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Zahi Hawass fed up with Racial Politics and lies

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Topic: Zahi Hawass fed up with Racial Politics and lies
Posted By: Tyranos
Subject: Zahi Hawass fed up with Racial Politics and lies
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 08:21
Here's an interesting and  important article. I am glad Hawass is standing his ground  on facts & truth.
 
 
Tutankhamun was not black: Egypt antiquities chief
 
 
CAIRO (AFP) - Egyptian antiquities supremo Zahi Hawass insisted Tuesday that Tutankhamun was not black despite calls by US black activists to recognise the boy king's dark skin colour.



"Tutankhamun was not black, and the portrayal of ancient Egyptian civilisation as black has no element of truth to it," Hawass told reporters.

"Egyptians are not Arabs and are not Africans despite the fact that Egypt is in Africa," he said, quoted by the official MENA news agency.

Hawass said he was responding to several demonstrations in Philadelphia after a lecture he gave there on September 6 where he defended his theory.

Protestors also claimed images of King Tut were altered to show him with lighter skin at the "Tutankhamun and the Golden Age of the Pharaohs" exhibit which leaves Philadelphia for London on September 30.

The exhibition sparked an uproar when it kicked off in Los Angeles in June 2005 when black activists demanded that a bust of the boy king be removed because the statue portrays him as white.

The face of the legendary pharaoh, who died around 3,300 years ago at the age of just 19, was reconstructed in 2005 through images collected through CAT scans of his mummy.

The boy king's intact tomb caused an international sensation when it was discovered by Briton Howard Carter in 1922 near Luxor in southern Egypt.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070925/wl_africa_afp/egyptarchaeologytutankhamunrace_070925161820 - http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070925...e_070925161820



 
 
 



Replies:
Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 11:30
They used a medium skin color in order NOT to draw controversey. Some of these African Americans need to concentrate on their ancestrly like Togo, Benin, Nigeria, etc. and not worry about Egypt.
 
To me, that statue doesen't look white just kind of scary lol.


Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 13:28

What can I say? Afrocentrists. One of them claims that Seti's mummy was African because of the darker skin colour (so I heard)...they're not really taking into account that mummies...are...treated...extensively!



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Posted By: Tyranos
Date Posted: 01-Oct-2007 at 17:38
 No doubt some of them wouldve been sun-burnt and tanned to olive complexioned, due to obvious climatic conditions. But skin color alone isnt grounds for Race, not by any means.
 
Another problem is that the term "African" has become Political Correct terminology for the Negroid race/peoples, so hence "African" has become synonymous to Blacks/African-Americans. Caucasoid's are indigenous to Africa and have been since time immemorial , but today the term no longer encompasses them.
 
 
This term is often misconstrued by lunatics on the web and as well legit academia, because its politically influenced. Hawass will no doubt face this problem.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 14:38

BUT MANY ANCIENTPICTURES SHOW WHO EGYPTIAN ARE DARK SKINNED AND MANY MODERN EGYPTIAN ARE VERY DARKER.



Posted By: Parnell
Date Posted: 25-Oct-2007 at 15:10
DON'T USE CAPS LOCKS!

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Posted By: Justinian
Date Posted: 26-Oct-2007 at 01:29
Well I have a great deal of respect for Mr. Hawass and I'm glad to see him comment on this.

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"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann



Posted By: jdalton
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 02:38
Originally posted by Tyranos

 No doubt some of them wouldve been sun-burnt and tanned to olive complexioned, due to obvious climatic conditions. But skin color alone isnt grounds for Race, not by any means.

This is important, I think. The bust as shown does seem a bit light-skinned to me though I don't doubt the authenticity of his facial features. It's really amazing how much of a difference in skin colour you can get from sticking someone (of any race) outside tilling fields in the blazing sun for a few months. For this reason alone ancient Egyptians were probably darker in complexion than their modern TV-watching car-driving descendants. This is why ancient Egyptians painted men darker than they painted women in art- "beautiful" women were supposed to stay indoors and "strong" men ran around outside smiting their enemies. Tongue How much time did King Tut spend indoors? Maybe a lot- he was a bit of a wimp, wasn't he? LOL


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http://www.jonathondalton.com/mycomics.html - Lords of Death and Life (a Mesoamerican webcomic)


Posted By: andrew
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2007 at 05:36
Now lets try something here. They say they don't know the exact skin color but his facial features are sad to be very accurate. Give him Black skin and you can still see he isn't exactly Sub-Saharan. Give him White skin and he isn't exactly European.
 
You guys know what this means? He may actually have been 'Egyptian!'Shocked


Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 08-Nov-2007 at 15:04

what this means? He may actually have been 'Egyptian!'

NOOO! I'm amazed! Wink Tutankhamun an Egyptian? Who'd have thought it?
 
Zahi Hawass is a legend, through and through - he writes excellent articles in the "ancient egypt" magazine, and is a brilliant man to have leading the once decrepit and corrupt Egyptian antitquities serivce


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Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2008 at 00:04
The problem here is that people think that this kind of construction is flawless. I know someone who does this for a living. It is not an exact science. There are many things that can never be exactly recreated. For example, the exact shape of the nose and the shape of the tip. The exact shape of the lips, although I think you can get a general idea of the thickness. You cant tell shape of the ears, or eye, and skin color.

This is one of three reconstructions that was done. The Egyptians did one, this one was done by the French, and there was another one, I forget the country, but prior to this, there was one done by the USA. Why was THIS bust choosen over all the others? Given the fact that Tut was a Saidi, (Upper Egyptian), why wasn't a skin tone chosen that represents the average Upper Egyptian, a much darker shade of brown? Whey did they choose to give him light colored eyes? Although they said they chose a skin color to match the average Egyptian, the fact is that it is much lighter than the average Egyptian.

The American team who did the first reconstruction said of the skull that it was in some respects African, and in other respects closer to what they would expect in souther Europeans or Mediterranians. What this tells me is that we are talking about a person who was obviously of mixed race, which given Egypt's geographical location and the very old practice of foriegn political marriages, would not be unusual. The probelm here is this notion of racial purity, which doesn't exist anywhere, least of all a place like Egypt.

The issue that really burns me though is this notion of what is or is not A Negro? What the hell is that? There is no such thing as a NEGRO. It is an arbitrary concept. To the people who create these categories a Negro is a person with features the most dissimilar to Europeans. It's based on a presumtion that "real" Africans are as different ffrom "real" Europeans as the sun is from the moon. This simply is not true. Therefore, while a very wide range of physical characteristics are ascribed to "Caucasians", Negros are limited to the darkest skin, widest features and shortest kinkyest hair, as I said the farthest from Europeans as possible. The problem is that this is a physical type that does not represent the majority of African.

An African who has a facial structure similar to Europeans or Mediterranians are assumed to be "Caucasians", the assumption being they must have originated outside of Africa rather than representing one of many native physical types found in the continent. Its remarkable that these same scientists and scholars do not apply the same rules to people of African origin OUTSIDE of Africa. Therefore, in Latin America the caribbean Europe and the United States, people having the same facial structure labled Caucasian in East Africa, are categorized NEGROS no matter how narrow their facial indexes, no matter that they show no prognethism, no matter how much RECENT genetic input they have from Europeans.

The real question we should be asking ourselves is why, why do we continue to support such flawed and biased theories and persist in using these innacurate terms to identify people?

As for Zahi Hawas. He may be a very knowledgable scholar, but that does not mean that he is above the frailties of the human condition. To state that there is no truth to Egypt's African origins is simply false. If people wanted to take the wind out of the sails of Afrocentric extreemists, they would simply admit the obvious truth. The Egyptians were a people of varied origins and therefore can't be neatly placed into any one category. Their earliest origins lie in the native peoples of East Africa, as well as those who migrated into the Delta from the East as well as other part of Africa to the west. If one wants to see what an Ancient Egyptian looked like, GO TO EGYPT THEY'RE STILL THERE. Go to Luxor and you will see thousands of people of the exact same physical type as the statues and mummies.

So my conclusion, exactly what did Tut look like? We will NEVER know, that's just the honest to goodness truth. What was his exact skin color? again, we will never know. I would tend to think he was a lot darker than the bust simply because his mummy is very dark, while there are other mummies which are much lighter in complexion. Truth is the mummies are all different colors. Seti's mummy is very dark, while his son and grand children's are much lighter. Thereofre, the often stated opinion that dark mummies are that way because of embalming holds no water. If that were the case then all the mummies of the same dynasty would be the same color, but they are not. Conclusion, just like today by the New Kingdome at least, if not earlier, like today, the people came in a range of colors depending on their individual racial backgrounds and wether or not they took after the lighter or the darker parent.
It's the denial of the truth that keeps the fires of this nonsense burning.


Posted By: Tyranos
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2008 at 07:52
The eyes are clearly brown, and normally the nobility wouldve stayed in doors in the shade, therefore less sun exposure, hence lighter coloration of the skin .

Only certain types of East Africans display Caucasoid-like characteristics, which some anthropologist dubbed Ethiopoid, thats because they are mixed with Caucasoids to varying degree's.  If you look at the history of East Africa, you'll find, Bantu's , Berbers and Arabs there.

African has become a Politically Term to refer to Negroids, and also term to not upset black people whenever Caucasoid skulls are discovered in Africa, especially Pre-Historica Africa. The new term "African_American", only includes Blacks, not Whites from North Africa. Thats part've the reason the artists werent told where the skull came from. So Hawass is 110% correct.



 Ancient Egyptians and Egypt itself, was always included as part've Asia btw. Africa on Ancient maps, only corresponded to the Berber lands known as Libya and such in modern day North Africa. Of course scientific racism still exists, normally primarily pro-Afrocentrism which some whites and acedemia support as partve Affirmative Action acts. Today we have the Roman Emperor Severus Septimus included as a Black man , just because he's "African".Shocked

Here is Tut's skull:









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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Feb-2008 at 09:34
Skin color is the least reliable way to determine ansestry.

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Posted By: Windemere
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 01:11
Actually, though, just as Caucasoids are classed into subraces (Nordic, Mediterranean, Semitic, Turanian, Indo-aryan, etc) Negroids are also classed into subraces ( Nilotic, Bantu, Pygmy, Khoisan, Pacific-Islander, etc). Each of these has its own distinct phenotype. All racial groups tend to be on a continuum and in spite of their distinctive, characteristic  features they tend to "blend" into each other in the geographic border areas where they come together. Egypt is a location where the North African Caucasian Berbers may have encountered the East African Negro Nilotics.

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Windemere


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 02:38

The eyes are clearly brown, and normally the nobility wouldve stayed in doors in the shade, therefore less sun exposure, hence lighter coloration of the skin .

**As I said before, the Ancient Egyptians ain't ancient, THEY ARE STILL IN EGYPT. We are not talking about an extinct group of people, but a population that is very much still aliove today. You want to see them, go to Luxor and look at the average person in the street. Some of them are fair skinned, but the majority of them are dark, VERY dark, and I don't mean the kind of dark one gets from a sun tan. I mean the kind of dark that doesn't go away even when you live in New York or Canada in the middle of winter. I mean Hershey chocolate bar dark. They are still there, they are all over Egypt from Aleandria to Aswan and they didn't get that way hanging out in the fields. I have friends from Luxor who are fair skinned and you know what? No matter how much time they spend in the sun, they are still considerably lighter than their darker family members. So if it was a sun tan, everybody would have the same tan.**

Only certain types of East Africans display Caucasoid-like characteristics, which some anthropologist dubbed Ethiopoid, thats because they are mixed with Caucasoids to varying degree's.  If you look at the history of East Africa, you'll find, Bantu's , Berbers and Arabs there.

**Okay, since it's obvious you didn't read my previous post let me explain to you quite bluntly why this is bullshit. First of all, no one has answered my initial question, what the hell is a negroid or a caucasian and who the hell made these rules and who the hell died and gave them the authority to make such determinations? Yes there has been some migration of Asiatic peoples into certain parts of East Africa, but that does not account for the total population. Just because a person has narrow features does not neccessarily mean they are mixed. One can find people with narrow features all over Africa from the Massai in Kenya, to various peoples in West Africa. I've met many people from Guine with very narrow bird like noses. Look in a crowd of these people and you will find some with wide noses some with narow noses and some in between. this is just natural physical variety in the region. Should I then conclude that the Irish people I see with wide noses and pronounced prognethism are mixed to varrying degrees with "negroids"? Or is it just more logical that for whatever reason, prognethism and wide noses are part of the native physical diversity found in that region?

Okay, here is the heart of why this caucasian African business is bullshit. At the very same time ethnologists, ( who were all either American or European), were creating these classifications, they were very clear about what a "negro", was in Europe, America, Latin America the Carribean etc. In their native countries "negro" never implied that one was 100% pure blooded African. In fact most so called Black people in the Americas or Europe are tri hybrids. The average "Black" person is any where from 30 to 90% European, yet they were and are never considered anything other than "negros". They may have different names depending on the degree of "caucasian" ancestory, mulatto, quadroon, octoroon, creol, mestizo, but all these are just sub categories. The kind of NEGRO, they are still considered negros. However, in East Africa, they same physical type is called a caucasian because of an un proven theory of some imagined mixture in the dim unrecorded past. THIS IS BULLSHIT! Black skin wooly hair narrow nose, in America these same scientist callled people who looked like this niggers and denied them the same basic human dignities as perceived pure blooded European descandants. The famous cases of Homer Plessey, which being an American you must know since it was the deciding case that legalised segragation in the south and across the country declared that a NEGRO had no rights that a white man was bound to honor and that separate but egual was A okay. Homer Plessy was a "NEGRO", who was so mixed that you could not tell him from a white man based on observation. So what I want to know is if all that white blood wasn't enough to make white skinned European looking Plessey a caucasion, how the hell does a few drops of so called caucasion blood in east Africa at the time when God imade dirt turn a bunch of black skinned wolly haired African into Caucasians? Somebody pease explain that BULLSHIT to me, PLEASE!**

African has become a Politically Term to refer to Negroids, and also term to not upset black people whenever Caucasoid skulls are discovered in Africa, especially Pre-Historica Africa.

**Once again, we didn't make the rules. We didn't name the continent Africa, WHITE EUROPEANS DID! We were not the ones who decided that dark skinned Zulus are Africans but white skinned Kabylis aren't WHITE EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS DID. They didn't do it not to hurt our feelings. They don't give a fuXX about our feelings. If they did, they'd stop playing games and let us live life on our own terms and stop using bullshit terms like negro and caucasian. Some Africans have wide features, some have narrow features, some have dark skin some have very light skin, they are all Africans. Egypt is an area where dark skinned Africans from the south met and blended with light skinned Africans in the north and to some degree Asiatics from the East. They are what they are. And since the White man is the one who created all this racial classification business in the first place, they have no problem classifying mixed race people in one part of the world black or NEGRO, but White or caucasian in another part of the world. Here's another bullshit term, LUCODERM. When they want to prove the Egyptians were not and African people they bring out Ramses's mummy and declare he was a LUCODERM. Well guess what, let's go dig up Rosa Parks, Adam Clayton Powell and Homer Plessey, they're LUCODERMS too, except that in the latter case those LUCODERMS were called niggers and had to sit in the back of the bus, were not allowed to vote, couldn't send their children to the schools of their choice and could find themselves murdered by mods of terrorists for looking a European American in the eye.

So whatever Tut's real skin color, it's irrelavent. Had he been alive and walking around in Alabama in 1960, he would have been called a nigger and treated as such.   And that is why these terms, the theories and agendas behind their creation are BULLSHIT!**

The new term "African_American", only includes Blacks, not Whites from North Africa. T

**Like I said before, WE did not create the rules, White did and still do.**

Thats part've the reason the artists werent told where the skull came from.

**And once again I have to ask why was this one chosen? Why weren't all the reconstructions shown and given equal credit. This kind of reconstruction as I pointed out has its limitations. Some of them had much broader features, including the Egyptian reconstruction. Why couldn't they just simply be honest and admit that it's not an exact science and that these are simply possibilities. That would have been much more honest. Who decided that the French model was the one to choose?**

So Hawass is 110% correct. 

**Hawas in this respect is NOT correct nor honest. He is the spokes person for a post colonialist military dictatorship with an internalized post colonialist racist classist mentality. My friend I spend quite a lot of time in Egypt and truth and honesty have nothing to do with the burocracy that runs that country. This is a mentality that is trying to brain wash their own population into believing that the Coptic community are not REAL EGYPTAINS. If you don't believe me ask Andrew about that. So forgive me, I know collegues of Zahi in Egypt and he is not all that he's cracked up to be. He's a mouth piece for the same group of people who had a shit fit when Louis Gosset Jr portrayed Sadat in an American movie. The same people with the same mentality that has made Ahmed Zaki the only dark skinned Egyptian to play a leading role in the Egyptian cinima. I know these people very, very well.**

Ancient Egyptians and Egypt itself, was always included as part've Asia btw. Africa on Ancient maps, only corresponded to the Berber lands known as Libya and such in modern day North Africa.

**Included as part of Asia by whom? I'm sorry. I must be on the wrong planet. Maybe it was some "other Egypt" that just won the Afrca cup in soccer today. Not the ASIA cup, but the AFRICA CUP. I think the whole damn world knows where Egypt is located and it ain't in Asia. Regardless of what you want to call the land mass or where the name originated, Egypt is undeniably on the same piece of land that Zimbabwe is. Only Saini can be a toss up as to which side of the red sea it belongs. And by the way, Asia originally only refered to what we call Turkey today and so what?**

Of course scientific racism still exists, normally primarily pro-Afrocentrism which some whites and acedemia support as partve Affirmative Action acts.

**Bullshit! It's the other way around and always has been. Granted there are some ideots who are just to lazy or stupid or both. Affrimitive action my eye! What the hell does this have to do with affirmative action? NOTHING!.....**

Today we have the Roman Emperor Severus Septimus included as a Black man , just because he's "African".

Like I said, stupidity on some people's part. Was he a black man? Don't know, I'd have to see him in real life to say. Is there the possibility that he could have some distant black ancestor, yes, I suppose, but I think he was a berber. Whether he was a white Berber or a black berber or a mixed Berber, who the hell knows?

ShockedHere is Tut's skull:
[/QUOTE]

YEah and unless he was Irish, people with that degree of prognethism were called you know what and had to sit in the back of the bus. Full blodded African, most likely not. Mixed race, looking at that wooden bust and looking at the population of Egytp where he was born MOST DEFINATELY and in the good old US of A that means one thing and one thing only. When the USA declares that people like Alicia Keys, Marriah Carrey, Hale Berry, Rosa PArks Lena Horn and Adam Clayton Powell are CAUCASIAN then so too will king Tut be I suppose, till then, It's BULLSHIT!


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 11-Feb-2008 at 03:10
PRESS RELEASE, May 10, 2005


Tutankhamun Facial Reconstruction

Dr. Zahi Hawass, Secretary General of Egypt’s Supreme Council of Antiquities, announced today the results of three independent attempts to reconstruct the face of Egypt’s most famous king, Tutankhamun.

Dr. Hawass led the effort to see what King Tut, who died over three thousand years ago, might have looked like in life. Under his direction three independent artist-scientist teams, one French, one American, and one Egyptian, used modern forensic techniques to reconstruct Tut’s face. Two of these teams were chosen and sponsored by the National Geographic; the third was selected by the SCA. The French and Egyptian teams were told that the subject was Tutankhamun. The American team was not given the subject’s identity and was thus working “blind.”
***********************************************************************************************************
Well, well, well. What have we here? seems like the study wasn't as objective as we were lead to believe was it? So the Egyptians and the French knew who they were working on. The Egyptian reconstruction shows an individual with much more African features, so does the American reconstruction, the only ones who were working blind. Why then did the French team choose a skin tone much lighter than the darker skin tones of his actual busts made by the ancient Egyptians themselves that show a person with black eyes and the same skin color one finds amongst the native population of Luxor and Upper Egypt today? One wonders. By the way, I find it interesting that they all came up with different faces althouth there were some similar features, they look like three different people. Again, why was the Frech reconstruction chosen above all the others? why not give all the reconstructions the same amount of detail and display them all?


Posted By: Odin
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 14:33
The Egyptians, ancient and modern, are an interesting population. On the whole they, Lower Egyptians especially, look basically "Caucasoid," bust as you go up the Nile "East African" features start to show.

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"Of the twenty-two civilizations that have appeared in history, nineteen of them collapsed when they reached the moral state the United States is in now."

-Arnold J. Toynbee


Posted By: Tyranos
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 18:03
Being that are some modern  immigrants from the Sudan and Nubia, it isnt that amazing.

Hawass against Afrocentrism video:

http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1414281487




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Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 18:17
For some reason, race-supremacy theories and racism from people that have experienced it (Blacks, Jews etc) sound even more ridiculous to me than the usual ones. You'd expect that the victims of racism should know not to be racist themselves. Humans.....


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 19:59
Originally posted by Tyranos

Being that are some modern  immigrants from the Sudan and Nubia, it isnt that amazing.Hawass against Afrocentrism video:http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1414281487


Interesting and informative video. However, I think Hawas's comments are reflective of a cultural misunderstanding of what people mean when they say black in the context of the Egyptians. The reason is that Egyptian society does not have nor has it ever had a concept nor a need to classify its population into any particular group based on a concept of racial affiliation the way we do in the U.S. South African or Europe.
Therefore, when you say black to them, they think external skin color, not understanding that if you are speaking to an American, a person can have skin and features indistinguishable from a European and still be considered black or "negro" as was the case with Adam Clayton Powell and many like him.

In the context of Afro Americans, they live in a world where race is defined by governmental decree, which in turn is reflective of the social climate of the majority population and the ruling structure. Therefore, anyone with any amount of African ancestry is considered 100% BLACK. The why's are a whole 'nother topic, but the result of this policy is that what we call BLACK in this part of the world, is really a combination of many genetic strains and combinations, Africans of all color shades and phenotypes, Europeans and Native Americans. However, the major input has been varying combinations of African and European. Therefore, when they see the paintings and statuary of the Egyptians, they are not necessarily looking at skin color, (though there are many who do not understand the context of black colored statues), they are looking at the facial features and structures, which for the most part are reflective of those that they see within their community.

From their cultural perspective, that one drop = 100% BLACK, they are correct when they say the Egyptians were Black.

The second video was better informed but still missed the boat as far as the topic is concerned. The fact of the matter is that Egypt is and always has been a crossroads. The indigenous population, as he said, was a native East African one. However, because of its proximity to Western Asia and the Mediterranean, there had been from a very early period, migrations of other peoples into the country. Which is why even today one tends to find a greater concentration of lighter complected individuals in the northern half of the country. Therefore, even though the majority of the population in the earliest periods would have been of a darker skin tone, it would not have been strange to see lighter complected peoples as well.

The problem here is that we are trying to find a clear cut answer while still holding on to inaccurate and outdated classifications of race. We try to insist on a concept of racial purity in Africa, while at the same time ignoring racial mixture in America and lumping everyone into the same box as black, then we wonder why there's so much confusion. The simple fact is that the Egyptians were a mixed population from the earliest times. They can't be put into any one box because such boxes do not exist in real life, only in the context of cultural constructs. Therefore, if we use the American 1 drop construct, yes, they were black. If we use the 100% pure construct, then with the exception of the earliest of periods, no they were not.
I wish people, especially scholars who should know better, would just come right out and state the points I just mentioned instead of beating around the bush. Then maybe we could finally put this baby to rest.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 27-Jun-2008 at 20:01
Originally posted by Tyranos

Being that are some modern  immigrants from the Sudan and Nubia, it isnt that amazing.Hawass against Afrocentrism video:http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1414281487


By the way, it would be a very big mistake to assume that all the dark people one sees in Egypt are Nubians or Sudanese immigrants. The overwhelming majority of them are neither. They are simply Egyptians.


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 03:56
I had been under the impression that concepts like "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" races had long been dispensed with. Besides being laden down with historical subjective biases, they don't fit very well with what we know about human genetics. And since genetic science provides much better methods for determining ancestry, racial classifications no longer have any use.
 
From what I know about so-called "Afrocentrists", I don't think they have much to seriously add to our understanding of history. However, their theories are so marginal that I can't help thinking that the purpose of bringing them up is to have a staw-man to beat down. There are many areas where traditional historiography has been and still has to be reconsidered, and it would be a shame if dismissal of "Afrocentrism" were to bleed over onto other, more legitimate revisionism (With regards to this particular case, although it's ridiculous to suggest that Tutankhamun looked like you're average Kenyan, it's not unreasonable to take issue with the colour chosen for the bust at the top of this thread - it's debatable, at least.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 07:47
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

I had been under the impression that concepts like "Caucasoid" and "Negroid" races had long been dispensed with. Besides being laden down with historical subjective biases, they don't fit very well with what we know about human genetics. And since genetic science provides much better methods for determining ancestry, racial classifications no longer have any use.
 

From what I know about so-called "Afrocentrists", I don't think they have much to seriously add to our understanding of history. However, their theories are so marginal that I can't help thinking that the purpose of bringing them up is to have a staw-man to beat down. There are many areas where traditional historiography has been and still has to be reconsidered, and it would be a shame if dismissal of "Afrocentrism" were to bleed over onto other, more legitimate revisionism (With regards to this particular case, although it's ridiculous to suggest that Tutankhamun looked like you're average Kenyan, it's not unreasonable to take issue with the colour chosen for the bust at the top of this thread - it's debatable, at least.


