the beginning of the words in Turkic or Mongolian: "hödür" instead of "ödür", for instance. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 19:12
Curses!  Thanks man. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 05:53
You are doing the same, have you asked yourself what the origin of Hengest was? as you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henchman - here , Hengest was the name of a Saxon chieftain.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hengest_and_Horsa - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hengest_and_Horsa : Hengest or Hengist (d. 488?) was a semi-legendary ruler of Kent in southeast England. His name is common Germanic for "stallion". He is paired in the early sources with his brother Horsa ("horse").
What is the synonym of "Hengestman"? Hanger-on, yes? Aren't these words similar? do you think all these words relate to "Stallion"? -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 08:28
Mother and father are similar (mama/nana and papa/tata) in almost every language, being the first sounds a baby can make. You can't use those words to link language families. Just comparing word lists is a bad method of comparing language families anyway. ------------- |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 08:29
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That's wrong again. And you have well proved that you don't think! Firstly, your source again support us - they say that 'hengest' means stallion, not 'follow'. You even wrote this part in bolds here! As for the name Hengest, it says it comes from the word for 'stallion'. That's normal, that's how the names emerge. For instance, Charles comes from the germanic word for 'freeman' (ceorl in OE). Or do you wanna say that 'Vladimir' predates the words 'vladar' and 'mir'?? As for the hanger-on - this is...OMG!! It's a compound of 'on' and 'hanger', and the latter is a noun created from the verb 'hang'. I think it's obvious, I can't even imagine how you could link those two. Cyrus, start to think. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 09:09
No. Only hengestman. Hanger-on has a different etymology, and quite obvious at the first glance!! It's even hanger-----on, so you can see it, and hanger is quite obvious too. Oh and, these two aren't similar, nope. |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 09:31
I question that. Do you have a source? In Scandinavian there are different: först, which means and is pronouced like first, and främst, which means foremost, and relates to "being in front". |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 09:58
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You might be right Mixcoatl. Could you please explain... what should be done instead?
------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 10:48
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Proto – Altaic: eba Meaning: to join, meet Turkic: ab- (come together; crowd), Tungus-Manchu: ebu-re- Proto-Korean: abor Middle Korean: a’or Old Japanese: ap Proto Indo-European: ap- (to clench, to tie round) Hittite: ep(p)- / ap(p)- (“fassen”) Avestan: apayeiti Old Indian: apnoti (to meet) Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 10:49
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Turkic: ay- (to become bright), ay-dyn (bright) Proto-Yenisseian: Yugh: an-es (morning) Proto Indo-European: ay-er (morning) Old Greek: aerio Germanicic: air-a- Avestan: ayary Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 10:53
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Proto-Altaic: ere, eri Meaning: early Turkic: er, ir, er-te, Mongolian: erte Tungus-Manchu: erü-n Middle & Modern Korean: iri Germanic: aira- Celtic: athir Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 10:54
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Proto-Altaic: karu Meaning: black Turkic: qara, kara Mongolian: qara, xara Old Japanese: kurwo Middle Japanese: kuro Proto-Yenisseian: kiri-m Ket: kiri-m (plural: kiring) Proto Indo-European: kerys- Old Greek: karümo- Baltic: kersh-a Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 11:00
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Proto-Altaic: ng’iole Meaning: pink; yellow Turkic: al Mongolian: öle Tungus-Manchu: ng’ule Proto Indo-European: alyw- (tin, light-yellow) Hittite: hali Slavic: olovo Baltic: alw-a-s Germanic: ilw-a- Notes: Turkic and Mongolian (of Altaic languages) have lost the nasal in the beginning of the word) ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 11:14
| Could you give me the source for 'olovo' please?? It doesn't mean 'yellow' today, it means plumbum (lead). |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 11:58
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"Olovo" meant "tin" (not lead) in Slavic. Now, I don't know the exact Slavic document, but "olovo" is from old Church Slavic (according to Dr. Sergei Starostin): "olovü" = "tin" in old Russian "olovo" = "tin" in Czech
The meaning "light yellow" has been taken from the color tin resembles: color "olovo" means "color of 'olovo' ". It might not be that simple! I mean, I might be wrong; but we see for instance in Persian:
"abi" = "blue" (originally "related to water") "ghahve'i" = "brown" (originally "related to coffee") "narenji" = "orange" (originally "related to orange-the fruit orange")
I might be wrong, anyhow. You know, this is just a simple awkward study. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 12:10
| I checked the Russian, and it means tin in Russian, but in Czech it is lead. 'tin' in Czech is 'cín'. |
Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 12:44
