Hypocrisy of Freedom of Speech
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Topic: Hypocrisy of Freedom of Speech
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Subject: Hypocrisy of Freedom of Speech
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 13:54
How is Freedom of Speech used; well, its very subjective.
Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoonsThis article was first published on http://media.guardian.co.uk/ - guardian.co.uk on Monday February 06 2006. It was last updated at 08:38 on February 07 2006. Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today. The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny. In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten. Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them." MORE: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/feb/06/pressandpublishing.politics - http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2006/feb/06/pressandpublishing.politics ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Replies:
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 14:06
| You're title is wrong; it should read "Hypocrisy of Jyllandsposten". |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 14:18
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No, because Jyllands was not neccessarily the editor or supporter of the cause, as the whole nation and even Western Europe backed their cartoons.
Neccessarily equating the Freedom of Speech clause, used when the ruling party wants. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 14:33
The state didn't back the cartoons, they backed their right to publish them. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 14:42
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The state backed their own backsides. Over here the Danish embassy was falling over itself to condemn Jutland Post, yet in Western Capitals the officals were supporting them. It was hypocracy of the highest order. They clearly did not have the courage of their convictions. ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 15:14
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I think Styrbiorn is right. Besides that, who says Freedom of Speech is about being balanced and kind to others? The are Muslims who talk out against the country they are in with insults for not joining Islam, and they desecrate the said nations flag, atleast one image of this always comes to mind http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HO74GwUTZj4
We allowed these idiots to say what they'd like to. The flag means alot to Americans, bothers me a whole lot seeing that video. But no one attacked them or violently protested them, why, because we allow them that right thats why. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 20:06
What activist or protester conglomerate protesting issue 1, 2, or 3 has not burned an American flag. That flag means a lot to Americans sounds almost like you divide Muslim and American into two separate categories. Mind you that even one of George Bush's primary contributors in his presidential campaign was a Muslim family who call themselves American, are Republican, are practicing Muslims, etc... Now as far as the flag it most likely means something to them, too. The thing is that flag burning has happened numerous times before and culprits being "born" Americans, white, etc... so if they were the precedent and these are doing so now it is not a novelty. Nor are Muslims the only one doing it nor is this incident going to be stopped nor is it likely that some other protester or group won't do it. As far as the response in Denmark, there are a lot of people that get riled up and then use any offence imaginable in order to instigate some sort of reaction or to gain attention or to show visual of being pissed off. That is a norm for masses. Not to say that there were not more moderate and reasonable protesters and protests as well. It does not surprise me if this news report is real. The cartoons were clearly printed for one purpose only to insult and piss off. The cartoonists knew what the consequences were and what they were doing. Yes Freedom of speech should go both ways then, too. And Muslims would not have been happy about defiling Jesus either in cartoons. A humorous image may not have had as much backlash, but the Prophet with a bomb replacing a turban with generic Arabic lettering... you don't have to be a rocket scientist to know that the editor and the cartoonist did know what is going on and that its meant to offend. ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:18
Look: The intense over-reaction in the Muslim world to a few freaking cartoons has terrified this newspaper into doing anything remotely controversial ever again. If they released this, they would have extremists at home and abroad willing to kill them. There are nutjobs like that out there. Besides, freedom of speech is merely the freedom to be wrong, not to do wrong. ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:36
My point was that anyone is capable of one sided insults and they can pretend to be fair or not. In this case I showed a extreme demistration of a Muslim Radical group taking full benefit of the rights we give them and they know it as they mention it. So it works both ways.
So whether Muslims are Americans or not isn't an issue with me at all or one I'm discussing.
I was just following the subject of this discussion.
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 29-Feb-2008 at 21:45
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Here's an update on the intentions of the movement behind the Danish cartoonist incident. ------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 00:16
 Very well put. Unfortunately nowadays some would use Freedom of Speech as an excuse to suppress other human rights. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 00:36
like? ------------- |
Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 01:43
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Just a few pointers...
- I have learned a number of things through the years here on AE, and one of them keeps amazing me. No matter how much it is discussed, only a few, in fact maybe only one Muslim here actually knows what the concept of free speech and expression involves - and that is indeed very sad.
- After a break from AE, I came back when the discussion in the +60 pages thread about the Danish cartoons had calmed down. It was obvious that NOONE (Muslim or not) in that thread actually knew what happened and why it happened, and apparently that hasn't changed.
Before we glorify everything related to muslims and push blame on everyone else, we should read a little about whats going on outside our own little bubble.
The way radical muslims (and other troublemakers with muslim background) take advantage of spreading fear in order to force western authorities to bend to their demands is appaling. I have been a strong defender of the rights of our muslims immigrants, but they make it very hard for me and others like me, to keep that up.
Just a few things from the last month:
Threats of murder, +100 incidents of arsen, riots etc. And maybe the worst part is - well integrated Muslims don't dare to speak up against it - they are too scared.
I can't blame other Danes and Scandinavians who want the troublemakers out, the ones who think that only Islam is to be obeyed, not the laws of the country. And even if they are convicted of a crime (murder threat), they instantly cry for their human rights to avoid being expelled. Then suddenly, the western laws and values are fine. Who said hypocrits?
@Sparten
If I had been the Danish ambassador in Pakistan during that time, I would also have condemed the cartoons..... to stay alive.
About burning flags:
The US flag and the Danish flag are equally sacred to Americans and Danes as a picture of Muhammad is to Muslims. But we don't start murdering Muslims or the Mullahs who ignited the protests because of this. Those protests which mostly was a mean to lessen local frustration. A little simplifyed:
"As a Muslim and citizen here, you cannot protest about the rotten conditions here, but now there is a cause you can use for an excuse to let some steam out - go out and burn some flags and buildings"
I could go on along these lines for the rest of the page, and I know this post is very "unlike" me - but the hypocrisy has to stop - also Muslim hypocrisy.
~ Northman
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Posted By: Brian J Checco
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:03
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I agree with Northman. We all know the West is hypocritical; it happens, deal with it, get over it. But to pretend that practitioners of Islam are absolutely incapable of hypocrisy is just plain mis-guided, and there certainly have been cases of advocates of Sharia and such using the double-standards of hypocrisy and Western guilt to subvert the systems of the Western governments under which they live. Sometimes, you just gotta deal with the realities on the ground- not the idealized conception of the world the way you want it to be.