As a person of African the significance of the question of color with regards to Egypt, is that it dispels the old notions of White supremacy and the assumption that the darker populations are less intelligent. One thing is certain, in the Euro-centric racist paradigm of social organization, the Ancient Egyptians would not have been in the "In crowd". Based on their skin color and physical characteristics, in the United States they would have been classified as Negroes, made to sit in the back of the bus and denied service at most public facilities. Had they been in South Africa during Apartide, they would have been considered colored, meaning people of mixed African heritage and denied access to most of the benefits that society had to offer.

The Ancient Egyptians were definitely a people of color native to the continent, regardless of the degree of admixture during any certain period, no doubt about it. Therefore, the assumption that people of color are genetically incapable of any intellectual achievements is shown to be a myth. Its just pathetic that in the 21st century these things still need to be proven to a large percentage of our population. How stone age thinking can exist side by side with the technological advances we have achieved is beyond me. So I guess because of this, there is a legitimate need to place Egypt in its proper context. I don't know if I'd consider that Afrocentric.

I'm really not too certain what Afrocentrism is supposed to be. I've encountered some really bizarre characters and theories claiming to be Afrocentric, but I wonder if this isn't a case of a legitimate cultural and intellectual movement being hijacked by some fringe elements. In any case, if the issue is to foster a legitimate reevaluation of African culture, people and history, both on the continent and diaspora, honoring the complexities of these cultures, I'm for it. If all it is is just the flip side of a white supremacist coin, then I want nothing to do with it at all.

Personally though, I'm pretty sick of Egypt always getting the lion's share of attention when it comes to African history to the detriment of the rest of the continent, including other North African societies. Its like when you look on T.V. all you see of Africa is EGYPT or Lions and Zebras on a Safari in a Kenyan national park.... and then slavery and Feed the Children. Really a big need for a more accurate spectrum, with Egypt in its proper place, not crowding out the sunlight.


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 09:07
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I'm really not too certain what Afrocentrism is supposed to be. I've encountered some really bizarre characters and theories claiming to be Afrocentric, but I wonder if this isn't a case of a legitimate cultural and intellectual movement being hijacked by some fringe elements. In any case, if the issue is to foster a legitimate reevaluation of African culture, people and history, both on the continent and diaspora, honoring the complexities of these cultures, I'm for it. If all it is is just the flip side of a white supremacist coin, then I want nothing to do with it at all.

Personally though, I'm pretty sick of Egypt always getting the lion's share of attention when it comes to African history to the detriment of the rest of the continent, including other North African societies. Its like when you look on T.V. all you see of Africa is EGYPT or Lions and Zebras on a Safari in a Kenyan national park.... and then slavery and Feed the Children. Really a big need for a more accurate spectrum, with Egypt in its proper place, not crowding out the sunlight.
I agree. I put "Afrocentrism" in quotes because I'm not sure the word actually has any meaning beyond what people who don't like it say it means.
 
I think there's a great deal of misunderstanding and ignorance of African history and societies that needs to be corrected - I do, however, trust that it's only a matter of time before that happens, if for no other reason than that those millions of people we don't see on TV today will eventually start having a much larger impact on our lives. Besides, considerable amounts of information are available for anyone who's genuinely interested (it's unfortunate that many people who should know better, whether in government, academia or business, still aren't).


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 12:31
Whatever they were, Egyptians were not the ancestors of African Americans, sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans and had nothing in common with them culturally, not even in the slightest.  Blacks and Europeans have no rights in claiming their glory just because there was no significant ancient civilisation in sub-Saharan Africa or Northern and Central Europe.  They should get over it and accept their actual heritage instead of hijacking other people's.


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Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 16:45
Originally posted by Zagros

Whatever they were, Egyptians were not the ancestors of African Americans, sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans and had nothing in common with them culturally, not even in the slightest.  Blacks and Europeans have no rights in claiming their glory just because there was no significant ancient civilisation in sub-Saharan Africa or Northern and Central Europe.  They should get over it and accept their actual heritage instead of hijacking other people's.


With exception of a few fringe elements, I don't think most Afro Americans are under the delusion that they are descended from the Egyptians. As I said before, its real significance is in showing that certain ideas which were used to justify slavery and colonialism are not founded in fact but fiction. Think of it this way. I'm old enough to remember when women were prohibited from running in marathons in this country because they were told that women were not physically capable of doing such things. There was a time when women were discouraged from seeking higher education because it was believed they didn't have the mental capacity to do so and that trying would be injurious to their physical and mental health. Now, if I were a woman in the U.S. and I saw women in China who not only had higher education, they were actually heads institutions of higher learning, it would give me strength and ammunition to fight for my right to do so here. If I was told that women were too weak to run long distances and I saw that in Europe women not only run in marathons, the set records, it would give me strength and comfort in knowing that what i was told was not true. I would go about collecting as much information as I could find on the achievements of remarkable women to show that the stereotypes are nothing but cultural and political fabrications. I would feel a sense of connection to those people, not because I believed they were my actual relatives, but because like them, I too am a woman and so in a sense their success is my success, or better yet an indication as to what I can achieve. It would prove that being a woman is not a hinderance to success in any way, physically or mentally.

Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a photo album. Its the exact same principle as that girl in the USA who was told women are too weak seeing a woman athlete in China setting world records. Just as women take pride in the achievements of other remarkable women, we take pride in the achievements of remarkable Africans for the same reason.

Unfortunately, there are some who have dived off the deep end. So on the White side you have those fishing to show a legitimate reason to justify their bigotry and sense of self importance and on the black side you have those who try to get as close to Egypt as they can to prove that the black race is the superior one, not the white and try to create genetic connections where there are none. Both these extremists are responsible for the inability that still exists of putting Egypt in its proper context.

As for Egypt's connections with other African societies. I'd like to point out that the division between North Africa and Sub Saharan Africa is a false one. It is based on an assumption that there is cultural uniformity across the board below the Sahara, which negates the reality that they are diverse and distinct cultures in that region. By the same token "North Africa does the same. It lumps all those people together based on superficial criteria which do not take into consideration the diversity of that region either. The fact of the matter is that Egypt was an African society and as such there is an abundance of cultural and material similarities with other societies both above and below the Sahara. Egypt did receive cultural input from many areas, least of which was the Saharan culture. This is one reason why we can observe certain cultural practices that are distributed across the continent from East to west for example, the practice of male and female circumcision which is still practiced from Egypt in the East to Mali in the West. As I said before, there is much work to be done on not only putting Egypt in its proper place, but understanding the variety of cultures on the continent and the degrees of relation between them.


Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 17:33
African Americans and the rest shouldn't feel the need to prove that blacks are as clever as whites or anything. The only reason there were few and short-lived advanced civilisations in Africa is the harsh climate and natural environment.

Little difficult to built pyramids when you are running away from elephants. Simple as that.


Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 18:03
That's not the only reason.  In fact it isn't a reason at all. Civilisation thrived elsewhere because of the harsh environment.  Necessity is the mother invention (cultivation, agriculture, urbanisation). Isolated tribal societies still thrive in Africa because they have everything they need to survive they don't have to consider constant innovation.


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Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 28-Jun-2008 at 19:12
Originally posted by Zagros

That's not the only reason.  In fact it isn't a reason at all. Civilisation thrived elsewhere because of the harsh environment.  Necessity is the mother invention (cultivation, agriculture, urbanisation). Isolated tribal societies still thrive in Africa because they have everything they need to survive they don't have to consider constant innovation.


Eh....I disagree. Civlisation rose in the fertile plains of Egypt, Mesopotamia and China, where life was easy. Large rivers, fertile land. The Mediterranean is also  a nice region, not many  man-eating predators, good climate.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 00:08
Originally posted by Vorian

African Americans and the rest shouldn't feel the need to prove that blacks are as clever as whites or anything. The only reason there were few and short-lived advanced civilisations in Africa is the harsh climate and natural environment. Little difficult to built pyramids when you are running away from elephants. Simple as that.


Its not a matter of trying to prove we are as smart as "white people", it was/is about showing that we are just as human as anyone else. As far as "advanced civilizations". That all depends on what your criteria are. They may not have had monumental architecture, but the fact of the matter is that most civilizations didn't either. They did show incredible competence in social organization and political management. Besides, we really have no idea what most of Africa was like in antiquity because its been largely ignored. People assumed that African was devoid of civilization and therefore did not feel the need to look for it. Had the same attitude existed with regards to India, we would never have known that Mohenjo Daro existed. The Nok culture of Nigeria may be the tip of the iceberg. Its just that with regards to Africa, the majority of attention has always been paid to the most primitive societies because it reenforced the misperception of the African as intellectually inferior. Like I said before, if you look on T.V. there are only a few images of Africa that you will see. Animals in a safari park and adds for feed the children or some other charity for starving refugees, or civil wars. Never are we shown anything of the urban societies of Africa or even images of modern societies in Africa today. This then is the idea that most people of the world have of Africa and Africans. So we really can't speak of sub Saharan civilizations because most of us know very little to next to nothing about that part of the world. Your statement about running from elephants is a perfect example. You have no idea that the majority of Africans lived in settled urban societies, not in the bush and monumental architecture has more to do with the world view of those societies than anything else.


Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 00:17
The running from elephants was just sarcastic/trying to make humor attempt Rolling%20Eyes


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 00:51
Africa is divided in two large ethnic and linguistic groups: Afroasiatics and the Bantues.
 
The Afroasiatic group includes the Moors or people of the Magbreb, Egyptians, Syrians, Arabs and other Middle Easterners, Jews and even some people down to Ethiopia.
 
Egyptians belong to that group and have nothing to do with people of West Africa, the place from where African Americans descend.


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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 00:59
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

...
Its not a matter of trying to prove we are as smart as "white people", it was/is about showing that we are just as human as anyone else. As far as "advanced civilizations". That all depends on what your criteria are. They may not have had monumental architecture, but the fact of the matter is that most civilizations didn't either. They did show incredible competence in social organization and political management. Besides, we really have no idea what most of Africa was like in antiquity because its been largely ignored. People assumed that African was devoid of civilization and therefore did not feel the need to look for it. Had the same attitude existed with regards to India, we would never have known that Mohenjo Daro existed. The Nok culture of Nigeria may be the tip of the iceberg. Its just that with regards to Africa, the majority of attention has always been paid to the most primitive societies because it reenforced the misperception of the African as intellectually inferior. Like I said before, if you look on T.V. there are only a few images of Africa that you will see. Animals in a safari park and adds for feed the children or some other charity for starving refugees, or civil wars. Never are we shown anything of the urban societies of Africa or even images of modern societies in Africa today. This then is the idea that most people of the world have of Africa and Africans. So we really can't speak of sub Saharan civilizations because most of us know very little to next to nothing about that part of the world. Your statement about running from elephants is a perfect example. You have no idea that the majority of Africans lived in settled urban societies, not in the bush and monumental architecture has more to do with the world view of those societies than anything else.
 
That's true and cosign.
 
The Africa from where the Ancestors of African Americans came from has many interesting cultures and developments. What the people in general wonders, though is why blacks focus almost exclusively in Egypt.
 
Egypt is a pretty well know culture, worldwide. Most people agrees it is not precisely nation of Whites -If for whites you mean Germanics people that looks like Paul Newman- Actually, more would think a typical Egyptian looks more like Omar Sharif or Zahi Hawass. People also knows Egyptians are not much different from others in the region, like Jews, Moors or Arabs.  Egyptians are a people with large genetic variation, but a Mediterranian rather than a Subsaharan society. Converting Egypt into another Nigeria won't convince anyone.
 


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Posted By: Tyranos
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 01:55
"Whites" doest mean Paul Newman, it means Caucasoid which is very clear definition, which is both a genetically and phenotypically different from Negroid or Mongoloid. Afrocentrism seeks to claim Egpt because of its fame and  influence, and then use it as spring board into Asia & especially Europe.


African-Americans, West Africans and even East Africans laying claim to Ancient Egypt and then claiming its modern inhabitants are all foreigners(ie Arabs) or "mixed-race" is wrong.   Hawass does a good job of making it known that Afrocentrism is a bad mental diesense which afflicts many Blacks here in the USA and elsewhere.


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Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 02:47

Originally posted by pinguin

Africa is divided in two large ethnic and linguistic groups: Afroasiatics and the Bantues.

The Afroasiatic group includes the Moors or people of the Magbreb, Egyptians, Syrians, Arabs and other Middle Easterners, Jews and even some people down to Ethiopia.

Egyptians belong to that group and have nothing to do with people of West Africa, the place from where African Americans descend.

That's not at all accurate. The Bantu language family is the largest in Sub-Saharan Africa, but it's far from the only one. Large parts of Sub-Saharan Africa have no Bantu languages, and in most places where Bantu languages are spoken they overlap with other, unrelated languages.

Culturally (and genetically) speaking, Sub-Saharan Africa is one of the most complex places in the world, if not the most complex. Saying "Sub-Saharan Africans are all Bantus" is a blatant misrepresentation of that most-of-a-continent.

Originally posted by Tyranos

"Whites" doest mean Paul Newman, it means Caucasoid which is very clear definition, which is both a genetically and phenotypically different from Negroid or Mongoloid. Afrocentrism seeks to claim Egpt because of its fame and influence, and then use it as spring board into Asia & especially Europe.

African-Americans, West Africans and even East Africans laying claim to Ancient Egypt and then claiming its modern inhabitants are all foreigners(ie Arabs) or "mixed-race" is wrong. Hawass does a good job of making it known that Afrocentrism is a bad mental diesense which afflicts many Blacks here in the USA and elsewhere.

"Caucasoid" is actually not a very clear definition. Nor are "Negroid" or "Mongoloid". At best they were working hypotheses used before human evolution was better understood. Today they constitute an obsolete and inaccurate classification system that unfortunately still has residual influence on peoples' perceptions.

I don't know who these "Afrocentrists" are who claim that Egyptians were "black" and are apparently planning to invade Asia, but if your counter-claim is that Egyptians are clearly "Caucasoid", then you're suffering from a "bad mental disease" as well.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 03:11
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by pinguin

Africa is divided in two large ethnic and linguistic groups: Afroasiatics and the Bantues.

The Afroasiatic group includes the Moors or people of the Magbreb, Egyptians, Syrians, Arabs and other Middle Easterners, Jews and even some people down to Ethiopia.

Egyptians belong to that group and have nothing to do with people of West Africa, the place from where African Americans descend.

That's not at all accurate. The Bantu language family is the largest in Sub-Saharan Africa, but it's far from the only one. Large parts of Sub-Saharan Africa have no Bantu languages, and in most places where Bantu languages are spoken they overlap with other, unrelated languages.

Culturally (and genetically) speaking, Sub-Saharan Africa is one of the most complex places in the world, if not the most complex. Saying "Sub-Saharan Africans are all Bantus" is a blatant misrepresentation of that most-of-a-continent.

You are right in part. But you can divide Africa with relative easy between Afroasiatic Africa and Black Africa. Two different worlds, both with lot of diversity.
 
Look at the picture and you will realize we are talking about different groups
 
 
 
 
 
 
 


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Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 03:27
I would accept that you can identify (very roughly) an Afroasiatic zone, but I disagree with calling the remainder of the continent simply "Black Africa". The level of diversity in Sub-Saharan Africa is an order of magnitude larger than in the north - some are as different from each other as from any other group of people in in the world.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 03:43
Yes, that's true. Afroasiatic Africa is less diverse than the South, where you find groups like the "bantues", nilotics, khoi-san, malgaches and pigmeys that are a lot more different between themselves that Egyptians and Moroccans.

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Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 19:31
Originally posted by pinguin

Africa is divided in two large ethnic and linguistic groups: Afroasiatics and the Bantues.
 

The Afroasiatic group includes the Moors or people of the Magbreb, Egyptians, Syrians, Arabs and other Middle Easterners, Jews and even some people down to Ethiopia.

 

Egyptians belong to that group and have nothing to do with people of West Africa, the place from where African Americans descend.


As usual you deliberately try to ignore whatever I've said and take the conversation somewhere else. I think I explained my point very well, so brining up the issue of who is related to whom is totally irrelevant.


Posted By: Tk101
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 19:37
hmm i think much of this is folly from the get go..but such inaccurrate terminologies such as Caucasoids, negroid mongoloid..etc should be no longer used....
i think its funny how even though its known that these terms aren't accurate you still have scientist using it...aka north African Caucasoids... predominately based on his nasal index and narrowness of his nose... but i rarely hear them mention the other terms they way they use Caucasoids... example was the so called "black" mummies found in the desert ( i think it was out in the sahara...they use black instead of what they want to say which is negroid. i can understand the similiarities between north African coastal populations and the nile valley residents but i rarely hear the of the similarities between horn african peoples and egyptians...just pointing out somethings....



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there is only one truth
- Conan
[IMG]http://www.architecture.org/shop/images/402036lg.jpg[IMG]


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 19:39
Originally posted by Tyranos

"Whites" doest mean Paul Newman, it means Caucasoid which is very clear definition, which is both a genetically and phenotypically different from Negroid or Mongoloid. Afrocentrism seeks to claim Egpt because of its fame and  influence, and then use it as spring board into Asia & especially Europe. African-Americans, West Africans and even East Africans laying claim to Ancient Egypt and then claiming its modern inhabitants are all foreigners(ie Arabs) or "mixed-race" is wrong.   Hawass does a good job of making it known that Afrocentrism is a bad mental diesense which afflicts many Blacks here in the USA and elsewhere.


And this is what I mean by people who go off the deep end. The modern population is genetically diverse, they are racially mixed but so what? Regardless of their skin colors or features. Although there are people who migrated in, the majority of the population is of the same bloodline as the ancients, just as my father with his white skin and hazel blue eyes is still a descendant of Congo.   

As far as Hawas is concerned, I just wish he would also address the equally distorted white supremacist perspective as well. The sickness is not Afrocentrism, the sickness is like a virus. It contaminates everyone it touches and racism is prevalent in the Americas and growing in Europe.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 29-Jun-2008 at 19:50
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley


Originally posted by pinguin

Africa is divided in two large ethnic and linguistic groups: Afroasiatics and the Bantues.


The Afroasiatic group includes the Moors or people of the Magbreb, Egyptians, Syrians, Arabs and other Middle Easterners, Jews and even some people down to Ethiopia.


Egyptians belong to that group and have nothing to do with people of West Africa, the place from where African Americans descend.


That's not at all accurate. The Bantu language family is the largest in Sub-Saharan Africa, but it's far from the only one. Large parts of Sub-Saharan Africa have no Bantu languages, and in most places where Bantu languages are spoken they overlap with other, unrelated languages.


Culturally (and genetically) speaking, Sub-Saharan Africa is one of the most complex places in the world, if not the most complex. Saying "Sub-Saharan Africans are all Bantus" is a blatant misrepresentation of that most-of-a-continent.


You are right in part. But you can divide Africa with relative easy between Afroasiatic Africa and Black Africa. Two different worlds, both with lot of diversity.

 

Look at the picture and you will realize we are talking about different groups

 


 

 

 

 

 

 


This is a map showing language groupings not classifications based on physical appearances. If you look at the map shown and you visit those countries you will see that it is an area of great diversity when it comes to physical type. Also notice that a significant portion of the Afro Asiatic distribution is well below the Sahara. Therefore many of the people in the Afro Asiatic group are indistinguishable from other peoples found in parts of Sub-Saharan Africa. No one would ever confuse a Tuareg from Mauritania with a sephardic Jew or a Syrian, nor a typical Ethiopian with an Amahzig Berber from Algeria.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 01:23
Of course the map is linguistic and ethnical, rather than racial.
 
The point is very simple. Egypt was an Afroasiatic civilization more, between many, as Sumer, Babilon, the Phoenicians, Carthago, the Jews, Arabs, etc.
 
On the other hand, the slaves brought to the Americas didn't came from the Afroasiatic region but from the rest of Africa.
 
In short, it is very clear the relation between Black Americans and Ancient Egypt don't exist.


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Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 06:46
Originally posted by pinguin

Of course the map is linguistic and ethnical, rather than racial.
 

The point is very simple. Egypt was an Afroasiatic civilization more, between many, as Sumer, Babilon, the Phoenicians, Carthago, the Jews, Arabs, etc.

 

On the other hand, the slaves brought to the Americas didn't came from the Afroasiatic region but from the rest of Africa.

 

In short, it is very clear the relation between Black Americans and Ancient Egypt don't exist.


So did you read anything I said previously? Obviously not. How many ways do I have to say that West Africans / Afro Americans are not blood descendants of Egyptians? I know English isn't your first language and all.... but honestly, can't you understand that? Okay, just for you, I'll say it again: WE ARE NOT BIOLOGICALLY DESCENDED FROM THE EGYPTIANS. The issue is not and never has been to try and claim that we are Egyptians or related to them biologically in any way. I stated very clearly in great detail what the issue is, so why do you insist on harping on something that has nothing to do with the issue? You aren't making sense nor are you contributing to the discussion in a logical way.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 07:02
Originally posted by pinguin

Of course the map is linguistic and ethnical, rather than racial.
 

The point is very simple. Egypt was an Afroasiatic civilization more, between many, as Sumer, Babilon, the Phoenicians, Carthago, the Jews, Arabs, etc.

 

On the other hand, the slaves brought to the Americas didn't came from the Afroasiatic region but from the rest of Africa.

 

In short, it is very clear the relation between Black Americans and Ancient Egypt don't exist.


As for the slaves brought to the Americas. Yes indeed many of them did come from the Afro Asiatic branch as clearly shown by the map. Afro Asiatic peoples are found in most of West Africa and the northern areas of Central Africa. The Hausa, Fulani, Wodabe, Wolof all speak Afro Asiatic languages and they were all caught up in the slave trade to the Americans. In some cases Africans were shipped all the way from East Africa to Brazil and the Caribbean.

Nevertheless, as i said before, this does not indicate that Afro Asiatic speakers have anything in common one with the other. Sudanese are Afro Asiatic speakers. What did the NUBIANS have in common with Sumerians, Babylonians, Jews or Arabs? I'll tell you, NOTHING. What did Berbers have in common with Arabs? NOTHING. What did Berbers have in common with Ethiopians, past or present? Nothing, yet they are both Afro Asiatic speakers. Your premise is a false one. You try to place Egypt in Western Asia because they spoke a certain language group while failing to realize that the Afro Asiatic zone is one of incredible diversity and individuality. Now, can we stick to the actual issue, or is that too hard for you?


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 08:36
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by pinguin

Of course the map is linguistic and ethnical, rather than racial.
 

The point is very simple. Egypt was an Afroasiatic civilization more, between many, as Sumer, Babilon, the Phoenicians, Carthago, the Jews, Arabs, etc.

 

On the other hand, the slaves brought to the Americas didn't came from the Afroasiatic region but from the rest of Africa.

 

In short, it is very clear the relation between Black Americans and Ancient Egypt don't exist.


As for the slaves brought to the Americas. Yes indeed many of them did come from the Afro Asiatic branch as clearly shown by the map. Afro Asiatic peoples are found in most of West Africa and the northern areas of Central Africa. The Hausa, Fulani, Wodabe, Wolof all speak Afro Asiatic languages and they were all caught up in the slave trade to the Americans. In some cases Africans were shipped all the way from East Africa to Brazil and the Caribbean.

Nevertheless, as i said before, this does not indicate that Afro Asiatic speakers have anything in common one with the other. Sudanese are Afro Asiatic speakers. What did the NUBIANS have in common with Sumerians, Babylonians, Jews or Arabs? I'll tell you, NOTHING. What did Berbers have in common with Arabs? NOTHING. What did Berbers have in common with Ethiopians, past or present? Nothing, yet they are both Afro Asiatic speakers. Your premise is a false one. You try to place Egypt in Western Asia because they spoke a certain language group while failing to realize that the Afro Asiatic zone is one of incredible diversity and individuality. Now, can we stick to the actual issue, or is that too hard for you?
Nubian languages are not Afro-Asaiatic, they are Nilo-Saharan. Sumerian isn't Afro-Asiatic either Pinguin, it is a language isolate.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Zagros

Whatever they were, Egyptians were not the ancestors of African Americans, sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans and had nothing in common with them culturally, not even in the slightest.  Blacks and Europeans have no rights in claiming their glory just because there was no significant ancient civilisation in sub-Saharan Africa or Northern and Central Europe.  They should get over it and accept their actual heritage instead of hijacking other people's.


With exception of a few fringe elements, I don't think most Afro Americans are under the delusion that they are descended from the Egyptians. As I said before, its real significance is in showing that certain ideas which were used to justify slavery and colonialism are not founded in fact but fiction. Think of it this way. I'm old enough to remember when women were prohibited from running in marathons in this country because they were told that women were not physically capable of doing such things. There was a time when women were discouraged from seeking higher education because it was believed they didn't have the mental capacity to do so and that trying would be injurious to their physical and mental health. Now, if I were a woman in the U.S. and I saw women in China who not only had higher education, they were actually heads institutions of higher learning, it would give me strength and ammunition to fight for my right to do so here. If I was told that women were too weak to run long distances and I saw that in Europe women not only run in marathons, the set records, it would give me strength and comfort in knowing that what i was told was not true. I would go about collecting as much information as I could find on the achievements of remarkable women to show that the stereotypes are nothing but cultural and political fabrications. I would feel a sense of connection to those people, not because I believed they were my actual relatives, but because like them, I too am a woman and so in a sense their success is my success, or better yet an indication as to what I can achieve. It would prove that being a woman is not a hinderance to success in any way, physically or mentally.

Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a photo album.
This statement shows really well that the connection the people of African diaspora (represented by you here) feel towards Egypt is based on looks and external physical characteristics, the very elements upon which are based the classifications they (you) so furiously despise and try to deny.  Furthermore, based on physical characteristics and looks,  there are enough elements in the Egyptian population that people of Europe/west Asia (especially the Mediterranean regions and the Arabian peninsula) can connect with as well, so it would be a double standard to dismiss them by using the card of ''racism'' and considering them as ''racists who use racist classifications''.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Its the exact same principle as that girl in the USA who was told women are too weak seeing a woman athlete in China setting world records. Just as women take pride in the achievements of other remarkable women, we take pride in the achievements of remarkable Africans for the same reason.

Unfortunately, there are some who have dived off the deep end. So on the White side you have those fishing to show a legitimate reason to justify their bigotry and sense of self importance and on the black side you have those who try to get as close to Egypt as they can to prove that the black race is the superior one, not the white and try to create genetic connections where there are none. Both these extremists are responsible for the inability that still exists of putting Egypt in its proper context.

As for Egypt's connections with other African societies. I'd like to point out that the division between North Africa and Sub Saharan Africa is a false one. It is based on an assumption that there is cultural uniformity across the board below the Sahara, which negates the reality that they are diverse and distinct cultures in that region. By the same token "North Africa does the same. It lumps all those people together based on superficial criteria which do not take into consideration the diversity of that region either. The fact of the matter is that Egypt was an African society and as such there is an abundance of cultural and material similarities with other societies both above and below the Sahara. Egypt did receive cultural input from many areas, least of which was the Saharan culture. This is one reason why we can observe certain cultural practices that are distributed across the continent from East to west for example, the practice of male and female circumcision which is still practiced from Egypt in the East to Mali in the West. As I said before, there is much work to be done on not only putting Egypt in its proper place, but understanding the variety of cultures on the continent and the degrees of relation between them.
If the connection you (as the representative of the people of African diaspora)  feel towards Egypt is geographical (sharing a continent) or cultural, then why so much focus on blackness/whiteness, nativity/foreignness and the looks of people?
Also what is the proper place for Egypt in your mind? Based on your accusations directed at him in this thread, it is obviously very different from that of the renowned Egyptian scholar/archaeologist Dr. Zahi Hawass.


 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Tyranos

Hawass against Afrocentrism video:http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1414281487

The second video was better informed but still missed the boat as far as the topic is concerned. The fact of the matter is that Egypt is and always has been a crossroads. The indigenous population, as he said, was a native East African one. However, because of its proximity to Western Asia and the Mediterranean, there had been from a very early period, migrations of other peoples into the country. Which is why even today one tends to find a greater concentration of lighter complected individuals in the northern half of the country. Therefore, even though the majority of the population in the earliest periods would have been of a darker skin tone, it would not have been strange to see lighter complected peoples as well.
This is entirely different from what the person in the second video said. He never used the words 'indigenous' or 'native', and  never said that the ''indigenous population was a native east African one''. The closest sentence to this was when he said ''there is no evidence to suggest that Egypt is anything but of local origin, of north east African origin in its place and in its time''. 

I notice from your posts that while you always push the diversity of the ''modern population'' forward, your main focus underneath all is that before all the external influences, the indigenous population was ''native east African'', whose skin colour was lightened by the foreigners.

So I wondered, by ''indigenous/native east Afrian'' , which type of features are you talking about? Also the modern state of Egypt is comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural regions would have looked different from each other physically before they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?

Since the topic is about the looks of people and yet it seems that when some members try to describe or suggest physical characteristics by conventionally used/understood terms, they receive very strong and negative reactions from some other members, I will post photos instead, of some people from the eastern part of the African continent. Perhaps you can tell me which one of them is the closest to the look of ''native east African'' you talk about, and maybe you can even prove that the phenotype you choose was indeed the indigenous one of whichever part of Egypt you are talking about.
I am sure many or most people are mixed and show characteristics between all those phenotypes below but since you are talking about an native/indigenous population before external influences, I picked those  pictures/phenotypes accordingly.




A Sudanese family
http://www.gba.org/templates/cusgba/details.asp?id=21323&PID=422738&Style= - http://www.gba.org/templates/cusgba/details.asp?id=21323&PID=422738&Style=  


A Sudanese actor
http://theypouredfire.com/alepho_photos.htm - http://theypouredfire.com/alepho_photos.htm
 

The Kenyan football team
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/africa/6483981.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/africa/6483981.stm
 The%20image%20“http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42719000/jpg/_42719033_kenya203.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.



An Egyptian Family
http://www.coptic-cairo.com/culture/tradition/tradition.html - http://www.coptic-cairo.com/culture/tradition/tradition.html
family_hoch

An Egyptian actor
http://www.vh1.com/movies/person/426502/personmain.jhtml - http://www.vh1.com/movies/person/426502/personmain.jhtml
The%20image%20“http://www.vh1.com/sitewide/flipbooks/img/movies/people/a/abdalla_khalid/71062266_10.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.

The Egyptian football team
http://www.sis.gov.eg/En/Society/acup/teams/091304000000000001.htm - http://www.sis.gov.eg/En/Society/acup/teams/091304000000000001.htm
 The%20image%20“http://www.sis.gov.eg/Images/Society/0001/L_0992.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.



A Nubian (south of Egypt~north of Sudan) family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Egypt-Nubian_wedding.jpg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Egypt-Nubian_wedding.jpg  The%20image%20“http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Egypt-Nubian_wedding.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.

Some Masai people
http://www.sfu.ca/%7Ejld/masai.htm - http://www.sfu.ca/~jld/masai.htm

http://www.jocelynwyatt.com/blog/index.php?m=05&y=07 - http://www.jocelynwyatt.com/blog/index.php?m=05&y=07



An Ethiopian person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Selassie.jpg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Selassie.jpg  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Selassie.jpg

A Somali person
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Abdiqassim_Salad_Hassan_1.jpg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Abdiqassim_Salad_Hassan_1.jpg
 The%20image%20“http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Abdiqassim_Salad_Hassan_1.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.

Some Somalian girls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Somaliland_somali_nomad_girls.jpg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Somaliland_somali_nomad_girls.jpg   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Somaliland_somali_nomad_girls.jpg">Image:Somaliland%20somali%20nomad%20girls.jpg




Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 10:20
Omshanti, please give links for your pictures. In the meantime, this thread belongs in Alternative History.


-------------


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 11:23
Hi Sparten, as you requested, I edited my post and gave links for the pictures.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

I would accept that you can identify (very roughly) an Afroasiatic zone, but I disagree with calling the remainder of the continent simply "Black Africa". The level of diversity in Sub-Saharan Africa is an order of magnitude larger than in the north - some are as different from each other as from any other group of people in in the world.

It is quite well known that according to population genetics based on mitochondrial DNA and y-chromosome, people in sub-Saharan Africa show greater diversity than the rest of the world. However mtDNA  and y-chromosome prove absolutely nothing about external appearance or who their carriers really were because they make up a tiny part of the entire human genome. They are simply a very good tool to trace the movements of ancient populations because they mutate in a relatively fast pace, which also means that the longer the time of human occupancy of a region, the more diverse the mutations can be in that region. Since Africa is the homeland of modern humans, we can easily see that the humans have occupied Africa longer than the rest of the world hence the bigger diversity in their (especially the Khoisans') mutations of mtDNA and y-chromosome.
Regrading externally visible physical characteristics (which the topic is about), I think  that ''sub -Saharan Africa is more diverse than the rest of the world'' is a myth.  We just have to pick a north east Asian, south east Asian, a Semang, an Indian, a European, a Papua New Guinean,  a Melanesian, an Australian aboriginal, a Polynesian, a native American..etc   person and put them all next to each other, and then also pick some people from any different parts of  sub-Saharan Africa and do the same. We can then see which group has a greater diversity in their looks.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 15:57
Originally posted by omshanti


With exception of a few fringe elements, I don't think most Afro
Americans are under the delusion that they are descended from the
Egyptians. As I said before, its real significance is in showing that
certain ideas which were used to justify slavery and colonialism are
not founded in fact but fiction. Think of it this way. I'm old enough
to remember when women were prohibited from running in marathons in
this country because they were told that women were not physically
capable of doing such things. There was a time when women were
discouraged from seeking higher education because it was believed they
didn't have the mental capacity to do so and that trying would be
injurious to their physical and mental health. Now, if I were a woman
in the U.S. and I saw women in China who not only had higher education,
they were actually heads institutions of higher learning, it would give
me strength and ammunition to fight for my right to do so here. If I
was told that women were too weak to run long distances and I saw that
in Europe women not only run in marathons, the set records, it would
give me strength and comfort in knowing that what i was told was not
true. I would go about collecting as much information as I could find
on the achievements of remarkable women to show that the stereotypes
are nothing but cultural and political fabrications. I would feel a
sense of connection to those people, not because I believed they were
my actual relatives, but because like them, I too am a woman and so in
a sense their success is my success, or better yet an indication as to
what I can achieve. It would prove that being a woman is not a
hinderance to success in any way, physically or mentally.



Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all
peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily
connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no
African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that
no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of
significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of
people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in
our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a
photo album.


This statement shows really well that the
connection the people of African diaspora (represented by you here) feel
towards Egypt is based on looks and external physical characteristics,
the very elements upon which are based the classifications they (you)
so furiously despise and try to deny.  Furthermore, based on physical
characteristics and looks,  there are enough elements in the Egyptian
population that people of Europe/west Asia (especially the
Mediterranean regions and the Arabian pennisula) can connect with as well, so it would be a double
standard to dismiss them by using the card of ''racism'' and
considering them as ''racists who use racist classifications''.

You are not understanding the significance nor the context of what I'm saying. First of all understand that we did not create the system of racial classification, it was imposed on us. Secondly, as I said before, we are not 100% pure blooded Africans. Race classification was created by the elite class of the majority ethnic group for the purpose of maintaining their position of power and influence by dividing the undercalss, (both black and white) against each other. Since the majority of the underclass were of European origin, the effort was made to get them on the side of the ruling class. To do this they made servitude a life long condition for people of African origin, while at the same time giving all whites a higher status. You have to understand that a great deal of control under slavery and later colonialism was and is psychological. No people are born racist. In order to get the majority of people to support it you must convince them and likewise to get a person to accept being a slave or colonized you must convince them of their inferiority.

You don't understand just how vicious this mentality is. Even if a person had only 1 black ancestor going back 4 generations they were still considered part of the black population. Such a person may very well look no different than a European and if their maternal ancestors were slaves, they were automatically slaves. This means that there were many slaves who were just as white as their masters in appearance.
Therefore the justification of racial discrimination wasn't totally based on the way a person looked. However, what we were told by the ruling society is that no Africans anywhere on the continent made any achievements. Dark skin was a sign of mental inferiority. Since intelligence is carried in the blood, anyone with any amount of African blood is of inferior intelligence.

Now when you are told these things by the society you live in for generations, there are many people who will believe it on some level. Certainly most white people believed it because that's what they were taught and although they resented it, so did many black people. But you see, this mentality doesn't just stop at black people. It was used to justify the exploitation of all peoples around the world who were not white. The widely believed theory was that all people who were not White Europeans were inferior. That includes you, that includes me, that includes modern Egyptians today, that includes Arabs, Chinese and NAtive Americans. Everyone who was not 100% pure blooded European was believed to be racially inferior. Therefore, if skin color is believed to be a sign of mental weakness, how can you prove the theory wrong? By showing people who are the opposite of what they say.

I made the comparison with women.    If it is said that all women are too weak to be athletes, how do you prove it is wrong? By finding a woman who is a champion athlete. Its the same situation with regards to Egypt. They said NO SOCIETY IN AFRICA ever produced a civilization. Well Egypt is a society in Africa. They said that no black skinned person or a person mixed with a black, no matter how small the amount, was capable of displaying any significant amount of intelligence. Well Egyptians are a people with black admixture. Some are darker,some are lighter, so that proves the theory false as well.   Do you understand? now?


If the connection you (as the representative of the
people of African diaspora)  feel towards Egypt is geographical (sharing a
continent) or cultural, then why so much focus on blackness/whiteness,
nativity/foreignness and the looks of people?

Because of the mind games that are played by the racist establishment. It is they who have created this whole mentality in the first place. To this day we are still judged by the color of our skin, facial features or ancestral background. If you say the Egyptians were an African people, they say no they weren't, they were Western Asians who migrated into Africa. In other words what they are trying to say is that these people were white because blacks are incapable of doing anything and not Africans because no African has ever achieved anything. No matter where in Africa you find evidence of intelligence, the racist establishment will try to claim it was the result of a white population who migrated there, hence the invention of the so called CAucasian Africans, but I'll say more on that later. This is what they did with Zimbabwe, the West African Empires etc. That is why we in response spend so much time pointing out the obvious.

Also what is the proper place for Egypt in your mind? Based on your
accusations directed at him in this thread, it is obviously very
different from that of the renowned Egyptian scholar/archaeologist Dr. Zahi
Hawass.

The proper place of Egypt is an African Civilization, not a so called Middle Eastern Civilization. The whole concept of a Middle East was invented by the colonialist mind. There is no such thing as a Middle East. The Earth is a globe. So how can you point at any one section and call it the middle of something. It can only be the middle in relation to something else and for the colonialist that something was Europe. Therefore Middle East is judged according to how close or far it is to Europe. They ignore all the diversity in the region and indiscriminately lump everyone together regardless of ethnicity, language or culture. Egypt was an African civilization which because of its geographical location was a crossroads between Africa, the Mediterranean, and Western Asia. However, they try to remove it from African by placing it in the made up "MIDDLE EAST" and try to deny the African elements in the population by classifying the peoples caucasians and claiming that they migrated into Egypt from the outside.

As for Hawas, understand something. i travel to Egypt almost annually since 1988. I live with Egyptians, I work with them and I know historians in Egypt who know him and have dealt with him. He is not without bias he is the spokes person of the government, which is a military dictatorship. They control every aspect of the media and life in the country because they are very concerned with the image that the world, in particular, the west has of them. They want to be seen as being part of the Western society, not Africa. Why? Realize that Egypt is a former colony of the European colonialists, first the French then the English and so they have suffered the sting of racism and the brainwashing that happens within the educational system put in place by the colonizers. They were made painfully aware that they were regarded as a non white people who were inferior to Europeans in every way. Therefore they were aware of the way Africa was viewed in the eyes of the colonizers. Because of that and the additional stigma of the African slave trade, there are many Egyptians who try to distance themselves as far as they can from being associated with Africa, which they see as being backward and inferior. The ruling elite of Egypt today, (of which Hawas is a member) and those who aspire to be in that class, have adopted a European lifestyle and aesthetic. I have friends who went to the top Jesuit schools in Egypt and to this day they are still taught that European culture is the hallmark of sophistication and civilization, while the native customs of their country are barbaric and primitive. You have to dig a little deeper and know something about the societies in question and not take things on face value.




This is entirely different from
what the person in the second video said. He never used the words
'indigenous' or 'native', and  never said that the ''indigenous
population was a native east African one''. The closest sentence to
this was when he said ''there is no evidence to suggest that Egypt is
anything but of local origin, of north east African origin in its place
and in its time''. 

No this is EXACTLY what the speaker in the second video said. "Local origin" means the exact same thing as native or indigenous. What he is saying in effect, is that the old theory that Egypt was founded by people who migrated into Africa is false. There is evidence to show they traded with people in Mesopotamia, but no evidence to show that the population of Egypt came anywhere else except East Africa. In other words, they were Africans. A people originating in the African continent, not a people who migrated in.



I notice from your posts that while you always push the diversity of
the ''modern population'' forward, your main focus underneath all is
that before all the external influences, the indigenous population was
''native east African'', whose skin colour was lightened by the foreigners.

And so what is the problem with that? It is the truth. How else do you explain the vast variety of skin tones in the population? Who else do you explain the fact that in many families the skin tones range from light to dark? The fact that some members in a family have straight hair while others have kinky hair? Admixture. It doesn't mean that they are any less Egyptian than a person who is dark. Egypt lies at a cross roads, and so its population was drawn from many areas. Yes the oldest population was the local East African types, but over the course of its history from very archaic times, there were other people who did come into the country, either by migration or conquest. Therefore what is a real Egyptian? A real Egyptian is the total of all the forces that have impacted on the creation of the country as a whole. All the populations and the mixing of all those elements. They are all Egyptian regardless of skin color. They all share a common history culture and way of life and that is what really makes them Egyptian. Therefore a person who is light skinned is NOT a foreigner, they are Egyptian because they have been totally integrated into every aspect of the society and have been intermarrying within the society, so they are connected not only by geography, nationality but by blood as well.


So I wondered, by ''indigenous/native east Afrian'' , which type of
features are you talking about? Also the modern state of Egypt is
comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is
quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural
regions would have looked different from each other physically before
they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east
African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?



Since the topic is about the looks of people and yet it seems that when
some members try to describe or suggest physical characteristics by
conventionally understood terms, they receive very strong and negative
reactions from some other members, I will post photos instead, of some
people from the eastern part of the African continent. Perhaps you can
tell me which one of them is the closest to the look of ''native east
African'' you talk about, and maybe you can even prove that the
phenotype you choose was indeed the indigenous one of whichever part of
Egypt you are talking about.I am sure many or most people are mixed and show characteristics
between all those phenotypes below but since you are talking about an
native/indigenous population before external influences, I picked
those  pictures/phenotypes accordingly.

You are right in that all these people are East Africans. I don't dispute this, in fact I agree with it. And it is much better to show actual photos rather than using broad terms. As you can see from the photos, because of the diversity of types in the areas, we should try to be more specific. The only problem is that the Nubian, Ethiopian and Somilis are classified as caucasians, which is misleading. They claim that only the phenotypes you showed of the Sudanese and Kenyans are Africans and that all the others are CAUCASIANS, meaning they a part of the White race, originating outside of Africa, but   What people of African descent have maintained and still do is that ALL the types you showed are native Africans. As you can see, none of those peoples would ever be mistaken for anything other than an African. They are not Europeans, they are not Asians and they would never be mistaken for Indians even though Indians are also dark.

Now with regards to the modern Egyptians you showed. I'll remind you of what I said about the fact that Afro Americans and by this I include all of Latin America and the Caribbean, not just the USA. We are not full blooded Africans, we are in fact mixed. Realize that there are many individuals in the Afro American community, in the States, Caribbean and Latin America who look just like these people. The father could be my uncle and the son looks like my cousin and little brother. Understand that had any of the Egyptians in that family been living in the United States as recent as 45 years ago, they would be classified as negroes based on appearances and denied access to most public facilities and services which were reserved for whites only. As for the actor, there are millions of Afro Americans who are even lighter than he is. However you didn't provide here enough photos of modern Egypt, why? because those are just two of many many physical types you find in the country. There is no one phenotype or skin tone that is representative of the entire population. What you encounter in Egypt are people who for the most part are a medium brown like the family, but a significant portion of the population may be a few shades darker and there are many who are much lighter. One tends to find that the percentage of lighter people are in the Delta, while in Upper Egypt the percentage of darker people is higher. It would be better if we could see up close photos of the soccer team because then you would see what I mean about the diversity of phenotypes.

So when you look at the population, you see people who reflect the mixture of all the East African types as well as characteristics of Western Asians and Mediterraneans. So its not unusual to find people who look exactly like the Ethiopians and Somalis, or a very light skinned person with straight hair who has the same nose as the Sudanese actor.

So when I say East African, I mean the Somali, nubian and ethiopian phenotypes, however, there was input from other groups as well. From the archeological evidence skulls of the Sudanese types have been found in Egypt in the earliest periods as well as types fitting the Ethiopians and Somalis. There have also been skulls that were similar to Mediterranean types found as well. So all this suggest just what I have always been saying, which is basically the population was made of peoples coming from different areas of the south, south east and south west. These were the first people there, but add to that people who did migrate in from Western Asia in the north and you have Ancient Egypt. Add to this mix all the populations of Persians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc and you get the Modern Egyptians. They are the sub total of all the historical events that have shaped the country.

If people would just simply admit that Egypt was and is what it is, there would be no controversy. But it is the continued attempts to remove it from the context of the continent by denying the darker elements that causes the problem.





A Sudanese family http://www.gba.org/templates/cusgba/details.asp?id=21323&PID=422738&Style= - http://www.gba.org/templates/cusgba/details.asp?id=21323&PID=422738&Style=   <span style="text-decoration: underline;"></span>

A Sudanese actor http://theypouredfire.com/alepho_photos.htm - http://theypouredfire.com/alepho_photos.htm  

The Kenyan football team http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/africa/6483981.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/africa/6483981.stm  The%20image%20“http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/42719000/jpg/_42719033_kenya203.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.An Egyptian Family http://www.coptic-cairo.com/culture/tradition/tradition.html - http://www.coptic-cairo.com/culture/tradition/tradition.html family_hochAn Egyptian actor http://www.vh1.com/movies/person/426502/personmain.jhtml - http://www.vh1.com/movies/person/426502/personmain.jhtml The%20image%20“http://www.vh1.com/sitewide/flipbooks/img/movies/people/a/abdalla_khalid/71062266_10.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.The Egyptian football team http://www.sis.gov.eg/En/Society/acup/teams/091304000000000001.htm - http://www.sis.gov.eg/En/Society/acup/teams/091304000000000001.htm  The%20image%20“http://www.sis.gov.eg/Images/Society/0001/L_0992.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.A Nubian (south of Egypt~north of Sudan) family http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Egypt-Nubian_wedding.jpg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Egypt-Nubian_wedding.jpg  The%20image%20“http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/88/Egypt-Nubian_wedding.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.Some Masai people http://www.sfu.ca/%7Ejld/masai.htm - http://www.sfu.ca/~jld/masai.htm http://www.jocelynwyatt.com/blog/index.php?m=05&y=07 - http://www.jocelynwyatt.com/blog/index.php?m=05&y=07 An Ethiopian person http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Selassie.jpg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Selassie.jpg  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/04/Selassie.jpgA Somali person http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Abdiqassim_Salad_Hassan_1.jpg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Abdiqassim_Salad_Hassan_1.jpg  The%20image%20“http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/81/Abdiqassim_Salad_Hassan_1.jpgâ€%20cannot%20be%20displayed,%20because%20it%20contains%20errors.Some Somalian girls http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Somaliland_somali_nomad_girls.jpg - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Somaliland_somali_nomad_girls.jpg   http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e8/Somaliland_somali_nomad_girls.jpg">Image:Somaliland%20somali%20nomad%20girls.jpg [/QUOTE]


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 17:39
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


You are not understanding the significance nor the context of what I'm saying. First of all understand that we did not create the system of racial classification, it was imposed on us.
 
 
Who is "us". As far as I know you aren't an egyptian.
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

 However, what we were told by the ruling society is that no Africans anywhere on the continent made any achievements. Dark skin was a sign of mental inferiority. Since intelligence is carried in the blood, anyone with any amount of African blood is of inferior intelligence.
 
 
But that fact has nothing to do with Egypt. People ignores the cultures of West Africa. If the same effort put in showing the Egyptian connection with Black Americans (that few people believe) would have been put instead in the archeology of Nigeria, a change would have been produced already.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

 
 The widely believed theory was that all people who were not White Europeans were inferior. That includes you, that includes me, that includes modern Egyptians today, that includes Arabs, Chinese and NAtive Americans. Everyone who was not 100% pure blooded European was believed to be racially inferior.
 
 
Believed by whom? In other words, why to care for what ignorants think?
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

 
They said NO SOCIETY IN AFRICA ever produced a civilization. Well Egypt is a society in Africa. They said that no black skinned person or a person mixed with a black, no matter how small the amount, was capable of displaying any significant amount of intelligence. Well Egyptians are a people with black admixture. Some are darker,some are lighter, so that proves the theory false as well.   Do you understand? now?
 
 
 
Nope. I don't see the conexion between self pride or fighting racism, and destroying the historical truth. Many people didn't develop civilizations: Australian Aborigines, Amazonians, Inuits, Germans for instance. That don't convert them in "inferiors" in any way. They don't pretend to descend from the Atlantis, either.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

 
Because of the mind games that are played by the racist establishment.
 
 
 
That doesn't allow them to falsify history.
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

 
The proper place of Egypt is an African Civilization, not a so called Middle Eastern Civilization.
 
 
 
"Africa" is a recent invention, derivated from the times of European colonialism. In the ancient times, "Africa" was only the Maghreb, and didn't include the lands south of the Sahara. In other terms "Egypt" exist BEFORE "Africa". And Egypt has always been in the "known world", unlike Subsaharan Africa that was only explored in the 19th century.
 
Even more, Africa is not equivalent to Black
 
QUOTE=Rakasnumberone] 
As for Hawas, 
[/QUOTE]
 
Hawas is a Egyptian. I preffer to believe him.
 


-------------


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 30-Jun-2008 at 20:15
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

You are not understanding the significance nor the context of what I'm saying. First of all understand that we did not create the system of racial classification, it was imposed on us.
 

 

Who is "us". As far as I know you aren't an egyptian.

