Ark of the Covenant
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Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mesopotamia, Near East and Greater Iran
Forum Discription: Babylon, Egypt, Persia and other civilizations of the Near East from ancient times to 600s AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23942
Printed Date: 24-Apr-2024 at 05:35
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Topic: Ark of the Covenant
Posted By: Guests
Subject: Ark of the Covenant
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 02:08
| Can anyone share some theories as to what happened to the Ark of the Covenant after the babylonians destroyed Jerusalem ? |
Replies:
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 02:35
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It was sold on E Bay.
Makes as much sense as most of the theories I've heard.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 02:58
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Well, the Ethiopian Orthodox Church (actually, they are not orthodox, but mono/miaphysite) claims that they have it...
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Suren
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 06:36
I thought they sold it in an auction in New York last year! ------------- AnfΓΈrer |
Posted By: Hebrewtext
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 08:46
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there is atheory it is kept secret hidden in Vatican city .
since the Italian rule of Ethiopia. it was brought from there to the Vatican.
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Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 12:40
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A Lead on the Ark of the Covenant When last we saw the lost Ark of the Covenant in action, it had been dug up by Indiana Jones in Egypt and ark-napped by Nazis, whom the Ark proceeded to incinerate amidst a tempest of terrifying apparitions. But according to Tudor Parfitt, a real-life scholar-adventurer, Raiders of the Lost Ark had it wrong, and the Ark is actually nowhere near Egypt. In fact, Parfitt claims he has traced it (or a replacement container for the original Ark), to a dusty bottom shelf in a museum in Harare, Zimbabwe. As Indiana Jones's creators understood, the Ark is one of the Bible's holiest objects, and also one of its most maddening McGuffins. A wooden box, roughly 4 ft. x 2 ft. x 2.5 ft., perhaps gold-plated and carried on poles inserted into rings, it appears in the Good Book variously as the container for the Ten Commandments (Exodus 25:16: "and thou shalt put into the ark the testimony which I shall give thee"); the very locus of God's earthly presence; and as a divine flamethrower that burns obstacles and also crisps some careless Israelites. It is too holy to be placed on the ground or touched by any but the elect. It circles Jericho behind the trumpets to bring the walls tumbling down. The Bible last places the Ark in Solomon's temple, which Babylonians destroyed in 586 BC. Scholars debate its current locale (if any): under the Sphinx? Beneath Jerusalem's Temple Mount (or, to Muslims, the Noble Sanctuary)? In France? Near London's Temple tube station? Parfitt, 63, is a professor at the University of London's prestigious School of Oriental and African Studies. His new book, The Lost Ark of the Covenant: Solving the 2,500 Year Mystery of the Fabled Biblical Ark (HarperOne) along with a History Channel special scheduled for March 2 would appear to risk a fine academic reputation on what might be called a shaggy Ark story. But the professor has been right before, and his Ark fixation stems from his greatest coup. In the 1980s Parfitt lived with a Southern African clan called the Lemba, who claimed to be a lost tribe of Israel. Colleagues laughed at him for backing the claim; in 1999, a genetic marker specific to descendents of Judaism's Temple priests (cohens) was found to appear as frequently among the Lemba's priestly cast as in Jews named Cohen. The Lemba and Parfitt made global news. Parfitt started wondering about another aspect of the Lemba's now-credible oral history: a drumlike object called the ngoma lungundu. The ngoma, according to the Lemba, was near-divine, used to store ritual objects, and borne on poles inserted into rings. It was too holy to touch the ground or to be touched by non-priests, and it emitted a "Fire of God" that killed enemies and, occasionally, Lemba. A Lemba elder told Parfitt, "[It] came from the temple in Jerusalem. We carried it down here through Africa." That story, by Parfitt's estimation, is partly true, partly not. He is not at all sure, and has no way of really knowing, whether the Lemba's ancestors left Jerusalem simultaneously with the Ark (assuming, of course, that it left at all). However, he has a theory as to where they might eventually have converged. Lemba myth venerates a city called Senna. In modern-day Yemen, in an area with people genetically linked to the Lemba, Parfitt found a ghost town by that name. It's possible that the Lemba could have migrated there from Jerusalem by a spice route and from Senna, via a nearby port, they could have launched the long sail down the African coast. As for the Ark? Before Islam, Arabia contained many Jewish-controlled oases, and in the 500s AD, the period's only Jewish kingdom. It abutted Senna. In any case, the area might have beckoned to exiled Jews bearing a special burden. Parfitt also found eighth-century accounts of the Ark in Arabia, by Jews-turned-Muslims. He posits that at some undefined point the Lemba became the caretakers of the Ark, or the ngoma. Parfitt's final hunt for the ngoma, which dropped from sight in the 1940s, landed him in sometimes-hostile territory ("Bullets shattered the rear screen," of his car, he writes). Ark leads had guided him to Egypt, Ethiopia and even New Guinea, until one day last fall his clues led him to a storeroom of the Harare Museum of Human Science in Zimbabwe. There, amidst nesting mice, was an old drum with an uncharacteristic burnt-black bottom hole ("As if it had been used like a cannon," Parfitt notes), the remains of carrying rings on its corners; and a raised relief of crossed reeds that Parfitt thinks reflects an Old Testament detail. "I felt a shiver go down my spine," he writes. Parfitt thinks that whatever the supernatural character of Ark, it was, like the ngoma, a combination of reliquary, drum and primitive weapon, fueled with a somewhat unpredictable proto-gunpowder. That would explain the unintentional conflagrations. The drum element is the biggest stretch, since scripture never straightforwardly describes the Ark that way. He bases his supposition on the Ark's frequent association with trumpets, and on aspects of a Bible passage where King David dances in its presence. Parfitt admits that such a multipurpose object would be "very bizarre" in either culture, but insists, "that's an argument for a connection between them." So, had he found the Ark? Yes and no, he concluded. A splinter has carbon-dated the drum to 1350 AD ancient for an African wood artifact, but 2,500 years after Moses. Undaunted, Parfitt asserts that "this is the Ark referred to in Lemba tradition" Lemba legend has it that the original ngoma destroyed itself some 400 years ago and had to be rebuilt on its own "ruins" "constructed by priests to replace the previous Ark. There can be little doubt that what I found is the last thing on earth in direct descent from the Ark of Moses." Well, perhaps a little doubt. "It seems highly unlikely to me," says Shimon Gibson, a noted biblical archaeologist to whom Parfitt has described his project. "You have to make tremendous leaps." Those who hope to find the original biblical item, moreover, will likely reject Parfitt's claim that the best we can do is an understudy. Animating all searches for the Ark is the hope and fear that it will retain the unbridled divine power the Old Testament describes. What would such a wonder look like in our postmodern world? What might it do? Parfitt's passionately crafted new theory, like his first, could eventually be proven right. But if so, unlike the fiction in the movies, it would deny us an explosive resolution. http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1715337,00.html - http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1715337,00.html |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 12:43
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I seriously think Parfitt's may have found it.
Heres a video.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23406793#23406793 - http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/23406793#23406793 |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 12:46
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As Moses had said in Deuteronomy, he alone made the ark out of only wood. The writers of Exodus never seen the ark,or the tablets, as it was was always hidden and could have invisioned a ark made much like the egyptian art infulence. When carried, the Ark was always wrapped in a veil, in tachash skins (the identity of this animal is uncertain), and a blue cloth, and was carefully concealed, even from the eyes of the Levites who carried it. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 12:48
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The Ethiopian claim the timeline is wrong. They claim Solomon`s Son removed the ark in 1,000 BC ,however the Bible records the ark as being in the frist temple 400 hundred years later when the Babylonians destroyed it in 586 BC. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Temple - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Temple |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 12:53
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Mountain of thunder And it came to pass on the third day in the morning, that there were thunders and lightnings, and a thick cloud upon the mount, and the voice of the trumpet exceeding loud; so that all the people that [was] in the camp trembled. Exd 19:17 And Moses brought forth the people out of the camp to meet with God; and they stood at the nether part of the mount. Exd 19:18 And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. What would be more fitting for Moses to have built, a wooden drum that thundered the voice of God.The Ark of Moses was also said never to touch the ground, just as in the lemba legend and also carried the voice of god . |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 13:20
| If Parfitt's theory is correct, does that mean that right now there could be another recreation of the ark holding the commandments yet to be found? |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 14:06
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Walraven you `ll have to watch the documentry ( Quest For The Lost Ark ) on history channel, it just air over the last weekend .
