Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Alternative History
Forum Discription: Discussion of Unorthodox Historical Theories & Approaches
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22988
Printed Date: 10-May-2024 at 08:45
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Topic: Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Subject: Northeast European Tribe, Scythian
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 13:30
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We sacrifice unto the awful kingly Glory, made by Mazda .... As Herodotus says Scythians themselves believe their three main tribes descended from three kings that one of them was Arpoxais (Herodotus. History, Book IV, verse 5&6.) the Avestan name of this king is Urupaxaya which means 'King of Urupeans". "Uru", Old Norse "Urn", means "Eagle/Erne" and "Pa" means "foot", so "Urupa" is the name of a legendary creature which is said to be a "Quadruped Eagle", this name has entered into Greek myths in two ways: "Grupa" (Griffin) and "Harpia" (Harpy), as Herodotus again says this legendary creature lived in Scythia to guard its gold. (Herodotus. History, Book IV, verse 13) Read more about Griffins: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griffin
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Replies:
Posted By: Roberts
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 14:53
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This should belong to historical amusement sub-forum. I don't know whether I wanna cry or laugh.   |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 17:23
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Ehm...are you serious or just joking????
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 17:48
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I think may you have misread. I think Cyrus might be implying that the name of Europe came from a Scythian tribe by the same name, unlikely as it may be. Not that Europeans are descended from this tribe. At least that's how I understand this post. ------------- |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 17:52
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The original name ,pronounced "Europi" is coming from a well-known Ancient Hellenic/Greek myth. She was the daughter of Aginoras and Tilefasa , whom Zeus fell in love with.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 18:00
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I don't contest that and I don't care much about the matter, just expressing my interpretation of the post.
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Posted By: Menumorut
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 18:04
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In ancient Greek mythology, Europa was a Phoenician princess who was abducted by Zeus in bull form and taken to the island of Crete, where she gave birth to Minos, Rhadamanthus and Sarpedon. For Homer, Europe (Greek: Εὐρώπη Eurṓpē; see also List of traditional Greek place names) was this mythological queen of Crete, not a geographical designation. Later Europa stood for mainland Greece, and by 500 BC its meaning had been extended to lands to the north.
In etymology one theory suggests the name Europe is derived from the Greek words meaning broad (eurys) and face (opsis)broad having been an epithet of Earth itself in the reconstructed Proto-Indo-European religion; see Prithvi (Plataia). A minority, however, suggest this Greek popular etymology is really based on a Semitic word such as the Akkadian erebu meaning "to go down, set",[3] cognate to Phoenician 'ereb "evening; west" and Arabic Maghreb, Hebrew ma'ariv. (see also Erebus). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#Etymology - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe#Etymology -------------  |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 19:21
again, whats your source that Scythians had the same religion as ancient Persians? BTW, you've forgotten the Griffon of Baden:  it was even on the helmets of ww1 soldiers:  ------------- |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 20:55
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This is a serious discussion, of course by "Europeans" I meant just a tribe in the northeast of Europe not the whole modern European nations.
As you say "Europa" was not a Greek, so it couldn't be a Greek name, that white winged bull can be considered as the Greek and Persian version of Scythian Urupa.
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 21:23
Old Norse for eagle is one of two words "rn" (the umlaut/diaeresis actually here represents a hooked o that doesn't exist on an English keyboard or in the English language) or "ari." Foot in Old Norse is "ftr" not "pa." http://www.yorku.ca/inpar/language/English-Old_Norse.pdf - Here is an online English to Old Norse dictionary. I have looked up these words in my hard copy Old Norse dictionaries and have not been able to find these words. http://www.freelang.net/online/old_norse.php - Here is another Old Norse online dictionary. Clearly I think this claim is preposterous. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 21:41
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I believe they were Persians who adopted a Scythian religion, it is even said Zoroastrianism was found in the north of Russia or Scandinavia. http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd2sbe.htm - http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd2sbe.htm : Zarathushtra, as a heavenly priest, was, by right, the ratu or Spiritual Lord in Airyana Vaejah, where he founded the Religion by a sacrifice. http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd1sbe.htm - http://www.avesta.org/vendidad/vd1sbe.htm : The first of the good lands and countries which I, Ahura Mazda, created, was the Airyana Vaeja, by the Vanguhi Daitya. There are ten winter months there, two summer months; and those are cold for the waters, cold for the earth, cold for the trees. -------------
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 21:51
| Where does Scandinavia come into the picture? From what I gather Scythians lived in an area that included the Ukraine, Russia, and Central Asia. |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Dec-2007 at 22:09
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What evidence is there to confirm the existence of a tribe that went by this name? The name of this king is Urupakhshaya and the name means king of griffins as you say. I believe the name of Daravayush's father was Wishtaspa which means white horse? Could it not be that this king's name was just his name and it wasn't the name of a tribe?
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 09:55
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The important point is that "Uru" exatcly means "Eagle/Erne" in the Avestan language, of course there are also similar words in the Slavic languages, for example in Slovak it is "orol" (Compare to "Ural" mountains in the west of Russia) In the Persian language there is a "K" between "U" and "R", so we have Ukra (Arabic Uqab & Aqrab come from this word) similar to Latin Aquila, French Aigle and English Eagle. (Comapre to Ukraine & Ugrians/Hungrians)
Because there is a huge similarity between Iranian and Nordic mythologies.
They still exist, the Urus (Russians) The Russian national anthem: Its mighty wings spread above us -------------
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 12:21
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Interesting etymological theory.. so what actual evidence is there to suggest that the Rus are the Urupax? ------------- |
Posted By: Tar Szernd
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 12:50
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Oh...
Do you want an other "exact" meanings of Ur? It hungarian it means "Lord". Uruk means "Their Lord" and Kis means "Little".
And Ural means "he/she/it is ruling". :-)
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 16:02
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It is interesting that similar to Avestan Urupa and Greek Grupa, we have also Akkadian Kuruba (Cherub).
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 16:26
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I will find something, unfortunately there are a few sources for the origin of "Rus".