 

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


 However, what we were told by the ruling society is that no Africans anywhere on the continent made any achievements. Dark skin was a sign of mental inferiority. Since intelligence is carried in the blood, anyone with any amount of African blood is of inferior intelligence.

 

 

But that fact has nothing to do with Egypt. People ignores the cultures of West Africa. If the same effort put in showing the Egyptian connection with Black Americans (that few people believe) would have been put instead in the archeology of Nigeria, a change would have been produced already.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  The widely believed theory was that all people who were not White Europeans were inferior. That includes you, that includes me, that includes modern Egyptians today, that includes Arabs, Chinese and NAtive Americans. Everyone who was not 100% pure blooded European was believed to be racially inferior.

 

 

Believed by whom? In other words, why to care for what ignorants think?

 

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

 
They said NO SOCIETY IN AFRICA ever produced a civilization. Well Egypt is a society in Africa. They said that no black skinned person or a person mixed with a black, no matter how small the amount, was capable of displaying any significant amount of intelligence. Well Egyptians are a people with black admixture. Some are darker,some are lighter, so that proves the theory false as well.   Do you understand? now?

 
 

 

Nope. I don't see the conexion between self pride or fighting racism, and destroying the historical truth. Many people didn't develop civilizations: Australian Aborigines, Amazonians, Inuits, Germans for instance. That don't convert them in "inferiors" in any way. They don't pretend to descend from the Atlantis, either.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

 Because of the mind games that are played by the racist establishment.
 
 

 

That doesn't allow them to falsify history.

 

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

 
The proper place of Egypt is an African Civilization, not a so called Middle Eastern Civilization.

 
 

 

"Africa" is a recent invention, derivated from the times of European colonialism. In the ancient times, "Africa" was only the Maghreb, and didn't include the lands south of the Sahara. In other terms "Egypt" exist BEFORE "Africa". And Egypt has always been in the "known world", unlike Subsaharan Africa that was only explored in the 19th century.

 

Even more, Africa is not equivalent to Black

 

QUOTE=Rakasnumberone] 

As for Hawas, 

 

Hawas is a Egyptian. I preffer to believe him.

 
[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

You are not understanding the significance nor the context of what I'm saying. First of all understand that we did not create the system of racial classification, it was imposed on us.


Who is "us". As far as I know you aren't an egyptian.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


However, what we were told by the ruling society is that no Africans anywhere on the continent made any achievements. Dark skin was a sign of mental inferiority. Since intelligence is carried in the blood, anyone with any amount of African blood is of inferior intelligence.



But that fact has nothing to do with Egypt. People ignores the cultures of West Africa. If the same effort put in showing the Egyptian connection with Black Americans (that few people believe) would have been put instead in the archeology of Nigeria, a change would have been produced already.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The widely believed theory was that all people who were not White Europeans were inferior. That includes you, that includes me, that includes modern Egyptians today, that includes Arabs, Chinese and NAtive Americans. Everyone who was not 100% pure blooded European was believed to be racially inferior.



Believed by whom? In other words, why to care for what ignorants think?


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


They said NO SOCIETY IN AFRICA ever produced a civilization. Well Egypt is a society in Africa. They said that no black skinned person or a person mixed with a black, no matter how small the amount, was capable of displaying any significant amount of intelligence. Well Egyptians are a people with black admixture. Some are darker,some are lighter, so that proves the theory false as well.   Do you understand? now?



Nope. I don't see the conexion between self pride or fighting racism, and destroying the historical truth. Many people didn't develop civilizations: Australian Aborigines, Amazonians, Inuits, Germans for instance. That don't convert them in "inferiors" in any way. They don't pretend to descend from the Atlantis, either.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Because of the mind games that are played by the racist establishment.


That doesn't allow them to falsify history.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


The proper place of Egypt is an African Civilization, not a so called Middle Eastern Civilization.



"Africa" is a recent invention, derivated from the times of European colonialism. In the ancient times, "Africa" was only the Maghreb, and didn't include the lands south of the Sahara. In other terms "Egypt" exist BEFORE "Africa". And Egypt has always been in the "known world", unlike Subsaharan Africa that was only explored in the 19th century.


Even more, Africa is not equivalent to Black


QUOTE=Rakasnumberone]

As for Hawas,


Hawas is a Egyptian. I preffer to believe him.

[/QUOTE]

Dear Penguin: Rather than call you an idiot as I did a few months back, I will simply ignore you. Not because you disagree with me, but because of the way in which you go out of your way to take my words out of context and twist them around. Your first question is just a reflection of the degree of ridiculousness to which I refer. No matter how many times I keep saying Afro Americans are not Egyptians, you still keep trying to twist my words and imply that I am trying to make a biological connection where none exists rather than understanding the context. Omshanti asked why the preoccupation amongst Afro Americans with the color issue. I pointed out to him that Afro Americans did not create the system colonial Europeans did. You took what I said out of context deliberately.

As for the rest of your reply...... regardless of what the landmass was called the fact is that Egypt is a part of that land mass that we now call Africa. This is just another example of one of your tactics. Using irrelevant information. No matter what the continent was called, how much of it was explored by outsiders in antiquity the fact is that Egypt is still located on that continent. The continent is now known to the world as Africa and Egypt is still located on it.

As for Hawas. Understand that there is no freedom of the press in Egypt. It is a military dictatorship. People are not free to express their opinions the way we are. Their opinions are dictated by the state. Therefore, whatever Hawas really feels has to take second place to the official government view. If you want to know more about the political situation in Egypt and how it impacts on society and free though, google search Wael Abbas and his work.

Now having said that, there is nothing more I care to say to you.


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 01:07

Originally posted by omshanti

It is quite well known that according to population genetics based on mitochondrial DNA and y-chromosome, people in sub-Saharan Africa show greater diversity than the rest of the world. However mtDNA and y-chromosome prove absolutely nothing about external appearance or who their carriers really were because they make up a tiny part of the entire human genome. They are simply a very good tool to trace the movements of ancient populations because they mutate in a relatively fast pace, which also means that the longer the time of human occupancy of a region, the more diverse the mutations can be in that region. Since Africa is the homeland of modern humans, we can easily see that the humans have occupied Africa longer than the rest of the world hence the bigger diversity in their (especially the Khoisans') mutations of mtDNA and y-chromosome.
Regrading externally visible physical characteristics (which the topic is about), I think that ''sub -Saharan Africa is more diverse than the rest of the world'' is a myth. We just have to pick a north east Asian, south east Asian, a Semang, an Indian, a European, a Papua New Guinean, a Melanesian, an Australian aboriginal, a Polynesian, a native American..etc person and put them all next to each other, and then also pick some people from any different parts of sub-Saharan Africa and do the same. We can then see which group has a greater diversity in their looks.

I agree that mtDNA and y-chromosome studies cover a very small proportion of the human genetic code, but you would have to make the case to me why you think the diversity registered in that small part of the code would not also be reflected in the other parts of the code.

It's definitely not a myth that Sub-Saharan Africans are unusually diverse. Aside from curly hair, I can think of no feature or trait that is characteristic of Sub-Saharan Africans in general. I also can't think of any feature or trait that's supposedly characteristic of any non-African population that isn't present among populations in Africa.

Fundamentally, the human species is relatively young and hasn't gone through any significant changes yet. There have been a couple of regional bottlenecks where local diversity was lost, but nothing significant has been added to the gene pool that isn't present in the source population (Africa). Whatever apparent differences there are between various populations are so superficial and mutable, and flow so gradually into each other, that any attempt to classify them has to be largely subjective.



Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 01:33
As regards Dr. Hawass, the fact of the matter is that it's perfectly legitimate to debate the skin pigmentation chosen for the bust shown at the top of this thread. Although the pigment chosen is a possibility, it's definitely at the lighter end of the spectrum compared to modern-day Egyptians.
 
Dr. Hawass is a well-respected Egyptologist, but he's also a supremely media-conscious man who, as far as I can tell, has never met a camera he didn't like (countless Discovery Channel documentaries feature ridiculous b-roll of Dr. Hawass climbing in and out of caverns, and doing his very best Indiana Jones impression). He's not above courting controversy to stimulate interest in his field.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 02:32
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

It is quite well known that according to population genetics based on mitochondrial DNA and y-chromosome, people in sub-Saharan Africa show greater diversity than the rest of the world. However mtDNA and y-chromosome prove absolutely nothing about external appearance or who their carriers really were because they make up a tiny part of the entire human genome. They are simply a very good tool to trace the movements of ancient populations because they mutate in a relatively fast pace, which also means that the longer the time of human occupancy of a region, the more diverse the mutations can be in that region. Since Africa is the homeland of modern humans, we can easily see that the humans have occupied Africa longer than the rest of the world hence the bigger diversity in their (especially the Khoisans') mutations of mtDNA and y-chromosome. Regrading externally visible physical characteristics (which the topic is about), I think that ''sub -Saharan Africa is more diverse than the rest of the world'' is a myth. We just have to pick a north east Asian, south east Asian, a Semang, an Indian, a European, a Papua New Guinean, a Melanesian, an Australian aboriginal, a Polynesian, a native American..etc person and put them all next to each other, and then also pick some people from any different parts of sub-Saharan Africa and do the same. We can then see which group has a greater diversity in their looks.

<FONT face=Arial size=2>

I agree that mtDNA and y-chromosome studies cover a very small proportion of the human genetic code, but you would have to make the case to me why you think the diversity registered in that small part of the code would not also be reflected in the other parts of the code.


It's definitely not a myth that Sub-Saharan Africans are unusually diverse. Aside from curly hair, I can think of no feature or trait that is characteristic of Sub-Saharan Africans in general. I also can't think of any feature or trait that's supposedly characteristic of any non-African population that isn't present among populations in Africa.


Fundamentally, the human species is relatively young and hasn't gone through any significant changes yet. There have been a couple of regional bottlenecks where local diversity was lost, but nothing significant has been added to the gene pool that isn't present in the source population (Africa). Whatever apparent differences there are between various populations are so superficial and mutable, and flow so gradually into each other, that any attempt to classify them has to be largely subjective.



This is exactly the point many of us have been trying to make as to why we are not comfortable with the term "negro". Its limited to one very specific physical type. The term negro and Sub-Saharan African are used interchangeably when in fact, as you mentioned there is a great range of physical types in the region. There is no one physical type that can be used to represent all of Africa below the Sahara. If we look at West Africa and choose three countries, Guine, Nigeria, and Senegal, you come up with at least 3 different physical types. If you go to Congo, Malawi and South Africa, you will find different types as well. This negro thing is another example of what I talked about of the West's attempt to homogenize people by creating imaginary regions and pretending that they are all the same in terms of language, culture and physical type. It is not true or accurate. Therefore, they come to Africa with preconceived notions of what an "African" should be and when they encounter people who do not fit their artificial model, they either pretend they don't exist or try to make them somehow a part of a non African group.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 02:43
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


Dear Penguin: Rather than call you an idiot as I did a few months back, I will simply ignore you. Not because you disagree with me, but because of the way in which you go out of your way to take my words out of context and twist them around. Your first question is just a reflection of the degree of ridiculousness to which I refer. No matter how many times I keep saying Afro Americans are not Egyptians, you still keep trying to twist my words and imply that I am trying to make a biological connection where none exists rather than understanding the context. Omshanti asked why the preoccupation amongst Afro Americans with the color issue. I pointed out to him that Afro Americans did not create the system colonial Europeans did. You took what I said out of context deliberately.

I didn't cite you out of context, Dear "Rakasnumberone". I just pick up expressions that you formulate. I didn't comment your speach as a whole, because it was longer than the TV series "Dallas". 
 
The problem with the color issue is that it doesn't matter to history. Many East Indians are even darker than most Subsaharan Africans, and nobody is arguing their culture isn't their.
 
I am afraid you are the one in this debate that has shown the highest sensitivity to skin color, confussing a social phenomena (history) with a chemical effect (genes).
 
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


As for the rest of your reply...... regardless of what the landmass was called the fact is that Egypt is a part of that land mass that we now call Africa. This is just another example of one of your tactics. Using irrelevant information. No matter what the continent was called, how much of it was explored by outsiders in antiquity the fact is that Egypt is still located on that continent. The continent is now known to the world as Africa and Egypt is still located on it.

No tactic at all involved. Egypt is part of Africa, but also part of the Fertile Crescent and the mediterranean coast. Egypt has historical relations with the three, and the strongest looks like to be with Mesopotamia and Palestine, rather than with the people down south the Nile.
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


As for Hawas. Understand that there is no freedom of the press in Egypt. It is a military dictatorship. People are not free to express their opinions the way we are. Their opinions are dictated by the state. Therefore, whatever Hawas really feels has to take second place to the official government view. If you want to know more about the political situation in Egypt and how it impacts on society and free though, google search Wael Abbas and his work.
 
Hawas is a Egyptian, very likely descendent of the real ancient Egyptians. Besides he is a scientific that has a reputation he deserves. I respect his opinion, and understand the reason why he is upset.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


Now having said that, there is nothing more I care to say to you.
 
I have nothing more to say you either.
 


-------------


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 03:12
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

As regards Dr. Hawass, the fact of the matter is that it's perfectly legitimate to debate the skin pigmentation chosen for the bust shown at the top of this thread. Although the pigment chosen is a possibility, it's definitely at the lighter end of the spectrum compared to modern-day Egyptians.
 

Dr. Hawass is a well-respected Egyptologist, but he's also a supremely media-conscious man who, as far as I can tell, has never met a camera he didn't like (countless Discovery Channel documentaries feature ridiculous b-roll of Dr. Hawass climbing in and out of caverns, and doing his very best Indiana Jones impression). He's not above courting controversy to stimulate interest in his field.


And this is just one reason why a lot of historians and Egyptologists in Egypt don't like him. They also resent the fact that there are many people in Egypt who are far more qualified than he is, but because he knew the right people.....

I also know someone whose husband is an archeologist who had worked in Egypt. They had found evidence about certain aspects of historical events in Egypt but were prevented from publishing their findings. Hawas himself on the behalf of the government informed them that if they ever did, they would never be allowed to do another dig in Egypt so long as they lived. When it comes to Egypt, there is ALWAYS the state sanctioned version and real life reality. This even holds true for things like their "folk dance" companies, radio, television and film (all state regulated). Everything is about the image they wish the world to have of them, not the reality. Check out Dr. Henry Clark's Wonders of the African world to see how the interview with the Nubians went down.


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 04:42
Originally posted by pinguin

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Dear Penguin: Rather than call you an idiot as I did a few months back, I will simply ignore you. Not because you disagree with me, but because of the way in which you go out of your way to take my words out of context and twist them around. Your first question is just a reflection of the degree of ridiculousness to which I refer. No matter how many times I keep saying Afro Americans are not Egyptians, you still keep trying to twist my words and imply that I am trying to make a biological connection where none exists rather than understanding the context. Omshanti asked why the preoccupation amongst Afro Americans with the color issue. I pointed out to him that Afro Americans did not create the system colonial Europeans did. You took what I said out of context deliberately.

I didn't cite you out of context, Dear "Rakasnumberone". I just pick up expressions that you formulate. I didn't comment your speach as a whole, because it was longer than the TV series "Dallas". 

 

The problem with the color issue is that it doesn't matter to history. Many East Indians are even darker than most Subsaharan Africans, and nobody is arguing their culture isn't their.

 

I am afraid you are the one in this debate that has shown the highest sensitivity to skin color, confussing a social phenomena (history) with a chemical effect (genes).

 

 

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As for the rest of your reply...... regardless of what the landmass was called the fact is that Egypt is a part of that land mass that we now call Africa. This is just another example of one of your tactics. Using irrelevant information. No matter what the continent was called, how much of it was explored by outsiders in antiquity the fact is that Egypt is still located on that continent. The continent is now known to the world as Africa and Egypt is still located on it.

No tactic at all involved. Egypt is part of Africa, but also part of the Fertile Crescent and the mediterranean coast. Egypt has historical relations with the three, and the strongest looks like to be with Mesopotamia and Palestine, rather than with the people down south the Nile.

 

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As for Hawas. Understand that there is no freedom of the press in Egypt. It is a military dictatorship. People are not free to express their opinions the way we are. Their opinions are dictated by the state. Therefore, whatever Hawas really feels has to take second place to the official government view. If you want to know more about the political situation in Egypt and how it impacts on society and free though, google search Wael Abbas and his work.

 

Hawas is a Egyptian, very likely descendent of the real ancient Egyptians. Besides he is a scientific that has a reputation he deserves. I respect his opinion, and understand the reason why he is upset.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Now having said that, there is nothing more I care to say to you.

 

I have nothing more to say you either.

 


Dear Penguin:

Those accustom to reading material over a paragraph in length are not afraid of the written word, which confirms what I suspect. You never took the time to read all of what I had to say. Rather, you read the bits and pieces that your attention span allowed you to grasp and that is why you do not understand what I've been trying to say. Had you done so, you would have seen that all I was doing was giving the cultural and historical context behind the controversy and nothing more.

I'll not waste your time nor mine trying to explain what you got wrong in your reply to me because its obvious you really don't care and don't want to know. You have made you your mind that you know all there is to know about me, the topic and all of history. So to your comments i'll simply say WHATEVER! and leave it at that.

Have a nice day


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 05:01

OK, let's not waste time with Egypt. If you want to contribute to the thread about Subsaharan Africa, I would be glad to contribute with what I know as well. If you want to talk about about archaelogy in Subsaharan Africa, African arts influence on modern arts or the bronzes of Ife, I follow as well. Even more, if you are interested in the hot topic of fractals in native Africa... I am also interested and I have posted some things there.

But if you insist is discussing about the Black Athena (Egypt)... well you can follow the discussion by yourself.

Good night.

 



-------------


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 15:04
Originally posted by pinguin

OK, let's not waste time with Egypt. If you want to contribute to the thread about Subsaharan Africa, I would be glad to contribute with what I know as well. If you want to talk about about archaelogy in Subsaharan Africa, African arts influence on modern arts or the bronzes of Ife, I follow as well. Even more, if you are interested in the hot topic of fractals in native Africa... I am also interested and I have posted some things there.


But if you insist is discussing about the Black Athena (Egypt)... well you can follow the discussion by yourself.


Good night.


 



No Penguin, you don't understand, (typical). I don't want to waste my time talking to you at all. Everything that comes out of your mouth shows you are incapable and unwilling to listen and understand what I'm saying. The fact that I'm a person of African descent makes it impossible for you to see me as anything but an Afrocentrist, which if you had the ability to read and the necessary English comprehension skills, you would see that I'm not. Your stupid comment about Black Athena just shows that to you any black person is an Afrocentrist no matter what they say. Speaking to you is a waste of time because you obviously have a bias when it comes to black people. I can speak to Omshanti and even if we disagree we can have a logical conversation, the same goes for everyone else here except you. Knowing your mentality I dread to see what kind of stuff you wrote.

GOOD BYE PENGUIN.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2008 at 20:19

Bye now.



-------------


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 11:31
To Bernard Woolley.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

It is quite well known that according to population genetics based on mitochondrial DNA and y-chromosome, people in sub-Saharan Africa show greater diversity than the rest of the world. However mtDNA and y-chromosome prove absolutely nothing about external appearance or who their carriers really were because they make up a tiny part of the entire human genome. They are simply a very good tool to trace the movements of ancient populations because they mutate in a relatively fast pace, which also means that the longer the time of human occupancy of a region, the more diverse the mutations can be in that region. Since Africa is the homeland of modern humans, we can easily see that the humans have occupied Africa longer than the rest of the world hence the bigger diversity in their (especially the Khoisans') mutations of mtDNA and y-chromosome.
Regrading externally visible physical characteristics (which the topic is about), I think that ''sub -Saharan Africa is more diverse than the rest of the world'' is a myth. We just have to pick a north east Asian, south east Asian, a Semang, an Indian, a European, a Papua New Guinean, a Melanesian, an Australian aboriginal, a Polynesian, a native American..etc person and put them all next to each other, and then also pick some people from any different parts of sub-Saharan Africa and do the same. We can then see which group has a greater diversity in their looks.


I agree that mtDNA and y-chromosome studies cover a very small proportion of the human genetic code, but you would have to make the case to me why you think the diversity registered in that small part of the code would not also be reflected in the other parts of the code.
Simple. let me give you two reasons.

1. Different parts of the genome mutate at different pace of speed. This means that the amount of mutation in one part does not necessarily correspond with the rest. The fast mutation pace of the mtDNA and y-chromosome is the very reason they are used to trace human movements. It is easier to follow a person who leaves more footsteps, isn't it?

2. Native Americans for example, the Americas having the shortest history of human occupancy, have the least number of haplogroups (4~5 if I remember correctly, which is even less than the amount found in Japan). If the rest or the whole of the human genome corresponded with the number of haplogroups , then there should only be 4~5 people in the Americas and the rest should be identical genetic copies of those 4~5 people. That is not the case however.  The number of human population, of which every single person is genetically unique and therefore looks different as an individual, does not correspond with the number of haplogroups found in humanity. This fact alone shows that mtDNA and y-chromosome do not necessarily speak for the whole of the genome.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

It's definitely not a myth that Sub-Saharan Africans are unusually diverse. Aside from curly hair, I can think of no feature or trait that is characteristic of Sub-Saharan Africans in general.
If that is the case, why is it possible to recognize a sub-Saharan African person as sub-Saharan African? When you see a sub-Saharan African person in london for example, is it only the hair that helps you recognize the sub-Saharan element in him/her? In My opinion by the way, hair is not an invalid element for a classification to be based on.
Also if sub-Saharan Africans are so diverse in looks, why is it possible for the people of African diaspora (majority of whom came from west Africa) to find a connection with another part of Africa (Egypt) based on looks, as written in Rakasnumberone's post here :
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a photo album.


Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

I also can't think of any feature or trait that's supposedly characteristic of any non-African population that isn't present among populations in Africa.
If this is the case, a Chinese, a Russian ....etc person can easily blend into the local population when he/she visits any part of sub-Saharan Africa or vice versa. Rakasnumberone seems to disagree with you here:
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

What people of African descent have maintained and still do is that ALL the types you showed are native Africans. As you can see, none of those peoples would ever be mistaken for anything other than an African. They are not Europeans, they are not Asians and they would never be mistaken for Indians even though Indians are also dark.
  You can always find a single isolated trait or feature which happens to be common in one group, to be present in random individuals in other groups (not only in the sub-Saharan Africans) of humanity as well, however it is the combinations of certain features and traits which make the difference between groups, and make it possible to roughly recognize the origin of a person. The point is that you would never think that a Russian, a Chinese ....etc person is African or vice versa when you see one.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Fundamentally, the human species is relatively young and hasn't gone through any significant changes yet.
  Yes, the modern humans are young as a species, but whether you call a change significant or not is subjective. Humanity has definitely gone through changes. The difference in my opinion with modern humans and other species is that humans have occupied the world and have started interaction within each other between the settlers of different regions/continents, in a much faster pace than other species due to the advance they had in their brains, which did not give any change a chance to be isolated long enough to develop from a change within a species to a characteristic of a whole new species.  Nevertheless there definitely have been many changes within modern humanity since they first appeared. Enough so that you can roughly tell where the origin of one is by looks.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley


There have been a couple of regional bottlenecks where local diversity was lost, but nothing significant has been added to the gene pool that isn't present in the source population (Africa).
This can be true but also can be not true. In short, it is still a mystery. Nobody can tell yet whether all characteristics present in the world appeared before or after modern humanity left Africa, or to what extent before and to what extent after.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Whatever apparent differences there are between various populations are so superficial
Now it is time for you to make the case to me why you think the diversity visible to the eyes are only superficial and would not be reflective of or correspond to what is inside. To do this you have to show that externally visible characteristics are not controlled by  internal elements such as the genome. You have to also note that genetic science is still very young and is only able to show the tip of the iceberg at its present stage.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

and mutable,
Yes, we are a living organism just like other beings we share the planet with. One of the main characteristics of living organisms is that their cells are in constant change. This does not however mean that we can not try to identify a living organism at a certain time and a certain place
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

and flow so gradually into each other,
We have to distinguish which gradual flows and which elements are due to intermixing, and which ones are due to natural gradual change. Both can be the case depending on the region and the physical element in question. If we consider humanity as a tree, there are regions where two different branches meet and create a gradual flow by merging, and regions where one branch grows different smaller branches gradually.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

that any attempt to classify them has to be largely subjective.
Yes it is subjective depending on which aspect(s)/element(s) the focus is on.  For example we can think of two ways of classifying humanity, by mtDNA/Y-chromosome haplogroups and by lactose tolerance/intolerance. Depending on which one of them you focus on and which method  you use, the classifications can differ significantly and they would not match with each other at all, but neither is wrong. There can be numerous classifications and all of them to be right. With regards to craniology, despite the fact that it was abused and used in a morally wrong way in some places, it is a very valid method in biological anthoropology. The fact that the whole evolution of hominid species was mapped out using this method speaks for itself. The question is, can the validity of the method be separated from the emotional turmoil its abuse in the past causes? Can the Nazi abuse of Swastika be separated from the validity of Swastika in Hinduism, Buddhism and many cultures in the world?  This completely depends on the individual, and also is in many cases, controlled by the political situation of the given place and time.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

As regards Dr. Hawass, the fact of the matter is that it's perfectly legitimate to debate the skin pigmentation chosen for the bust shown at the top of this thread.
I don't think he is opposing the debate itself. He is opposing one side of the debate. That is as you wrote, perfectly legitimate, yet all kinds of accusations are directed at him because of what he says, in places where he doesn't even read, such as in this thread.  Since he is Egyptian and a scholar/archaeologist while the side he is opposing to are US black activists (as written in the top article) in a subject regarding ancient Egypt, my sympathies go for him.  
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Although the pigment chosen is a possibility, it's definitely at the lighter end of the spectrum compared to modern-day Egyptians.
That is the point, it is not beyond the spectrum, and it is as much possible that what he and his coworkers chose was based on scholarly grounds rather than what some members here accuse him of.
 