How close are Czech and Slovak languages? |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 12:51
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Since childhood we speak both, and watch Czech TV channels without realizing it's a foreign language. That's how close they are Anyway, how close is Lithuanian to Latvian? |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 13:24
Here's more information for you, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henchmen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henchmen
And incase if you don't read it, you say Henchmen has always ment a follower, here's when it actually really started to be used in that form of a definition,
Sorry guys for taking it off topic further, if this little discussion continues, I'll continue it in another thread as not to disturb this discussion anymore. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 13:35
Sadly not so close that people could interact with each other without problems. Almost like English and German. Tough those who live on the border don't have any problems to communicate with each other. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 17:28
comparing grammar, structure, sound inventory. Things that require a thourough knowledge of the languages you want to compare. But in any case, even if nothing could be done instead that doesn't make flawed methods suddenly less flawed. ------------- |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 17:34
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True. But there's a problem To speak for myself, in this case I can speak only for Slavic, Romance and Germanic languages (and for Romance only a bit). So this means that I can't compare two language families I wish I could speak at least Hungarian... Gok_toruk could share his knowledge on other language families (what's your native language anyway?) |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 18:17
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My mother tongue is Turkmen. So, I can tell you about Turkic, as well as Mongolian and Tungus-Manchu. About Korean and Japanese, I can only check my word list. I also know a bit about Yenisseian or languages like Chukchee. Let's give it a try Slayertplsko. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 18:42
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You can check grammatical and syntactical similarities/differences between languages without necessarily being able to speak them. All you need is the necessary reference books (of course if you're wanting to check the reference books are correct, that's different).
It is for instance fairly simple to ascertain that the Western Romance languages (French, Portuguese, Spanish) and English generally form the plural by adding 's', whereas Italian and German, say, don't, even if you don't speak any of those languages. ------------- |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 18:52
Thanks! Nevertheless, you've made some good notes. -------------
Så nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 19:29
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Proto – Altaic: aya Meaning: to go, walk Turkic: ay- Mongolian: aya- Tungus-Manchu: ay- Japanese: ayum Proto-Yenisseian: heyV-ng (heyang, heyeng, heying, heyong, heyung) Ket: eyeng Yugh: eying Kottish: heyang Proto Indo-European: ey- Old Persian: ayiti Old Greek: eimi Baltic: ey- Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 19:31
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Proto – Altaic: nera (probably “ ng’era “) Meaning: earth,floor Turkic: yer Mongolian: jir Tungus-Manchu: ner-ke Proto-Indo-European: er- Hittite: irha- (border) Armenian: er-kir (earth) Old Greek: era Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 19:33
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I've just found this one. Interesting to see a religous common word: Proto – Altaic: tang’giri ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:14
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I'm sorry, I can't help you with Slavic 'daga'...maybe it should have 'z'/'zh' instead of 'g'?? Then it could mean 'rain'. I've noticed this consonant shift in a few words. PGmc 'kuningaz'....PSlv 'kunedzi' PGmc 'kwenon'.....in Slavic languages 'žena', OCS 'zena' (both probably from PIE 'gwen') PGmc 'gulth'.....in Slavic 'zloto'/'zoloto'/'zlato' (PIE 'ghol' meaning yellow, green) But I don't know about any 'daga' connected to sky, heaven. What about your copula ('to be'), to discuss the grammar?? How do you use it in Turkic languages? Do you say it like IE 'my horse IS green' or like in Arabic 'my horse green'?? |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:26
It is obvious both words come from Old English verb "hengan" which means "to hang on, to depend on, to rely on", I don't say "henchman/hengestman" never means "horseman", there are several words which have different meanings from different origins but we are discussing a word which means "follower/dependant", "Hengest" could mean "Stallion" but why not "the most dependent"(henge+-est)? -------------
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Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:43
It seems the Scotish were the ones who made it into something other then someone who attends horses, and it was more modern writters who furthered it if we are to believe wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henchmen - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henchmen read the etymology of it there, I provided it in my previous post for you too.