It can be related to the Avestan word "Ahura" (the Lord, God) -------------
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 18:08
Herodot gave some names of Scythian deities: http://home.ix.netcom.com/~kiyoweap/myth/arms-weap/akinakes.htm as far as i know Zoroastrian religion was monotheistic (Ahura Mazda).
in russian, the word for eagle (orel) is pronounced as aryol, which doesn't soudn at all like "uru". also, the Ural is a recent name, the Russians named the river & mountain range Ural only in the 18th century. before that, it was known as Yaik, which, if i'm not mistaken, was a Turkic word. ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 18:26
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The Persian tribes coexisted and were at one point indistinguishable from other Iranic steppe nomads, as should be obvious. Zaroaster made the religion monotheistic after migration to the minor Iran plateau and the Avesta speaks largely of pre Zaroastrian times also. The Asuras and Devas were regarded as gods until Zaroastrianism relegated them to demon and angel status. ------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 18:34
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Your entomological theory is a little far fetched. Aquila, Aigle, and Eagle have no relation to the word for eagle in the Avestan language. Eagle comes to English from the french word Aigle (the Old English word for eagle was "earn"). The French word subsequently comes from Latin. Granted all these languages came from Proto Indo-European. However they come from different branches. Latin, French, English, Old Norse are from the part of the Indo-European Language tree called the Centum Languages. Whereas, Avestan (from Indo-Iranian), Iranian, and Slavic hail from the second part of the IE Language tree called the Satem Languages. Given this division and the development of the languages (Centum and Satem) in virtual isolation there is very little overlap.1
What are the similarities between Iranian Mythology and Nordic Mythology? Keep in mind that similarities don't prove common ancestry. 1. http://www.danshort.com/ie/iecentum.htm - Centum http://www.danshort.com/ie/iesatem.htm - Satem http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/general/IE.html - Here is a break down of individual branches of the Indo-European Language family. Avestan would be under the Indo-Iranian, the others under Italic and Germanic. |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 20:44
The similarities between Nordic and Greek mythologies are even greater.
There are plenty of sources; admitedly none supporting your theories though. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 29-Dec-2007 at 21:03
| There are similarities between most of the mythologies of the world. The similarities are not as important as the differences. |
Posted By: Brian J Checco
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 00:45
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Is this thread beginning to remind anyone of the far-fetched linguistic theories from the Armenian; Descendent of Saksun thread? That one was sure interesting. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 00:55
| Brian, just as far fetched. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 14:07
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There are several places in the south west of Russia (northeast of the Black Sea) with the names similar to Urup Saka (Scythian Urupians). Urupskaya: http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241853/urupskaya.html - http://www.traveljournals.net/explore/russia/map/m4241853/urupskaya.html I found this interesting article from http://www.FindArticles.com - www.FindArticles.com about one of them: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3996/is_200207/ai_n9119082 - http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3996/is_200207/ai_n9119082 (by Ivan Kurilla) -> Uryupinsk is the "capital city of Russia's provinces." Its name is so widely used in anecdotes about Russian "country bumpkins" that many Russians believe that it is the creation of some storyteller. Uryupinsk, however, really exists. About forty thousand inhabitants enjoy a healthy and picturesque environment on the river Khoper, three hundred kilometers (about two hundred miles) from Volgograd. -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uryupinsk - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uryupinsk -------------
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Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 16:24
My personal opinion on the matter is is that they just copied off each other. So the fact of the matter is that although some may be Scythian decendants, the fact of the matter is that this is all coincidence. Not too many conspiracy theorists like that word but thats what I feel. Because not too many people give the word "coincidence" a chance! |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 17:17
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That is Urupan (Urupa+an "Country of the Eagle/Griffin") Caucasian Albania, Old Persian Arupan, Armenian Aluank, Parthian Ardhan and Middle Persian Arran (Alania). -------------
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 18:52
What is this supposed to show? I think you need to elaborate on this idea if you want people to respond. Personally I think you are playing fast and loose with etymologies here. |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2007 at 19:18
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The use of coat of arms as an illustration of the Scythian origins of Northern and Eastern Europe is a rather weak argument. These coat of arms are not ancient but rather fairly recent. They show nothing of the mythology of these nations. On the contrary, with the rise of Latin as a courtly language Latin and often Greek Mythology penetrated once "barbarian" cultures. The coat of arms uses Heraldry that has been imported from all over Medieval Europe. The fact that coats of arms from Poland, Sweden, and Germany all have Griffins in them gives more incite into the founder of these families than the mythology of Poland, Germany, and Sweden. Often Heraldic animals in coats of arms held character traits, for instance Griffins represented valour, death defying bravery, and vigilance. Dragons represented valour and protection. Bears represented strength, cunning, and fierce protection of ones kindred.1 As you can see coat of arms had character implications. It is more likely that these crests had more to do with the founder of the family/the person who commissioned the crest to be made than the mythology of the region.
1. http://www.fleurdelis.com/meanings.htm - Meanings of Heraldic Elements http://www.americancollegeofheraldry.org/achsymbols.html - American College of Heraldry |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2007 at 16:47
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It shows Caucasian Albanians were the same Scythian Urupians, I searched about "Country of the eagle" -> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Country-of-the-eagle - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Country-of-the-eagle and I found there is already a country with this name and that is Albania.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2007 at 17:41
This is ridiculous. The origin of these words is Turkic. Urub means clough or gorge in Turkic.
The origin of the name Uryupinsk, comes from the name of a Tatar Khan Uryup. ------------- Σαυρομάτης 
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2007 at 21:03
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2008 at 00:22
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I don't know how Xenophon fits here.
The city of Uryupinsk stays on Hoper river. And was founded in the 14th century mostl likely by Tatar Cossacks in the service of Ryazan principality. No any historical source in Russia even mentions Xenophon with regard to to the history of Uryupinks.