The item that Parfitt's has found a splinter was carbon-dated to 1350 AD ancient for an African wood artifact, but 2,500 years after Moses. Undaunted, Parfitt asserts that "this is the Ark referred to in Lemba tradition" Lemba legend has it that the original ngoma destroyed itself by fire some 400 years ago and had to be rebuilt on its own "ruins" "constructed by priests to replace the previous Ark
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 14:20
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Probably taken to Babylon and melted down. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 14:44
They claim to have a copy of it. At least that is the conclusion of the program I watched on tv. ------------- |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 15:13
Not likely according to no less an authority than Graham Hancock
   Ol' Graham says that the Babylonians were obsessive records keepers, if they had looted it they would have recorded it along with all of the other valuables taken.Makes sense to me.  ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 15:38
| Seco, yes in the Kebra Nagast ,The text, in its existing form, is at least seven hundred years old, however it odd that nothing was mention or written before that. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 18:14
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In the documentary, Tudor Parfitt claims that he knows it wasn't destroyed by the Babylonians, because they would've recorded it, and the hebrews would've mourned it's lost, and still be mourning it's loss today. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 19:10
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Moses, here is a man that wanted to put new laws into his people,and the non worship of idols. I can`t see Moses making anything to what the Egyptians had made in the art of worship. http://www.hethert.org/opet.htm - http://www.hethert.org/opet.htm |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 19:15
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The Hebrews are hiding it today then Red Clay. Orrcums razor, it stopped appearing after thge Babylonians even when old Cyrus showed up, ergo it got busted at that time. I saw that show too, and that Israeli acedemic was the most spot on. ------------- |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 28-Mar-2008 at 23:20
| The last record of the location of the Ark of the Covenant in the Tanakh, (Old Testament), is Jeremiah 3:16. "And it shall come to pass, when ye be multiplied and increased in the land, in those days, saith the L-RD, they shall say no more, The ark of the covenant of the L-RD: neither shall it come to mind: neither shall they remember it; neither shall they visit it; neither shall that be done any more. ( That was most likey because the ark was taken away not mourned, they had plenty of time in between the babylon attacks over a period of time to take it away. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 00:49
| Gee I `m not posting yesterday because I`m editing my posts today:):):) |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 01:47
Occam's razor doesn't apply, this is hardly scientific theory. Fun, but not science.
Two things bother me about the idea that the Babylonians carried it off. First, the amount of Gold in the Ark was not enough to make it an attractive prize. The bulk of it was Acacia wood. The gold wasn't much thicker than modern gold leaf, it wasn't solid gold. This makes it a relatively easy item to reproduce. They had the specs. needed to build one, which is what I believe they did, once the most important item, the covenant was safe. That's the 2nd thing btw. They removed the tablets from the Ark. Making it easier to transport without drawing undue attention. The Ark was most likely burned to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands. Easy to do if you know you can duplicate it later.
If you asked a Hebrew scholar I'm fairly sure he would tell you it was the Covenant that was important to the Hebrews of that time, not the Ark.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 02:17
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According to Exodus covering the box was the kapporet, a pure gold covering that was two-and-a-half by one-and-a-half cubits. Attached to the kapporet were two sculpted Cherubs, also made of pure gold.
Surely the Babylons would have recorded something of that nature in the treasues they had taken, whick makes me believe there was nothing of the sort, only what the writers of the Exodous invisioned this ark to be.
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Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 02:58
qoute- hardly scientific theory. Fun, but not science, it surely is science. I get a kick out of this forum in considering true history as in the case of atlantis or the ark of Covenant and classifying it as historical amusment ,when in fact it is true science 
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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 03:54
It is the lid, if you will. Again, if detached from the Ark, it would be easier to transport. The Ark did indeed exist, probably many times. By that I mean it has been destroyed and remade many times. The only true Ark otc. would be the one with the Covenant in it. That is what makes it sacred and was supposedly the source of it's power. It is the Covenant or the tablets, that is actually being sought. Without it the Ark is just a fancy wooden box with a covering of gold leaf which, btw, has the ability to store an incredibly powerful static charge. The theory that this was possible was tested years ago and more than once.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 05:01
| It should be noted that nowhere in the Bible does it claim that the ark had a incredibly powerful static charge, That part of the story comes from oral tradition. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 05:24
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In the ethiopian theory why would they take the ark away in 1000 bc before there were any attacks on the city. According to the Bible, the temple was pillaged many times during the course of its history by king Shishak of Egypt, c.933 BCE (1 Kings 14:25, 26); by king Asa of Judah, c.900 BCE in order to persuade Ben-Hadad I of Damascus to come to his aid against Baasha of Israel (1 Kings 15:9-24); by king Jehoash of Judah, c. 825 BCE, in order to pay Hazael of Damascus, who was besieging the city (2 Kings 12:17-18); by king Joash of Israel, c.790 BCE (2 Kings 14:14); by king Ahaz of Judah, 734 BCE, to persuade Tiglath-pileser III of Assyria to come to his aid against Pekah of Israel and Rezin II of Damascus (2 Kings 16:8, 17, 18); by king Hezekiah of Judah, 712 BCE, to pay king Sennacherib of Assyria, who was besieging the city (2 Kings 18:15, 16). by king Nebuchadnezzar II of Babylon who pillaged it twice- once in 597 BCE, and again in 586 BCE, after which he destroyed it (2 Kings 24:13; 2 Chr. 36:7). He burned the temple, and carried all its treasures with him to Babylon (2 Kings 25:9-17; 2 Chr. 36:19; Isaiah |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 13:27
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Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 29-Mar-2008 at 20:26
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Walraven, the Ark and its sanctuary were "the beauty of Israel" (Lamentations 2:1). Rashi and some Midrashim suggest that there were two arks - a temporary one made by Moses, and a later one made by Bezalel. Even the scolars suggest there is a reference to two different arks. I have to go with Parfitt ,the writers of Exodus never seeing the ark or the tablets, imagined the ark to be like what the egyptians would have made. And your right if Moses wrote the tablets on stone they should exist. However much of the story is not what it appears to be and Moses could have written them on papyrus .
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Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 13:36
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I can`t imagine Moses the busy man he was writing the laws on stone as they were so long, were`t there more laws that were added ?
Papyrus was around.
The earliest extant documented papyrus comes from Egypt's http://www.touregypt.net/hdyn1.htm - 1st Dynasty , but we believe it may have been used as early as 4,000 BC. It's use continued until about the 11th century AD.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/papyrus.htm - http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/papyrus.htm
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Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 15:23
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All that is known for certain is that the tablets that had the original Commandments were supposedly kept in it. Anything else is conjecture. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2008 at 19:54
Maybe the Hebrews did make a very small Calf out of gold to worship, but not like the movie pictured, a huge calf with people hanging all over it  Out of earing rings? How much gold would a slave have owned? And I sure the Egyptains would`nt have let them haul all this gold away.
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Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 01:42
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I think Tudor Parfitt did a very good research into his quest. I can`t help but think much of what was told in oral history when written the base was glorfied, the ark much like legends of the city of atlantis was all covered in gold and sliver. the Ark could have been just what was said in Deuteronomy,Moses alone made the ark out of only wood. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 04:27
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The instructions Moses had received said wood, Acacia, tbe. "Covered in gold". Docyabut, remember it depends on translation, how much influence other periods had on the writings etc. Also, if I remember, the Ark you speak of was the temporary one. This sort of goes back to what was saying about there having been many arks. Any Ark constructed in manner instructed would have been "the Ark" once it contained "the Covenant". ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 12:50
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Red Clay, that was my frist thought to, that there were two arks made, however after going over what Parfitt had suggested, the writers of the Exodus never really seeing the ark, could have imagined the ark to be like what the egyptians would have made,after all the books of the Bible are just that books that were written after the fact.