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Dr. Hawass is a well-respected Egyptologist, but he's also a supremely media-conscious man who, as far as I can tell, has never met a camera he didn't like (countless Discovery Channel documentaries feature ridiculous b-roll of Dr. Hawass climbing in and out of caverns, and doing his very best Indiana Jones impression). He's not above courting controversy to stimulate interest in his field.
If Mr.Zahi Hawass' scholarly opinions were same as your opinions, would you still have judged his personality? Based on the impressions you get from Television?




To Rakasnumberone.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I'm really not too certain what Afrocentrism is supposed to be. I've encountered some really bizarre characters and theories claiming to be Afrocentric, but I wonder if this isn't a case of a legitimate cultural and intellectual movement being hijacked by some fringe elements. In any case, if the issue is to foster a legitimate reevaluation of African culture, people and history, both on the continent and diaspora, honoring the complexities of these cultures, I'm for it. If all it is is just the flip side of a white supremacist coin, then I want nothing to do with it at all.

I agree. I put "Afrocentrism" in quotes because I'm not sure the word actually has any meaning beyond what people who don't like it say it means.
I used to have the same opinion as the quote above regarding Afrocentrism. However I found an article in National Geographic website which describes Afrocentrism and realized that your posts fit really well with the descriptions given in it.  It is very ironic because you provided me (who was not sure what Afrocentrism was and if it really existed), with very good examples of Afrocentrism with your own posts.

Here is the article: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/geopedia/Black_Pharaohs - http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/geopedia/Black_Pharaohs
Afrocentrism
By Marisa Larson
By Marisa Larson, National Geographic staff

Afrocentrism is a cultural, academic, and political movement that aims to focus attention on Africa’s contributions to world civilization and history. Afrocentrists view this as a paradigm shift, commonly contending that Eurocentrism led people to overlook or in some cases deny that Africa’s rich achievements existed separately from European influence.

Afrocentricity has its origins in the work of African and African-diaspora intellectuals in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Afrocentric scholars sought to counter the prevailing view that sub-Saharan Africa had contributed nothing of value to human history that was not the result of incursions by Europeans or Arabs. The Afrocentric movement grew more political during the U.S. civil rights movement in the 1960s and later was frequently seen as a tool in combating social injustice, improving economic empowerment, and bolstering self-esteem in the African-American community. It also was used in the effort to create a more multicultural, balanced approach to history and sociology.

One way Afrocentric scholars sought to draw attention to Africa’s impact was to state that ancient Egyptian culture was African and its pharaohs black. According to Egyptologist Ann Macy Roth, Afrocentric Egyptology is less a scholarly field than a political and educational movement, aimed at increasing the self-esteem and confidence of African Americans by stressing the achievements of African civilizations, principally ancient Egypt. She describes Afrocentric Egyptology as having four main points: (1) Ancient Egyptians were black, (2) ancient Egypt was superior to other ancient civilizations, (3) Egyptian culture had tremendous influence on the later cultures of Africa and Europe, and (4) there has been a vast racist conspiracy to prevent the dissemination of the evidence for these assertions.

Ancient Egyptians didn’t think in terms of race as we do today. While the Egyptians regularly differentiated themselves from foreigners living around them, they did so in political and cultural terms rather than in racial ones. Foreigners were labeled by their regional or political names, and they were always depicted with distinctive features and dress. Though artwork did differentiate among populations by color, the distinction seems to have been merely descriptive, with no preference ascribed to any particular skin tone.

To describe ancient Egyptians as either “white†or “black†is inaccurate—they were of varying complexions and features. Scientific testing indicates that, just as today, they ranged from the light Mediterranean type to the darkest shade of brown around Aswan and farther south into Nubia. The likely mixing with neighbors due to intermarriage and political alliances created a heterogeneous population. Egypt’s relationships with its neighbors were also based on political concerns, not race or ethnicity.






Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


With exception of a few fringe elements, I don't think most Afro
Americans are under the delusion that they are descended from the
Egyptians. As I said before, its real significance is in showing that
certain ideas which were used to justify slavery and colonialism are
not founded in fact but fiction. Think of it this way. I'm old enough
to remember when women were prohibited from running in marathons in
this country because they were told that women were not physically
capable of doing such things. There was a time when women were
discouraged from seeking higher education because it was believed they
didn't have the mental capacity to do so and that trying would be
injurious to their physical and mental health. Now, if I were a woman
in the U.S. and I saw women in China who not only had higher education,
they were actually heads institutions of higher learning, it would give
me strength and ammunition to fight for my right to do so here. If I
was told that women were too weak to run long distances and I saw that
in Europe women not only run in marathons, the set records, it would
give me strength and comfort in knowing that what i was told was not
true. I would go about collecting as much information as I could find
on the achievements of remarkable women to show that the stereotypes
are nothing but cultural and political fabrications. I would feel a
sense of connection to those people, not because I believed they were
my actual relatives, but because like them, I too am a woman and so in
a sense their success is my success, or better yet an indication as to
what I can achieve. It would prove that being a woman is not a
hinderance to success in any way, physically or mentally.
Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all
peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily
connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no
African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that
no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of
significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of
people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in
our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a
photo album.

Originally posted by omshanti

This statement shows really well that the
connection the people of African diaspora (represented by you here) feel
towards Egypt is based on looks and external physical characteristics,
the very elements upon which are based the classifications they (you)
so furiously despise and try to deny.  Furthermore, based on physical
characteristics and looks,  there are enough elements in the Egyptian
population that people of Europe/west Asia (especially the
Mediterranean regions and the Arabian pennisula) can connect with as well, so it would be a double
standard to dismiss them by using the card of ''racism'' and
considering them as ''racists who use racist classifications''. 


You are not understanding the significance nor the context of what I'm saying.
The fact that you expect me to understand the significance and the context of the black and white issue in the US, the Slavery of African people in modern times, abuse of racial classifications, ''how racist the whole society controlled by the whites is'', viciousness of the  ''racist'' mentality in the US, how the white world is downplaying the blacks......etc when the topic at hand is about ancient Egypt, shows your stance regarding ancient Egypt, which fits really well with the description given in the article about Afrocentrism. The subject is about ancient Egypt and should be scholarly, and not tied with the sociopolitical issues of the black people in America.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

First of all understand that we did not create the system of racial classification, it was imposed on us.
The point is not who imposed what on whom or who created what first. This is not a children's argument. The point is that you (as the voluntary representative of all the people of African diaspora)  are basing your connections with ancient Egypt on the same principles as the people you call ''racist''. So I pointed  out that it is double standard.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Secondly, as I said before, we are not 100% pure blooded Africans. Race classification was created by the elite class of the majority ethnic group for the purpose of maintaining their position of power and influence by dividing the undercalss, (both black and white) against each other. Since the majority of the underclass were of European origin, the effort was made to get them on the side of the ruling class. To do this they made servitude a life long condition for people of African origin, while at the same time giving all whites a higher status. You have to understand that a great deal of control under slavery and later colonialism was and is psychological. No people are born racist. In order to get the majority of people to support it you must convince them and likewise to get a person to accept being a slave or colonized you must convince them of their inferiority.

You don't understand just how vicious this mentality is. Even if a person had only 1 black ancestor going back 4 generations they were still considered part of the black population. Such a person may very well look no different than a European and if their maternal ancestors were slaves, they were automatically slaves. This means that there were many slaves who were just as white as their masters in appearance.
Therefore the justification of racial discrimination wasn't totally based on the way a person looked. However, what we were told by the ruling society is that no Africans anywhere on the continent made any achievements. Dark skin was a sign of mental inferiority. Since intelligence is carried in the blood, anyone with any amount of African blood is of inferior intelligence.

Now when you are told these things by the society you live in for generations, there are many people who will believe it on some level. Certainly most white people believed it because that's what they were taught and although they resented it, so did many black people. But you see, this mentality doesn't just stop at black people. It was used to justify the exploitation of all peoples around the world who were not white. The widely believed theory was that all people who were not White Europeans were inferior. That includes you, that includes me, that includes modern Egyptians today, that includes Arabs, Chinese and NAtive Americans. Everyone who was not 100% pure blooded European was believed to be racially inferior. Therefore, if skin color is believed to be a sign of mental weakness, how can you prove the theory wrong? By showing people who are the opposite of what they say.

I made the comparison with women.    If it is said that all women are too weak to be athletes, how do you prove it is wrong? By finding a woman who is a champion athlete. Its the same situation with regards to Egypt. They said NO SOCIETY IN AFRICA ever produced a civilization. Well Egypt is a society in Africa. They said that no black skinned person or a person mixed with a black, no matter how small the amount, was capable of displaying any significant amount of intelligence. Well Egyptians are a people with black admixture. Some are darker,some are lighter, so that proves the theory false as well.   Do you understand? now? 
So basically you are using ancient Egypt as a tool to increase the self esteem of the people of African diaspora and to prove the intelligence of black people. This is exactly what was written in the article about Afrocentrism.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

If the connection you (as the representative of the
people of African diaspora)  feel towards Egypt is geographical (sharing a
continent) or cultural, then why so much focus on blackness/whiteness,
nativity/foreignness and the looks of people?


Because of the mind games that are played by the racist establishment. It is they who have created this whole mentality in the first place. To this day we are still judged by the color of our skin, facial features or ancestral background. If you say the Egyptians were an African people, they say no they weren't, they were Western Asians who migrated into Africa. In other words what they are trying to say is that these people were white because blacks are incapable of doing anything and not Africans because no African has ever achieved anything. No matter where in Africa you find evidence of intelligence, the racist establishment will try to claim it was the result of a white population who migrated there, hence the invention of the so called CAucasian Africans, but I'll say more on that later. This is what they did with Zimbabwe, the West African Empires etc. That is why we in response spend so much time pointing out the obvious.
What you wrote here is a very good example of the main point No.4 of Afrocentrism described in the article.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

Also what is the proper place for Egypt in your mind? Based on your
accusations directed at him in this thread, it is obviously very
different from that of the renowned Egyptian scholar/archaeologist Dr. Zahi
Hawass.


The proper place of Egypt is an African Civilization, not a so called Middle Eastern Civilization. The whole concept of a Middle East was invented by the colonialist mind. There is no such thing as a Middle East.
There is such a thing as the middle east. It just happens to be a sociopolitical concept rather than geographical/continental.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The Earth is a globe. So how can you point at any one section and call it the middle of something. It can only be the middle in relation to something else and for the colonialist that something was Europe. Therefore Middle East is judged according to how close or far it is to Europe.
It is not judged, it is named in relation to west Europe, which is natural because it was named by west Europeans. Naming and judging are too different things. If you have problems with the name, then create a new name for it and make it the convention. Whatever you name it, the sociopolitical zone is there.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

They ignore all the diversity in the region and indiscriminately lump everyone together regardless of ethnicity, language or culture.
You always talk about how diverse Africa is, so wouldn't it be ''ignoring all the diversity in the continent and indiscriminately lumping everyone together regardless of the ethnicity, language or culture'' to call them all African?
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Egypt was an African civilization which because of its geographical location was a crossroads between Africa, the Mediterranean, and Western Asia. However, they try to remove it from African by placing it in the made up "MIDDLE EAST" and try to deny the African elements in the population by classifying the peoples caucasians and claiming that they migrated into Egypt from the outside.
Egypt is geographically located in the African continent but it is also in a sociopolitical zone named the middle east. It is not a matter of choosing one at the expense of the other. They are both right. Similarly, many Egyptians do exhibit physical characteristics classified as Caucasoid by the method of craniology used in biological anthropology, but this does not necessarily mean that they migrated from the outside. They can be indigenous and be classified as Caucasoid. One does not contradict the other. Nevertheless, from what you have been writing, I can see that you have difficulty accepting that a group of people classified as Caucasoids can be indigenous to the African continent. You basically have a very restricted notion of which physical type can be native to Africa and which can not, despite the fact that you always state how diverse the people in Africa are.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As for Hawas, understand something. i travel to Egypt almost annually since 1988. I live with Egyptians, I work with them and I know historians in Egypt who know him and have dealt with him. He is not without bias he is the spokes person of the government, which is a military dictatorship. They control every aspect of the media and life in the country because they are very concerned with the image that the world, in particular, the west has of them. They want to be seen as being part of the Western society, not Africa. Why? Realize that Egypt is a former colony of the European colonialists, first the French then the English and so they have suffered the sting of racism and the brainwashing that happens within the educational system put in place by the colonizers. They were made painfully aware that they were regarded as a non white people who were inferior to Europeans in every way. Therefore they were aware of the way Africa was viewed in the eyes of the colonizers. Because of that and the additional stigma of the African slave trade, there are many Egyptians who try to distance themselves as far as they can from being associated with Africa, which they see as being backward and inferior. The ruling elite of Egypt today, (of which Hawas is a member) and those who aspire to be in that class, have adopted a European lifestyle and aesthetic. I have friends who went to the top Jesuit schools in Egypt and to this day they are still taught that European culture is the hallmark of sophistication and civilization, while the native customs of their country are barbaric and primitive. You have to dig a little deeper and know something about the societies in question and not take things on face value.
This also fits the main point No.4 in the article. It is always the society or someone who disagrees with you that has a ''racist bias''. Are you yourself free of bias regarding Egypt?



Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

This is entirely different from
what the person in the second video said. He never used the words
'indigenous' or 'native', and  never said that the ''indigenous
population was a native east African one''. The closest sentence to
this was when he said ''there is no evidence to suggest that Egypt is
anything but of local origin, of north east African origin in its place
and in its time''. 


No this is EXACTLY what the speaker in the second video said. "Local origin" means the exact same thing as native or indigenous. What he is saying in effect, is that the old theory that Egypt was founded by people who migrated into Africa is false. There is evidence to show they traded with people in Mesopotamia, but no evidence to show that the population of Egypt came anywhere else except East Africa. In other words, they were Africans. A people originating in the African continent, not a people who migrated in.
You said it yourself without even realizing. By ''Egypt'' the speaker was addressing the civilization, that ''there is no evidence to suggest that Egypt is anything but of local origin, of north east African origin in its place and in its time'', yet you took it to mean the population. Regarding the population, he did say : '' I do think its possible to look at modern DNA profiles and in essence determine what most likely are due to external influences of more recent time depths vs more ancient influences perhaps even going back to the paleolithic times.''. This statement shows that he does not know any study yet that shows who is indigenous. So how could he have said  that ''the indigenous population was a native east African one''  as you claim him to have. Both Mr.Zahi Hawass and the second speaker admit that it is very hard to determine the make up of the ancient population. So how can you state so surely who is indigenous and who is not when even scholars can not?
You also seem to have the tendency to always miss the word 'north' before 'east African'.



Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

I notice from your posts that while you always push the diversity of
the ''modern population'' forward, your main focus underneath all is
that before all the external influences, the indigenous population was
''native east African'', whose skin colour was lightened by the foreigners.


And so what is the problem with that? It is the truth.
So you are 100% sure that the Indigenous people in Egypt looked like the Nubians, Somalis or Ethiopeans before the external influences? The truth is that even the scholars have difficulty determining how ancient people looked like, yet you are so sure about it and have convinced yourself that this is the truth.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

How else do you explain the vast variety of skin tones in the population? Who else do you explain the fact that in many families the skin tones range from light to dark? The fact that some members in a family have straight hair while others have kinky hair? Admixture.
Yes, admixture, but this answer is completely different from ''the indigenous population was a native east African one who looked like the Nubians, Somalis or Ethiopians''. The former answer (admixture) does explain it but the latter is not the only possible explanation. It is also possible that the lighter people were the indigenous ones who were darkened by external influences, or that both lighter and darker people were indigenous to different parts of Egypt. The fact that people are mixed and show diversity within families does not prove anything regarding who was indigenous and who was external.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

It doesn't mean that they are any less Egyptian than a person who is dark.
No it doesn't, but this aside, your statement here really shows that you have really convinced yourself that the dark ones in the country are the indigenous ones.

 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Egypt lies at a cross roads, and so its population was drawn from many areas. Yes the oldest population was the local East African types,
Here you go again. Why do you always say east African instead of north east African? Why do you try to ignore the 'north' part in spite of the fact that it adds to the accuracy with regards to describing Egypt's location in the African continent? Perhaps ''Egypt has to be put in its proper place'' in your mind too.
  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

but over the course of its history from very archaic times, there were other people who did come into the country, either by migration or conquest. Therefore what is a real Egyptian? A real Egyptian is the total of all the forces that have impacted on the creation of the country as a whole. All the populations and the mixing of all those elements. They are all Egyptian regardless of skin color. They all share a common history culture and way of life and that is what really makes them Egyptian. Therefore a person who is light skinned is NOT a foreigner, they are Egyptian because they have been totally integrated into every aspect of the society and have been intermarrying within the society, so they are connected not only by geography, nationality but by blood as well.
The fact that you say that ''a person who is light skinned is not a foreigner, they are Egyptian because they have been totally integrated'' shows again that you think the lighter people are not indigenous to Egypt.
Also here in the quote below
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Tyranos

Hawass against Afrocentrism video:http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1414281487


Interesting and informative video. However, I think Hawas's comments are reflective of a cultural misunderstanding of what people mean when they say black in the context of the Egyptians. The reason is that Egyptian society does not have nor has it ever had a concept nor a need to classify its population into any particular group based on a concept of racial affiliation the way we do in the U.S. South African or Europe.
Therefore, when you say black to them, they think external skin color, not understanding that if you are speaking to an American, a person can have skin and features indistinguishable from a European and still be considered black or "negro" as was the case with Adam Clayton Powell and many like him.
you wrote that it is a misunderstanding on Mr. Zahi Hawass' part to think about skin colour when hearing black, but you yourself quite often end up talking about skin colours. So perhaps he had not misunderstood anything but had indeed addressed an existing issue.



Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

So I wondered, by ''indigenous/native east Afrian'' , which type of
features are you talking about? Also the modern state of Egypt is
comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is
quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural
regions would have looked different from each other physically before
they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east
African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?



Since the topic is about the looks of people and yet it seems that when
some members try to describe or suggest physical characteristics by
conventionally understood terms, they receive very strong and negative
reactions from some other members, I will post photos instead, of some
people from the eastern part of the African continent. Perhaps you can
tell me which one of them is the closest to the look of ''native east
African'' you talk about, and maybe you can even prove that the
phenotype you choose was indeed the indigenous one of whichever part of
Egypt you are talking about.I am sure many or most people are mixed and show characteristics
between all those phenotypes below but since you are talking about an
native/indigenous population before external influences, I picked
those  pictures/phenotypes accordingly.


You are right in that all these people are East Africans. I don't dispute this, in fact I agree with it. And it is much better to show actual photos rather than using broad terms. As you can see from the photos, because of the diversity of types in the areas, we should try to be more specific. The only problem is that the Nubian, Ethiopian and Somilis are classified as caucasians, which is misleading. They claim that only the phenotypes you showed of the Sudanese and Kenyans are Africans and that all the others are CAUCASIANS, meaning they a part of the White race, originating outside of Africa, but   What people of African descent have maintained and still do is that ALL the types you showed are native Africans.
''They'' are not here. You are communicating with me, and I posted photos without classifying a single phenotype in the pictures. Yet you are still going on about who should not be Caucasoid, who is not part of the white race, who is native African ....etc. Would you please reply to me rather than ''they''?

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As you can see, none of those peoples would ever be mistaken for anything other than an African. They are not Europeans, they are not Asians and they would never be mistaken for Indians even though Indians are also dark.
The Egyptian actor played the role of a Pashto Afghan in a recent film called The kite runner. The Egyptian family and the football team can be from anywhere in west Asia. Some of the Somali girls can be mistaken for Indians (as in from the Indian continent).

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Now with regards to the modern Egyptians you showed. I'll remind you of what I said about the fact that Afro Americans and by this I include all of Latin America and the Caribbean, not just the USA. We are not full blooded Africans, we are in fact mixed. Realize that there are many individuals in the Afro American community, in the States, Caribbean and Latin America who look just like these people.
The fact that the people of African diaspora who are mainly a mix of west Europeans and west Africans, look so similar to modern Egyptians who have none of these in their mixture, actually supports the classifications based on craniology, because according to the classifications, both can be considered mixes of  Caucasoids and Negroids. You are supporting the classifications you so despise without realizing.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The father could be my uncle and the son looks like my cousin and little brother. Understand that had any of the Egyptians in that family been living in the United States as recent as 45 years ago, they would be classified as negroes based on appearances and denied access to most public facilities and services which were reserved for whites only. As for the actor, there are millions of Afro Americans who are even lighter than he is.
I am sure that there are so many Mediterranean people (such as Italians or Spaniards) who are darker than the Egyptian actor. Nonetheless, when are you going to be done with comparing Egyptians with Afro-Americans? And how long are you going to classify people based on who would have had access to which public facility, who would have been escorted to the back of the bus ...etc in the united states 45 years ago. Would you mind showing the validity of the methods you are using to classify people, in the context of ancient Egypt? This part of your post fits the main point No.1 of Afrocentrism described in the article I provided.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

However you didn't provide here enough photos of modern Egypt, why? because those are just two of many many physical types you find in the country.
I had already given you the answer to your question when I wrote :
Originally posted by omshanti

I am sure many or most people are mixed and show characteristics
between all those phenotypes below but since you are talking about an
native/indigenous population before external influences, I picked
those  pictures/phenotypes accordingly.
so would you mind not answering on behalf of me to your own questions?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

There is no one phenotype or skin tone that is representative of the entire population. What you encounter in Egypt are people who for the most part are a medium brown like the family, but a significant portion of the population may be a few shades darker and there are many who are much lighter. One tends to find that the percentage of lighter people are in the Delta, while in Upper Egypt the percentage of darker people is higher. It would be better if we could see up close photos of the soccer team because then you would see what I mean about the diversity of phenotypes.

So when you look at the population, you see people who reflect the mixture of all the East African types as well as characteristics of Western Asians and Mediterraneans. So its not unusual to find people who look exactly like the Ethiopians and Somalis, or a very light skinned person with straight hair who has the same nose as the Sudanese actor.
I am not disputing the diversity and mixture of Egyptians at all. I have seen many Egyptians myself. I used to have an Egyptian friend who looked like the famous Italian football player Roberto Baggio but with a lighter hair colour. However, we are talking about the Indigenous population before external influences, not the present mixture.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

So when I say East African, I mean the Somali, nubian and ethiopian phenotypes, however, there was input from other groups as well.
I know that there was input from others as well, but we are talking about the indigenous people, meaning the first input. If you are saying that the input from the other groups took place at the same time as the very first input, that all the groups participated in the first input and in the making of the indigenous population, then how can only the Somali, Nubian and Ethiopian phenotypes be indigenous/native?
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

From the archeological evidence skulls of the Sudanese types have been found in Egypt in the earliest periods as well as types fitting the Ethiopians and Somalis. There have also been skulls that were similar to Mediterranean types found as well. So all this suggest just what I have always been saying, which is basically the population was made of peoples coming from different areas of the south, south east and south west. These were the first people there, but add to that people who did migrate in from Western Asia in the north and you have Ancient Egypt. Add to this mix all the populations of Persians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc and you get the Modern Egyptians. They are the sub total of all the historical events that have shaped the country.
So you do believe in craniology and studying the skulls. The very method upon which the classifications you deny are based.
You write that skulls of Sudanese types, Ethiopian types, Somali types and Mediterranean types were found, but in the next sentence you write that this all suggests that the population was made up of peoples coming from the South. What happened to the poor old Mediterranean type skull? Did it come from the south too? In order to prove something, you have to either give a very good logical explanation which leaves no room for other explanations/oppositions or show evidence. Would you like to direct me to a study or an article about the ancient Egyptian skulls, so I can see it for myself?  Did the skulls belong to the pharaohs or average people? How old are they?

By the way regrading south to north movement, I found an interesting article in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia
Recent studies in population genetics suggest that there was a south-to-north gene flow through the Nile Valley. [1] Similarly, linguistic evidence suggests that the Nubians in the Nile Valley were related to peoples originally from the south or southwest. Comparative historical research into the Nubian language group has indicated that the Nile-Nubian languages must have split off from the Nubian languages still spoken in the Nuba Mountains in Kordofan, Sudan, at least 2,500 years ago. [2]

According to this, the Nubians in the Nile valley originally came from central Sudan at least 2500 years ago, which means that they must have originally looked like the Sudanese people. However the Nubians in the wedding picture did not look like the Sudanese people but like a mix of Egyptians in the pictures and the Sudanese. Since according to the article, they came form the south and were not indigenous to the Nile valley, and we can see that their colour has lightened due to mixing with the people who were already there, the indigenous people in the Nile valley must have looked lighter coloured than today's Nubians in the region, which would be similar to the colour of the Egyptians in the pictures.