And, besides, the river you mentioned is quite far from Uryupinsk. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Tyranos
Date Posted: 10-Jan-2008 at 18:38
You seem to fascinated with trying to claim Northern Europeans as Iranians. Europa was the name of a Phoenician Princess. We get the name Europe
and all its usages, from the Romans and Greeks. Has nothing to do with
Iranians or a "Northern Europeans tribe". Caucasian Albania is not the same as the one in the Balkans. Both names come from the Greeks and Romans besides. The double-headed Eagle comes from Rome too. ------------- 
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 02:33
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This whole thread IMO is just nonsense. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 11:49
With all my respect, nonsense is also in the heads of some mods giving rude comments  You can't really prove that origin of the word is Turkic. You can probably suggest it is more likely Turkic but other suggestions are also valid. I would say that places pointed by Cyrus were inhabited by both Turkic and Iranic tribes so you should be more carefull with your suggestions.------------- . |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 19:43
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Sarmat12, I have nothing to say to you, if you believe Sarmatians were also a Turkic people!
I just think the world is larger than Greece and Rome! however I know many people think like you, so don't worry, no one complains if you even say Chinese yang dragon also comes from Rome. -------------
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Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2008 at 23:14
Which part do you contest? The fact that Europe's name came from a Greek myth or the Albania comes from Latin for white? |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 00:05
The term Nonsense is not so rude as you think it's just something that makes no sense. And now explain to me how the city Uriupinsk that was founded at the 14th century utmost (most of the sources actually give 16 century) was founded by Iranic tribes?
If you say that it was or even could, I have to appologize, but it will mean that your understanding of the Russian history is very extravagant and makes no sense at all from the point of view of established and known facts and all the historical sources on the Russian history of this periods we have.
There simply no any Iranic tribes in the region in 14 century AD.
With the same kind confidence you can say that Uriupinks was found by Aliens and means "The Great Silver UFO" in Alien language. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 00:07
I have never wrote anything like this. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 01:19
with the same kind of confidence you may also say that Urupinsk was found by Turks. As for the fact that there were no iranic tribes there -- have you ever heard that toponyms usually stay longer than languages? New ciities are sometimes called based on older toponyms. You can find other explanations as well you just need to think a little. ------------- . |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 16:12
Turks were in the region in the 14th century and in the 16th century so it's totally natural that the origin of the word is Turkic, while there were not any Iranics in the region at that time.
And I didn't say that it was founded by Turks (i.e. Tatar Cossacks) for sure, I said it was most likely while founding by Iranics is complitely unlikely.
If you you think more a little you can perhaps find the words with the similar phonetics even in Austronesian or Ameridian languages, does it mean that Amazonka Indians were there? This kind of logic is simply flawed.
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 17:34
1.no, you said that other idea was "ridiculous" and "noncense".
2. The question was about origin of the root "Urup" not nationality of the founders of this great city
Iranainan tribes were there earlier for sure.
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 17:49
Yes, I can repeat that that idea is nonsense. Other members already wrote that the name Europe comes from the Ancient Greek myth and from Ancient Greek geography. The point of making, Europeans a Skythian tribe. Is simply nonsense IMO.
Yes, the word Urup in the region of Uriupinsk most likely have Turkic origins. There is also a fair chance that it's Finno-Ugric, but not Iranic. Why? Please tell me why would the people who founded "the great city" in the 14 or 16 AD century (Russian or Tatars, regardless) use an Iranic toponim. How even they know about an Iranic toponim Urup, while there are reasonable Turkic and Finno-Ugrian explanations of its origins?
I could agree with that theory if the city would appear sometime between 4-6 AD, Iranics were still in the region, but not 1000 later after that time period.
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 18:41
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I told you already why. As a possible explanation. 'cause there was for instance small village with the same root.
Yes, the word Urup in the region of Uriupinsk most likely have Turkic origins.
No, you call the idea that the root is Iranic ridiculous because it is of Turkic origin  ------------- . |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 19:11
Yes, it is ridiculous. It's the same as I say that the word Bulgaria originates from the English word Bull. Don't you see the same root there?------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 19:26
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No it is not ridiculous. It is just another idea that whether you support it or not. ------------- . |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 19:53
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Of course it's another idea. The assumption that the name Bulgaria originates from the English word Bull is also another idea. So what?
You can think whatever you want. I think that it's ridiculous. And in any case it doesn't make sense. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2008 at 21:11
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That is why returning to the beginning of our discussion I think ridiculous is a stuf in heads of some rude mods . ------------- . |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 10:39
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Sarmat12, you need to read more about the history! Herodotus, the father of history, says: "It is reported of the Sarmatia, that when the Greeks fought with the Amazones, whom the Scythians call Urupa." (Hist. 4,110)
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 16:57
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So, what?
By quoting Herodotus who lived in 5 century B.C. that wrote that Skythians called Amazones Urupa. You want to prove that Russians or Tatars who lived 2 thousands years later named their city by the Skythian name of Amazones?
Do you think that this is more natural than just naming the city with the name that has origin in their own languages?
Perhaps you need to read more about logic.
 ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 17:13
That's why AFAIK some rude mods think that some wise members prefer to demonstrate their advanced arguing skills instead of providing some meaningful facts to support the bizzare points which they like so much. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 21:44
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Sarmat12, what do you know about Tatars? Is it strange if they use a Persian word for a place name? Lets talk about their mythology: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilant - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zilant Zilant is a legendary creature, something between a dragon and a wyvern. Since 1730, it has been the official symbol of Kazan. This winged snake is a part of Tatar and Russian folklore and is mentioned in legends about the foundation of Kazan. The word Zilant is the English transcription of Russian Зилант, itself a rendering of Tatar yılan/елан [jɯlɑn`] (i.e., "snake", sometimes pronounced as [ʓɯlɑn`]). The Tatars themselves, on the other hand, frequently refer to this creature with the Persian word Ajdaha (Dragon) [2] or Ajdaha-yılan (Dragon-snake). For Tatars, it was a repulsive creature, corresponding to European dragons and to Persian dragon. According to Idel-Ural beliefs, any snake that survives for 100 years turns into Ajdaha dragon.[3] Zilant/Ajdaha should be distinguished from Aq Yılan (White Snake), which is the king of snakes. Aq Yılan [4] or Şahmara [5] advised and helped epic heroes, batırlar [6], often by giving them gifts. As regards his beneficial influence on humans, the White Snake is similar to the Chinese dragon. The word Şahmara [7] is derived from the Persian roots shah (king) and mar (snake).[8] -------------
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2008 at 23:08
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I know many things about Tatars.