------------- My Name is Eli Manning. Ponce owns my soul. |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:35
They decided not to post the Jesus cartoons in 2003 because of what it meant. They posted the Muhammad cartoons after 3 years, because of what it meant. And it was no over reaction. And if done again, there will probable be more unrest and economic backlashes against Denmark. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 02:43
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In regards to Northman and Brian's posts. This is off tangent; in the 1700s French Empire and British Empire pushed the Ottoman Empire to allow them (foreign powers) be "representatives" of the Nasranis (Nazaratheans = Christians) in the Sublime Porte. The funny thing is that a sovereign imperial power was being told by its own Orthodox Greeks and Protestant/Catholic Christians how and what political control minority religion is to have, even if such consent oversteps the boundaries of rules and regulations set for the common majority (Muslims). In 2000s, same thing is happening over the Christian heartlands. And when Muslims dont get what they want, you have Paris burning and London protesting. History repeats itself indeed. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 04:07
Safety
I'm not interested in what is going on outside my bubble. I'm interested in why a Danish paper had to come over to my bubble and start picking fights. Why should I care what small-time criminals 10,000 km away do? That's the bottom line. If a man from X murdered a man from Y. It is not ok for Y to turn X into a nuclear crator. It is never ok to do what that paper did, and there are no mitigating circumstances. Besides, I'm untrusting enough about Quality of Life in central Europe that I suspect that these "troublemakers" probably have a fairly good point, and probably are having their statements grossly misrepresented (probably deliberately)
No they really aren't. The reaction should be enough to prove that. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 04:30
Flag burning has happened and will happened because we allow it. Whether we like it or not. Yes that is very true. Nevertheless, it is a part of freedom of speech isn't it, the cartoons were covered under freedom of speech yes, insensitive for all they were they were still under that clause just like Santa and Jesus killing each other on South Park... Groups get riled up, mobs are easy to insinuate, which leads to a lot of property damage and rather uncivil behavior no matter the setting. As far as their refusal to actually publish those with that "offend" clause... does not take much pondering to see that a double standard. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 04:37
I disagree... A national flag and a turban bomb on a world religion's prophet is not exactly the same thing. The flag represents the nation, not a religion, nor a transnational movement or body of believers. It repersents a conglomerate of citizens. An American flag represents that same muslim that gets pissed off at that Danish cartoon, as much as the local bible study leader, or the atheist on the next block, etc... Now that muslim can also be pissed of that flag burning, too... and all of the three respective examples may also find it abhorring, but a part of freedom of speech just like the cartoon. They may also think that an insinuating cartoon isn't exactly the greatest example of freedom of speech either. And this to them definetly doesn't excuse the barbaric burnings of buildings and death threats either. ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 04:49
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 05:19
Yes, and I haven't seen anyone mention it in this thread either. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 05:23
Because Person A living in Suburbia, USA did nothing to Person B and C several thousand miles across the ocean, etc... ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 05:58
..all that time ago during that huge debate on the danish cartoons, i found some very bigoted anti-semitic cartoons that are quite common in a Egyptian tabloid and other papers in the M/E. This is a religious group being vilified repeatably and on a scale much bigger than Denmark, yet the protests i see from the Muslim side is not about bigotry per se, really it was about anything that steps on their sensitivities. Hypocrisy is something both sides can share. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:04
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I agree that both can share that habit. My quarrel is not with the minority of the idiots who insinuate such reactions, nor with the idiots that use these insinuations in order to exact a barbaric reaction. Both those exist. However, the choice to post that, and not the other is an oxymoron. My example showed that both could mean a great amount to one person, and vice versa. ------------- |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:24
It was not overreaction? It was not overreaction?!?
In my several years on this forum, I have never been as disgusted as I was when I read this. People died, Mughaal; people died! And all over something as silly as a cartoon. I suppose the reaction to the Roman Pope's quotation of a Byzantine emperor was also "no overreaction" -- a reaction that involved further reprisals against Christians, the burning of several of our Orthodox churches, the death of a nun, and many, many threats of further violence. Was this, too, "no overreaction"? What, may I ask, would be an overreaction?
I find the Danish cartoons offensive, not as a Muslim, but as a Christian who believes that offending people to no purpose serves no purpose. But don't you dare sit there and casually dismiss the murders, the threats, the riots, and all of the other nonsense that went on in the Muslim World, in light of those cartoons, as "no overreaction". You should be absolutely ashamed of yourself.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:40
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If Europe was under the belief that these immigrants that dont share any cultural affinity with Greco-Roman culture will just put up with such harrasment, they are wrong. Austria arrests a prominent Holocaust denier, because Holocaust denial stirs up bad feelings. Maybe they need to think about what they are doing when they print and reprint idiot cartoons. Not everyone shares the same lack of regard and disdain for their religion.
Maybe Europe, Canada and America should be more careful of who they let in immigration as well. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 06:57
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Okay Mughaal, enough with the Euro-bashing. And I mean it. ------------- |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:10
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Always the same old story, if someone feels insultaded( i'm sorry to say this are actually people with specious religios motivations, no matter islamic or what else), he/she complains to cut the freedom of thinking and speaking in one way but claim this right for him/herself on the other side.
To be honest, i'm sick of this behaviour.
I myself for example will have some problems if a nazi or a fascist claims the freedom of speech but if i read or hear his crap, i'm certain this is the best way to disqualify themselves.
Aplomb and calmness are needed, but the belief and the speeches of some religious leader are bluring obviously many brains.
This behaviour is indeed nonrestricted to islamic countries but i do have the feeling that is used to detract from major social and other problems.
To have a concept of the enemy is much easier and cheaper than to change the true problems of a country.
------------- 
http://imageshack.us"> 
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:10
Firstly Northman with all due respect the ambassador was in no danger, the life of his family and his embassy staffers and the property of his embassy was and is the reponsibility of the GOP. Are you saying that if he had not condemed the cartoons he would have been killed by the GOP or that GOP would not have protected him? I live 5 mins from the Embassy of Denmark and I have never seen even at the height of the controversy any attempt by anyone to threaten the Danes. The man clearly did not have the courage of his convictions.