By the way, I can't find the Old English word hengAn, but I did find HengEn which means: hanging; cross; rack, torture; imprisonment ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:51
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Well, I don't know about shift from "g" to "zh" in Indo-European; but in Altaic, if that "z/zh" is a later change from "sh/ch", so that's possible to consider this case, because "g/K" can change into "sh/ch". What about "doga"? Isn't there anything like "doga" in Slavic? Anyhow, about "to be": Almost all modern languages (of Altaic family) use "to be" the Indo-European style. There are a couple of "to be" roots: 1- Proto-Altaic "biyu" (exactly means "be") 2- Proto-Altaic "era" (is used with suffixes; "to be") For instance, Turkic "men-yng (or "menym") at-ym yashyl erken (or "eken") " = my horse is green. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 20:58
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The verb is 'hangian'. Hengest can be found in almost every Germanic language, so it's much older than OE. 'heng' is past 3rd singular of 'hón' (past participle is 'hangen'), which means to hang, to crucify. 'hengen' means a rack, cross, torture, imprisonment. 'henge' means 'hanging'/'hängend' (pres.part.) according to Koebler. 'hengest' is stallion, gelding, horse...simply horse. I can't find anywhere anything else than horse. Now, that's not a bad point henge+est, but: 1, have you ever seen -est added to a participle? 2, since it's common Germanic, it would have to be created at least in PGmc and the form is 'khangistas' |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 21:01
About 'doga', well it's a race of canine and it's quite international I think. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 21:03
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DOGA!!! Yeeees....rainbow, it didn't occur to me, and it's so simple OMG (maybe it's because I haven't seen a rainbow for years)  dúha in Slovak, I don't know about southern and eastern branch, but I would bet they have G instead of H there - it's a common difference. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 05:31
Avestan Dictionary: http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm - http://www.avesta.org/avdict/avdict.htm
Persian -> English Beh -> Good/Well
Behtar -> Better
Behest (Behtarin) -> Best
Behbeud -> Well-being
Behdar -> Well-doer -------------
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 06:43
One problem Cyrus, hengan isn't to be found in an Old English Dictionary. There is the verb hegan (to preform, achieve; hold a meeting) http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/tiff/oe_clarkhall/b0152.tiff - 1 , the nouns hengen (hanging, cross, rack, torture, imprisonment) and hengest, hengst [both fall under the same dictionary entry] (stallion, steed, horse, gelding) http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/tiff/oe_clarkhall/b0153.tiff - 2 . The Old English verb that means to hang is actually hón and it means to hang, suspend, crucify, put on (clothes) http://home.comcast.net/~modean52/oeme_dictionaries.htm - 3 , http://lexicon.ff.cuni.cz/tiff/oe_clarkhall/b0163.tiff - 4 . With this linguistic evidence how can you say that Hengest means hanger-on or follower? The simple fact of the matter is that there is no evidence to support what you are saying. In fact the evidence points to the contrary as other members have pointed out. Where are you getting your information from? It is clearly very flawed. Will you please stop corrupting language evidence to show things that the evidence doesn't support. Especially when it is so easy to prove your claims to be utterly preposterous and totally incorrect. |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 08:35
Thanks. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 15:45
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http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=2932&root=config - http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/etymology.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=2932&root=config
Proto-Germanic: *xánxan-/xangán- vb, *xangḗn- vb., *xangián- vb.; *xanxitjan- vb., *xanxaskēn, *xánxitōn
Meaning: hang
IE etymology: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/ie/piet&text_number=2932&root=config">
Gothic: *hahan st. `hang, keep in suspense'; fɔr(a)-hah n. (a) `curtain'
Old Norse: hanga st. `hangen'; hǟtta wk. `Gefahr laufen, wagen', hǟtta f. `Gefahr', hāski m. `Gefahr'; hengja wk. `hängen'
Norwegian: hanga vb.; hätta sbs., vb.; hengja vb.
Swedish: hänga vb. tr., itr.; dial. häta; dial. häjta vb.; (ält.) hask(e)lig `grässlich', dial. haskeli `schrecklich'
Danish: hänge vb.; hätte sbs., vrb.; hände vb.