The example you raised proves nothing for your theory. Tatar and Turkic languages in general have many borrowings from Persian.
Yes, they used that Persian word for Dragon. So what?
It doesn't have any relation to Uryupinks. Because there are no words in Tatar language with the meaning you suggest. I mean "Urup"
I already wrote earlier what that word means in Turkic. To prove that Uryupinks has Iranic origin you say that Tatars sometimes used the Persian word Ajdaha for dragon.
Very strange way of thinking I would say. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 00:35
No, wise members just do not call bizarre points "ridiculous". Because "official" points of view are usually not less bizzare. This is what wise members usually trie to explain rude mods. ------------- . |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 15:04
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Sarmat12, do expect we believe that the name of Urupinsk and several other places in the north Caucasia, such as Urup river and ancient Urup Copper Mine, come from the name of an unknown Tatar Khan? Was there really a Tatar Khan with the name of Urup? Would you please give more info about him? I couldn't find his name in any historical book!! http://ethnia.org/ethnia-fiche.php?ask=RU-RU-RU-YU-YU-ST-KC-ZU - http://ethnia.org/ethnia-fiche.php?ask=RU-RU-RU-YU-YU-ST-KC-ZU
Capital: Urup [GMT+03h00] (Urup) -------------
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Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 14-Jan-2008 at 18:06
What does this have to do with the similarities between Persians and Scythians? There are many cultures that have similar mythologies but that doesn't mean that they are of the same derivation. Take for example the fact that flood stories happen to be a common element in the mythologies of most cultures. Does this mean that they all have a common ancestry that had flooding? I would say, no. These stories are more indicative of common settlement patterns - most prehistoric and ancient societies settled on the banks of rivers, which at time tend to over flow causing great floods. Again I think you are playing fast and loose with your linguistic examples. I would have to agree with Sarmat12 this topic is ridiculous. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 03:07
Please don't attribute to me the words I didn't say. I was talking particularly about the town of Uryupinsk, which is hundred miles away from North Caucasus.
North Caucasus kept Iranic influence for much longer period than the region of Uryupinks andl Iranic Ossetian-Alans, Tats and Talyshs are living there .
Obviously you didn't read all the books. And for sure the most information about Uryupinks is in Russian language. Can you read in Russian?
http://www.urup.ru/inform/history/ - http://www.urup.ru/inform/history/
Here is the webpage which is literally called "Uryupinsk online" and cites the book about the khan you're looking for.
In fact, there was even a Russian archaic word "Uryupa" which means a very honorable word... "a slob."
And there is even a hypo about the origin of the name from this word. It's not for nothing this name "Uryupinks" sounds so funny for Russians. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 12:29
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Would you please tell me some differences between Persians and Scythians? Did you know the second largest province of Iran is "Land of Scythians" (Sakastan) or Iran's national hero (Rostam) is a Scythian?
This is in Volgograd Oblast in the North Caucasus, of course for some political and economic reasons Russians try to deny this fact: http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?4780 - http://www.nupi.no/cgi-win/Russland/krono.exe?4780 : "President Putin signed a decree on 23 June renaming the North Caucasus federal district the Southern district, ITAR-TASS reported. Putin's presidential envoy to that district, General Viktor Kazantsev, told reporters on 20 June that he had requested that Putin rename the North Caucasus okrug because it includes Astrakhan and Volgograd Oblast as well as Kalmykia, which are not part of the North Caucasus. Volgograd Governor Nikolay Maksyuta had complained about his region being placed in the North Caucasus district, saying that Volgograd was previously part of the Volga interregional economic association and the Volga is the optimal trade route for his region. "
It is great that you know it.
Thanks for the link, I translated this page to English by "Babel Fish Translation" and read it.
Isn't it better that we ignore these childish stories and talk about the real history? The historical fact is that this region for several hundreds years was known as "Urupa" by Scythians and Sarmatians who lived there and is still known with this similar name, but that childish story is that "Urup" is from name of a Tartar khan, who got bogged down in a swamp near this location (Urupinsk), during a fight with Yermak (Cossack leader) and got captured. However historical sources say Yermek fought against Tatars in Siberia but Dolgachev, author of this comic book, has also discovered that "Uvyaz" (bog, slob) and "Urup" are very similar words, anyway both of them start with "U", so it is also possible that after this very important event (bogging down of that Tatar prince), Cossacks began to call this city "Bog"!!! -------------
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 12:59
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And another theory that it was derived from slavonic "u ruba" ------------- . |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 14:18
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Exactly, and I totally agree that this theory also could be true. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 14:25
I'm sorry, but obviously you need to improve your knowledge of geography before claiming that Volgograd is a part of North Caucasus, it's the same as saying that Tehran is a part of North Caucasus.
There are no any reasons for Russians to say that Volgograd wasn't in Caucasus if it really was. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 15:11
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Why not "uruba" which means "red gold" in Spanish? there is also an "Aruba island" in the north of the Paraguana Peninsula, Venezuela!! or what about this one: Chinese scholar says that uruba is the swelling up. of. a wound. It. means to rise up and become active.
http://www.answers.com/topic/caucasus?cat=travel - http://www.answers.com/topic/caucasus?cat=travel : "Caucasus is the region between the Black and Caspian seas that includes southwest Russia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, and Armenia.", isn't it? -------------
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 16:13
Simply because Slavs have been there for centuries and may have found that city (in fact they are "official founders" of Uryupinsk), unlike Spanish or Chinese.
Yes, but how it supports your asserion?
The Republic of Northern Ossetia-Alania is in Southwestern Russia and is in North Caucasus georgaphically.
Volgograd is also in Southwestern Russia but not in North Caucasus geographically.
------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 16:14
Hey, on that basis I could start a whole new thread here about how the Danes are actually Russians. Or vice versa. But I won't, I'm not in that mischievous a mood. ------------- |
Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 18:08
Scythians are Steppe nomads, scythians have different religion, scythians had different burial rites, scythians had different art, scythians had different costume...