Secondly I can counteract your little generalisation about AE Muslim forumers with one of my own, i.e europeans living in highly hetrogenous bubble are genarally immune from the consequences of their actions. I live in a highly versatile country where the language and culture changes every 10 miles, and while freedom of speech is all well and good, peace and good relations with other communities are far more important, and if for harmony freedom of speech muct be sacrifised then so be it. This dose not mean that I support the actions of the protestors at all, but and this is the important part I am rather amused that Jutlands Post and the Government of Denmark did forsee what the consequences would be and still acted as they did. You might find the reactions of other silly, I know I often do in many senarios, but the fact of their reactions is far more important that the sillyness of them ------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:19
While I agree with you completely Ako, I want to point out that in the places that the deaths occured; deaths in protests, particularly political protests, are a very common occurance. I don't know how many people actually died, but considering how many people are killed on a day-to-day basis for no real reason other than being in the wrong place at the wrong time I would be surprised if they were numerically significant. If you deliberately went out to protest then you would know the risks. While this may sound harsh to the western reader, it is unfortunately true, and if we are to consider an event 'major' or 'minor' we must consider it in the day to day situation of that place. People die, in Denmark one death is a incident, in Pakistan one death isn't worth reporting. ------------- |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:19
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After rereading my comment, Akoulothos, I understand the misconception of my comment.
The people who killed, vandalized and assaulted were dumb to begin with. They come from the lower, disfranchised parts of society. But I support an economic backlash. I would definitely support if Denmark went without oil by the arab countries for months.
But I dont support killing and murdering randomly. Even the druggy director, Van Gough should have been given jail time like that British Holocaust Denier dude who got 3 years.
Also, people are dying in Iraq. 13 year old Iraqi girls are embracing a life of Whoredom to feed their 7 year old brothers. Keep your panties on. Death is part of life.
Perhaps the greatest lesson learned are humans are biased. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:26
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Sparten, my friend, many ignorance and dissacords on both sides accompany the relations of the western and islamic world.
The flame of hate will burn as long as there are no real attemps to understand eachother,
to learn from eachother and to respect different opinions. A -------------
http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 07:33
But the life as well. As long as we focus in supporting the life on earth we must not accept the death.....
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http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 12:41
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Edited by me due to my mix up on the publishing dates.
Mughaal,
This isn't a big deal! I've seen and heard a whole lot worse (Much, much more worse!!), regarding Jesus and artistic expression and interpretations here in the west. That's putting it mildly too!
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 12:42
But it are not the Danes who are violating that right.
One of the wisest things said so far. The marketplace of ideas: if you allow eveything to say what they want, people will eventually sort out the truth themselves. ------------- |
Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 13:02
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Again I'm left in total awe by the apparent ignorance by some members here, - or could it be, that these members are keeping up their stance against better knowledge? I'm not sure why I bother to enlighten the apparent bewildered - but here goes... First off Comparing these two totally unrelated incidents and relate them to what is double standards or not, can only serve to demonstrate ignorance of facts or judgement against better knowledge. I'm running out of time - I'll be back!
~ Northman ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 13:14
No, they posted it not thinking that an entire part of the world would rise up in furious anger. To someone like me, or any other thinking person in the west, we simply cannot get our heads around how angry you got, why you got so angry, and most importantly how the hell you possibly justified wanting to 'behead cartoonists'. Do these people speak in your name? Where were the 'not in my name' protests in the Islamic world we all wanted to see. Why do you let these uneducated, immature, sadistic idiots speak on your behalf?  ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 15:03
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I take it sarcasm is in short supply in the REpublic of Ireland? ------------- |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 15:05
It shouldn't matter enough where destroying property and talking about harming others is the reaction given because one small group of people used the rights given to them to insult.
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 15:29
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Frankly, with my own cultural perspective, I see the reaction to the cartoons as a severe sign of weakness. And of course when we feel most vulnerable our reactions tend to be amplified to such degrees.
Perhaps, this represents a vector from which to focus an enormous amount of built-up frustration.... it's way easier to blame others than it is to look at ourselves.
------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 15:37
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Europe needs to understand it lives in a world with other people. And if one man is sent to jail because he denies history, this asshole dead director should have been given the same 3 years.
Im sorry, but not everyone has the same disregard and disdain for their religion. Thats pretty much a European thing. We have laws against such shit.
My freedom of speech, Northman, goes as far as people coming up to my face and calling me a camel f**ker. I dont really think id care. But when you attack the deepest belief system of mine, it will piss me off.
And different people have different levels of care for their own cultural institutions. Your declaring war on these people by insulting them as so.
Again, I ask, why are these men sent to jail for denying the holocaust?
  But this goof isnt?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:TheoVanGogh.jpg">
 Im not saying to kill him, Im saying you need to get your laws in order - because your favoring one group over another. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 15:57
Aye, the deaths in the cartoon incident -- at least as far as I know -- occurred as a result of the protests, although there were actual murders associated with the reaction to the Pope's comments. Anyway, one death over this nonsense would have been one death too many. While I agree that the impact of the death on public perception is not the same as it would be in the West, I believe that you would agree with me that the value of each individual life is the same across the world, and that the loss of a life in the Middle East is just as disturbing as the loss of life elsewhere.
You open your posts up to "misconceptions" and misunderstandings when you so casually dismiss human dignity in light of your ideology. That said, I am glad to see a bit of concern demonstrated in this post.
That is within the rights of the Arab countries to get together and do. I doubt they would -- for they are as interested in making money as everyone else -- but it would certainly be a principled position to take.
Well, first, you're once again being insulting to a person who has recently died to no end. It really reminds me of the attitude of Theo van Gogh's assasin, when speaking to Theo's mother: "I don't feel your pain. I don't have any sympathy for you. I can't feel for you because I think you're a non-believer."
As for jail-time, there is absolutely no reason Theo van Gogh should have been sent to jail, period. For the record, I also think the laws against holocaust denying in some European countries are a violation of the principle of freedom of speech.
No, the greatest lesson to be learned here is that Mughaal is biased.