In Deuteronomy it say the ark was made only out of wood.
Deut 10:1: "At that time the Lord said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood." Deut 10:2: "And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou breakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark." Deut 10:3: So I made the ark out of acacia wood and chiseled out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I went up on the mountain with the two tablets in my hands. I realize I `m mosty talking to myself here
 however I find this subject so interesting. Thanks for your replys. |
Posted By: docyabut
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2008 at 13:11
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History of the Ark The Ark accompanied the Jews throughout their time in the desert, traveling with them and accompanying them to their wars with Emor and Midian. When the Jews crossed into the land of Canaan, the waters of the Jordan River miraculously split and the Ark led them through (Josh. 3). Throughout their conquest of the land, the Jews were accompanied by the Ark. The most dramatic demonstration of its power comes when the Jews breached the walls of Jericho merely by circling them, blowing horns and carrying the Ark (Josh. 6). After the conquest was completed, the Ark, and the entire Tabernacle, were set up in Shiloh (Josh. 18) . There they remained until the battles of the Jews with the Philistines during the Priesthood of Eli. The Jews, after suffering a defeat at the Philistines' hands, took the Ark from Shiloh to Even-Ezer in hopes of winning the next battle. But the Jews were routed, and the Ark was captured by the Philistines. Back in Shiloh, Eli, the High Priest, immediately died upon hearing the news (I Sam. 4). The Philistines took the Ark back to Ashdod, their capital city in the south of Canaan, where they placed it in the temple of their god Dagon. The next day, however, they found the idol fallen on its face. After replacing the statue, they found it the next day decapitated, with only its trunk remaining, and soon afterward, the entire city of Ashdod was struck with a plague. The Philistines moved the Ark to the city of Gath, and from there to Ekron, but whatever city the Ark was in, the inhabitants were struck with plague. After seven months, the Philistines decided to send the Ark back to the Israelites, and accompanied it with expensive gifts. The Ark was taken back to Beit Shemesh, and, according to midrash, the oxen pulling the Ark burst into song as soon as it was once again in Israel's possession (A.Z. 22b). The actual text of the story, however, tells a much grimmer tale: The men of Beit Shemesh were punished for staring disrespectfully at the Ark, and many were killed with a plague. From Beit Shemesh, the Ark was transported to Kiryat Yearim, where it remained for twenty years. From there, King David transported it to Jerusalem. En route, however, the oxen pulling it stumbled, and when Uzzah reached out to steady the Ark, he died immediately. As a result of this tragedy, David decided to leave the Ark at the home of Obed-edom the Gittite. Three months later, he moved it to Jerusalem, the seat of his kingdom, where it remained until the construction of the First Temple by David's son Solomon (I Sam. 5-6). When the Ark was finally placed in the Temple, the midrash reports that the golden tree decorations that adorned the walls blossomed with fruit that grew continuously until the Temple's destruction (Yoma 39b). The Ark remained in the Temple until its destruction at the hand of the Babylonian empire, led by Nebuchadnezzar 586 BCE. What happened to it afterward is unknown, and has been debated and pondered for centuries. Surely the Babylons would have recorded something of that value in the treasures they had taken.
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Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2017 at 14:07
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The Ark of the Covenant, one of the most famous lost artifacts of the Old Testament of the Bible, has been in the news again a few times. On the more far fetched side are claims of the Ark being at Oak Island, or at Temple Hardewyke. A more serious claim is that archaeologists are soon starting an excavation at Kiriath Jearim and allegedly have hopes of finding the ark there. Will they find the Ark there? It is our opinion that they won't. (They might find the teraphim that were there though?) The Jews have a natural expertise in biblical scholarship, and there are some clever elite gentile scholars, however the non-messianic-christian Jews and non-genuine-christian gentiles both lack or miss one or more key clues in this ark search. At the end of this post we give a list of all the main Ark location theories of others &/or ours. From this list we picked the locations which seem most likely to us. Below we briefly write on the reason for the most likely few locations (Bethesda, Engedi, Ethiopia, Calvary, Galilee). Bethesda/Bethzatha/Bezetha: Scenario is the Ark was hidden here sometime between Josiah/Hezekiah and Zedekiah/Jeremiah. Possible reasons for this location include: - In John 5:2 an angel comes down a causes the waters of pool of Bethesda to stir and whoever jumped in first was healed. This could possibly be connected with the Ark. In the pseudepigrapha an angel comes down and hides the Ark in some place near the temple. - Bethesda is not far from where the Temple was. - It is one of the hiding places of treasure in the Copper Scroll. - The name Bethesda means "house of mercy/grace". This could possibly link with the "mercy seat" on the Ark. It would be special message to Jews and gentiles re "saved by grace", and "I require mercy not sacrifice". The pool of Bethesda had 5 porches/colonnades, and 5 is number of grace, and/or connected with 5 books of the law. Bethesda has also been confused with Bethsaida "house of food/fishing". Plus the "sheep market/gate" there (Bethesda) also links with christian message too. Bethesda was "discovered in 1888" which recalls Jesus has value 888 (and number 8 means "new" like Adam "8th day man", Seth was 8th after Cainites, 8 souls in Ark, David 8th son of Jesse, circumcision 8 days old, etc). - Some of the claimed ark sightings under Jerusalem could possibly be of ark here? Wyatt supposedly saw ark under either Gordon's Calvary / Skull Hill or "old city of Jerusalem", and later when he went to go back with others he couldn't find the entrance. - This is probably one of the more safer locations re past and present contemporary situations? Also it is possible that the ark has decayed alot now (eg why does angel no longer come?) and so if/when found it will become not a major issue/deal anymore (like some bible verses possibly imply)? Engedi: Scenario is the ark was taken to refuge here maybe in Manasseh's reign, or before Babylonian exile. Possible reasons for this location include: - An ark book said that there is a sealed-up cave at what is thought to be the true site of David's cave of Engedi (not the popular tourist one in same wider area). (However this was a couple of decades ago and we don't know if they have since opened this cave?) - Engedi is a good possible refuge place not too far from Jerusalem. - In the Bible has major emphasis on God's (Yah's) promise to David for ever. There are quite a few places where king David and covenant and the ark/temple closely follow each other (eg 2 Chron 23-24; Ezek 34/37-40). "David" is corresponded with "Jesus" (Yeshua). Some think that the mercy seat on ark will be Jesus'/Messiah's/David's throne? Engedi / Hazazon-tamar also has links with palms, which recalls "blessed is he that comes in the name of the lord". (And link with "fishermen" in Ezek 47. Is also near Betharaba which recalls John the Baptist? It was an essenes site. Acacia grows there.) - In the Engedi area is a place-name Cades which recalls a nick name of Jerusalem 'Kadesh' "holy"; and a place-name Tel Goren which recalls the koren "horns/rays" of Moses; and a name Ein Shulamit "peace" which recalls Jeru-salem and Solomon. - Could be a link of Obed-edom of David story, Obadiah's cave of Elijah story, and Edom of book of Obadiah? - Has a date of 630-587 bc. Cons include: - "Only accessible to wild goats"? Ethiopia: Scenario is that Ark was taken out during bad reign of Manasseh. (Ethiopian tradition claims it was stolen by Menelik in reign of Solomon.) There is evidence that the Templars sought the holy grail in Ethiopia which was the "India" realm of Prester John. Possible reasons for this location include: - Hancock and Cornuke give pretty convincing evidences for an Ark having been there. We also found more evidences seemingly confirming that the "holy grail" was there. A picture of the magi bearing gifts to baby Jesus shows a grail in African's hand; and