Sistan is a later name for this province, there was no satrapy by this name just like there was no satrapy of Khorasan but Parthia. and whats the source Rostam was Scythian? ------------- |
Posted By: King John
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 18:19
| Your argument centers around the notion that Scythians were/are the ancestors of some modern North European countries. By comparing mythological traditions as you have been doing you prove nothing. My point - that floods are common to must cultures and thereby says less about cultural similarities and more about ancient settlement patterns - stands. So all Persians are Scythians? Cyrus, if you are going to include a full block quote from one of my posts you should deal with all the points I make in said quote and not just the first sentence. If you insist on only discussing the first sentence, then please answer the question posed in said sentence. (What does this have to do with the similarities between Persians and Scythians?) Clearly according to ancient sources there is a difference between Persian and Scythian. Herrodotus identifies the Scythians as being distinct from Persians. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 15-Jan-2008 at 19:12
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The assertion that Persians = Skythians is another nonsense.
As Temujin ponted the cultural patterns of them are considerably different.
Firdousi called the Northern Iranic Nomadic (Sktyho-Sarmatian) Universe - Turan. Turanians were the traditional enemies and opposites of Iran based on Shah-nameh.
The same is for the known historical facts: Skythian queen Tomyris brutally killed king Cyrus, Darius the great had a serious war with Skythians.
The remnants of Skytho-sarmatian religion wich survived in Ossetian epic reveals the mythology and religion complitely different from the religion of Iran.
------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 06:59
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Turks, Tatars, Cossacks, Russians, Slovaks, ... Which one? Of course I know it doesn't matter, you just want to be opposed to this very valid Iranian theory.
Ossetia is in the central part of Caucasus and Volgograd is in the northern part.
Did Danes, like Iranians, live in those regions for thousands years too?
Persians and Scythians were certainly two Iranian peoples with the same religion, burial rites, art, costume, ... of course Persians migrated to modern Iran and adopted some Mesopotamian and Elamite things (Such as costume, art, architecture, ...) however they preserved their religion and many other things too.
You are talking about which period?
Shahname of Ferdosi: http://ferdosi.org/shahnameh.htm - http://ferdosi.org/shahnameh.htm -------------
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 15:51
Looks like you have very strange ideas about the geography and particlary where are the geographical boundaries of Caucasus. I suggest you to check any book on geography of Caucasus before claiming smth like this.
Yes Skythians and Persians were close linguistically and had common roots but their culture and religion were very different.
There are no sources which say that Skythians were Zoroastrians. Common burial practice for Skythians was to bury their deads and build kurgans. Which was complitely unacceptable for Zoroastrians
It's only certain that Afrosiab was a Skythian ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 18:03
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Caucasus is not a country with specified boundaries, as I said the region between the Black and Caspian seas is called "Caucasus" and Volgograd is in this region.
This known Zoroastrianism mostly belongs to the Sassanid period, ancient Persians also buried their deads, there are several tombs from this period in Iran.
Afrasiab was a Turanian not Scythian, as you read here :http://ferdosi.org/shahnameh.htm "Almost two-thirds of the Shahnameh is devoted to the age of heroes, extending from Manuchehrs reign until the conquest of Alexander. The main feature of this period is the major role played by the Sagzi (Saka/Scythian) or Sistani heroes who appear as the backbone of the Iranian empire. Garshasp is briefly mentioned as is his son Nariman, whose own son Sam acted as the leading paladin of Manuchehr while reigning in Sistan in his own right. His successors were his son Zal and his son Rostam, the bravest of the brave, and then Faramarz." -------------
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 19:11
the Caucasus is a mountain range, Volgograd lies in the flat Steppe. to call Volgograd as northern caucasus is like calling the Mongolian steppe as northern himalayas!
don't know, which period are you talking about? you amde it sound like Sakas are natives to this region but it is clear from historical sources that teh Sakas only moved into this region much later. ------------- |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Jan-2008 at 19:54
So, in your opinion, Turanians were not Iranics and not the speakers of the language of Iranian subgroup, right?
------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 03:10
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Going back to North Caucasus it's established that the northern geographical boundary of the region is so called: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuma-Manych_Depression - Kuma-Manych Depression .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Caucasus - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Caucasus
Geographically, the term North Caucasus comprises the northern slope and western extremity of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_Major - Caucasus Major mountain range, as well as a part of its southern slope to the West (until the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psou_River - Psou River ). The http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forecaucasus - Forecaucasus http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steppe - steppe area is often also encompassed under the notion of "North Caucasus", thus the northern boundary of the geographical region is generally considered to be the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuma-Manych_Depression - Kuma-Manych Depression . It is bounded by the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_of_Azov - Sea of Azov and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerch_Strait - Kerch Strait on the west, and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caspian_Sea - Caspian Sea on the east.
I hope you finally can look on the map and see where it really is and stop you strange claims, Cyrus.
Unfortunately, I didn't find the English map of Kuma-Manych Depression. But you can clearly see it on this Russian map, It's called Кумо-Манычская впадина in Russian. You can clearly see that it's considerably south from Volgograd, which even didn't fit in the map:
http://www.millionreferatov.ru/pictures/31/289_1.jpg - http://www.millionreferatov.ru/pictures/31/289_1.jpg
But even if you say that Caucausus is everything that is between "Black and Caspian Sea," I'm going to show you that Volgograd is again considerably north from this line. Volgorgad is simply not "between Caspian and Black Sea."
Look at this map:
http://threesisters.gallery-forster.com/images/map_russia2.gif - http://threesisters.gallery-forster.com/images/map_russia2.gif
So, you're wrong, based both on the science of geography and your own claims.
------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 11:04
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We are talking about "Caucasus Region" not "Caucasus Mountains".
Zoroastrianism was just one of Iranian religions, it was even not a popular religion in Achaemenid and Parthian periods.
It is not clear when Sakas migrated to this region, it can be as early as Persian migration, Sakastan/Sagastan could be the same Sakarata (Sagartia) satrap of Achaemenid empire which has been mentioned by Darius the Great and Xerxes.
In Shahnameh it seems to be a Turkic or Chinese people but in Avesta they are certainly an Iranian people.