 And when did the conversation shift to Iraq? Of course the deaths there are a tragedy as well. Honestly, Mughaal, try to keep your head on while you post. Just because death is part of life doesn't mean that we have to place less value on each individual who dies.-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 16:17
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AH, how some things keep on going on. First off I may add folks that to each their own. Nobody has the high road when an injustice is done. We should seek the opposite. Moslems have a right to feel upset with another planned attack at their core. A core that doesn't like to feel ridiculed. However, some moslems will use western means to an end and then take away rights they once previously owned. The western press needs to understand the full burden of responsibility for insults it chooses to publish for the sake of "freedom of Speech".. Media of any stripe tends to step up fear mongering with insecurity. Afterall the editors have their own issues. It's hard to understand one another when either side avoids placing their best foot forward. Slinging mud is easy. Getting to have decent discussions is not. ------------- |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 16:36
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I have the right to my opinion as a muslim has. I can say Mohammed was a butcher, as a Muslim can say Jesus was a sissy. The problem does not lie in the opinion. Whether i say it openly or not, my opinion is the same. What we learn in democracy is to hold the limits, the balance between us and the others. If you do not like the opinion of a specific person, do not hang out with him. If you do not like the cartoons of a newspaper, do not buy that bloody newspaper.The same if the newspaper does sth wrong. Simple as that. You do not have to kill and threaten and whine about it. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 16:45
Is such a crap worth to answer ? Or is just another try to challenge my patience?
Mughaal i even have sympathies for those who were discriminated when Allah parted brain to all beings. In as much you may say what ever you want, you can't even confirm your mental modesty further more.
btw: Trust in Allah, but tie your camel -------------
http://imageshack.us">
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Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 16:50
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Oh, I totally agree with you there Spartakus. Everyone is entitled to their opinions. Just as they are for the repruscussions of publishing provoking or graphic material. In the US we have caricatures of most everything, though I don't see how a bomb toting Muhammed serves any purpose other than to ruffle some feathers. You also have sage advice about not buying the offensive material either. But deep down one can interpret opinions, pictures and what not. Those intentions tend to speak a thousand and one words. More than the picture's thousand.
Of course the ability to publish any material is one of the priviledges of free societies. We always hold that dear. We would never want somebody to threaten that and take it away. Yet insecure socieites flaunt it for the sake of proving a point. A perceived threat. Yes, even in a predominantly moslem counrty like Turkey this discussion is more pervasive and important then ever. Maybe more so than Denmark. Because the perceived threat to "freedom of speech" is current and more serious due to landmark attempts at changing the constitution there by a strongly religiously backed government. One that is showing unsecular tendencies everyday. It has to do with taking way rights. Which is totally wrong. As for the cartoons in Denamrk I don't know what rights were taken away. Do you? ------------- |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 17:08
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Mughaal, I hope your happy in your little loop where no-one is allowed to criticise what you believe. The men who were put in jail for denying the holocaust received a great wrong. There is no logical justification for banging them up, and I completely reject it. You'll find that when you ask most Europeans, they'll reject banging someone up simply because of what you believe. The Danish cartoonists didn't know what they were getting themselves into. No-one thought Muslims would get so pissed off, and to be honest, Europeans still don't understand what you are so pissed off about. So someone in a country FAR FAR AWAY drew a cartoon of Muhammad. Get a life, and get out of mine. P.S- Spartan; That is a genuine picture, with a genuine London protester. He had to apologise for it the next day. 'Behead Cartoonists' became a ready phrase on talk shows for the next few weeks as we tried to understand what the hell really went on. I have to admit, I don't feel sorry for Muslims over this, and neither do I feel hurt that their feelings where hurt over a f**king cartoon. The people who try to express empathy with them are forgetting one thing. It was a f**king cartoon. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 17:17
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For all those who are using this an excuse to put forward your prejudices, please be advised that the staff is aware of this and we are not as divided as you may think esp on the issue of forum moderation. ------------- |
Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 17:33
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Please read your PM Parnell
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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 17:59
Interpreting and criticizing is one thing, demanding not to be published is another.
There are perceived threats and there will always be. But this is irrelevant to some drawings published in a Danish Newspaper which neither i, nor you can actually read.In fact, if this whole chaos never had come up, i would not even be aware of their existence. I honestly believe that a few cartoons cannot be a threat to a religion of more than 1.000.000.000 believers and 1600 years of tradition. It's stupidity at it's greatest extent. We are clearly judging intentions here. In that, we are no different than the Middle Ages. What we need to do is find solid proof, and then try to find the reason behind it. Even if we find it , what we can actually do is criticizing it or even go to court against it. But we have no right to attack an entire country, burn flags, threaten to kill. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:17
|
To call the conditions in your country peaceful and good relations, is lightyears apart from my perception of the situation in Pakistan. Being willing or forced to sacrifice human rights for such a peace - or any reason for that matter, is not an option in my book. It reminds me of an old story of a people living behind a door and all anyone ever heard from them was a soft cosy mumble through the door. "They seem and sounds to be happy", a man said, and the door was opened. Behind the door, people were standing chin-high in manure and the soft mumble was a chant from each one of them..... Don't make waves - don't make waves.... We could say, they were in full harmony as well.
Huh? I didn't know Jyllandsposten came all the way over to Oz - or actually had a a printing facility out of Denmark??? - oh silly me, thats right, they didn't have to. It was Muslim Imams and Mullahs who spread the happy news, making sure the whole world got to see them, plus a few much worse fake ones. If you HAD been interested in things outside your bubble, you might actually have learned the facts. Maybe your bubble is a PNP bubble - a retifying mirror - only allowing you to see from one side?
Lets assume it wasn't ok - but even so - was the reaction OK, Omar? Then what reaction would be ok for us to take against immigrants who plan to murder people, attacking our democracy, trying to install fear and comitting arsen? You even try to justify what they do Omar, probably not because you think its right what they do, but merely because they are Muslims.
~ Northman ------------- |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:20
|
How far these freedoms go are a matter of human perception and bias.
When the cartoonists realized how upset the Muslims were, they should have apologized, not reprinted the cartoons in the name of "freedom"; and thats my final point.
To the person who said that the Post didnt think these cartoons would make a big impact, they are dead stupid. If they were not going to humiliate Jesus, why did they not have the same standards for Muhammad?
It takes a buffoon to realize this war in Iraq is wrong, but Bush isnt being tried in the Hague for war crimes for oil.