a picture of sons of Noah shows a cup by Ham (see picture in wikipedia "sons of Noah" article). The ark of the Lemba in Zimbabwe is possibly connected back to the Ethiopian ark, though it might link with Queen of Sheba & Punt? - The bible says that there will never fail to be someone sitting on David's throne, and levites service. Ethiopia seems the only possible match for these two things between the last king of Judah and now. Where levites are there probably must be an ark. Possible cons for this location include: - It is hard to believe that the Jews would have taken their ark into Egypt. - The "ark" in Ethiopia might possibly be the Table of the Sun mentioned in Herodotus. - It is claimed that Karpet & Sapritchian managed to get in to see the ark and that it turned out that the ark is just wooden tabot tablets. Calvary/Golgotha: Scenario is that Ark hidden here via cave in time of Zedekiah, and that during the crucifixion of Jesus the blood of Jesus dripped on the ark, and that Wyatt found this ark in his underground archaeological investigations. - Wyatt's claims of seeing the Ark under Skull Hill / Gordon's Calvary can not be dismissed without good reasons. - Wyatt's claim of blood dripping on the mercy seat of the ark recalls the story of some blood of Jesus being caught in the holy grail. - Skull Hill and the garden tomb do seem the best candidates for the real site of Calvary/Golgotha and Jesus' tomb. Possible cons: - Wyatt died age 66 which is abit of a spooky number. - They claim that when Wyatt went to go back with someone else that he couldn't find the entrance again. (Though it is possible that the Jews secretly moved the ark from there to somewhere else and sealed up the entrance.) - Wyatt has been accused of "fraud". (Though Wyatt has been proven more or less right not wrong about at least one or some things like Joseph in Egypt in 3rd dynasty.) - It is maybe abit of a stretch to believe that the blood was able to trickle all the way from the cross to the ark through quake crack, and to last 2000 years? Galilee: - There is a Moslem tradition that the ark is in Galilee. - There is a picture of wheeled ark in Capernaum, and this might be evidence of knowledge of ark being shifted up that way? (There is also a supposed "proto-ark" in Nabratein which place might be the real Nazareth of Jesus?) The list of the main Ark location theories that i have found includes: destroyed / in Heaven (Revelation/Apocalypse); Illinois (Kimball); Newark (Ohio, Dav Wyrick); America/USA (like Indiana Jones); Oak Island (fb); Temple Herdewyke (Stratford on Avon, UK, Philips / Cove-Jones); Tara (BI, Irish times); Pyrennes; "Priory of Sion has ark"; Rennes le Chateau; Chartres (France); Kalingrad (East Prussia, earth chronicles); Monreale; Vatican [there is a picture of Pope Gregory with an object that looks very similar to the/an ark]; in Ethiopia (Hancock, Cornuke, Grant Jeffrey, Raffaele); in Zimbabwe (Lemba, Parfitt); in Egypt (like Indiana Jones, cf Tut's ark); in Yemen; Mt Sinai; Petra (me when a teenager); between Moses & Aaron burial places (Pseudepigrapha); Mt Nebo/Pisgah (Apocrypha); Masada; Engedi; Qumran; between Jerusalem & Qumran (imaging); a now sealed/concreted-up cave/chamber under east Jerusalem; east of Jerusalem (Diefenbach, Norbergen); old city of Jerusalem (Procopius); Bethesda (me years ago based on John & Copper Scroll); Temple Mount (Rabbi Getz); Skull Hull / Gordon's Calvary "under old Jerusalem" (Wyatt); Bethlehem; in a Jordan church; Mt Gerizzim/Samaria; kiriath Jearim (2017); Obadiah's cave; Bethel; Shiloh; "Jehoash took the ark to Israel/Samaria"; Tabor; city of refuge; in Galilee (Moslem) [there is a picture of wheeled ark in Capernaum, and is a supposed "proto-ark" in Nabratein]; Antiochus Epiphanes took 2nd ark? Babylon; Mt Tsurugi in Japan; [Australia (Schmidt)?] ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 14-Jul-2017 at 22:56
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I'm of the mind that the Ark is in Ethiopia. The chosen guardians show signs of deterioration and only have a life of about 2 years after being chosen. There is something in the "holy of holys" that's affecting them. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 15-Jul-2017 at 12:14
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Could be. The case is indeed pretty convincing. There are other things that can effect people (moral/sin/lies, genders-related, water, etc). Maybe the water is fluoridated there (Axum). Its been doing the same to us here. Reminds me of recent years pictures of the last 5 US presidents. Or could be like King Tut's curse? Or maybe they have some other piece of temple treasure like an ephod? Or a later second made ark? In high school our science teacher said the Ark was linked with first known appearance of the bubonic plague. In late medieval picture has an ark being carried before pope Gregory 1 in a plague. Jeremiah verses possibly hint/imply that the ark was still in temple/Jerusalem in Zedekiah reign. Jeremiah says that Rechabites would be forever. A source says there were Rechabites in Mecca area. (Did the Kaaba hold the ark sometime?) ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2017 at 17:11
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Most of the legends surrounding the Ark speak of effects similar to radiation sickness.
The guardians at Aksum display similar after a period of time. ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: amature historian
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 13:10
I am curious what are the sources for the legends surrounding the Ark in regard to your radiation sickness claim? In the bible, the only person I recall being directly killed by the Ark was killed instantly, more like a giant electric shock than radiation. (I read one claim that the construction of the Ark as drescribed in the bible would act as a giant capacitor, with conducting gold over the insulting wood allowing a large and potentially lethal static charge to build up. Don't necessarily by it, seems having the gold on the outside will lend itself for the charge leaking away, but I suppose the gold =ould build up quite a static charge if properly insulated. The Ark had one of 2 fates, in my view: a. It was destroyed during one of the times that Jerusalem was captured. b. It was hidden during one of the sieges of Jerusalem, and became lost as the those responsible for hiding it were killed during the capture of the city. Had an enemy, like the Romans, captured the Ark, we would have seen evidence of that, like the menora and other Temple treasures show on Titus Column, In neither the Babylonian and Roman records is the Ark listed. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 13:43
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Interesting thought about questioning whether the Ark really did have any energy effects according to the bible etc. As to the Romans, the Titus column does actually possibly show an ark-like object. And a medieval picture shows an ark like object being carried before Pope Gregory during a plague event. (There is also an ark like object in painting in Monreale?) So they possibly may have an ark in the Vatican but it may only be a later 2nd ark from 2nd temple made after 500s bc. Antiochus Epiphanes is claimed by some to have captured such a 2ndary ark. The Vatican don't seem to have the ark though because otherwise they wouldn't be allegedly looking for it at Kiriath Jearim? I find it hard to believe they would have let i be destroyed or captured. If it was still in Jerusalem/temple in the Babylonian or other attack then somewhere nearby in Jerusalem is the most likely unless they were able to get away in some way and there was some safe area in some direction. The problem is they don't know for sure whether the ark was there anytime after Hezekiah's last testifying/witness statement. If it was removed during the bad reign of Manasseh &/or Amon then where could they have gone that was safe? ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: amature historian
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 15:18
I don't recall any "Ark" like object depicted in Titus' Column, nothing with winged cheribum on it that th3 bible desribes. A box might have been shown, but nothing like what the bible describes in detail. Can you show me a picture of the object you have in mind shown on Tutus column? If the Jews could not prevent their temple from being destroyed and their city captured, they would likely not be able to protect the Ark either. We know other temple treasure was captured, the Jews were not able to hide them, why should we think the Ark be any different. The Jews might have destroyed the Ark themselves to prevent capture I guess, and that would explain the silence - the Jews would hardly record the fact they had to destroy the Ark because God was unable to protect it. But unlikely, the Jews would have hidden it, or allowed it to be captured, and trust God to see it was returned, along with the other temple treasure,