This is the region betweem the Sea of Azov and Caspian sea:
Don't think that name of Volgagrad relates to the Volga river which flows to the Caspian Sea? I mean Volgagrad oblast (province) not just the city. -------------
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Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 17-Jan-2008 at 15:22
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Unfortunately, I have to say, that you are not very familiar with Shah nameh. Never Turanians are called Chinese there. Yes, there are Chinese in Shah nameh but they appear there under there own name and never they are confused with Turanians.
And secondly Turanians also are of Iranian origin based on Shah nameh. Wiki gets it right:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan
Tūrān ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language - Persian : توران) is the ancient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages - Iranian name http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#_note-0 - [1] for http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia - Central Asia , literally meaning "the land of the Tur". As described below, the original Turanians are the Tuirya http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples - Iranian people http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#_note-1 - [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#_note-2 - [3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turan#_note-3 - [4] of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avesta - Avesta age. According to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shahnameh - Shahnameh 's account, at least 1500 years later after the Avesta, the nomadic tribes who inhabited these lands, were ruled by Tūr who was the emperor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fereydun - Fereydun 's elder son.
Thus Turan is a name for nomadic Iranics of Central Asia. Under what name they are known in history? We know several Skythians-Saka-Sarmatians. Thus, Afrosiab was also Iranic of course and he could be only Skythian
I'm impressed with your skillful edition of my previous post. First of all we were talking bout the norhtern boundary of Caucaus region not eastern or western boundary. You even didn't pay attention to the part where I gave you the information about the geographically commonly accepted Northern boundary of North Caucasus region.
But even, based on your reasoning you are wrong again.
For your information the town of Uryupinks is located to the North from Volgograd city. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 18-May-2008 at 11:39
-skij, -ski for masculine : -ska, skaja for feminine : -sko, -ske, -skje, -skuo for neutral and other similar suffixes These are just common adjective suffixes in all Slavic languages. They mean ''Of, pertaining to, characteristic of, or suitable for'', somewhat similar to Germanic -ish, -isch and other. EXAMPLE: Don (river), Donský (pertaining to Don) Bratislava (town) - bratislavský.....Bratislavský Hrad (castle of Bratislava) and so on...many many many adjectives end with such suffixes Urupkij and other - they might have something with 'Urup', but nothing with 'Saka'....that's not that word bastardised, that's just a suffix in all cases. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 18-May-2008 at 12:41
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''Pa'' means foot?? OK, but not in Old Norse, neither in any Germanic language. (Old Norse fótr) WHY? Because of so-called Grimm's Law, which says about p->f shift entering Proto-Germanic language (I'm not saying 'p' vanished in Ger-lang., but the word for 'foot' WAS affected by this shift) This is called the Great Germanic Consonant Shift, I think. Eagle in Old Norse is 'ori'/'ari'. However, I was really surprised that your translation of eagle in Slovak was correct. This is the first time probably. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 18-May-2008 at 12:49
Comes from ruotsi, the name given to Swedes by Finns, not from urus. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 18-May-2008 at 13:07
Nonsense! Slovaks never lived anywhere in Russia. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 18-May-2008 at 13:12
The Caucasus is one of the most linguistically and culturally diverse regions on Earth. The nation-states that compose the Caucasus today are the post-Soviet states Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan southwestern Russia. The Russian divisions include Krasnodar Krai, Stavropol Krai, and the autonomous republics of Adygea, Kalmykia, Karachay-Cherkessia, Kabardino-Balkaria, North Ossetia, Ingushetia, Chechnya, and Dagestan. Three territories in the region claim independence but are not acknowledged as nation-states by the international community: Abkhazia, Nagorno-Karabakh and South Ossetia. Volgograd Oblast is not. There are many oblasti as you can see, but Volgograd not;) |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 20-May-2008 at 05:34
"Ruot" (fi) = Root (eng) "Ruotsi" = Root-language (Western Scandinavian; Danish/Norwegian/Swedish) --- "Ruotsinkielli" is the Finnish name on the language spoken by the "Hurri" (Scandinavian-speaking Finns) and the "Ruotsinlainen" (Swedes/Scandianvians). This "root-language" is still spoken in Scandinavia. Present linguistic models explains that the PRESENT Finnish and Scandinavian langauges are DIRECT branches from the original (proto) "IE" language - arriving to the northern hemisphere with the mesolittic settlers that populated the Eurasian arctic 10.000 years ago. Analyzing the semantic implications of IE words and names we may benefit greatly by comparing the cosmology and logic found in the basic elements of the Swedo-Finnish accents of the Scandianvian tounge. Urus; "Ur" = Origin (source) "Us" = Mounth (river-mounth,well) --- "Au" = River/Stream "Ra" = Reign; Ra/Re/Rek/Rex/Rig/Rik, as in Norse "Erik" and "Ers"... "Ro" = Ease/Calm "Pa" = Pole Au-Pa Au-Ro-Pa --- Ap-ro-po's; Au-Ra = Aura Au-Ro-Ra = (Heavenly) Ligth --- "Bo" = Livelyhood/Nest "Re" = Reign "Al" = All "Is" = Ice In the south "Bo-Re-Al-Is" came to mean "Northern". Thus "Aurora Borealis" came to explain "The Heavenly Ligth of the Arctic", today paraphrased as "The Northern Ligths". Thus an old name as "Aurora Borealis" tells quite a few things about what and where it is - as well as that somebody already live and reign there...! Comparing the language of Firdausi, Thales, Herodot, Plato and Jordanes may be very revealing as they all refer the old connections between the old cultures of the Mediterranean antiquity - such as the Libyan/Roman, Egyptian/Greek and Perisan/Scyths. Even the northern Goths and Celts are repported to have strings attached to the old cultures of Greece, Anatolia and Persia. From the bronze-age onwards we know that "Perse-gar'd" (and later "Perselpolis") becme capitols of the culture and the population called "Persian". Their northern neighbours were already then the culture and population known as "The Scythians". Since mesolithic times this culture already populated the enormous area between Scandinavia and Persia known as "Great Russia"... Present archaeology explains that the trade of old Persia went out the Gulf and south - as well as to the amber and other treasures that were only fond in the Baltic Ocean. That means that the Persian trade with the Baltics went through the major river-systems of the Scytian kingdom - all the way up to Baltic shores. Obviously the Persian and the Schytian have a long history in common...! ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 20-May-2008 at 10:32
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That's the first time I've heard it suggested that the Finnish language is Indo-European.