God forbid you deny the Holocaust though! ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:23
If they did not violate any law of their country, they are not obligated to do so and certainly nobody can oblige them to do it. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:24
|
I would like to apologise for posting the Muhammad cartoons earlier. That was out of order and I was in the heat of the moment. My position still stands however, and I only wish everyone got the chance to see the image - to actually understand how ridiculous the reaction was relative to the 'crime'. And in regards to supposed prejudices been aired, then yes, you are right. I am prejudiced against extremists who believe its ok to riot, threaten execution and kill people IN THE NAME OF A CARTOON. If anyone is trying to hint that I am in some way prejudiced against the Islamic religion then I pity their ignorance. And thats all I have to say. ------------- |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:25
|
And thats how policies are formed my friend. It was legal in the USA to own slaves until a certain point in time. It was also "okay" to have Jim Crow Laws, until the Civil Rights Uprising. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:29
Well, while you pose a question you pose it in the wrong context. It's not the cartoons the problem, but the Law that permits it's publication. Instead of criticizing the exact Law, which i am sure you know shit off, you criticize people who act in it's context. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:34
|
Akoulothos - I dont care hes dead. Theres a shitload of dead everywhere. I personally dont care for him nor did he touch me in anyway greater or lesser than say the dead people in Congo Civil War. Ulrich - Take Spartakus's advice; If you dont like it move on to the next post. Theres no reason to make rhetorical comments. Parnell - I enjoy living in my loop; as do the Europeans who still dont understand what Muslims are mad about. Europeans are a people who find "Human Rights" as a sacred thing. Muslims are a people who find Islam and Muhammad a sacred thing. Imagine that.
Moreover, I understand Muslims take the rights that are beneficial to them and disregard other rights. It is wrong. But then I cant see the difference in the Europeans picking and choosing what is freedom of speech and what isnt; and how the Muslims pick and choose how to and when to apply their Rights.
For the final question: Was the reaction Okay? I dont concern myself with okay; I concern myself with realpolitik. It was expected. It was to happen, and Europes all the stupider in thinking they can put their views on other people.
As they say, all is well in love and war. And if Europe wants to step on other people's toes, expect a backlash. Youd be better off, like I said before, insulting King Fahd. Or Musharraf, or Sukarno, or King Muhammad of Morocco.
 Bravo! Keep acting like idiots, and keep immigrating people who dont share your beliefs and culture, and see whats coming next. I wait for Geet Wilders upcoming Anti-Islam movie. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:37
Hell no. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:38
Actually, I was thinking more along the lines of Society, not Law. For a nation that proclaimed itself the first Democracy, it took a long time for Society to understand what that meant, and exactly how much they would have to lose and undo to be truly democratic. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:39
Wish you shared the same opinion when it comes to invasion for oil. 650,000 - 1,000,000 people dead. Suddenly human rights dont matter.
Boo hoo, an artist is dead.
Bah! One thing ive learned in history is might is right and the top dawg makes the rules. So while today abortion may be okay, tomorrow it may not be. While yesterday it was okay to treat others like third class humans, today it isnt.
While today it was okay to make caricatures of holy symbols........tomorrow? ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:40
But you did concern yourself with whether or not it was an overreaction, and it most definitely was. If you do not care that he is dead, I don't see how you can claim to have any respect for human life. Qualify your remarks if you do not wish to seem harsh. As for the people of the Congo Civil War: Well, do you care about them? Whose life do you care about, Mughaal? And if you instruct Ulrich to take Spartakus' advice, then kindly do so yourself, and stop spouting your lack of concern for human dignity. You started this topic to provoke a reaction. Well, you got one; and hopefully you will use this opportunity to examine whether your lack of concern for your fellow man matches up with the tenets of your religion. What would your prophet say if he saw you tacitly approving of a man being shot in the street?
-Akolouthos
EDIT: I went ahead and included your remarks so that everyone can see how utterly reprehensible they are.
|
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:42
First of all, there is no such thing as truly democratic. It's rubbish. Secondly, just because a newspaper publishes sth which some of the citizens find it insulting, it's a problem of the entire society? That's a huge generalization of a man who hardly knows the society he criticizes. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:45
Invasion for oil is irrelevant with the publishing of a cartoon in an unknown newspaper in some part of Europe. Not totally, but hugely irrelevant. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:49
But you see Mughaal, it wasn't the cartoonists who was resposible for the fame of the cartoons.
Jyllandsposten was responsible for publishing them Sept. 30, 2005 to a little less than 200.000 subscribers in Denmark. Noone gave it a second thought.
The Danish Imams and Mullahs in the Muslim world were responsible for publishing them to billions of people all over the world in Jan. 2006.
Jyllandposten did apologize - the Imams never did.
Instead they had Muslim Governments demanding apologies from the Danish Government, and to have the newspaper punished??!!
Ignorance again - according to Danish law, the Government have no say in what is printed in a newspaper - we have a FREE press, but that is obviously an unknown concept to Muslims.
~ Northman
------------- |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2008 at 18:49
|
Im sorry, Akolothous, but I dont take religion seriously. It doesnt really work or answer anything for me. I know I created some threads about Islamic Prophecies and such, but only to get a response from other people. I was raised in an Islamic household, so I am aware about Islam more than others. I know Muslims and Islam are in the international limelight both in West, East, and North, South. But I dont know if Muslims are supposed to be the best people, why they are worse than the Christians, Atheists or Hindus in their respect for others and in human dignity.
And I dont care about those people in Congo and I dont care about Darfur and I dont care about Iraq. I care about me, my family, and thats it. Because in this world, its okay to kill others for their natural resources; infact you can form a coalition for a war of nothing.
Does anyone know why Canada, S Korea, USA, Britain, Poland, Turkey and others are in Iraq? For what cause?
It doesnt matter. They are there because they want to be. And thats damn fine with me.
I recognize bias and partiallity. And I understand my parents and extended family are Muslims. And I think its stupid to make caricatures that you know will incite others just to get a kick out of it. Theres alot of things you can be free about, but yelling: "FIRE!!!!!" in a crowded auditorium is not one of them.
And I dont care about a dead Danish artist - I dont even like wierd European art to begin with. Nor have I heard of him. Nor do I care to. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 11:29
And what's more stupid, to draw insulting cartoons or to take them seriously?
I have a friend who has blond hair. I tell her jokes with blondes. Do you think she consider this insulting?