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Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 16:24
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Yes it is true that it doesn't totally look like the ark in that there are no winged cherubim on top, but the object in pictures that i have seen nevertheless does still look to me abit like the (an) ark in some ways (box carried with poles very much like the ark). I only have dialup and only an older o.s. software so i'm not really geared up for pictures & videos etc, esp since google images got slower since changes, and i can't remember where i recently saw the picture again, but fortunately i have easily found it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Rom,_Titusbogen,_Triumphzug_3.jpg . Its the object on the (our) right hand side with the poles crossed like a St Andrew cross. True no cherubs on top, but i still can't shake the ark-like similarity, esp when also with the menorah and other temple stuff. (Though i may not have seen very close-up large clear enough pictures and i could be wrong.) Zechariah father of John Baptist might have been standing by such a second ark when angel visited? Sure they couldn't stop the city eventually falling and capture. But they knew for some time between start of the attack and the final fall/capture of the city and temple, and so they had time to hide the ark somewhere safe. It is possible to hide something where people won't find it. And they especially might not be likely to find hidden things (underground) in a devastated and deserted site. The other treasures were not as high value as the ark, so they didn't mind so much their capture. "God" was only "unable" because he has to allow humans & world to go their way and do their things if they refuse to love him. Some priests or prophet loyal to God might have hidden the ark for prophetic future. They might even have known all along and the silence is just to exoteric, though it looks like they don't know because they are allegedly looking for ark at Kiriath Jearim (unless they are really looking for the teraphim there or something else). I did a rough timeline of all Israelite biblical history to view periods since ark's last definite mention. God/eternity "gap"/"Sammael's flood"? Day 1 2nd day 3rd day 4th day 5th day "6th day man" (Lilith, Samael) 7th day 8thdayman/Adam Eve Cain Enoch Irad Mehujael, Methusael Lamech Tubalcain, Jabal, Jubal Seth "8th" Enosh Kenan/Cainan Mahalalel Jared Enoch Methuselah Lamech Noah c 1656 am Shem, Ham, Japheth Arphaxad Shelah Kenan? Eber/Hud Peleg, Joktan Reu Serug Nahor Terah Abraham c 2000s bc Isaac Jacob/Israel [= Khufu/Cheops] Levi, Joseph c 1800s bc (gap), Ephraim, Manasseh Kohath (gap) Amram Moses, Og of Bashan c 1400s bc, c 2666 am. Joshua/Hoshea Caleb Kenaz Cushanrishathaim, Othniel Ehud Shamgar Deborah/Barak Gideon/Jerubbaal Abimelech Tola, Jair Jephthah Ibzan, Elon, Abdon Philistines, Samson Eli ... & ... Samuel ... & ... Saul Ishbosheth David c 1000s bc? (Absalom) (Adonijah) Solomon (Hiram, Genubath, Menelik) Rehoboam (Jeroboam, Menelik, Adramis) Egyptian (Shishak/Susakim, Zerah) c 900s bc (Israel & Judah & Edom & Syria kings/chronicles) Neo-Assyrian (TP3, Sennacherib) c 700s bc (Judah kings/chronicles c 600s bc) Neo-Babylonian/Chaldean (Nebuchadnezzar, Necho) c 600/500s bc Medes (Darius) Achaemenid/Persians/Iranian (Cyrus) [Athenian] [Spartan] [Theban] Greco-Macedonian (Alexander) 300s bc. Antigonid Ptolemies/Egypt (Leontopolis) Seleucids/Syria (Antiochus) Maccabees/Hasamoneans Herodian/Boethusian/Romans (vs Parthian) (Caesar, Jesus) bc/ad Roman (Titus) Byzantine Persian/Parthian Arabs/Moslems/Caliphate 600s Crusaders/Templars 1100s Ayyubids (Saladin) Mamlukes Ottoman Turks French (Napoleon) 1700s-1800s Ottoman Turks Egyptian Ottoman Turks British/League of Nations 1900s Israeli/Zionist/living memory (Wyatt, Rabin, Arafat, Netanyahu) 2000s ad future/unfulfilled prophecy, eternity ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: amature historian
Date Posted: 23-Jul-2017 at 19:45
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I came across an article that said Josephus said that the room that housed the Holy of Holies in the Temple was empty, so that in the Secon Temple period (by Roman times) the Ark was already missing. So the Ark either became lost during Egypt's (Sheshonq's) invasion of Judah, or the Babylonian's. The bible did say Shishonk carried away everything of gold from the Temple in the reign of Solomn's son, and we never hear of the Ark again in the Bible, although we know the Ark was in the Temple in the time of Solomn himself. Another possibility is that the Ark just rotted away - it was just made of wood covered with gold, and perhaps in a 1000+ years a wooden object could have become rotten.
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Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 24-Jul-2017 at 13:27
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Yes it is generally considreed that the ark was missing ever since time of Babylonian captivity. Thats interesting i didn't know Josephus said such, i'll have to look it up. I think he also said the Ark was at Mt Gerizzim? (Is it coincidence that name Kiriath Jearim similar in English?) But i wouldn't place too much faith in Josephus. The bible is considered to imply in Kings/Chronicles that the Ark was definitely still there in Hezekiah's reign. Only mention after is in Josiah reign but it is not definite. Jeremiah possibly implies that the Ark was still there in his time before Babylonian captivity. So i personally don't think Shishak [or "Menelik"] took the ark. (Shishak/Susakim may be Tutankhamun, (Zerah may be Ramses 2 "Sestura",) and his gold may have come from temple treasures. He is certainly not Sheshonk as orthodox have it, for various reasons including that their campaigns don't match.) Seems to have vanished most likely between Hezekiah or Josiah and Zedekiah/Jeremiah times. Only major incidents then were bad reign of Manasseh & Amon, and Babylonians attack. Re the Manasseh & Elephantine & Ethiopia theory Hancock's book 'Sign & Seal' is very interesting, and Bob Cornuke's. Agreed that it is not very likely it would have lasted very well for so long. Depends on how well preserved by hiding place. But i had the thought awhile ago that the 10/12 commandment tablet/tablets would last, and the gold. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2017 at 12:59
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I'm having probs posting. I've tried to reply to 5-6 threads but get error messages. Anyone else having issues? ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2017 at 13:37
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Test post. Forgot to mention that Egyptian has mention of the "ark of the A(a)mu" (I think Bristowe mentions this?) ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: amature historian
Date Posted: 27-Jul-2017 at 20:06
No, I have not experienced any log in problems
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Posted By: Lee
Date Posted: 05-Oct-2017 at 23:37
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Most of the Old Testament stories were written in Hellenistic times. Joseph had horns and wore the the crown of laurel associated with Apollo ( Laurus Nobilis )( Gen 49:26 / Deu 33:16 ) , the story of Joseph concludes that he was placed inside a 'Chest' ('arown), which is the same Hebrew word for 'Ark' of the Covenant. The horns, crown of laurel and being handed over the crown of Egypt, this identified him as Alexander the Great. Alexander the Great died early, but soon after, his body was placed inside a coffin upon a funerary cart that travelled through Syria, was hijacked many times( 1 sam 4:11) , it went to Macedonia and then to Egypt. The proof is 1 Samuel 6:8 ' Funerary Cart ' - Take the Ark (Coffin) and lay it upon the Cart The Ark of the Covenant was Alexander's Funerary cart. Towards the end of the Ark's journey, it stopped at 'Beth Shemesh' ( House of the Sun ) and Egypt was the final resting place of Alexander's funerary cart.  ------------- Hope rises like a Phoenix |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 23-Feb-2018 at 16:23
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Found another possibility. When Herod the Great robbed King David's sepulchre/tomb (in Josephus) they were stopped by a flame of fire flashing. Maybe the ark could be there. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Feb-2018 at 12:08