Old English: hōn; hangian; hengan `hängen'
Old Frisian: hūa; hangia
Old Saxon: hāhan; hangon
Dutch: { gehengen `erlauben' }
Old High German: hāhan; hangēn; hengen
Middle High German: hāhen red. v. (prt. hinc, hie) tr. 'hängen', intr. 'hangen'; hangen st. intr. 'hangen'; hɛngen wk. 'hangen lassen; nachjagen, nachhängen'; vür-hanc st. m. `curtain'
German: { hangen; hängen }-------------
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:18
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Back to topic again: Proto-Yenisseian: aj ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:20
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Proto – Altaic: bi Meaning: 1st person pronoun a) I Proto-Turkic: be- Modern Turkic: men, ben Mongolian: bi, miniy, meni Tungus-Manchu: bi, bu Proto-Japanese: ba Old Japanese: wa Hateruma (of Modern Japanese): banu Proto Indo-European: ??? English: me German: mir French: moi b) we ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:20
| Cyrus, hón and hengan are not different verbs. Hengan is the past participle form of hón. Hangian on the other hand is an intr. verb meaning to hang, be hanged; depend, rest on; (as a trans verb) hang, suspend. By the way you still didn't answer my question. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:22
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Proto – Altaic: si Meaning: thou Proto-Turkic: se- Modern Turkic: sen Tungus-Manchu: si Old Japanese: si Proto-Yenisseian: ʔaw Arin: au Yugh: u Pumpokol: ue Proto Indo-European: te, tu Hittite: ti- (your) Old Indian: te Armenian: du Old Greek: sü Slavic: ti Baltic: tu, -tei Notes: ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:46
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What does 'hengan' mean? Hängen has different meanings in German, it has even different past and past participle forms. But 'hängen' itself doesn't mean 'to depend on' (in the meaning of condition or cause...this idiomatic meaning is attested first from 1413), that's 'abhängen (von jemandem/etwas - someone/something)', which has a few meanings as well. Hanger-on is from 1549. Both 'depend' and 'hang' originally meant 'to suspend'/'to be suspended', and the chande in meaning came much later. Still, 'henge' is a participle and doesn't go with -est to my knowledge, and means 'hanging' and is the present participle of 'hangian' ('hengan' too??). Old Teutonic form is 'hangjan', but the stallion has an 'x' in the beginning. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:53
The English form is originally ic, I appeared first after the Norman invasion. PIE: h₁eǵ, Latin ego, PGmc eka, Gothic ik, Old Norse ek, Icelandic ég, Norwegian jeg, Swedish jäg (?), German ich...and so on Slavic ja, French je, Spanish yo, Italian io |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 18:57
SG: English 'me' is an objective form, German 'mir' is dative form, French should be 'moi', and it's a disjunctive form. PL: PIE: wei |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 19:01
PIE form is tuH. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 19:25
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I made a mistake in typing about French "moi". Thanks Slayertplsko for the corrections.
------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 20:38
You yourself say 'henge' means 'hanging', so this is an adjective which comes from Old English verb "hengan"/"hangian", I think there also several other adjectives which relate to the verbs, for example "Warm" (Old English wearm) which comes from the OE verb "werman"/"wearmian" (to become warm), is "warmest" a wrong word? -------------
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 20:51
| Again Cyrus, according to A Concise Anglo-Saxon Dictionary by Clark-Hall hengan is a participle form of the verb hón not a separate verb. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 10-Jun-2008 at 21:08
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I don't know about 'warm' coming from a verb since it was an adjective in Proto-Germanic. It's just a corresponding adjective and as far as I know its corresponding verb comes from that adjective. http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=warm&searchmode=none - 1 The further difference is that 'warm' isn't a substantive verb form but a regular adjective. 'hangingest' doesn't exist - it's not a regular adjective, it's a verb that can function so, but comparison isn't possible there to my knowledge. And at last, 'henge' means 'hängend', not 'following', 'faithful' or anything similar. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 05:50
We are talking about "Henge" not "hengan", however similar to the Persian I'm sure the infinitive ending "-an/-ian" in "Hengan/Hangian" shows this is certainly a verb (more info about this Old English verb: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hangian - http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/hangian ), anyway we have the word "Stonehenge" which means "Hanging Stones", therefore "Henge" is an adjective, this is really interesting that I see, probably in Old Saxon, like Persian, the adjective comes also after the noun. -------------
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 06:39
Cyrus, you are the one who brought up hengan, specifically saying
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 06:58
If you did a little research you would know that hence comes from the Old English word hennes. Here is the entry for hence in the Online Etymology Dictionary:
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 08:53
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Hanging stones in OE: henge stānas. And what about hencg meaning hinge?? And then you would have to explaing why it is /stəʊnhɛndʒ/ and not /stəʊnhɛŋ/. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 13:29
Do you have an Oxford dictionary?
 -> hengan ‘to hang’, however I know that you will say Oxford is not a reliable dictionary!!  -------------
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 15:34
OK, I trust you that the verb exists in this form, but whence have you got its meaning - i.e. 'to rely on'? In every dictionary I checked, I can only see 'to hang', 'to depend', 'to be sustained' etc.