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Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 06-Mar-2008 at 13:15
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OK Mughaal, we've allowed you to spread this drivel for too long. What is your beef? That a few free people made a cartoon mocking someone elses prophet? Why would you care what a newspaper in Denmark does, if as you say you don't care about anything or anyone outside your immediate family?
What exactly do you want? To get the people of Europe to behave according to how you would like them to? Thats not going to happen unless we adopt some of the fascist tendencies many Arab countries resort to. And we don't want that. You seem to be happy living in a hellhole where you can't say what you think. Thats fine. Just don't make the rest of us who are quite happy with our decadence go down the sewer with you. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 00:33
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He isn't an Arab. ------------- |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 01:07
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Nah, some points to understand here:
1. Everything is relative.
2. Dont be a stupid by inviting people who dont share your values into your land.
3. Muslims are causing domestic problems in the heart of Europe from inside. History is repeating itself and the Leaders need to learn from History to realize what to do next. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 09:13
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2. Dont be a stupid by inviting people who dont share your values into your land.
Pardon me? who invited you here?( as you aware, You are not sharing majority of allempire members idea.)
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Posted By: Cezar
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 11:21
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Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2008 at 11:28
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No, we didn't invite you anywere. You came because our immigration systems have been quite Liberal. Apart from a few Asian and Arab Doctors and Nurses, or Carribeans (to Britain) after the war to work in the public transport system) few immigrants were actually 'invited' or 'encouraged' to come over. And you didn't answer any of the questions above. If you continue to be this obtuse I'll have to remember to ignore you in future threads.
------------- |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 18:49
|
Heres another spin to it.
Whether or not you were invited doesnt matter. Its about the will of people.
This just came to me as I read Parnell's post and realized that the Empires of the past imposed themselves upon others, as did the barbarians of the past impose themselves on their conquerors in turn.
------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 18:56
Akoulothos
Dont even attempt to stand upon the higher morale ground whilst Europe supports the American Empire in their war for oil. 1,000,000 have died directly or indirectly. 13 yr old Iraqi girls are whoring themselves to feed their families. Saddam was supported by America when he was of interest, and 8 years later not supported. Same thing with democracy.
So dont act like somehow its okay to kill for certain things you find important but everyone else is wrong. The Muslims find it important to not defame their prophet. The Europeans find it important to not let Holocaust deniers walk free.
As if oil or history is more important to punish or kill for then dignity.
When the Europeans say "If you want to immigrate here, you must follow our terms" I doubt most Muslims understood that to mean Europeans enjoy ridiculing others because it is a staple of their freedom of expression.
I mean I dont mind that idiot who walks around nude on a beach and glorifies himself as an evovled monkey. I really dont. Especially when its a hot girl. But I do have a problem with people who keep sticking needles under my skin and when I finally smack them they ask why and label me as less among them (my rights, choices, way of life is less than theirs).
------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 18:58
Yes please do. Your posts get in the way of my threads. My threads are challenging for people who cant think outside of their bubbles. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 19:03
Europeans shold respect my dignity as a person and not lie to my face about freedom of expression. Europeans, if they preach freedom and human rights, need to understand my human rights. Dont lie to me because its insulting. Dont tell me your for free expression when you arrest people who deny history. Dont tell me your for freedom of expression when its a crime to make fun of the monarchs in caricatures. Can I burn your flag? Its a freedom of expression.
To criticize Muhammad has been done in the past by historians. To be outright provocative over and over again is imbecilic, and your like the stupid turd who acts/behaves like an arrogant sack of nuts and is just asking for a punch in the face.
My freedom of expression comes in the form of a fist if yours comes in the form of acting like a twit.
Now I think freedom of expression is great. But everything has limits. EVERYTHING. Food is for nourishment, but dont feed yourself to the point you become lethargic and cant get anything done.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also, I find history exciting, so I care about this topic. I also use history to understand humans; sociological study through history. I dont care much for memorizing names and dates as much as I care for the evolution of culture, how they affect behaviour and outcomes of circumstances. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 19:07
Mughaal,
I've had just about enough of youyr nonsense. Specifically, in this post:
To be outright provocative over and over again is imbecilic, and your like the stupid turd who acts/behaves like an arrogant sack of nuts and is just asking for a punch in the face.
My freedom of expression comes in the form of a fist if yours comes in the form of acting like a twit. You will learn to treat other members with respect, or you will leave. The choice is yours.
-Akolouthos
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Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 19:10
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It was rhetorical my Greek friend. I didnt mean you in particular. Although I wonder how thats the only thing youve managed to select and highlight from my post........ ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 19:15
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It does not matter if you were referring to me, or to Parnell, or to any other member. You will not threaten others on this forum, and you will not treat others with contempt. You need to re-read the CoC.
-Akolouthos
|
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 19:18
Stop preventing Freedom of Speech.  Why cant I say what I want? Are you going to burn me on a pyre if I dont stop? If you want to be a proficient man of liberal sciences, you need to understand the difference between a metaphor and a threat.
As Ive said, its rhetorical. Not personal to anyone. More of an analogy and less of a personal attack.
The Danish will learn to treat other humans with respect, or they will leave. The choice is theirs.
Tell you what, go complain about me to the other Moderators and Administers, and if they want, they can ban tell me to leave. Democracy.  ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 19:48
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Parnell wrote-
What exactly do you want? To get the people of Europe to behave according to how you would like them to? Thats not going to happen unless we adopt some of the fascist tendencies many Arab countries resort to. And we don't want that. You seem to be happy living in a hellhole where you can't say what you think. Thats fine. Just don't make the rest of us who are quite happy with our decadence go down the sewer with you.
Mughaal would like you to think that as it gives him some degree of credibility. Truth is he lives in Dallas US.
Personally I believe Mughaal is a fraud, a paper tiger if you will. Or as they say down in Dallas, All hat, no cattle. He gets his kicks out of stirring things up to no particular end, perhaps just as an excuse to insult anyone in his path and then go and hide behind "freedom of speech"
Tell you what, go complain about me to the other Moderators and Administers, and if they want, they can ban tell me to leave. Democracy.
He did, and your request is under discussion. We aim to please
 ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: HEROI
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 21:35
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Mughal is got a point.Lets not behave as if the cartoons were simply a freedom of expression blown out of all proportions by the Muslims or the media.It was not.