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The Jewish historians themselves had their own record of what happened to the Ark. It was mentioned as being in the Temple of Solomon during the reign of King Josiah. But later references in the books of Ezekial and Jeremiah present it as part of a vision or symbol. It is not mentioned in the list of Temple items carried away by the Babylonians, nor in the list of items brought back when the Temple was rebuilt. In 124 BC The Second Book of Maccabees was written, and book 2 records that at the time of the Babylonian threat to Jerusalem;
"These same records also tell us that Jeremiah, acting under divine guidance, commanded the Tent of the Lord's Presence and the Covenant Box to go with him to the mountain where Moses had looked down on the land which God had promised our people. When Jeremiah got to the mountain, he found a huge cave and there he hid the Tent of the Lord's Presence, the Covenant Box, and the altar of incense. Then he sealed up the entrance. Some of Jeremiah's companions tried to follow him and mark the way, but they could not find the cave. When Jeremiah learned what they had done, he reprimanded them, saying - No one must know about this place until God gathers his people together again and shows them mercy." The 2nd Century BC Jewish historian Eupolemus, records that when Nebuchadnezzar took away the wealth of the Temple, he did so without the Ark or the Tablets because these had already been taken by Jeremiah. Josephus, writing about 94 AD, might be referencing this secret expedition of Jeremiah, sanctioned by the elders and priests, in Book 10 of his Antiquities, chapter 6 he writes; Now when this prophet [Jeremiah] had written all his prophecies, and the people were fasting, and assembled at the temple, on the ninth month of the fifth year of Jehoiakim, he read the book he had composed of his predictions of what was to befall the city, and the temple, and the multitude. And when the rulers heard of it, they took the book from him, and bid him and Baruch the scribe to go their ways, lest they should be discovered by one or other; The New Testament also carries the tradition that Jeremiah hid the Ark. In the Gospel of Matthew we are told that Jesus was believed by some Jews to be the prophet Jeremiah. This reflects the belief that when the end times came, Jeremiah would return and reveal the whereabouts of the Ark. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 27-Sep-2018 at 10:49
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Not sure if this one is possible/likely or not? Hancock said the ark seems to have disappeared between the reigns of Hezekiah and Josiah in the reigns of Manasseh and Amon. Among the contemporary prophets of these kings reigns according to one source is Micah who prophesied about Bethlehem/Ephrathah. The town of Bethelehem also features in Psalm 132 which also mentions the ark. This Psalm 132 says "we have found it in he fields of the forest", and one wonders if the "it" is the ark? Josephus also mentioned golden treasures found in David's sepulcher in the reign of Herod the Great nearabouts to the time of Jesus' birth. Bethlehem means house of bread which could possibly also connect with the shewbread (and with Afikoman which some have claimed can mean "Hapi is found"?) Lemesurier's book showed Bethlehem connected with an alignment line from Giza. Ark as the throne of son of David could also connect with Bethlehem as the town of David? Psalm 132 mentions two places Bethlehem and Jerusalem as possible locations of the ark. (The Psalm is one of the songs of ascents and it might possibly date from David's time rather than from Micah's time though, and so its reference to the ark might not be connected with the later lost ark's location.) The Ark is seen to be in heaven in Revelation/Apocalypse. This might possibly mean that evidence is found that the ark "died" - either records evidence or physical remains evidence. It also might mean it will be found in Jerusalem which is the earthly counterpart of the heavenly New Jerusalem. Psalm 132 possibly implies that the ark will always be in Jerusalem? The sight of the ark in heaven in Revelation might mean that evidence will be found then of the ark's perishing in past centuries, or it might mean that the ark will perish in that chapter's times after being previously refound in modern times (since the chapter is pretty late in the end times). There might be a possibility that the ark's location might be hinted at in the book of Lamentations? Lamentations 4 mentions gold. Lamentations has been supposed to be connected with Josiah. The last mention of the ark occurred in Josiah's reign. Possibly the ark could have been left in Josiah's tomb, which could also be a sort of messianic symbolism (Josiah as a type of the messiah). Jesus said "from the blood to Abel to Zechariah". Maybe the ark could be in/under the "tomb of Zechariah" (or the tomb of the prophets Haggai, Zechariah & Malachai)? This tomb has a carved picture similar to a temple or ark building.... Zechariah was during the reign of Jehoash, only a few decades/kings before Hezekiah, while the last mention of the ark was either in reign of Hezekiah or Josiah, so the ark's disappearance can't be directly connected with Zechariah, but the ark's disappearance could possibly have been connected with Zechariah's tomb, especially since Zechariah is supposed to be time of Nebuchanezzar in some rabbinic sources? There was also a high priest Zeraiah or Azariah in the times of the ark's disappearance in Josephus. (Zechariah was also the priest father of John the Baptist in the Temple in Luke 1, where an angel appeared in the holy of holies. Bethany on the east of Jerusalem is also called el-Azariyeh, and it is associated with Lazarus/Eleazar "God help". God often helped Israel via presence of the ark. Bethany is nearby/on the Mount of Olives.) The tomb of Absalom (and/or cave of Jehoshaphat) is also called the tomb of Zechariah in an inscription. The book of Malachai is also connected with the Temple. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2018 at 01:45
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Well, here's my take. It's all about documentation. According to the narrative of II Chronicles 35:3, Josiah celebrated a Passover with the ark being placed into the Temple. This occurred in his 18th year, hence, since he reigned 31 years and his reign ended in 609 BC the beginning would be about 640 BC. His 18th year would be about 622 BC. Now the Chronicles (I and II Chronicles) were originally one work mentioning a last historical event to the first year of Cyrus (probably when he took Babylong) hence 539 BC. but containing some genealogical information bringing its creation to about 350 BC. A second work known as I Esdras (Ezra plus the last 2 chapters of II Chronicles and additional chapters) which was composed sometime in the first century BC mentions that at the end of the reign of Zedekias (587 BC) "And they took all the holy vessels of the Lord, both great and small, with the vessels of the ark of God, and the king's treasures, and carried them away into Babylon." (I Esdras 1:54) In this verse the vessels of the ark are mentioned, but no ark. The same text does mention previous raids by Nebuchadnessar such as in 598 BC when he took Joacim prisoner: "Nabuchodonsor also took of the holy vessels of the Lord, and carried them away, and set them in his own temple at Babylon" (I Esdras 1:41) And his son "Joacim" one year later "So after a year Nabuchodonosor sent and caused him to be brought into Babylon with the holy vessels of the Lord" (I Esdras 1:45) The ark may have been taken during any of these times......or not. The argument can be made that because the ark was not explicitly mentioned in these earlier raids (and because the ark was so central in the religion of the Jews) that the absence of it being mentioned could be quite telling. If the ark had disappeared prior to the first raid, then any theory is possible. If Josiah had it hidden, (after 622 BC) it couldn't have happened (according the rabbinic tradition) to prevent it from falling into the hands of the Babylonians since at this time, the Babylonians were still battling the Assyrians for their independence. The land of Assyria wasn't completely conquered until 609 BC and the remnants of its army wasn't defeated until 605 BC. If Jeremiah had it hidden as recorded in II Maccabees written about 124 BC at the earliest, in which he supposedly prophesied that "The place shall remain unknown until God finally gathers his people together and shows mercy to them. The Lord will bring these things to light again, and the glory of the Lord will appear with the cloud, as it was seen both in the time of Moses and when Solomon prayed that the shrine might be worthily consecrated" this would be at variance to Jeremiah 3:16 in which the same prophet prophesied that the ark will not be mentioned, remembered, missed, or recreated. The implication is that it is an object of the past. I'm of the thought that it simply disintegrated after centuries of existence. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 06-Oct-2018 at 16:36