You also did not answer my second question which was :
Originally posted by omshanti

the modern state of Egypt is comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural regions would have looked different from each other physically before they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?




Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

If people would just simply admit that Egypt was and is what it is, there would be no controversy. But it is the continued attempts to remove it from the context of the continent by denying the darker elements that causes the problem.
As far as I can see from your posts, you are in denial of a lot of elements as well. The fact that every time you write about Egypt, comparisons with Afro-Americans or the African diaspora pop up show that you are not viewing Egypt from an objective stance either,  which is exactly the reason you are called Afrocentric.





Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

It is quite well known that according to population genetics based on mitochondrial DNA and y-chromosome, people in sub-Saharan Africa show greater diversity than the rest of the world. However mtDNA and y-chromosome prove absolutely nothing about external appearance or who their carriers really were because they make up a tiny part of the entire human genome. They are simply a very good tool to trace the movements of ancient populations because they mutate in a relatively fast pace, which also means that the longer the time of human occupancy of a region, the more diverse the mutations can be in that region. Since Africa is the homeland of modern humans, we can easily see that the humans have occupied Africa longer than the rest of the world hence the bigger diversity in their (especially the Khoisans') mutations of mtDNA and y-chromosome. Regrading externally visible physical characteristics (which the topic is about), I think that ''sub -Saharan Africa is more diverse than the rest of the world'' is a myth. We just have to pick a north east Asian, south east Asian, a Semang, an Indian, a European, a Papua New Guinean, a Melanesian, an Australian aboriginal, a Polynesian, a native American..etc person and put them all next to each other, and then also pick some people from any different parts of sub-Saharan Africa and do the same. We can then see which group has a greater diversity in their looks.

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I agree that mtDNA and y-chromosome studies cover a very small proportion of the human genetic code, but you would have to make the case to me why you think the diversity registered in that small part of the code would not also be reflected in the other parts of the code.


It's definitely not a myth that Sub-Saharan Africans are unusually diverse. Aside from curly hair, I can think of no feature or trait that is characteristic of Sub-Saharan Africans in general. I also can't think of any feature or trait that's supposedly characteristic of any non-African population that isn't present among populations in Africa.


Fundamentally, the human species is relatively young and hasn't gone through any significant changes yet. There have been a couple of regional bottlenecks where local diversity was lost, but nothing significant has been added to the gene pool that isn't present in the source population (Africa). Whatever apparent differences there are between various populations are so superficial and mutable, and flow so gradually into each other, that any attempt to classify them has to be largely subjective.



This is exactly the point many of us have been trying to make as to why we are not comfortable with the term "negro". Its limited to one very specific physical type. The term negro and Sub-Saharan African are used interchangeably when in fact, as you mentioned there is a great range of physical types in the region. There is no one physical type that can be used to represent all of Africa below the Sahara. If we look at West Africa and choose three countries, Guine, Nigeria, and Senegal, you come up with at least 3 different physical types. If you go to Congo, Malawi and South Africa, you will find different types as well. This negro thing is another example of what I talked about of the West's attempt to homogenize people by creating imaginary regions and pretending that they are all the same in terms of language, culture and physical type. It is not true or accurate. Therefore, they come to Africa with preconceived notions of what an "African" should be and when they encounter people who do not fit their artificial model, they either pretend they don't exist or try to make them somehow a part of a non African group.
If the sub-Saharan African people are so diverse, how can you (as a voluntary representative of the people of African diaspora) connect with Egyptians based on looks. If it is possible for you to connect with Egyptians the way you do, then it means that there is a certain unity between the looks of sub-Saharan African people, which consequently supports the classifications you despise and deny. So which one is it? Are the sub-Saharan Africans so diverse or do you support the classifications by connecting yourself with Egyptians?


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 02:26

First of all, I don't speak for Rakasnumberone and he (or she?) doesn't speak for me. Since we're making rather different arguments in this thread, I'd appreciate if you didn't confound Rakasnumberone's discussion of the role "race" plays in culture and historiography with my discussion of the scientific basis for "race".

 

Originally posted by omshanti

Now it is time for you to make the case to me why you think the diversity visible to the eyes are only superficial and would not be reflective of or correspond to what is inside. To do this you have to show that externally visible characteristics are not controlled by internal elements such as the genome. You have to also note that genetic science is still very young and is only able to show the tip of the iceberg at its present stage.

By superficial I don't mean that outer elements are unrelated to internal ones. I mean the outer differences between humans are themselves largely insignificant. Humans the world over are amazingly unvaried in size, shape, features, behaviours, etc. compared to other species (even those with much smaller distributions). I suspect that the only reason anyone ever felt the need to sub-classify humans at all is that we're naturally attuned to dwell on the small aesthetic differences that do exist betwen each other.

Originally posted by omshanti

We have to distinguish which gradual flows and which elements are due to intermixing, and which ones are due to natural gradual change. Both can be the case depending on the region and the physical element in question. If we consider humanity as a tree, there are regions where two different branches meet and create a gradual flow by merging, and regions where one branch grows different smaller branches gradually.

I have no problem thinking of the human family as a tree - although, as you noted, it's a crooked, gnarled old pine of a tree - but I'd also like to make sure we're clear on what's represented on the branches. Sexually reproducing animals don't mutate by moving to a new place - they mutate by having offspring. So, the small amount of diversity that does exist in the human genome is a factor of generational time much more than it is a factor of space - and once again, humans spent much of ther generational time exclusively in Africa. So I don't see how you could create a human family tree that isn't heavy on exclusively African lines. When species do branch into sub-species, they're just as likely to do so within a single locality (to fit into different ecological niches) as they are to adapt to new environments. I don't see this ever happening to humans, however, since we're already as adaptable to any situation as we need to be.

Originally posted by omshanti

You can always find a single isolated trait or feature which happens to be common in one group, to be present in random individuals in other groups (not only in the sub-Saharan Africans) of humanity as well, however it is the combinations of certain features and traits which make the difference between groups, and make it possible to roughly recognize the origin of a person. The point is that you would never think that a Russian, a Chinese ....etc person is African or vice versa when you see one.

I agree with you that one can identify some traits that tend to have high incidences in particular regions - but there are plenty more traits that vary according to other factors than region. Additionally, there are many, many people in this world that you can't accurately place by "look", so I disagree with classifying people this way.

Originally posted by omshanti

If Mr.Zahi Hawass' scholarly opinions were same as your opinions, would you still have judged his personality? Based on the impressions you get from Television?

I respect Dr. Hawass' scholarship, but I don't consider him to be above human frailties or above criticism. Incidentally, I happen to almost invariably agree with Richard Dawkins, but that doesn't prevent me from having a sneaking suspicion that the man is an ass.

Originally posted by omshanti

Yes, we are a living orgasm
I'll have what you're having :)


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 07:30
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

Yes, we are a living orgasm

I'll have what you're having :)
I meant organism. You must have really laughed. This is so funny LOLClap. Sorry about this typing mistake and thanks for pointing it out. I edited it.
Now, back to the topic.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

First of all, I don't speak for Rakasnumberone and he (or she?) doesn't speak for me. Since we're making rather different arguments in this thread, I'd appreciate if you didn't confound Rakasnumberone's discussion of the role "race" plays in culture and historiography with my discussion of the scientific basis for "race".
Leaving aside the fact that you and Rakasnumberone had been in agreement with each other throughout the thread and that you only opposed the members who were disagreeing with Rakasnumberone,   I see nothing wrong in using another person's (Rakasnumberone's in this case) observations and opinions in order to point out to you that there are other views and possibilities than the ones you advocate. This is completely different from stating/implying that you speak for each other or confounding your discussions, which I never did.  Furthermore I quoted parts from Rakasnumberone's post which were his observations on people's physical characteristics, not about ''the role race plays in culture and historiography'', therefore they were appropriate for the discussion you and I were having about the ''scientific'' basis for race unless you say that somehow people's physical characteristics are some kind of ethereal factors beyond the ''scientific'' realm.
''Scientific'' is a very subjective and a very conveniently exclusive word/concept, because it completely depends on one's view of the world/cosmos and current advance of science. I myself never consider something that the science at its present stage has not been able to explain or is in the dark about, as ''unscientific'' just because of that reason, and always try to remain open.
The fact that the results of the studies based on supposedly ''scientific'' methods such as the studies of the mtDNA/Y-chromosome can vary so much between each scientist also shows that something ''scientific'' is not necessarily more accurate or objective than something ''unscientific'' either. Thus, I personally prefer an objective, balanced and inclusive basis over a ''scientific basis''.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

Now it is time for you to make the case to me why you think the diversity visible to the eyes are only superficial and would not be reflective of or correspond to what is inside. To do this you have to show that externally visible characteristics are not controlled by internal elements such as the genome. You have to also note that genetic science is still very young and is only able to show the tip of the iceberg at its present stage.
By superficial I don't mean that outer elements are unrelated to internal ones. I mean the outer differences between humans are themselves largely insignificant.
As I wrote in my previous post, significance or insignificance of something is also a very subjective matter. What makes mtDNA and Y-chromosome more significant than the parts of the genome which control externally visible physical characteristics? In my opinion a balanced view is a view that takes into consideration every single aspect and factor possible than a view which considers one aspect worthy and another unworthy of attention regardless of the factors involved.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Humans the world over are amazingly unvaried in size, shape, features, behaviours, etc. compared to other species (even those with much smaller distributions).
As a species, meaning a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding, modern humans despite their relatively very young age on earth, are not necessarily unvaried in their size, shape, features, behaviours compared to other species. For example, lions are a species with a much longer existence than modern humans. They can not interbreed with other species of the felidae and produce fertile offsprings, just as humans can not interbreed with other species of the primates. As far as I can see they are less varied than modern humans, yet it was still possible to classify them into 8~12 subspecies. As far as variations exist (no matter how slight) in any aspect, classifications are possible, and modern humans certainly do not look like copies of each other. 
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

I suspect that the only reason anyone ever felt the need to sub-classify humans at all is that we're naturally attuned to dwell on the small aesthetic differences that do exist betwen each other.
Classifications are simply a matter of identification/comprehension, nothing wrong about the act of classification itself unless it is abused with a twisted motive. If you are against classifying humanity at all, than why not also oppose the classifications based on male/female lines too?
The fact that you write 'aesthetic differences'  about visible physical differences shows that you are more concerned with appreciative perception of them rather than taking the differences free of aestheticizing and for what they are. No wonder you are against classifications based on looks, because the moment you classify the differences with aesthetical attachments, you are grading the differences.
Regarding classifications based on externally visible physical characteristics, humans have evolved an extraordinary capacity for recognizing and remembering a large number of different faces. We need this skill partly because our extended social groups are large. They are larger, and the interactions between their members are far more complex, than those of even our nearest living relatives, the Chimpanzees. We have to be able to recognize many people. Failure to identify people you should know is quickly noted as a weakness. Along with the social advantages it provides, our ability to recognize faces enables us to classify what we see, and identify shared physical similarities within groups , and differences between one group and another. Clearly this can and does feed into our inclusive and exclusive group behaviour, and is what can lead us to discriminate against outsiders who look different. Luckily our insight into our own innate tendency to group and exclude, and the terrible crimes against humanity that can result from organized racism, have led us to take statutory and voluntary steps to control and proscribe such behaviour. A by-product of the fight against racism has been to render discussion of race taboo. Even the word 'race' itself, tainted forever by the Nazi era, is outlawed by many people as ''unscientific'', derogatory, meaningless, and given the misleading impression that races are discrete entities when in fact variation, gradation, and admixture occur everywhere. This is all very worthy , but the fact remains (as children are quick to notice) that people from different regions can look dramatically different from one another. In the end, putting race in quotes, proscription and regularly changing euphemisms do not help. Most alternative terms for race such as 'population' or 'ethnic group' are so vague as to be just misleading.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

We have to distinguish which gradual flows and which elements are due to intermixing, and which ones are due to natural gradual change. Both can be the case depending on the region and the physical element in question. If we consider humanity as a tree, there are regions where two different branches meet and create a gradual flow by merging, and regions where one branch grows different smaller branches gradually.
I have no problem thinking of the human family as a tree - although, as you noted, it's a crooked, gnarled old pine of a tree - but I'd also like to make sure we're clear on what's represented on the branches.
Actually, humanity can be represented by numerous trees, not only one. In each of the cell nuclei humans have tens of thousands of genes, each with their own history that can be mapped as a tree. The trees can also be based on more externally visible elements or even non-physical aspects such as the languages as well. Basically, there can be numerous trees each with a different shape and a different element represented on the branches. None of them are wrong. In order to understand modern humanity fully and to create a more accurate picture of the whole, one must take into consideration every single tree, rather than choosing or dismissing one or the other based on ''scientific basis''.  I explained this in my previous post as well, when I wrote:
Originally posted by omshanti


Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

that any attempt to classify them has to be largely subjective.
Yes it is subjective depending on which aspect(s)/element(s) the focus is on.  For example we can think of two ways of classifying humanity, by mtDNA/Y-chromosome haplogroups and by lactose tolerance/intolerance. Depending on which one of them you focus on and which method  you use, the classifications can differ significantly and they would not match with each other at all, but neither is wrong. There can be numerous classifications and all of them to be right. With regards to craniology, despite the fact that it was abused and used in a morally wrong way in some places, it is a very valid method in biological anthoropology. The fact that the whole evolution of hominid species was mapped out using this method speaks for itself. The question is, can the validity of the method be separated from the emotional turmoil its abuse in the past causes? Can the Nazi abuse of Swastika be separated from the validity of Swastika in Hinduism, Buddhism and many cultures in the world?  This completely depends on the individual, and also is in many cases, controlled by the political situation of the given place and time.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Sexually reproducing animals don't mutate by moving to a new place - they mutate by having offspring. So, the small amount of diversity that does exist in the human genome is a factor of generational time much more than it is a factor of space -
Yes, naturally and very obviously sexually reproducing species mutate by mating and having offsprings, but space also plays a role, because the greater the space the less chance for mixing/blending and more chance for isolation which can develop certain characteristics while driving others to extinction. 
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

and once again, humans spent much of ther generational time exclusively in Africa. So I don't see how you could create a human family tree that isn't heavy on exclusively African lines.
It is believed that just before modern humans left Africa over 70.000 years ago, their number was dramatically reduced to as few as 1000 breeding pairs due to a catastrophic event. Also before this happened, the major glaciation of 190.000~130.000 years ago had already begun to reduce the savanna range of humans/hominids, which they had roamed for 2 million years as hunter-gatherers. This had left them more vulnerable to the catastrophe. According to the study of mtDNA, out of the female lines that had survived the catastrophe, only one gives rise to all non-Africans. This is not because only one line left Africa but rather because only one female line survived out of Africa due to genetic drift which has a strong effect in small groups.  After that however, the population mushroomed and the female line branched many times to populate the rest of the world.  Now according to both Y-chromosome and mtDNA, after the initial modern human dispersals out of Africa, each old world and antipodean region became settled, and little inter-regional gene flow happened until the build up to the last glaciation 20.000 years ago. This created certain regional and intercontinental divisions, which incidentally do match the results obtained from craniology.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

When species do branch into sub-species, they're just as likely to do so within a single locality (to fit into different ecological niches) as they are to adapt to new environments. I don't see this ever happening to humans, however, since we're already as adaptable to any situation as we need to be.
As I wrote in my previous post, there certainly have been adaptations/changes, but after the initial settlements/isolations which developed them, modern humans managed to start the inter-regional gene flow by mixing long before any change had a chance to develop from a difference within a species to the characteristic of a whole new species, as it had happened previously between Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

You can always find a single isolated trait or feature which happens to be common in one group, to be present in random individuals in other groups (not only in the sub-Saharan Africans) of humanity as well, however it is the combinations of certain features and traits which make the difference between groups, and make it possible to roughly recognize the origin of a person. The point is that you would never think that a Russian, a Chinese ....etc person is African or vice versa when you see one.

I agree with you that one can identify some traits that tend to have high incidences in particular regions - but there are plenty more traits that vary according to other factors than region.
Those traits and factors can be taken into consideration as well (Would you please mention those traits and factors for me?).  As I have been writing, my stance is that every element/trait should be considered accordingly rather than one at the total expense of the other. We also have to consider
1) the likelihood and the degree of relatedness of people
2) distinguish between traits that occur in a higher probability within people who are closer to each other in their relatedness, and traits that occur randomly anywhere regardless of the degree of the relatedness of people
3) that people within a region have had much more chance up until recent times to interbreed than people from different regions.
If I put it simply, traits or combination of traits that occur more commonly within families/groups and traits that occur randomly in any family/group should be distinguished.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Additionally, there are many, many people in this world that you can't accurately place by "look", so I disagree with classifying people this way.
This is your personal experience/opinion which I respect. However that is not the case for me. I also have to inform you that I wrote 'roughly' rather than 'accurately' which I have highlighted in both our quotes.  Biological anthropology is my passion and the discipline I aspire to a career in. I have always enjoyed solving the puzzle of people's backgrounds and my experience as a classical ballet dancer also helps me to pay more attention to more physical details. From all this, I have developed the eyes for tracing people's ancestry based on looks.  The fact that people from the same family are more likely to resemble each other in their externally visible characteristics or looks, shows that looks are a very much valid aspect in tracing the degree of the relatedness of people and subsequently their origin(s).

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

If Mr.Zahi Hawass' scholarly opinions were same as your opinions, would you still have judged his personality? Based on the impressions you get from Television?

I respect Dr. Hawass' scholarship, but I don't consider him to be above human frailties or above criticism. Incidentally, I happen to almost invariably agree with Richard Dawkins, but that doesn't prevent me from having a sneaking suspicion that the man is an ass.
This means that when you are in agreement with someone's opinion, you do separate your judgement about his/her personality from his/her opinion. However in this thread, you are using your judgement of Mr. Zahi Hawass' personality (which is based on television) to discredit his scholarly opinion, because you do not agree with his opinion.  In short, when you agree with the opinion, you separate it from your judgement of the personality, but when you disagree with the opinion you don't separate them.




Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 08:38
After reading your very long reply I now remember why I spend so little time here. Although I must say, given the fact that we have spoken in private at length I am very surprised and disappointed not only in your tone, but at how impolite you are. Although I have been nothing but polite to you, you have been rude and insulting to me and repeatedly accusing me of basically being a black racist by addressing my by a term which you know I find offensive. Makes me wonder who you really are and if you and a certain person I've dismissed on more than one occasion are in fact one in the same person. Nevertheless, I will reply to your posts out of politeness. I have provided an overwhelming abundance of evidence to support my explanations, none of them being so called Afrocentric sources.

If that is the case, why is it possible to recognize a sub-Saharan African person as sub-Saharan African? When you see a sub-Saharan African person in london for example, is it only the hair that helps you recognize the sub-Saharan element in him/her? In My opinion by the way, hair is not an invalid element for a classification to be based on.
Also if sub-Saharan Africans are so diverse in looks, why is it possible for the people of African diaspora (majority of whom came from west Africa) to find a connection with another part of Africa (Egypt) based on looks, as written in Rakasnumberone's post here :
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a photo album.

What he’s trying to explain to you is that the classifications are problematic because they assume that the people called Negroes do not have any of the character traits that the people called Caucasians do. For instance, Negroes only have flat wide noses and thick lips, where as Caucasians have narrow noses and thin lips. The fact is that you find populations all across Africa who have thin lips and narrow noses as well. Not all Sub Saharan populations have these so called Negroid features. They have many different facial structures. So how do we recognize them? Primarily because they tend to come in many shades of brown not found in European populations and their hair tends to be much curlier. But these are only two characteristics. You can find sun-saharans with the same shape nose as you find in Europe, or Sub Saharans who have slanted eyes like Asians, you find Sub- Saharans with the same skull shapes you find in Europe, Asia, the Americas. Its not to say that the so-called Negro type doesn’t exist, just that it is not representative of the entire Sub Saharan population.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

I also can't think of any feature or trait that's supposedly characteristic of any non-African population that isn't present among populations in Africa.

If this is the case, a Chinese, a Russian ....etc person can easily blend into the local population when he/she visits any part of sub-Saharan Africa or vice versa. Rakasnumberone seems to disagree with you here:

You could tell them apart because of the total sum of features. But what he’s saying is that other than the skin or hair, there are no features that are exclusive to Sub Saharans. For instance, You can find Sub Saharans with the same eye shape as a Chinese, or Mongolian. You can find a Sub Saharan that has the same head shape as a Russian, even though there is a big difference between the skin color and hair structure of the two. In other words, there are differences, but there can also be similarities as well when looking at other features.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

As regards Dr. Hawass, the fact of the matter is that it's perfectly legitimate to debate the skin pigmentation chosen for the bust shown at the top of this thread.
I don't think he is opposing the debate itself. He is opposing one side of the debate. That is as you wrote, perfectly legitimate, yet all kinds of accusations are directed at him because of what he says, in places where he doesn't even read, such as in this thread. Since he is Egyptian and a scholar/archaeologist while the side he is opposing to are US black activists (as written in the top article) in a subject regarding ancient Egypt, my sympathies go for him.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Although the pigment chosen is a possibility, it's definitely at the lighter end of the spectrum compared to modern-day Egyptians.
That is the point, it is not beyond the spectrum, and it is as much possible that what he and his coworkers chose was based on scholarly grounds rather than what some members here accuse him of.

But you see, this is the point. Why did they choose the least likely color in the population rather than the color one is most likely to encounter? Why didn’t they base it on the average color of the people who live in Upper Egypt when Tut was in fact an Upper Egyptian? Also, why was this the only recreation that was shown? The Americans made a recreation, as did the Egyptians themselves. It is not a precise science. Why then didn’t they show all the recreations and explain the limitations of the science rather than showing only one and leading the public to believe that it is a 100% accurate representation when in fact it is not?

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Dr. Hawass is a well-respected Egyptologist, but he's also a supremely media-conscious man who, as far as I can tell, has never met a camera he didn't like (countless Discovery Channel documentaries feature ridiculous b-roll of Dr. Hawass climbing in and out of caverns, and doing his very best Indiana Jones impression). He's not above courting controversy to stimulate interest in his field.

If Mr.Zahi Hawass' scholarly opinions were same as your opinions, would you still have judged his personality? Based on the impressions you get from Television?

I can’t speak for Bernard, but for myself, yes I would. Simply based on what other Egyptians in his field have told me about him and what people who have dealt with him personally have told me. A person’s academic or professional credentials have nothing to do with their personal character.


To Rakasnumberone.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I'm really not too certain what Afrocentrism is supposed to be. I've encountered some really bizarre characters and theories claiming to be Afrocentric, but I wonder if this isn't a case of a legitimate cultural and intellectual movement being hijacked by some fringe elements. In any case, if the issue is to foster a legitimate reevaluation of African culture, people and history, both on the continent and diaspora, honoring the complexities of these cultures, I'm for it. If all it is is just the flip side of a white supremacist coin, then I want nothing to do with it at all.

I agree. I put "Afrocentrism" in quotes because I'm not sure the word actually has any meaning beyond what people who don't like it say it means.
I used to have the same opinion as the quote above regarding Afrocentrism. However I found an article in National Geographic website which describes Afrocentrism and realized that your posts fit really well with the descriptions given in it. It is very ironic because you provided me (a person who was not sure what Afrocentrism was and if it really existed), with very good examples of Afrocentrism with your own posts.

Here is the article: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/geopedia/Black_Pharaohs
Afrocentrism
By Marisa Larson
By Marisa Larson, National Geographic staff

Afrocentrism is a cultural, academic, and political movement that aims to focus attention on Africa’s contributions to world civilization and history. Afrocentrists view this as a paradigm shift, commonly contending that Eurocentrism led people to overlook or in some cases deny that Africa’s rich achievements existed separately from European influence.

Afrocentricity has its origins in the work of African and African-diaspora intellectuals in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Afrocentric scholars sought to counter the prevailing view that sub-Saharan Africa had contributed nothing of value to human history that was not the result of incursions by Europeans or Arabs. The Afrocentric movement grew more political during the U.S. civil rights movement in the 1960s and later was frequently seen as a tool in combating social injustice, improving economic empowerment, and bolstering self-esteem in the African-American community. It also was used in the effort to create a more multicultural, balanced approach to history and sociology.

One way Afrocentric scholars sought to draw attention to Africa’s impact was to state that ancient Egyptian culture was African and its pharaohs black. According to Egyptologist Ann Macy Roth, Afrocentric Egyptology is less a scholarly field than a political and educational movement, aimed at increasing the self-esteem and confidence of African Americans by stressing the achievements of African civilizations, principally ancient Egypt. She describes Afrocentric Egyptology as having four main points: (1) Ancient Egyptians were black, (2) ancient Egypt was superior to other ancient civilizations, (3) Egyptian culture had tremendous influence on the later cultures of Africa and Europe, and (4) there has been a vast racist conspiracy to prevent the dissemination of the evidence for these assertions.

Ancient Egyptians didn’t think in terms of race as we do today. While the Egyptians regularly differentiated themselves from foreigners living around them, they did so in political and cultural terms rather than in racial ones. Foreigners were labeled by their regional or political names, and they were always depicted with distinctive features and dress. Though artwork did differentiate among populations by color, the distinction seems to have been merely descriptive, with no preference ascribed to any particular skin tone.