It was provocative,and it was insulting to Muslims if they feel that it was.
Now someone would say that if they feel insulted by our freedom of expression then thats their problem.Then clearly is the problem of those who exercised such freedom to face the consecuences.
Thats were responsibility comes in.
Is media allowed today to make Jews as stereotypes in caricatures?Yes it is.But does it do this over an dover again as a provocation backed up by freedom of expression?No it does not,because it is a matter of responsibility,and a fear of a Backlash.
Lets not have even more insulting or racist examples that media is allowed by law to do,but never does,simply because some issues are sensitive and they provoke backlash.
Actually i would be surprise if this cartoos would be acceptable by most Europian counries Media watch.
One such country that i would be surprise to publish such cartoons would be Britain.
Now bottom line is,should the Media have such rights ?I think yes
But should it exercise them for means of provocation? I think no. ------------- Me pune,me perpjekje. |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 21:59
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Muslim Clerics stewed it up. Mughaals answers here in this thread and his rather baffling conclusion that I support the imprisonment of a holocaust denier, or support the war in Iraq is unworthy of debate. Mughaal is a dangerous authoritarian who doesn't view people as individuals, but as groups. He refuses to regard me as an individual with independent opinions but as part of a wider pan-European, pan-Atlantic conspiracy. And I still don't think he has a clue what freedom of speech really means. ------------- |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 22:42
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I edited this comment. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 23:35
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Where are you getting this absolute rubbish that I think the dead of Iraq are unworthy of debate? I opposed the Iraq war from the start, and have opposed it every day since. I just don't understand what your whinging about. I mean, are you complainging about the cartoonists or the fact that the Danish government didn't CENSOR them? Having beef with the cartoons is perfectly legitimate. When you start burning effigies, demanding the execution of f**king cartoonists and start storming embassies, thats when you cross the line. ------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2008 at 23:56
You're right they don't draw Buddha with a bomb on his head, they just blow Buddha up. But I guess that's what passes for tolerance. Hypocrisy is rampant in all places. Mughaal, get off your high horse. Should the newspaper have published the Christ cartoon? That's up to the newspaper. Should the same newspaper have published the Mohammed cartoon? Again that is up to the newspaper. However if one is published (or not) so should the other one be. What you fail to realize though, is that the two cartoons were separated by three years. At a newspaper or any business much can happen in three years. In three years owners can change, editors can change, general political stances and affiliations can also change. All these things must be taken into account before you endeavor to lambast an entire continent for a cartoon. There is no excuse for threatening harm or actually harming somebody because the drew a picture that you didn't like. There are ways of combatting such cartoons, for instance a Islamic or opposition newspaper could print a cartoon of equal offensiveness (like a Christ cartoon). NEITHER ONE OF THESE CARTOONS SHOULD HAVE BEEN PUBLISHED, BUT ONE MUST ALSO RESPECT THE RIGHT TO PUBLISH SUCH CARTOONS. Any such imprisonment or harmful action taken against the publishers or cartoonists should not be condoned. It should also be noted that the media have a responsibility to be sensitive to what a given publication can make a specific population do. They, the media, however, are not responsible for the actions of a few bad apples. At some point personal responsibility has to come into the equation. If person A kills person B for making a cartoon that person A finds insulting, then person A should take responsibility for his/her actions and should be punished. The fact of the matter is that cartoons are just cartoons and if you immigrate to a country don't expect that country to tailor its customs to yours. Upon immigration the immigrant has to adopt the hosts customs not visa versa. You are doing nothing in your posts other than establishing how biased you are. You are in such a rage about this well then I pose this question to you. Would you be this upset about an anti-Semitic cartoon in Egypt, Syria, Saudi Arabia, Denmark, Germany, France, Russia, USA, or Britain? I doubt you would, I could be wrong though. |
Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 00:06
While I agree with you that violence is not justified -- as I have repeatedly noted in this thread -- I do not agree with your proposed response. The cartoons were infantile attempts to offend, with little to no redeeming value. I do not see how publishing infantile, offensive cartoons in response would benefit anyone.
-Akolouthos
|
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 00:12
| Akolouthos, that was just an off the cuff brainstorm of one possible way of combatting such offensive cartoons. It might seem infantile but it would allow a greater Islamic community to show a greater Christian community how offensive their (Christian) actions were. Of course there is another way to battle such cartoons and that is denounce them and show that they are greatly exaggerated stereotypes by not harming, rioting, and killing people. |
Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 00:24
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It isn't the first time, nor do I think it will be the last time I feel the need to enlighten members here on AE, that the way they portray the reasons for the cartoons are NOT the factual circumstances. I have a suspicion that some members only cares little about facts, or they chose to appear ignorant against better knowledge.
Here is an excerpt from a post I made 2 years ago, and in case you want to study the context in which it was written, http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=11133&PID=207192#207192 - you can find it here.
Quote from the post:
The story behind (as I suppose you might not have heard the full story):
A book-publisher here in Denmark (not the newspaper) couldnt find any artists willing to illustrate a book about muslims and the life of Muhammed. A book that was meant to enlighten etnic Danes of the background for 200.000 muslim immigrants and refugees living here. This was percieved as self-censorship - something not compatibel with freedom of speech. Then the newspaper in question, invited some newspaper-cartoonists to draw their perception of Muhammed in their normal "style", which of course was satiric and humorous. This was done to contradict the self-censorship - and of course to flash the flag for "Freedom of speech". Any known person have had their portrait shown in newspapers that way - from athletes and bishops to the queen, prime minister and the holy virgin. Satire is seen as something totally harmless - just meant to bring a smile on your face. Things were calm for months after this - noone gave it a second thought, but only until a delegation of Imams living here decided to take a tour around several muslim countries, handing out a binder with the cartoons PLUS extremely insulting pictures they randomly had picked up elsewhere, which had absolutely nothing to do with the cartoons. In the text they said that this was how Denmark and Danes looked upon the muslim world!! We all know what happened after this - action and reaction. End of Quote.....
The storyline clearly proves, that the cartoons were created and published as a response to selfcensorship, caused by the fear already present in western Europe. A fear induced by Islamic extremists and terrorists.