I guess you live and learn ------------- |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 21-May-2008 at 02:45
There was a modern myth made in the beginning of last century explaining that that the Finns and their laguage originated in "Northeast Asia" - and thus had "Mongol origin". The immediate difference between the Scandianvian and the Finish tongues respectively, SEEM to be a strong support for this assumption - which have led historians to ASSUME that Finns and Russians had other "roots" than the Scandianvians. Over the past decade modern genetics have established that the Finns originate from the very same "branch" of modern man as do the "central and western Euopeans". That does imply that this major differentiation of the Eurasian language-group still can be spotted -along the language-border that separate the Fenno/Slavic populations of eastern Europe from the western language-groups of Goths, Celts and Germans... The recent results from Scandinavian and Finnish DNA clearly shows that the strong diffrentation between this two language-groups is a result of "cultural differences" rather than "genetic". That fact alone seem to place the Finns WITHIN the Indo-European family of languages - since "Proto-Feno-Ugrian" and "Proto-German" both seem to have co-existed among the pioneers that populated Eurasia imediatly after ice-time. Which again implies that a good number of Finnish and Swedish traders were bi-lingual already during Mesolithic time...! Still today there is no language-branch closer to the Finns than the "Indo-Eurpean". When the Goths and Celts spread in the west, the Feno-Ugrian Scyts populated central Eurasia. All the three major groups of the northern neolithics develped close contacts to ancient Greece and Persia. After times of warfare and turmoil the Guti and the Saka even appeared south of their natural bordes - to re-establish agriculture as well as culture - in Anataolia and Greece major. ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 21-May-2008 at 11:27
I never heard of that either. All my books, in particular the Cambridge Encyclopedia of Language, refer to Finnish as a member of the Uralic group (Finno-Ugric subgroup, then Baltic-Finnic) along with Hungarian, Estonian, Lapp and a few other minor groups. Nothing to do with Mongols at all - Mongolian belongs to the Altaic group.
None of this has anything whatsoever to do with race or genetics. So your arguments from genetics and DNA are irrelevant.
Similarities between languages indicate nothing about similar genetic origins or racial relationships. West Indians speak the same language (allowing for dialectical differences) as I do, but we have very different racial backgrounds.
Of course. But that doesn't mean the Scandinavian and Finnish languages are related.
It doesn't mean bilingual, merely that they could understand one another. Why is that surprising? People all over the world learn to understand and communicate with their neighbours.
Well according to the sources I've been reading all my life, Estonian is. The actual breakdown of the various Uralic languages is subject to disagreement, but not over whether Finnish is Indo-European.
Wikipedia covers the subject well enough but start at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages
Now the Finns are Scythians? Give me strength! [/QUOTE] ------------- |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 21-May-2008 at 12:06
| Everyone is Scythian... |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 21-May-2008 at 12:07
| Everyone is Scythian...I just wonder why we all speak different languages. |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 27-May-2008 at 04:04
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When the Goths and Celts spread in the west, the Feno-Ugrian Scyts populated central Eurasia.
Sorry - but the present Finns are still keeping their original lineages of genetic and language, both. The root of their origin is determined to the early mesolihic. Consequently they were present alreay when the first Schytians spread along the southern hemisphere of Eurasia, down to the Black Sea and the Caspian Sea. The results from both megalithic and neolitic sites throughout Europe and Eurasia we already know that there was two major cultures populating the northern hemisphere; one eastern and one western. Traces of the "eastern culture" can be found from Poland to east of Ural. At that time they were ALL spaking various dialects of Fenno-Ugrian. Or "Uralian" if you may. Hungary as well as Estonia were natural parts of that cultural, linguistical and etnical collective - that during history have developed in various directions - due to different destinies of history. Cnsequently we have to count the so-called "Scytians" into the Fenno-Ugrian cultures - since the population called "Scytians" (by their southern neighbours) actually came from the area known to have been populated by the origin of the "Fenno-Ugrian" culture. Thus you may get some strength from enhancing your understanding of how the present Finns - and their Fenno-Ugrian nephews - can be the closest you ever get to a "Scytian". --- Still the question arises; where did the first populus come from - that brancehd out after ice-time, to populate the "arctic/sub-arctic belt" of Russia, Belo-Russia, Ucraine, Georgia and northern Caucasia - all the way east to Tarim...?! Would not "somewhere in Scytia" be the plausible origin of the "Fenno-Ugric" peoples as well as their "Uralian" languages?! ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 11-Jul-2008 at 12:04
Cyrus, no offence but you know exactly nothing about Slavic languages so I advise you to do some studies before you tell us to compare to Ukraine. Just like 'Slav' is English, so is 'Ukraine' - it is really advisable that you look up the native names...the English names always account for nothing. So about Ukraine - it has nothing to do with eagles. It literally means 'borderland' (Slavic 'u-' meaning 'by' and 'kraj'/'krajina' meaning 'region'/'country' respectively). About Hungary: it's a very well known derivation of Turkic on-oghur meaning 'ten arrows' (idiom. ten tribes) and the H-letter is a later addition. I'm surprised you don't know about it. I didn't know the etymology of Ural, but I was able to find information that it comes from a tribe called Ural of Turkic origin ('stone belt' afaik). |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2008 at 00:35
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Regarding Fenno-Ugrians, "Uralians", Schytians and "Sakas"; Haplogroup N3: "N3 (Tat (M46)) Typical of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yakuts - Sakha and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_peoples - Uralic peoples , with a moderate distribution throughout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Eurasia - North Eurasia ". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_%28Y-DNA%29 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_%28Y-DNA%29 ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2008 at 01:01
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Ucraine/Ukraina/Ugra-aina 1. U/O often represents "Origin"/"Origo" 2. Gra/Kra has to do with breeding/growing. 3. ina/aina relates to "area"/"one(-ness)" Mark also names like "A-gra"/"A-kra", as well as the prefixes "A-kro", "A-gri" and "A-gro". Then note the paralell to "U-gra"/"U-kra" as well as "U-gri"... U-kra-(a)ine seems to imply "origin" as well as "fertility"/"breeding", "fields" (agri-) and "townships" (-culture). Not to mention that "UR" means "First Origin" - and "AL" still means "all". Thus the agriculturalists between the Caspian and the Danube seem to have anaticipated themselve to be the "spreading branches" ("descedants") of a "genuine root" ("THE ancestor?!"). Bis Wieder ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 19-Jul-2008 at 03:01
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Slayertplsko is absolutely correct. Ukraine means "border (land)" "Ukraina" basically means "at the edge" "at the outer border". "Krai" means the edge.