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Some scholars have suggested that in the reference to the ark in Josiah's reign they may not necessarily have actually been able to put the ark back. Though i agree that Josiah's passover seemingly may confirm that the ark was involved. So the last definite mention of the ark in OT (excluding apocrypha) is either in Hezekiah's or Josiah's reign. I agree that the ark might have disintegrated over centuries/millenia. Though they may have maintaned and repaired it while it was still . But we could still find evidence of it (either physical remains (esp since the gold would not decay so much) or documentary evidence). Revelation sayig the ark will be seen in the temple i heaven might/could mean evidence will be found (but not until after the Two Witnesses who dont seem to be here yet). Ezra was someone i have also thought about re the ark too. I was not sure because Ezra was in the Persian period after the Babylonian taing of Jerusalem. The Koran says the Jews considered Ezra their messiah. Ezra's name might be connected with . The referece in Jeremiah 3 might only be connectd with christians/messianic being arks superceding the old ark. The Pseudepigrapha mentions the ark was either hidden by an angel under the Shetiyah (Dome of the Rock), or in Sinai, or half way between the burial places of Aaron and Moses. I wonder if Mt Karkom is a possibility (since this might be Mt Hor)? Obadiah mentions treasures of Edom. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 07-Oct-2018 at 20:20
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Well I would beg to differ regarding the reference in Jeremiah 3. It clearly is talking about a physical ark, when it says "....nor will another one be made.", so hence no reference to another "ark" replacing it. Instead, the prior verse just talks about shepherds which would lead the people to "knowledge and understanding". In the book of Hebrews (chapter 9) where the old Most Holy Place containing the ark is described, it talks about the role of the high priest who takes the sacrificial blood into the Most Holy Place for the sins of the people once a year. It is then compared with the new Most Holy Place where the Lord is the High Priest baring his own blood as the sacrifice once for the sins of the people. While the ark is not mentioned in the comparison, it is implied that is it is included in the "copies" of everything in the heavenly original Most Holy Place (verse 23). The heavenly ark is only explicitly mentioned in Revelations 11:19 There are no references to "Christians/messianics" being arks. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2018 at 02:17
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It looks like the Ark is maybe a symbol of Jesus Christ. Ark: box/chest, directions to make Jesus: human vessel conceived by holy spirit after angel's directions; "a body you have prepared for me". Ark: the ark (and/or the grail) is identified by some with Mary who was called "Ark" in some sources; ark "contained a hexagram representing the sexual union of God and Goddess". golden ark in holy of holys "symbolised the localised presence of God on earth". Jesus: conceived by God the holy spirit in virgin Mary. Emmanuel "god with us", "son of (most high) God". The shekinah or kabod (dove/Jonah?) was above the mercy seat which means the ark cant be God on one hand, but can be associated with the presence of God on other hand. The only begotten physical presence of God on earth ever was the son of God (Emmanuel "god with us"). "No one has seen the Father except the Son who came down". "He who has seen Me has seen that Father". The ark can only be either the Godhead/Trinity,or Father, or Son, or Spirit. It cant just be Mary or a bishop or the Cross etc. Ark: of the covenant (brit/berit) Jesus: of Nazareth, a Nazarene or Naziritie "consecrated"? New covenant/testament. (Nozrei ha-Brit "Keepers of the Convenant".) Ark: The golden Ark was a counterpart of the Golden Calf. The calf could be Apis/Hapi/Serapis who is similar to Abel and Jesus. Some said Afikoman could mean "Hapi is found" Ark: Joshua and ark pass through the Jordan river, ritual washing before approaching it, (English word ark also used for Noah's Ark). Jesus: baptised in Jordan. (Noah's Flood type of baptism and dying with Christ. Jesus in boat in storm in sea/lake of Galilee.) Ark: carried by sons of Levi on wilderness wanderings. Jesus: 40 days of temptation/fasting in wilderness; [died about 40 years old?] Ark: "heavily guarded". Jesus: angels protected him. Ark: "sacred object" Jesus: holy/annointed, lamb with no blemish/sin. Ark: stone tablet/tablets of law inside Jesus: Jesus kept the Mosaic law/commandments, fulfilled law after died on cross, law written in christians hearts; "he who loves me keeps my commandments"; (we are not saved by only trying to keep the law but by dying and raising with him.) We cant save ourselves just by keeping that law (compare Cain, compare the baker in story of Joseph, compare the sailors in Jonah 1). Jesus fulfilled the law. He is the Word (which includes to Torah/Law). In the Bible skip code, Yeshua in Torah "points to Leviticus / the Law". He writes the law in our hearts. The first tablet(s) were broken. "The law will go forth from Zion" (Davids city)? "The interpreter of the law" in DSS. Ark: contained pot of manna Jesus: Jesus implied that he was "the true bread from heaven", communion bread & wine, "what father saked for bread gives a stone?". Ark: of such sanctity that unauthorized person touching it is an infraction. Jesus: "holy", son of god. Ark: "power" Jesus: power(ful). Ark: returned to Kiriath-jearim Jesus: Nazareth? Capernaum? Emmaus? Bethlehem? Ark: kept at Shiloh Jesus: identified as the messiah and Shiloh of "until Shiloh comes", prince/king of peace. Ark: compasses Jericho. Jesus: passed through Jericho; circuit. Ark: rings on side for poles for carrying, transportable, transported on ox-cart, placed in tabernacle tent. Jesus: rode on colt/ass, carried cross, took our sin/sins/sickness, Jesus/God in our hearts, (body temple of holy spirit). (Our bodies are mortal.) Ark: captured by Philistines "strangers" Jesus: Jews betrayed him to Romans Ark: taken to Jerusalem Jesus: set face to go to Jerusalem Ark in house of Obed-Edom "servant of Edom/Adam". Jesus in realm of Herod who was Idumean/Edomite. (Edom/Adam means "red, earth, man", connected with Aram via d/r interchange. Jesus is the "new/second/last Adam". David was "ruddy/red". Jesus spoke Aramaic. Jesus/David had an ancestor named Obed. In the second coming Jesus comes from Teman/Bozrah in one biblical end times prophecy.) Ark: for tabernacle use, brought into temple by Solomon Jesus/Jeshua: was in the temple a number of times. Became our high priest when died on cross, (temple curtain torn). Ark: made of acacia/shittim wood, 2 ft wide & 3 ft long Jesus: Sethite, was a carpenter, the cross was made of wood, cross is long trunk & short arms. Ark: word aron also means "coffin". Jesus: lamb of God who died on cross. Ark: associated with Mt Sinai/Horeb, and/or Zion/Moriah. Jesus: associated with Mt Calvary/Golgotha (Paul compared Sinai/Hagar and Calvary/Sarah), and Zion. (Sermon on the mount. Mount of the transfiguration.) Ark: had a cover/lid, "mercy seat", "to purify, attone", same root word as in yom kipper "day of attonement", connected with blood in Mosaic ritual, (Wyatt claimed that Jesus blood dripped on mercy seat? Some suggest ark is throne of David?) Ark was also corresponded with the Holy Grail (and there is also a traditional theory that drops of Jesus blood were caught in the grail.) Jesus: annointed, Jesus died for us, "I require mercy not sacrifice", Abel's sacrifice, covers/cleanses our sin; Jesus is associated with throne of David; (seated at right hand of God.) Ark: 2 cherubim on top ("Michael/Jesus & Lucifer/Gabriel"? 2 cherubs in Eden?) Jesus: Jesus & John; hermaphrodite/androgyne? 2 witnesses Moses & Elijah; 2 theives/crosses on either side; Jesus & Lucifer rivals in some sources? 