They did NOT come out of the blue, only to insult muslims - there was a reason, and a good one. How hard is that to understand?
On a second note....
The paper published them to less than 200.000 subscribers who would forget them the next day. The Imams published them to billions of people all over the world, making sure everyone would see them (including the falsified ones).
Which is the bigger crime? ~ Northman
------------- |
Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 00:50
It's been done already, though not by a muslim artist i think, but a Western artist? Just one of many poking fun at or slamming Christianity, had Jesus smeared in feces (I believe?), stirred up a reaction, but nowhere along the lines of what we had seen throughout the Middle East in regards to the Danish cartoons, regarding their prophet! That's just one reason among others, as to why i think Mughaal was blowing this way out of proportion!
Hell, Freedom of Speech for the most part i believe, does exist! Those who say otherwise, have failed miserably to explain to me in a sufficient manner, as too why i'm being offended every single day by the extreme contrasts in opinions and for absolutely no reason at all, if it doesn't exist in the first place!
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 01:00
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I wonder if Mughaal's indignation is pointed at the perceived hypocrisy or at the actual cartoon?
I am with you Panther, I believe free speech exists. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 02:20
And thus Heroi understands the issue completely, and has articulate the workable solution. Better be careful Heroi, spend too much time in these threads and you'll start thinking the sky is green and the mountains purple.
When I read that timeline (for about the umpteenth time) I come to the opposite conclusion. That they did do it JUST to get the reaction, and to insult. Can you figure out why?
The Imams committed no crime. It is not a crime to ask for help. It is not a crime to tell the police your husband hit you. It is not a crime to report a crime, and God save us if it ever becomes one. ------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 02:55
| I believe the crime that Northman is referring to is inciting a riot. I know here in the US one can be and often is arrested for inciting a riot. I believe that Northman is arguing that the Imams exacerbated the situation to such a point that they provoked the riots not the cartoon itself. |
Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 04:11
Actually, what i am getting from it, is the dangerous attitude of self-censorship as neatly practiced in a totalirian society, running amok in many a country experimenting within their own societies on multi-cultural diversity. The next step might be for the state to step in when everything goes to pot, leaving many civillians convinced that the nanny states does know best after all, leaving it to the civillians who will make that choice in the end, on whether or not to give up their freedoms... one by one! Please don't ever let that happen!! But, once that does happens, then where will be those freedom's for everyone that many have been trying extremely hard too protect, even for those of the more violent persusaion or unreasonable nature!
It is a very thin line, once it is crossed... there is no turning back without much major bloodshed for everyone concerned, to restore what was lost, if it is at all possible!
To give an example of what i mean: My views are different form others. What do i care as long as no views are squashed for any reason what-so-ever, especially over sensitive issues!
Well, not too sound disrespectful or hypocritical or even harsh, but if many people cry on about Westerners intervening and imposing upon their countries over the centuries, then what makes those type of people any different from what they accuse the West of, by trying to impose a reverse value upon the host country? Haven't they always had a history of being interventionalist as well? I don't wish to start some type of flame war, but i haven't seen many people discussing that issue in detail yet? That... or i simply must of missed it here? Did any of that make any sense?
No the Imams didn't commit a crime by practising their freedom of speech, per se. But the problem was in their intent, which was not too inform, which isn't a crime, but by appearances so far.. too only enflame middle eastern passions into bloodshed and violence to prove what ever point they were trying to make! As people, as human beings with differing views... we can accept alot of responsibilities for our action, with no region of the globe ought to be any consideration for anything different! But, when will others, especially Muslims start holding themseleves to the same standards of responsibilities as is imposed on, or recognised by most of the world? Really don't mean for that too sound sarcastic, but look upon it with the intent of it being a legitimate question.
Panther
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Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 04:41
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I dont know about you gentleman, but everyone has his/her limits. Consistently sticking needles into anyones spine is going to cause a reaction. What Europeans need to understand is there are people who dont share their self centered way of life and actually do place things besides "freedom of speech" on a higher plane then themselves. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 04:48
First of all, Muslims dont make Christ cartoons because it will be equally damning in the Muslim community. I deleted the rest. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 04:53
I agree Ako. It would be childish to respond in such a manner to something that you deem an offense, just like violent outburst were another form of stupidity. Protesting them in a civil manner however is feasible and reasonable. PS King John, for Muslims to print such a Christ cartoon would be an oxymoron, and they'd have to protest themselves. Jesus is a prophet, and the Messiah in Islam so any offensive image would be the same thing as Muhammad's. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 05:09
Isn't this bit of a superficial claim? To say that they intended bloodshed and violence is kind of derogatory of their own faith. It is not as if any Imam and any Madrasa in the world is a breeding ground for negative opinions. You do know that someone who teaches and studies his faith continuously might be a bit ticked off by such insinuating photos. Of course they would report such a blatant attempt to offend. Putting the violence on their shoulders doesn't make much sense unless you have transcripts and audio recordings of them specifying some conspiracy theory scheme immersed in blood and gore... ------------- |
Posted By: Mughal e Azam
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 05:53
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And Panther, the intent of the publishing and republishing was? Go print a caricature of the Holocaust please. Just do it. ------------- Mughal e Azam |
Posted By: Panther
Date Posted: 09-Mar-2008 at 06:20
Superficial claim? Conspiracy theories? Not anymore so then what is usally opined about on daily basis when we think about any controversial issues! Anyways, not to worry... i have no use for conspiracy theories myself, even if it would help my position or not. Too explain myself, in why i do question their motives, i can only point to a website called Memri TV. What i've read isn't pretty, in fact... i wished i never had found the site at all. Ignorance is bliss, as the saying goes!
Regarding me knowing that someone who teaches and study their faith might be ticked off over a controversial topic? Of course i know that, many Christians i know (Including me), live with it on a daily basis. Our muslim friends or countrymen aren't the only ones being offended on a daily basis, in regards to freedom of speech!
Anyways, the very last thing i ever want to see other Christians do, is to revert back to their medieval past of intolerance, bloodshed, ignorance and the many wars with one another. I do also hold out the faint hope that the Sunni and Shia Muslims can over come their present difficulties and animosities between one another as well! That might read like it sounds insincere, but let me assure you, i always try to be as honest and sincere as i can about my opinions where ever i go!
Panther
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