To describe ancient Egyptians as either “white†or “black†is inaccurate—they were of varying complexions and features. Scientific testing indicates that, just as today, they ranged from the light Mediterranean type to the darkest shade of brown around Aswan and farther south into Nubia. The likely mixing with neighbors due to intermarriage and political alliances created a heterogeneous population. Egypt’s relationships with its neighbors were also based on political concerns, not race or ethnicity.


Okay, here’s the thing, there is very little here that I believe. : “(1) Ancient Egyptians were blackâ€. I believe that using the term “BLACK†is too simplistic a term. I think you are confusing my explanation for what is considered Black in the U.S. context, for what I believe they were or were not. When I look at Egypt I look at it from the perspective of it’s 3,000 yr history as a whole. Therefore, even though I do believe that the first population in the region was a dark skinned one, I don’t believe they were 100% uniform or pure throughout their entire 3,000 yr history. I recognize the fact that racial identification the way we think of it today did not exist back then. I also recognize that the U.S. definition of blackness is not one that is universally shared or understood in other parts of the world. It is certainly not the case with Egypt today where each individual decides for themselves what is or is not Black. It’s not uncommon to hear an Egyptian say “I’m white but my brother is blackâ€. Or a person who is dark skinned with kinky hair, who we would call black to say “I’m not Blackâ€. This is why I don’t use the term, especially on international forums. All I did was explain to you what the term means in our American cultural context.

, (2) ancient Egypt was superior to other ancient civilizations,

Although they were impressive, I don’t believe they were “superior†to any other civilization. I don’t believe in such concepts. Yes they had a very developed material culture, but there are other things that make a culture than the ability to make big buildings. What about their philosophy, world-view, social structure and organization, government, rights of their citizens and quality of life of their citizens? Therefore, while Egypt may have been superior in terms of its material culture and technology, it may have been behind other societies in the other qualities I mentioned.

(3) Egyptian culture had tremendous influence on the later cultures of Africa and Europe, and

There is no evidence to suggest that this is true. Yes, there was an exchange of ideas with the Greeks, Phoenicians, but there was not a major influence in their basic social and cultural structures. Likewise, there is no evidence that Egypt had any significant influences on other African societies other than Nubia which was its closest neighbor.

As for point #4. Yes, I do believe that because it is true. There has been a concerted effort to classify Egypt as a non African civilization. There has been an effort to deny the achievements of Africans in other parts of the continent, Great Zimbabwe being the most dramatic example. That has nothing to do with me. These are documented well know historical facts.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


With exception of a few fringe elements, I don't think most Afro
Americans are under the delusion that they are descended from the
Egyptians. As I said before, its real significance is in showing that
certain ideas which were used to justify slavery and colonialism are
not founded in fact but fiction. Think of it this way. I'm old enough
to remember when women were prohibited from running in marathons in
this country because they were told that women were not physically
capable of doing such things. There was a time when women were
discouraged from seeking higher education because it was believed they
didn't have the mental capacity to do so and that trying would be
injurious to their physical and mental health. Now, if I were a woman
in the U.S. and I saw women in China who not only had higher education,
they were actually heads institutions of higher learning, it would give
me strength and ammunition to fight for my right to do so here. If I
was told that women were too weak to run long distances and I saw that
in Europe women not only run in marathons, the set records, it would
give me strength and comfort in knowing that what i was told was not
true. I would go about collecting as much information as I could find
on the achievements of remarkable women to show that the stereotypes
are nothing but cultural and political fabrications. I would feel a
sense of connection to those people, not because I believed they were
my actual relatives, but because like them, I too am a woman and so in
a sense their success is my success, or better yet an indication as to
what I can achieve. It would prove that being a woman is not a
hinderance to success in any way, physically or mentally.
Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all
peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily
connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no
African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that
no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of
significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of
people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in
our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a
photo album.

Originally posted by omshanti

This statement shows really well that the
connection the people of African diaspora (represented by you here) feel
towards Egypt is based on looks and external physical characteristics,
the very elements upon which are based the classifications they (you)
so furiously despise and try to deny. Furthermore, based on physical
characteristics and looks, there are enough elements in the Egyptian
population that people of Europe/west Asia (especially the
Mediterranean regions and the Arabian pennisula) can connect with as well, so it would be a double
standard to dismiss them by using the card of ''racism'' and
considering them as ''racists who use racist classifications''.

No its not a double standard because I do not nor have I ever denied that those elements are found in the population because they are. The problem that I have is with people who say that Egypt was only represented by the physical types found in Western Asia and the Mediterranean and that the types we would recognize as African today, whether East African as represented by the Horn of Africa populations, or other types did not exist, except in those people brought to Egypt as slaves. What I’m saying is that it is historically incorrect to say that Egyptians didn’t have people with physical characteristics found in neighboring African regions, or that there were no cultural similarities between Egypt and its other African neighbors. To do so is racist and these ideas that would deny the obvious connections were created by people who had a racist mentality. This is a well known fact in academic circles. Listen, when we are talking about American and European scholars in the 19th and early 20th centuries, we have to realize that they were products of the prevailing culture of the time and at the time, the prevailing notion was that the White Anglo Saxon was superior to all other races. They had a bias which was reflected in their work, sometimes consciously sometimes unconsciously. If you find the remains of a civilization in a certain location, why would you believe that they must have come from somewhere else? Yet this is one of the major theories that was presented as fact and many times, still is today. In collage I took a class in Ancient Egyptian art. The professor started the class by talking about the origins of the Egyptians. He stated that the Egyptians originated in Arabia and migrated into the country by crossing the Red Sea. Someone, (A white person) asked him if it wasn’t more probable that they migrated north from the south. He said no it wasn’t. Someone else asked him what race they were. He said they had no race. So although he didn’t say they were white, he implies it by giving them an Arabian origin and declaring that the possibility of a southern connection didn’t exist. When I pressed him, he admitted that there was no evidence that the Egyptians originated in Arabia, it was just a theory. My question to him, was that if it was just a theory, why didn’t he say so and why then is it so hard to believe that there could have been a southern connection?

You are not understanding the significance nor the context of what I'm saying.

The fact that you expect me to understand the significance and the context of the black and white issue in the US, the Slavery of African people in modern times, abuse of racial classifications, ''how racist the whole society controlled by the whites is'', viciousness of the ''racist'' mentality in the US, how the white world is downplaying the blacks......etc when the topic at hand is about ancient Egypt, shows your stance regarding ancient Egypt, which fits really well with the description given in the article about Afrocentrism. The subject is about ancient Egypt and should be scholarly, and not tied with the sociopolitical issues of the black people in America.

You still don’t understand. I’m trying to explain to you what is behind the controversy regarding this issue of the racial identity of the Egyptians. To do so, I have to explain the cultural, historical and political context in which the concept of race as it exists in America originated. I do not expect Modern day Egyptians or anyone else to adopt the American label which, is based on an American social and historical experience. I only want you and others to understand what is meant by BLACK in our context. By the same token, on other forums I quite often have to explain to Americans both black and white, why the term Black is not understood outside of the United States. Racially identity is a societal construct and therefore different people mean different things when they use terms of description. The idea that one African ancestor makes a person 100% African is not based on science now is it? Pointing this out does not make me an Afrocentricist.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

First of all understand that we did not create the system of racial classification, it was imposed on us.

The point is not who imposed what on whom or who created what first. This is not a children's argument. The point is that you (as the voluntary representative of all the people of African diaspora) are basing your connections with ancient Egypt on the same principles as the people you call ''racist''. So I pointed out that it is double standard.

First of all I don’t know what you mean by “connection with Egyptâ€, since I have pointed out repeatedly that we are not descended from Egyptians. I understand what you mean by appearances, but understand that the whole argument as to whether or not Egyptians are Africans is based on an assumption as to what an African looks like. All I am doing is using the logic of the other side to show a point. If they say that Egyptians, Ethiopians and Somalis are not “negroes†and therefore, not Africans based on their craniofacial measurements, meaning thin noses, thin lips, then why are Africans in other parts of the continent and the diaspora whith the same features considered ‘negroes’? Shouldn’t they be Caucasians as well? The fact is that a high percentage of Afro Americans are in fact blended. Egyptians were also a blend. So if you are going to say that one group of blended people are black because they have at least one “black†African ancestor, why then does the same rule not apply to Ancient Egyptians who also have a black African component to their background as well.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Secondly, as I said before, we are not 100% pure blooded Africans. Race classification was created by the elite class of the majority ethnic group for the purpose of maintaining their position of power and influence by dividing the undercalss, (both black and white) against each other. Since the majority of the underclass were of European origin, the effort was made to get them on the side of the ruling class. To do this they made servitude a life long condition for people of African origin, while at the same time giving all whites a higher status. You have to understand that a great deal of control under slavery and later colonialism was and is psychological. No people are born racist. In order to get the majority of people to support it you must convince them and likewise to get a person to accept being a slave or colonized you must convince them of their inferiority.

You don't understand just how vicious this mentality is. Even if a person had only 1 black ancestor going back 4 generations they were still considered part of the black population. Such a person may very well look no different than a European and if their maternal ancestors were slaves, they were automatically slaves. This means that there were many slaves who were just as white as their masters in appearance.
Therefore the justification of racial discrimination wasn't totally based on the way a person looked. However, what we were told by the ruling society is that no Africans anywhere on the continent made any achievements. Dark skin was a sign of mental inferiority. Since intelligence is carried in the blood, anyone with any amount of African blood is of inferior intelligence.

Now when you are told these things by the society you live in for generations, there are many people who will believe it on some level. Certainly most white people believed it because that's what they were taught and although they resented it, so did many black people. But you see, this mentality doesn't just stop at black people. It was used to justify the exploitation of all peoples around the world who were not white. The widely believed theory was that all people who were not White Europeans were inferior. That includes you, that includes me, that includes modern Egyptians today, that includes Arabs, Chinese and NAtive Americans. Everyone who was not 100% pure blooded European was believed to be racially inferior. Therefore, if skin color is believed to be a sign of mental weakness, how can you prove the theory wrong? By showing people who are the opposite of what they say.

I made the comparison with women.    If it is said that all women are too weak to be athletes, how do you prove it is wrong? By finding a woman who is a champion athlete. Its the same situation with regards to Egypt. They said NO SOCIETY IN AFRICA ever produced a civilization. Well Egypt is a society in Africa. They said that no black skinned person or a person mixed with a black, no matter how small the amount, was capable of displaying any significant amount of intelligence. Well Egyptians are a people with black admixture. Some are darker,some are lighter, so that proves the theory false as well.   Do you understand? now?

So basically you are using ancient Egypt as a tool to increase the self esteem of the people of African diaspora and to prove the intelligence of black people. This is exactly what was written in the article about Afrocentrism.

No. I am not saying that. Remember, I started out by saying that we pay far too much attention to Egypt. It has a place in Africa, but not to the exclusion of all the other societies. It is useful only because it proves that the idea that there was never a civilization indigenous to Africa, (whatever you choose to call them ) is false. It also shows that the idea that Dark skinned African, (and racially mixed people especially if mixed with dark skinned Africans) are intellectually inferior and incapable of achievement is also false. That’s it really.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

If the connection you (as the representative of the
people of African diaspora) feel towards Egypt is geographical (sharing a
continent) or cultural, then why so much focus on blackness/whiteness,
nativity/foreignness and the looks of people?


Because of the mind games that are played by the racist establishment. It is they who have created this whole mentality in the first place. To this day we are still judged by the color of our skin, facial features or ancestral background. If you say the Egyptians were an African people, they say no they weren't, they were Western Asians who migrated into Africa. In other words what they are trying to say is that these people were white because blacks are incapable of doing anything and not Africans because no African has ever achieved anything. No matter where in Africa you find evidence of intelligence, the racist establishment will try to claim it was the result of a white population who migrated there, hence the invention of the so called CAucasian Africans, but I'll say more on that later. This is what they did with Zimbabwe, the West African Empires etc. That is why we in response spend so much time pointing out the obvious.


What you wrote here is a very good example of the main point No.4 of Afrocentrism described in the article.

Not really. There is nothing I have said here that has not been said by White European archeologists, historians and scholars. Neither of us are Afrocentricists. There is a very big difference between telling the truth of a situation and fabricating history to make people feel good.

I’ve provided you with three video clips. I hope you will take the time to watch them. They explain the very mentality I describe that was so prevalent and still exists in some circles today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBbMxJuAQY0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9jlPNVnKWA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAS3iBN9QsI

To state that there was racism is not to be Afrocentric. It is real, and it did and still to some extent influences the opinions of people with regards to how they perceive Africa and Africans. The opinions these videos reflect show this. Therefore, ask yourself, if this was the mentality that existed could they have possibly viewed Egypt with any sort of objectivity? How could they? They saw Africa and Africans only in terms of the primitive. Therefore, if this is what you have been taught to believe, when you see evidence of any achievement in Africa, it must be the result of outside influences.

The thing to do here is not pretend that prejudice doesn’t exist because it clearly does. The thing we must do is ask ourselves, why did it exist in regards to the way they viewed Africa and Africans?


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

Also what is the proper place for Egypt in your mind? Based on your
accusations directed at him in this thread, it is obviously very
different from that of the renowned Egyptian scholar/archaeologist Dr. Zahi
Hawass.


The proper place of Egypt is an African Civilization, not a so called Middle Eastern Civilization. The whole concept of a Middle East was invented by the colonialist mind. There is no such thing as a Middle East.
There is such a thing as the middle east. It just happens to be a sociopolitical concept rather than geographical/continental.

This is a concept that has been created by the Colonial powers which is still in use today. The people of the region did not invent it. I have no problem with using the term, but when it is used to place Egypt outside of the context of the continent, that is a problem because it is inaccurate. The Middle East is a region that includes Africa, Asia and Europe. Why then not say that it is located in the African section of the Middle East? It is always used as a way to fit it in more closely with Western Asia in order to deny any connection to Africa. So to be accurate, why can’t we say that Egypt is an African civilization located in the South West corner of the Middle East. Or we could say its located in the African section of the Middle East. Either statement would be true.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The Earth is a globe. So how can you point at any one section and call it the middle of something. It can only be the middle in relation to something else and for the colonialist that something was Europe. Therefore Middle East is judged according to how close or far it is to Europe.

It is not judged, it is named in relation to west Europe, which is natural because it was named by west Europeans. Naming and judging are too different things. If you have problems with the name, then create a new name for it and make it the convention. Whatever you name it, the sociopolitical zone is there.

Judged, named, it all means the same thing in this context. As I said, I can accept the term as long as we recognize that it is not some mystical zone but a region that covers several continents and the section where Egypt is located is on the African continent.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

They ignore all the diversity in the region and indiscriminately lump everyone together regardless of ethnicity, language or culture.
You always talk about how diverse Africa is, so wouldn't it be ''ignoring all the diversity in the continent and indiscriminately lumping everyone together regardless of the ethnicity, language or culture'' to call them all African?

When I use the term African I always explain that it is a continent that is marked by diversity. Both terms are problematic because they lead people to believe that all Africans are the same and all “Middle Easterners†are the same. I think when we use these terms we must first explain that these are generalizations. When I say Egypt was an African civilization, what I mean is that it was one of many distinct and unique civilizations found on the continent, not that it represents the continent as a whole. Egypt was not Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe was not Nok and Nok was not Ghana. It’s the same problem that causes most westerners to assume that Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are all the same people speaking the same language and having the same culture. So I don’t mind using any term so long as these facts are understood.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Egypt was an African civilization which because of its geographical location was a crossroads between Africa, the Mediterranean, and Western Asia. However, they try to remove it from African by placing it in the made up "MIDDLE EAST" and try to deny the African elements in the population by classifying the peoples caucasians and claiming that they migrated into Egypt from the outside.

Egypt is geographically located in the African continent but it is also in a sociopolitical zone named the middle east. It is not a matter of choosing one at the expense of the other. They are both right. Similarly, many Egyptians do exhibit physical characteristics classified as Caucasoid by the method of craniology used in biological anthropology, but this does not necessarily mean that they migrated from the outside. They can be indigenous and be classified as Caucasoid. One does not contradict the other.

I agree with what you say here for the most part, but you have to understand that many of the people using this term do not have the same understanding that you do and that is why I have a problem with its usage. This is what we call a loaded term, therefore, if we use it, we should be clear as to what it does or does not imply and not assume that people understand the context that we do.

Nevertheless, from what you have been writing, I can see that you have difficulty accepting that a group of people classified as Caucasoids can be indigenous to the African continent. You basically have a very restricted notion of which physical type can be native to Africa and which can not, despite the fact that you always state how diverse the people in Africa are.

No I don’t and if you re-read my statements you will see that I only disagree with the notion that if you see a person in Africa with these feature it means always means they originated outside of Africa. In some cases, such as the Arab migrations or other Western Asians, this is true, but in other cases, what we see are people who are not migrants but people originating from within the continent.

Like I said, you understand the difference, many people do not and are confused by it because of the way its used in lay language. First of all the term was created by an anthropologist whose basic theory was that the Caucasian race originated in the region of the Caucus Mountains and then migrated to other parts of the world. So based on this model African peoples who have those features did not originate in Africa but migrated in. My view is that we should not be talking about a negro race or Caucasian race because the entomology is flawed.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As for Hawas, understand something. i travel to Egypt almost annually since 1988. I live with Egyptians, I work with them and I know historians in Egypt who know him and have dealt with him. He is not without bias he is the spokes person of the government, which is a military dictatorship. They control every aspect of the media and life in the country because they are very concerned with the image that the world, in particular, the west has of them. They want to be seen as being part of the Western society, not Africa. Why? Realize that Egypt is a former colony of the European colonialists, first the French then the English and so they have suffered the sting of racism and the brainwashing that happens within the educational system put in place by the colonizers. They were made painfully aware that they were regarded as a non white people who were inferior to Europeans in every way. Therefore they were aware of the way Africa was viewed in the eyes of the colonizers. Because of that and the additional stigma of the African slave trade, there are many Egyptians who try to distance themselves as far as they can from being associated with Africa, which they see as being backward and inferior. The ruling elite of Egypt today, (of which Hawas is a member) and those who aspire to be in that class, have adopted a European lifestyle and aesthetic. I have friends who went to the top Jesuit schools in Egypt and to this day they are still taught that European culture is the hallmark of sophistication and civilization, while the native customs of their country are barbaric and primitive. You have to dig a little deeper and know something about the societies in question and not take things on face value.

This also fits the main point No.4 in the article. It is always the society or someone who disagrees with you that has a ''racist bias''. Are you yourself free of bias regarding Egypt?

Anyone who has spent significant time in Egypt or amongst Egyptians knows that what I am saying is true. I’d like to point out that what I’ve said about Egyptian society is based not only on personal observation and experience, but what has been told to me by Egyptians themselves. As I said my friends, who are Egyptians, went to these schools and this was what they experienced. As for the colorism in the society, it’s real. The question we have to ask ourselves is what contributes to the situation. We have to understand it why it exists, not deny its existence.

I’ve provided you with the following video which pretty much sums up what I and anyone who has spent time within Egyptian society know from experience and observation. Just incase the video link doesn’t work, I’ve provided you the transcript and website.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2007/07/08/amin.iaf.egypt.north.africa.cnn?iref=videosearch

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/07/i_if.01.html


â€(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) 

SHAHIRA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDNT (voice-over): Africa, surrounded by the Atlantic and Indian oceans, the Mediterranean and Red Seas, it is a continent awash in culture, religion, and languages. It also is rich in contradictions. And when it comes to African identity, the vast Sahara Desert draws a very distinct line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Sahara has been one main marker which actually divided the north and the south. And on that basis people can argue that North Africa, with a particular kind of history with regard to world historical events, are very different from sub-Saharan Africa.

AMIN: We took to the streets of Cairo to find out just what that difference is. 

Most of the many people we asked said they did not consider themselves African. In fact, many of them looked shocked that we would ask such a question.

So why the disparity?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a Mediterranean country, Egypt is much more attached to Europe on one hand, and as a country of the Red Sea, it is attached to the (INAUDIBLE) or Arabia in general. 

And in most history that is where the interaction with Egypt in terms of invasions or trade or investment or migration were all related to these two areas.

AMIN: And it is not just Egypt. The Mediterranean Sea has brought foreign influences ashore in North Africa for centuries, impacting not only culture, but also one of the continent's main religion, Islam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sufi orders are very common in countries south of the Sahara. The trend now in North Africa is the Wahhabi, Saudi Arabian influenced Islam has become prevalent in much of North Africa.

AMIN: It is not just natural influences at play.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Egyptians are racists to call us "unga-bunga (ph)" or "cunga-bunga (ph)."

AMIN: Historian Jill Kamil says this type of discrimination is partly a product of years of foreign rule, with it, an association between fair skin and the elite. 

JILL KAMIL, HISTORIAN: We have had the Greeks and the Romans, the Ottoman Turks and the Arabs, the British and the French, all have left their mark on Egypt. 

AMIN (on camera): So popular is the notion here that white is beautiful, that more and more women are girls are resorting to the use of these skin-whitening creams, which TV ads promise will make your skin fairer within a matter of weeks.

(voice-over): Add to this, the overall image of Africa as a continent of poverty, conflict and disease. And, say, experts, you have a picture of why some North Africans try to distance themselves from the continent that, like it or not, is their home.

Shahira Amin, CNN, Cairo.



Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

This is entirely different from
what the person in the second video said. He never used the words
'indigenous' or 'native', and never said that the ''indigenous
population was a native east African one''. The closest sentence to
this was when he said ''there is no evidence to suggest that Egypt is
anything but of local origin, of north east African origin in its place
and in its time''.


No this is EXACTLY what the speaker in the second video said. "Local origin" means the exact same thing as native or indigenous. What he is saying in effect, is that the old theory that Egypt was founded by people who migrated into Africa is false. There is evidence to show they traded with people in Mesopotamia, but no evidence to show that the population of Egypt came anywhere else except East Africa. In other words, they were Africans. A people originating in the African continent, not a people who migrated in.
You said it yourself without even realizing. By ''Egypt'' the speaker was addressing the civilization, that ''there is no evidence to suggest that Egypt is anything but of local origin, of north east African origin in its place and in its time'', yet you took it to mean the population.

But civilizations do not make themselves they are made by people and a population is made up of many people living in an area. You can’t separate the two things. Therefore, if Egypt was a civilization of local East African origin, it stands to reason that the people who created it were or local origin also.


Regarding the population, he did say : '' I do think its possible to look at modern DNA profiles and in essence determine what most likely are due to external influences of more recent time depths vs more ancient influences perhaps even going back to the paleolithic times.''. This statement shows that he does not know any study yet that shows who is indigenous. So how could he have said that ''the indigenous population was a native east African one'' as you claim him to have.

Read his statement again carefully. He said I do think it IS POSSIBLE at modern DNA profiles and in essence determine what most likely ARE due to EXTERNAL influences of more recent depth VS more ancient influences going back to the Paleolithic times. In other words, you can make a distinction between the native indigenous populations that were originally there and you can also tell which influences came into the country more recently. Therefore, what he is saying is what I am saying, the population of Egypt is made up not only of a local East African element, but elements that came into the country from other areas as well. The historical record is very clear as to who those people are and the various areas they came from and the time they arrived.



Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 08:48
Both Mr.Zahi Hawass and the second speaker admit that it is very hard to determine the make up of the ancient population. So how can you state so surely who is indigenous and who is not when even scholars can not?

What they are not sure of is exactly what percentage of the population was indigenous African, South West Asian, or a blend of the two. Neither do I. All I do know is that all these elements were there. Exactly what percentage of the population was “pure blooded†and what was mixed I can’t say, nor do I try to. I don’t know exactly at what point people started migrating there from Asia, but I do think it must have been very early. The reason, Egypt is connected to Asia by land. In prehistoric times all the peoples of East Africa, the Sahara as well as Asia were pastoralists or hunter gatherers. In any case, they depended on the animal and plant resources of an area. When they were used up or became scarce, people moved to areas of more abundance, so why would people from Western Asia have wandered in and out of Egypt? What was there to stop them? Especially when the Sahara was still green. On the other side, according to the most recent science, all humanity originated in East Africa. These people were dark skinned because they were tropically adapted to the climate. Eventually, people started to migrate out of Africa into other areas. One route of exit was across the Red Sea, when, due to the Ice Age, the sea levels were much lower. African and Arabia may even have been connected by land in certain places. Another route of exit, was the Nile Valley and Delta. There is no reason to suggest that southern populations didn’t migrate into the Nile Valley.

Okay, so now I'll tell you what my best friend, who is Egyptian, who is a biochemist, who was educated in the top Jesuit School in Cairo said to tell you. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FIND COLD ADAPTED PEOPLE EVOLVING IN AFRICA. EGYPT IS IN AFRICA AND ALTHOUGH IT IS FARTHER NORTH AND COOLER, IT IS NOT SIGNIFICANTLY COOLER TO CAUSE A DECREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF MELANIN IN THE BODY. EVERY ONE WITH AN EDUCATION KNOWS THAT THE FIST HUMAN POPULATION WAS A DRAK SKINNED ONE WHICH THEN MIGRATED OUT OF AFRICA. THE PRESENCE OF LIGHT SKINNED PEOPLES ANYWHERE IN AFRICA IS THE RESULT OF BACKWARD MIGRATION. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHOSE SKINS ADAPTED TO COOLER CLIMATES WHO MIGRATED BACK INTO AFRICA. ANY OTHER LIGHT COMPLECTED PEOPLE ARE THE RESULTS OF RECENT MIGRATION, LIKE THE PEOPLE IN MANSURA WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM THE FRENCH TROPS LEFT THERE BY NAPOLEON. EVERY EGYPTIAN KNOWS THIS.