2 comings/messiahs; king & priest; Alpha & Omega; Israel & Church; father & spirit; son & holy spirit; full of grace & truth. (Two or three columns in the Cabalaistic tree of 10 sephiroth.) Two thieves on either side of Jesus/Cross (like the baker and cupbearer in Joseph story). Ark: was gold(en) (within and without), treasure, a most sought for object, "no more will people say 'the ark'" in Jeremiah 3:16, in most holy place Jesus: Jesus is the most precious treasure/pearl, he was sold for 30 pieces of silver; in end times remnant of Jews and christians will all have God/Jesus with/in our hearts. (He fixes us inside & out.) "you are poor, but you are rich" (Revelation 2-3). The golden ark cant just be Mary or a bishop or the Cross etc. Everyone can have this most precious person-ark in their hearts. ("Bronze is judgement, Gold purified".) (John 3:16.) Ark: contained Aaron's rod that budded Jesus: sprout/shoot/branch; our high priest; high priest Jeshua in Haggai/Zechariah. Jesus has a rod of iron in Revelation. Ark: contained 2 or 3 items (tablets of law, jar of manna, & Aarons rod?). Jesus: 3 offices (king, priest, prophet)? Trinity. "I am the way, the truth and the life"; Loaves & fishes? 2 witnesses. Ark: Koran says ark is "a sign of his kingship" and "a sign for you". Jesus: king of the Jews, King of Kings; sign of Jonah. Ark: nothing known of its later history; in temple in heaven in Revelation Jesus: ascended to heaven, seated at right hand of God, our high priest, in our hearts (body is temple) Islam: stone/rock Kaaba in house at Mecca is a bethel of Allah/Allat. Judaism/OT: golden ark in holy of holys "symbolised the localised presence of God on earth (in judgment, mercy, forgiveness, and love)", shekinah/kabod of Yhwh/Elohim. (The Islamic Arabic cognate of Shekinah means peace of reassurance or spirit of tranquility.) Christian: Jesus in our hearts, Emmanuel "God with us". (Jesus also associated with judgment, mercy, forgiveness, love. Jesus is prince of peace.) Ark: "ark of God", "ark of the lord" Jesus: called "lord", "son of God", lamb of God Ark: most holy place, holy of holies "or three holy ones"? Most Holy Place of Tabernacle contained golden censor and ark of the covenant. Jesus: Father, Son and Spirit in our hearts. (Golden censer might represent holy spirit?) Ark: word for ark in Hebrew is aron or arek, while in gentile it is kibotos or cistae. Jesus: Christ(ians)? (Hislop connected the word Archia/Architis with Ruach "spiritual". Arke is also the word for earth(s) in Jewish legend about Cain? Archons are archangels/aeons in Gnosticism, and in Greek political/state history?) Jesus: Newton etc saw Jesus as interpreter. Ark: organ through which God spoke. Stephen in Acts said Moses said Messiah (Jesus) would be a prophet like himself. He also said Moses was a vey beautiful/handsome baby/child. The ark is a most beautiful golden object. Ark: Babylonian conquest. Jesus: Roman invasion. Ark: may have decayed over centuries/millenia? Jesus: christianity/church decayed over millenia? Ark: "Jewish fear of discovery". Jesus: Jews have been pretty anti-Jesus. Ark: "unthinkable of excavating [for the ark] until the messiah comes". Jesus: is the messiah; the ark is symbol of him. Ark: recovered from Philistines. Jesus: christianity has mainly been gentiles/Romans between the destruction of Jerusalem and the end times when a remnant third of Jews will be saved. Ark: Ark and high priest in holy of holies of temple/tabenacle in Hebrews. Jesus: Jesus is the high priest in Hebrews. However, the temple is our body or heart. We are also (kings and) priests. It seems that we are the priest in our heart/temple. The ark was the central object not the high priest. Jesus is of order of Melchizedek not Levite like the OT high priest; he was/is also Judahite royal messiah not just the Aaronic priestly messiah. The rod of Aaron who was high priest was inside the ark; ark is 'aron' in Hebrew. Aaron means either "lofty, exalted, mountaineer" or "(a) light, enlightener" (or an uncertain Egyptian origin); Jesus was "the light". Jesus doesn't leave our hearts; the ark stays in the temple all the time, the high priest comes and goes (and only once a year). ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 08-Oct-2018 at 10:06
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Ark of Gregory might be from the ark-like object in Titus arch?  There are a few ancient Greek/Cretan ark-like objects:    ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2018 at 00:41
| A-R while there is a complete lack of a comparison as to what the ark symbolizes in the New Testament, I will still have to reference back to Hebrews chapter 9. Jesus is the High Priest, so the ark must symbolize something else. Since the High Priest (who must be ritually pure) is offering the blood to God, I would suspect that the ark represents the Presence of God. Within it are the tablets (God's Law), the rod of Aaron (God's authority) and the manna (God's providence). |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2018 at 02:28
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I dont agree that there is a complete lack of comparison. Yes i also did think that also about the Jesus is the high priest in Hebrews, but i don't see it is definitely a contradiction without any solutions. Things are not always all only one set (human) interpretation/view/theory. The temple is our body or heart. We are also priests. It seemed to me that we are the priest. The ark was the central object not the high priest. Jesus is of order of Melchizedek not Levite like the OT high priest; he was/is also Judahite royal messiah not just the Aaronic priestly messiah. The rod of Aaron who was high priest was inside the ark; ark is 'aron' in Hebrew. Aaron means either "lofty, exalted, mountaineer" or "(a) light, enlightener" (or an uncertain Egyptian origin); Jesus was "the light". Jesus doesn't leave our hearts; the ark stays in the temple all the time, the high priest comes and goes (and only once a year). The golden Ark was a counterpart of the Golden Calf. The calf could be Apis/Hapi/Serapis who is similar to Abel and Jesus. Some said Afikoman could mean "Hapi is found" The shekinah or kabod (dove/Jonah?) was above the mercy seat which means the ark cant be God on one hand, but can be associated with the presence of God on other hand (and Jesus was the only begotten presence of God on earth ever). The only physical presence of God on earth is the son of God (Emmanuel "god with us"). "No one has seen the Father except the Son who came down". "He who has seen Me has seen that Father". I agree the Ark is associated with presence of God. It was also golden etc. The ark can only be either the Godhead/Trinity,or Father, or Son, or Spirit. It cant just be Mary or a bishop or the Cross etc. Jesus kept the law. He said "he who loves me keeps my commandments". We cant save ourselves just by keeping that law (compare Cain, compare the sailors in Jonah 1). Jesus fulfilled the law. He is the Word (which includes to Torah/Law). In the Bible skip code, Yeshua in Torah "points to Leviticus / the Law". He writes the law in our hearts. The first tablet(s) were broken. "The law will go forth from Zion" (Davids city)? "The interpreter of the law" in DSS. Jesus said he is the manna from heaven. ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |
Posted By: Sharrukin
Date Posted: 12-Oct-2018 at 00:16
| Interpretations and comparisons can be rather fluid and thus any of these can have a logic of their own. I therefore cannot fault you on some of your interpretations, in that they have a certain logic of their own. It seems however that at least on two points we can agree - that Jesus is the High Priest that the ark may represent the Presence of God. This is as far as I can go based on the biblical evidence. But, because these other interpretations of yours can have a logic of its own, these must be relegated to the realm of the subjective or the mystical and not be used to draw historical conclusions. The first physical ark is no more and will not be remembered or replaced. It was merely the "copy" of the 'original" heavenly ark which is eternal. |
Posted By: Arthur-Robin
Date Posted: 13-Oct-2018 at 18:45
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ok thanks we/i shall leave it at that. The only things i will just say are: It always frustrates me that no matter how/what stark evidences i find/give (in many topics) that people always find some unfair way to dismiss/deny. One day things will be proven but i never seem o be able to give hefty enough quality & quantity proof that cant be denied (though i do have pretty stark evidences for quite a few topics/theses). It didnt necessarily say/mean copy of heavenly ark, it said copy of reality/truth. ("As above so below". "Heaven" is like the greater real world.) Moses as type of Jesus: https://iwillnotbeassimilated.blogspot.com/2018/10/people-in-old-testament-of-bible-who.html Joseph as type of Jesus: https://iwillnotbeassimilated.blogspot.com/2018/10/joseph-and-jesus.html Some of our bible history discoveries are posted in this facebook group/page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/948304318669811/ ------------- NZ's mandatory fluoridation is not fair because it only forces it on the disadvantaged/some and not on the advantaged/everyone. |