You did in fact, but never mind; that's beside the point. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 16:56
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Cyrus, did I say there is no form, hengan, no what I said was that it is not a separate, different verb. It is a participial form of hón (to hang).
By the way don't presume to know what I am going to say. The Oxford Dictionary is a reliable source, but that doesn't mean that it is infallible. |
Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 18:18
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Not to change the topic (!!!), but does anyone know the Proto-Indo-European root for French "noir"? Proto-Altaic form for the word "black" is "karu". Although I've mentioned this before in this topic, but I was just wondering if a Proto form existed as " ng'uwara":
both Indo-European and Altaic has reduced the initial nasal "ng", but in their own ways: a) French has reduced the nasal "ng" to "n" to make "noir" (which is pronounced "nuwar") b) Altaic has reduced the nasal "ng" to "g" to make "qara".
Could anyone help me with this, please? Any idea? ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |
Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 20:26
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I am a supporter of a version of Joseph Greenberg's Eurasiatic Hypothesis linking IE, Uralic, and Altaic. I don't think there was a Proto-Eurasiatic language. Instead I suggest that there was a large sprachbund that formed across northern Eurasia as the Last Ice Age ended and the ice sheets retreated, the various languages eventually becoming mixed together and coming to share many features, especially in vocabulary. As the world continued to warm forests spread across northern Eurasia and thus made movement harder, causing the sprachbund to break up. --- IMO the features of languages in this sprachbund were: An analytic morphology, with languages in the west tending towards becoming a more fully isolating, languages in the center tending towards developing inflection and agglutination, and languages in the east tending towards becoming agglutive. An SOV word order The verb system may have been Ergative-Absolutive. ----- The western languages gave rise to proto-Indo-European and perhaps a now-extinct group of languages of northern Europe that acted as a substratum influence on Proto-Germanic. A book I have called The World's Major Languages says that that PIE evolved from a language with an isolating and analytic morphology and that had an Ergative verb system. The central languages gave rise to proto-Uralic, proto-Turkic, and influenced the western language that became PIE as well as the eastern languages that became proto-Turkic and proto-Mongolic The eastern languages gave rise to proto-Mongolic and proto-Tungus-Korean-Japanese. ------------- "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." -Arnold J. Toynbee |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 20:30
I'll try to find french etymology dic on the web...hope I can still read enough French to understand |
Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 21:14
noir -> (nominative case) nigrus (root: niger) "the dark" -> (nominative case) *nekwos "the dark, the night" A possible proto-Eurasiatic form is "*nekwar" ------------- "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." -Arnold J. Toynbee |
Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 21:28
PIE: *'ego The apostrophe represents some laryngeal consonant like a glottal stop. ------------- "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." -Arnold J. Toynbee |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 11-Jun-2008 at 21:41
| It's usually represented by 'h1'. |
Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 00:10
I know, but I don't know how to get the 1 subscripted.  ------------- "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." -Arnold J. Toynbee |
Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 00:15
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Gok Toruk, I ran into this article you might like: http://www.kortlandt.nl/publications/art216e.pdf - Indo-Uralic and Altaic ------------- "Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now." -Arnold J. Toynbee |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 07:49
It seems this word has an opposite meaning in Arabic, Ghara (غراء), Nur/Nuwar (نور), Nahar (نهار), ... mean "white, light, day, bright". -------------
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Posted By: gok_toruk
Date Posted: 12-Jun-2008 at 08:49
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Thanks Odin for the artice, I've read this before. By the way, Mongolian language is closer to Turkic, than to Tungus-Manchu (I mean, when you say "the eastern languages gave rise to proto-Mongolic and proto-Tungus-Korean-Japanese). In the reconstructed form of Proto-Altaic (and daughter languages), it can be easily observed that Korean and Japanese are so similar to Proto-Tungus-Manchu (but not to to Mongolian) that one may conclude Korean and Japanese are kind of derivations from Proto-Tungus-Manchu. Anyhow, Prof. Starostin classifies Turkic and Mongolian, both, in Western group of Altaic languages, while Tungus-Manchu is the central and Korean and Japanese are the eastern branch. Mongolian, especially in its Proto form or old Written Mongolian is much more similar to Turkic, than to Tungus-Manchu. ------------- Sajaja bramani totari ta, raitata raitata, radu ridu raitata, rota. |