The origin of the name comes to the times of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. The lands of the Ukraine formed the extreme eastern edge/border of this state and literally were called the "lands at the edge." What was beyond there was considered already something wild, barbaric and Asiatic (for Poles).
So, the attempts to construe some artificial ethimologies for the word Ukraine are just funny for a native speaker of Slavic languages. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 03:03
How old are the slavonic languages?!  ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2008 at 04:57
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According to the most popular theories Proto-Balto-Slavic language separated from Indoeuropean family about 3000 BC, Proto-Slavic and Proto Baltic languages separated around 1500-1000 BC, Proto Slavic separated into different Slavonic dialects around 6-7 centuries AD. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2008 at 19:56
Accoring to the Paleolithic Continuation Theory the IE languages all derive from a proto-IE that was developed already before the end of ice-time. Well before the spread of agriculture, one may add. The same theory tells that the Scandinavian and the Finnish languages, respectively, are the two oldest remaining branches of that "proto-European" language. Consequently we may find "Scandinavian" elements in the Fenno-Ugrian languages - AND vice verca. Which we do. With that in mind we may relate how the Scandinavian root-words assosiate with the various words of Fenno-Ugrian, "Baltic", Slavonic and Greek. 1000 years ago the western tongues (Scandinavian, Anglic, Saxon) used to call the city "Könu-gard" (= "King-yard/manor"). In the same root-language "Kiev" will associate with "Ki-e-van", where "Van" reflects a populus called "Van", similar to "Ven"/"Vene"/"Vends". An intrigueging paralell is found in Asov, where "As" reflects the people called "Aser" and "-ov" is short for "hov", - the Norse word for "holy house" or "temple". Thus the name "Asov" directly reflect to the "Temple-of-Aser". No theory needed. The Scandianvian and the Fenno-Ugrian tougues still exist - with this basic information still consistent, within their vocabulary. Knowing them these elaborations become plain, simple and outrigth. Since the Latin and the Greek started to spread northwards the (northern) cultures that were conquered came to change their language into a combination of their original tongues and the language of the new rulers. Thus we got French and modern German before they combined into English. In the eastern sector where the greek-othodox took power we got combinations, between the "Greek"/"Grylic" chuch-language and the old "Fenno-ugrian" (also called "Baltic" and/or "Uralian"). That developed into various lingua, such as Magyar, Grylic or Slavonic. Though, - they all reflect on the same basic sounds that once sustantiated the proto-eurasian lingua. Thus the major languages of Eurasia still bears a reflection of this common ground. Best regards ------------- Be good or be gone. |
Posted By: Boreasi
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 04:35
Posted By: Sarmat
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 08:13
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Yes, I think this theory is correct and since Cyrus has already proved that Saxons=Scytians=Iranians, all of those naturally are Fenno-Ugrians. ------------- Σαυρομάτης
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 09:50
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Yeah and actually if you think about it, Noreg - sorry Boreasi doesn't bother to look up the native names, so I'll have to stay with Norway - in fact comes from a Slavic root 'nor-' which has to do with diving and another Slavic root 'vej-', which has to do with blowing. So Norwegians are a nations of diver which gets blown away. Also, the name of one of the major cities of the country of Blown-Away Divers - Stavanger - is interesting, since it comes from another Slavic root of (surprise?) 'stavati' and -anger is short for hangar. It is not well known that the city was called differently before WW2, but the name had to change because this was the place where the world record for the biggest amount of hangars built was broken. Therefore, the city literally translates as 'hangar-builder's'. Oslo of course, must have been one of the leading ass farms (ass - animal, not asshole) in the early middle ages. The proof for this is its etymology, since Oslo comes from again Slavic (this can't be coincidence!!!) word 'osol' (ass). Also, if you look at the regional pronunciation, these folk around the Ass Farm tend to lisp a lot and they palatalise the alveolar fricative very often. I think they are immigrants from eastern Slovakia inasmuch as they share this feature. And another interesting thing is the grave accent. I'm convinced it first appeared in this particular word and then spread to other words of Norwegian, Swedish etc. Hey buddy, where do you live?? - I ushlu. WHAT?? ushlay?? - NEEEEI!!! ushLU!! So a simple inability to understand the name of the city led its inhabitants to the use of grave accent. Yeah Boreasi, alternative etymologies rule!! And you're gonna become one of the world's leading etymologists my dear friend.  I needn't explain why were you etymologies (Kiev and the others) so nonsensical, need I?? I hope not... ------------- A mind is like a parachute. It doesn't work if it's not open. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 16-Sep-2008 at 10:00
We had discussed about it in another thread, you know what "Kian" means in the Modern Persian: http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=kian-means&aq=f&oq - http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=kian-means&aq=f&oq =
As you read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kayanian_dynasty - here , Persian "Kian" or "Kiun" comes from the Avestan kavi (or kauui) "king", the Scythian word could be "Kievi".
I think there are two famous Persian suffixes, one of them is "-istan" or "-stan" (land of) such as in Afghanistan, Kazakistan, Hayastan (Armenia in Armenian language) , ... and another one is "-gerd" or "-gard" (built by or city of) such as Susangerd, Darabgerd, Dastgerd, ... This thread is about these suffixes: http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=265&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=265&PN=1
For example lets read what "Rava" said there:
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