Now since you need the education, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8edyoZFW-Lg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EyeNi6qsfs

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT WHILE WATCHING THIS PART: Is Egypt located in a cool zone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzGM1nv_oow&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCDcl9s9Vh4



You also seem to have the tendency to always miss the word 'north' before 'east African'.



Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

I notice from your posts that while you always push the diversity of
the ''modern population'' forward, your main focus underneath all is
that before all the external influences, the indigenous population was
''native east African'', whose skin colour was lightened by the foreigners.


And so what is the problem with that? It is the truth.
So you are 100% sure that the Indigenous people in Egypt looked like the Nubians, Somalis or Ethiopeans before the external influences? The truth is that even the scholars have difficulty determining how ancient people looked like, yet you are so sure about it and have convinced yourself that this is the truth.

And yet you don’t seem to be as outraged by those who suggest that the Egyptian population was a light skinned one and all the dark peoples are immigrants. Now why is that? You continue to argue for the presence of a fair skinned people how evolved in Africa, while at the same time using a term to describe them which implies that they originated outside of Africa. Don’t know about you, but all my maps show the Caucasus to be in Asia, not far from Russia. If you are so insistent on the presence of such a population in Africa, then its even more reason to stop calling them Caucasians.

As for “convincing myselfâ€. It’s not a matter of convincing but being familiar with the latest scientific information on human origins, evolution and migration. According to our information all humanity is descended from one maternal and one paternal family line that originated in East Africa. Its also accepted scientific knowledge that all the physical difference that we see, which we call race, are the result of climactic adaptations.

East Africa is a very hot environment. The area where the pharaonic culture originated is located in Upper Egypt and Sudan. It’s extremely hot there. It took me two years to get rid of the sun burn scars I got in Upper Egypt. The first humans were dark skinned Africans, the melanin being produced to protect the body from UV radiation. As people moved to areas where the sun’s rays were weaker, the body produced less melanin so that it could better absorb vitamin B. The suns rays are weaker in northern latitudes where it is colder than Africa. Therefore, pale skin is not a tropical adaptation. So if the population in Egypt was a native one, it stands to reason they were tropically adapted to deal with the hot climate. This is not Afrocentric rhetoric but current academic knowledge. So can light skinned people be native Africans? Well if they migrated there and have been living in the area for hundreds and thousands of years, well of course they become native. Where else would they live? Regardless of where their distant ancestors may have come from, the only place they know as home is where they live now and have adapted their culture and way of life to deal with the environment. As I said before, light skinned Egytpains were just as Egyptian as anyone else because they all shared the same language and culture.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

How else do you explain the vast variety of skin tones in the population? Who else do you explain the fact that in many families the skin tones range from light to dark? The fact that some members in a family have straight hair while others have kinky hair? Admixture.

Yes, admixture, but this answer is completely different from ''the indigenous population was a native east African one who looked like the Nubians, Somalis or Ethiopians''.

The historical record shows that the first humans were dark skinned individuals who migrated out of East African into the other parts of the continent and the world. So if the first humans were dark skinned Africans why is it so hard to believe that the first people in Egypt were in fact dark skinned Africans????

Furthermore Egyptian culture evolved in the South in the area stretching from Upper Egypt into the Sudan and that at one time Nubian and Egyptian culture were one in the same. Upper Egypt was more densely populated than Northern Egypt. The culture of the south dominated the North. Southern kings unified the country. So if the population was a local one and the first humans were Africans, who were dark, why is it so hard for you to accept logic? Its far more logical to conclude that they were the same color as the people living in that part of the world today.


The former answer (admixture) does explain it but the latter is not the only possible explanation. It is also possible that the lighter people were the indigenous ones who were darkened by external influences, or that both lighter and darker people were indigenous to different parts of Egypt. The fact that people are mixed and show diversity within families does not prove anything regarding who was indigenous and who was external.

Yes it does. What do we know of Egypt? We know that there was a steady migration of northern peoples into the country, which was accelerated with foreign conquests. Look at how dark the family in the photo is. If they were originally a light skinned population with only minimal input of darker peoples migrating in, they would be far more lighter than they are now. However, that is not what we see. In the North of Egypt which received the most European and West Asian migrants, the average color is a medium brown like the people in the picture, with a few very light individuals such as the actor. Even in Egypt today, very fair individuals are usually believed to be of foreign descent, usually Turkish, or are mistaken for being Syrian or Lebanese. Certain areas of the country, (all in the Delta) are known for the light complexion of its people, such as Mansura. Therefore, it is obvious that the base population was a darker one, who after centuries of mixture with lighter peoples still retain a dark huge although being on the lighter end of the spectrum. They are still are considerable darker than their neighbors in the levant.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

It doesn't mean that they are any less Egyptian than a person who is dark.

No it doesn't, but this aside, your statement here really shows that you have really convinced yourself that the dark ones in the country are the indigenous ones.

and your statement here shows that you have a bias and rather than accepting the most logical obvious truth, have gone out of your way to defy scientific evidence and knowledge of the early history of mankind to find cold climate adapted people evolving naturally in Arid and sub tropical environments. Seems to be that it is you not I who are rewriting history. The fact that you would go to such lengths says something.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Egypt lies at a cross roads, and so its population was drawn from many areas. Yes the oldest population was the local East African types,

Here you go again. Why do you always say east African instead of north east African? Why do you try to ignore the 'north' part in spite of the fact that it adds to the accuracy with regards to describing Egypt's location in the African continent? Perhaps ''Egypt has to be put in its proper place'' in your mind too.

How many times do you need me to say Egypt is located in the North East corner of Africa? This is not the first time you and I have discussed this now is it? Humanity originated in East Africa, not North Africa and migrated to the rest of the world from there. Therefore, since the first people in the entire world came from East Africa, then the first people in Egypt were native East Africans who migrated into the Nile River Valley. In time peoples from other areas in Africa found their way to the area, as well as peoples from Western Asia. Why do you have such a hard time dealing with this? It says far more about you than it does me. Especially since I am not the one repeatedly making assumptions or accusations about your character as you have been consistently doing with me. I must say it is disappointing since you and I have had many conversations in private on this and other topics. You know me far better than anyone else here, yet now you go out of your way to paint me as an undercover black supremacist. Would it be fair of me to accuse you of being Eurocentric? Lets stop with the personal attacks and focus on academic and scientific facts as I have been doing in my replies to you shall we.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

but over the course of its history from very archaic times, there were other people who did come into the country, either by migration or conquest. Therefore what is a real Egyptian? A real Egyptian is the total of all the forces that have impacted on the creation of the country as a whole. All the populations and the mixing of all those elements. They are all Egyptian regardless of skin color. They all share a common history culture and way of life and that is what really makes them Egyptian. Therefore a person who is light skinned is NOT a foreigner, they are Egyptian because they have been totally integrated into every aspect of the society and have been intermarrying within the society, so they are connected not only by geography, nationality but by blood as well.

The fact that you say that ''a person who is light skinned is not a foreigner, they are Egyptian because they have been totally integrated'' shows again that you think the lighter people are not indigenous to Egypt.

I am making reference to the modern population which is made up of many light complected individuals who are indeed of foreign descent, which is well known and acknowledged in Egypt by Egyptians to this day. If you go to Cairo in Ezbekiya between Ramses Square and Opera Square, you will see many members of a family with very fair skin, bright red hair and freckles. I just spoke with my friend Emad, you know, the educated biochemist from Cairo I mentioned before. He told me the exact same thing I told you. Everyone knows people like this are from Mansura in the Delta and general opinion is that they are descended from French and English soldiers.

As an example, this is a picture of two of my friends. The one on the right is very fair compared to most Egyptians and has light eyes. The reason is because he has considerable Turkish ancestry, which is what HE told me:


So if this is what the people themselves say about themselves, how am I making it up?



Also here in the quote below
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Tyranos

Hawass against Afrocentrism video:http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1414281487


Interesting and informative video. However, I think Hawas's comments are reflective of a cultural misunderstanding of what people mean when they say black in the context of the Egyptians. The reason is that Egyptian society does not have nor has it ever had a concept nor a need to classify its population into any particular group based on a concept of racial affiliation the way we do in the U.S. South African or Europe.
Therefore, when you say black to them, they think external skin color, not understanding that if you are speaking to an American, a person can have skin and features indistinguishable from a European and still be considered black or "negro" as was the case with Adam Clayton Powell and many like him.
you wrote that it is a misunderstanding on Mr. Zahi Hawass' part to think about skin colour when hearing black, but you yourself quite often end up talking about skin colours. So perhaps he had not misunderstood anything but had indeed addressed an existing issue.

He does not fully understand what is mean in the United States by the term Black. The fact that he keeps making reference to the materials the statues are made out of shows this. When Afro Americans show a picture of a statue, they are not talking about the dark color of the stone. They are calling attention to the features that are commonly found among African populations and people of African admixture. The shape and size of the nose:



lips:




the presence of prognethism:




the texture of the hair:





Hawas did not address the issue of features which shows he doen’t understand what they are pointing out.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

So I wondered, by ''indigenous/native east Afrian'' , which type of
features are you talking about? Also the modern state of Egypt is
comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is
quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural
regions would have looked different from each other physically before
they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east
African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?

Since the topic is about the looks of people and yet it seems that when
some members try to describe or suggest physical characteristics by
conventionally understood terms, they receive very strong and negative
reactions from some other members, I will post photos instead, of some
people from the eastern part of the African continent. Perhaps you can
tell me which one of them is the closest to the look of ''native east
African'' you talk about, and maybe you can even prove that the
phenotype you choose was indeed the indigenous one of whichever part of
Egypt you are talking about.I am sure many or most people are mixed and show characteristics
between all those phenotypes below but since you are talking about an
native/indigenous population before external influences, I picked
those pictures/phenotypes accordingly.


You are right in that all these people are East Africans. I don't dispute this, in fact I agree with it. And it is much better to show actual photos rather than using broad terms. As you can see from the photos, because of the diversity of types in the areas, we should try to be more specific. The only problem is that the Nubian, Ethiopian and Somilis are classified as caucasians, which is misleading. They claim that only the phenotypes you showed of the Sudanese and Kenyans are Africans and that all the others are CAUCASIANS, meaning they a part of the White race, originating outside of Africa, but   What people of African descent have maintained and still do is that ALL the types you showed are native Africans.

''They'' are not here. You are communicating with me, and I posted photos without classifying a single phenotype in the pictures. Yet you are still going on about who should not be Caucasoid, who is not part of the white race, who is native African ....etc. Would you please reply to me rather than ''they''?

I have been replying to you. You are using terms that were created by a certain group of people at a certain time and in a certain context and I am explaining to you why it is problematic. Now back to the topic and the point I was making...But since you don't want to hear it from me, you perhaps you will feel less threatened if a white person says it to you:

http://mutnodjmetsmusings.blogspot.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-daBOKyF4yM


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As you can see, none of those peoples would ever be mistaken for anything other than an African. They are not Europeans, they are not Asians and they would never be mistaken for Indians even though Indians are also dark.

The Egyptian actor played the role of a Pashto Afghan in a recent film called The kite runner. The Egyptian family and the football team can be from anywhere in west Asia. Some of the Somali girls can be mistaken for Indians (as in from the Indian continent).

Yes I know. I saw the movie and if you go back and look at it, you’ll see that he was miscast as far as physical type is concerned. The whole time I kept thinking to myself that he looked like an Egyptian, now I know why. The fact that he was cast in a movie means nothing. He is an actor telling a story. This was no a national geographic documentary. Didn’t you ask yourself how come he looked nothing at all like the character who played him as a child? How many people do you know who have pin straight hair as kids and crow up to have hair that is so curly its almost an afro in adulthood?

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Now with regards to the modern Egyptians you showed. I'll remind you of what I said about the fact that Afro Americans and by this I include all of Latin America and the Caribbean, not just the USA. We are not full blooded Africans, we are in fact mixed. Realize that there are many individuals in the Afro American community, in the States, Caribbean and Latin America who look just like these people.
The fact that the people of African diaspora who are mainly a mix of west Europeans and west Africans, look so similar to modern Egyptians who have none of these in their mixture, actually supports the classifications based on craniology, because according to the classifications, both can be considered mixes of Caucasoids and Negroids. You are supporting the classifications you so despise without realizing.

No I’m not. I’m showing the contradictions. How can one call an Afro American a negro, yet call an Egyptian of the same physical type a Caucasian? Where is the logic? Its hypocritical and shows the arbitrary nature of the ways in which these labels are applied and understood.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The father could be my uncle and the son looks like my cousin and little brother. Understand that had any of the Egyptians in that family been living in the United States as recent as 45 years ago, they would be classified as negroes based on appearances and denied access to most public facilities and services which were reserved for whites only. As for the actor, there are millions of Afro Americans who are even lighter than he is.
I am sure that there are so many Mediterranean people (such as Italians or Spaniards) who are darker than the Egyptian actor. Nonetheless, when are you going to be done with comparing Egyptians with Afro-Americans? And how long are you going to classify people based on who would have had access to which public facility, who would have been escorted to the back of the bus ...etc in the united states 45 years ago. Would you mind showing the validity of the methods you are using to classify people, in the context of ancient Egypt? This part of your post fits the main point No.1 of Afrocentrism described in the article I provided.

And when are you going to understand that my whole contribution to this thread has been to explain why Afro Americans see things the way they do? If I keep making reference to them it is because I am trying to get you to understand what they mean by the term black. I am trying to explain to an international community what is meant by black and why in an American cultural context. That is the whole point. I am explaining a perspective based on its cultural and historical context for a community of people who may not be aware of it. Now can you stop your childish antics and stop calling me an Afrocentricist unless you want me to start insinuating that you are a white supremacist with a chip on your shoulder. I think its quite unnecessary.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

There is no one phenotype or skin tone that is representative of the entire population. What you encounter in Egypt are people who for the most part are a medium brown like the family, but a significant portion of the population may be a few shades darker and there are many who are much lighter. One tends to find that the percentage of lighter people are in the Delta, while in Upper Egypt the percentage of darker people is higher. It would be better if we could see up close photos of the soccer team because then you would see what I mean about the diversity of phenotypes.

So when you look at the population, you see people who reflect the mixture of all the East African types as well as characteristics of Western Asians and Mediterraneans. So its not unusual to find people who look exactly like the Ethiopians and Somalis, or a very light skinned person with straight hair who has the same nose as the Sudanese actor.

I am not disputing the diversity and mixture of Egyptians at all. I have seen many Egyptians myself. I used to have an Egyptian friend who looked like the famous Italian football player Roberto Baggio but with a lighter hair colour. However, we are talking about the Indigenous population before external influences, not the present mixture.

Well then since you have such a hard problem with the idea that the first people there were dark complected, the burden of proof falls on you to show the presence of an indigenous light complected people originating in East Africa. Happy hunting.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

So when I say East African, I mean the Somali, nubian and ethiopian phenotypes, however, there was input from other groups as well.

I know that there was input from others as well, but we are talking about the indigenous people, meaning the first input. If you are saying that the input from the other groups took place at the same time as the very first input, that all the groups participated in the first input and in the making of the indigenous population, then how can only the Somali, Nubian and Ethiopian phenotypes be indigenous/native?


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

From the archeological evidence skulls of the Sudanese types have been found in Egypt in the earliest periods as well as types fitting the Ethiopians and Somalis. There have also been skulls that were similar to Mediterranean types found as well. So all this suggest just what I have always been saying, which is basically the population was made of peoples coming from different areas of the south, south east and south west. These were the first people there, but add to that people who did migrate in from Western Asia in the north and you have Ancient Egypt. Add to this mix all the populations of Persians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc and you get the Modern Egyptians. They are the sub total of all the historical events that have shaped the country.
So you do believe in craniology and studying the skulls. The very method upon which the classifications you deny are based.
You write that skulls of Sudanese types, Ethiopian types, Somali types and Mediterranean types were found, but in the next sentence you write that this all suggests that the population was made up of peoples coming from the South. What happened to the poor old Mediterranean type skull? Did it come from the south too? In order to prove something, you have to either give a very good logical explanation which leaves no room for other explanations/oppositions or show evidence. Would you like to direct me to a study or an article about the ancient Egyptian skulls, so I can see it for myself? Did the skulls belong to the pharaohs or average people? How old are they?

God this is getting tiresome. Let me say it again. The original population was a native African one, but they were not the only people in Egypt during its early history. There were also peoples from Western Asia who migrated into Egypt. Eventually they died, they rotted and at some time thousands of years later, an anthropologists dug them up and measured their skull. This article was written by the second scientist in the video clip. You know…the one who spoke after Zaki Hawas….. He is a professor at Howard University and is also affiliated with the Smithsonian Institution.

http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=318&mforum=africa



By the way regrading south to north movement, I found an interesting article in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia
Recent studies in population genetics suggest that there was a south-to-north gene flow through the Nile Valley. [1] Similarly, linguistic evidence suggests that the Nubians in the Nile Valley were related to peoples originally from the south or southwest. Comparative historical research into the Nubian language group has indicated that the Nile-Nubian languages must have split off from the Nubian languages still spoken in the Nuba Mountains in Kordofan, Sudan, at least 2,500 years ago. [2]

According to this, the Nubians in the Nile valley originally came from central Sudan at least 2500 years ago, which means that they must have originally looked like the Sudanese people. However the Nubians in the wedding picture did not look like the Sudanese people but like a mix of Egyptians in the pictures and the Sudanese. Since according to the article, they came form the south and were not indigenous to the Nile valley, and we can see that their colour has lightened due to mixing with the people who were already there, the indigenous people in the Nile valley must have looked lighter coloured than today's Nubians in the region, which would be similar to the colour of the Egyptians in the pictures.

A very good article, which you fail to understand, so let me explain it to you. It is not saying that the Nubians migrated into the area 2,500 years ago. What it is saying is that there are the languages spoken by the Nubians in the Nile Valley that originated farther south in Sudan. It is saying that the Nile language spoken now splintered off from the Nuba language in Kordofan 2,500 years ago. Its like saying that the Spanish language spoken in Spain today started to develop in a different direction than Latin at a certain date.

The first thing it says is that genetics show there was a south to north gene flow through the Nile Valley. Recent genetic evidence is once again saying exactly what I have been telling you all along. The Nile valley was originally populated by people moving up from the South.

Last point. Despite the amount of times its been told to you, you still don’t understand. Sub Saharan Africans do not all look the same. They are all different physical types. Sudan is made up of many different ethnic groups, they don’t all look the same. There are Nubians who look like the people in that picture, but there are also Nubians who have a more Central African look. It depends on which group they belong to. All of them are East Africans, but the Africans located to the farthest East are those in the Horn of Africa

Since you like pictures so much, here a last one for you. One of these people is an Ancient Egyptian and one is a modern East African person form the Horn of Africa. Can you tell which is which? Notice the high degree of similarity between them.




You also did not answer my second question which was :
Originally posted by omshanti

the modern state of Egypt is comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural regions would have looked different from each other physically before they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?


I did answer you when I said all of the East African types with the excetion of the Modern Egyptians who a re a blend of all the types you showed as well as people migrating in from the north.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

If people would just simply admit that Egypt was and is what it is, there would be no controversy. But it is the continued attempts to remove it from the context of the continent by denying the darker elements that causes the problem.

As far as I can see from your posts, you are in denial of a lot of elements as well. The fact that every time you write about Egypt, comparisons with Afro-Americans or the African diaspora pop up show that you are not viewing Egypt from an objective stance either, which is exactly the reason you are called Afrocentric.

You know what the problem is? Although you speak English very well, it’s clearly not your first language and therefore there is a lot that flies over your head when it comes to basic comprehension. I’m not trying to insult you, just stating a fact which I’ve made abundantly clear in the reply which at this pint is 34 pages long. As I have said from the beginning, I am only explaining the cultural and historical point of view of these people. What the term black means in an American context and why Afro Americans perceive them to be Black when they see them. That does not make me Afrocentric. I think it is extremely closed minded of you to not be able to objectively understand the perspective of a group of people just because it makes you feel insecure on some level. As I have repeatedly said on more than one occasion, race is a cultural construct. Do you even understand what I mean by that I wonder? Each society has a different way of defining who is what. In order to have any discussion about an issue of race, you have got to understand what the perception of race is in the context of that particular society. The original comments were with regards to Zahi Hawas’s statements. All I am doing is showing where the truths lay and where they do not. The African origins of this civilization made by Afro Americans is a valid one. The claims that it was superior to all other civilizations is not, nor is the claim that the Egyptians had influences all over Africa and Europe that are not substantiated by historical record. The claim of racism in the sciences….. for god’s sake anyone with even a high school education knows that. Look at the second video tape again. What do you think he means by “THE MISTAKES MADE IN THE PAST� He’s politely referring to RACIST ATTITUDES.





Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley


Originally posted by omshanti

It is quite well known that according to population genetics based on mitochondrial DNA and y-chromosome, people in sub-Saharan Africa show greater diversity than the rest of the world. However mtDNA and y-chromosome prove absolutely nothing about external appearance or who their carriers really were because they make up a tiny part of the entire human genome. They are simply a very good tool to trace the movements of ancient populations because they mutate in a relatively fast pace, which also means that the longer the time of human occupancy of a region, the more diverse the mutations can be in that region. Since Africa is the homeland of modern humans, we can easily see that the humans have occupied Africa longer than the rest of the world hence the bigger diversity in their (especially the Khoisans') mutations of mtDNA and y-chromosome. Regrading externally visible physical characteristics (which the topic is about), I think that ''sub -Saharan Africa is more diverse than the rest of the world'' is a myth. We just have to pick a north east Asian, south east Asian, a Semang, an Indian, a European, a Papua New Guinean, a Melanesian, an Australian aboriginal, a Polynesian, a native American..etc person and put them all next to each other, and then also pick some people from any different parts of sub-Saharan Africa and do the same. We can then see which group has a greater diversity in their looks.

<FONT face=Arial size=2>
I agree that mtDNA and y-chromosome studies cover a very small proportion of the human genetic code, but you would have to make the case to me why you think the diversity registered in that small part of the code would not also be reflected in the other parts of the code.

It's definitely not a myth that Sub-Saharan Africans are unusually diverse. Aside from curly hair, I can think of no feature or trait that is characteristic of Sub-Saharan Africans in general. I also can't think of any feature or trait that's supposedly characteristic of any non-African population that isn't present among populations in Africa.

Fundamentally, the human species is relatively young and hasn't gone through any significant changes yet. There have been a couple of regional bottlenecks where local diversity was lost, but nothing significant has been added to the gene pool that isn't present in the source population (Africa). Whatever apparent differences there are between various populations are so superficial and mutable, and flow so gradually into each other, that any attempt to classify them has to be largely subjective.


This is exactly the point many of us have been trying to make as to why we are not comfortable with the term "negro". Its limited to one very specific physical type. The term negro and Sub-Saharan African are used interchangeably when in fact, as you mentioned there is a great range of physical types in the region. There is no one physical type that can be used to represent all of Africa below the Sahara. If we look at West Africa and choose three countries, Guine, Nigeria, and Senegal, you come up with at least 3 different physical types. If you go to Congo, Malawi and South Africa, you will find different types as well. This negro thing is another example of what I talked about of the West's attempt to homogenize people by creating imaginary regions and pretending that they are all the same in terms of language, culture and physical type. It is not true or accurate. Therefore, they come to Africa with preconceived notions of what an "African" should be and when they encounter people who do not fit their artificial model, they either pretend they don't exist or try to make them somehow a part of a non African group.

If the sub-Saharan African people are so diverse, how can you (as a voluntary representative of the people of African diaspora) connect with Egyptians based on looks. If it is possible for you to connect with Egyptians the way you do, then it means that there is a certain unity between the looks of sub-Saharan African people, which consequently supports the classifications you despise and deny. So which one is it? Are the sub-Saharan Africans so diverse or do you support the classifications by connecting yourself with Egyptians?

I guess your basic lack of English comprehension has also contributed to the fact that you failed to notice that I mentioned that African Americans are in fact the products of racial mixing as well. We are not racially pure. Seeing as how you, are also a racial hybrid, half Persian and Japanese right, I would have expected that you of all people would understand that racial mixing between two or more groups results in a variety of physical types. The Egyptians were a people of African admixture. They were a mixture of several African physical types with several non African physical types. When you have mixture like this the result is going to by heterogeneity, (do you know what that word means? It means a variety of looks not just one). Some individuals will show characteristics found in the different African groups, others will show non African traits, most will be a blend of all the above.   So why is it so hard to believe that another group of people also of African admixture will have a high amount of people who have a similar look to the other group of Mixed Africans? You don’t honestly think that I’m trying to say that the two are the same people do you, because that would be very stupid. What I am saying is that in the United States, people who look like this, who have this type of genetic makes up, are considered BLACK. Therefore, from this cultural perspective, the Egyptians, because they are of similar extraction are considered BLACK as well. Not the same group, but a similar group.

The burden of proof now falls to you to turn academic and scientific knowledge upside down to show the existence of people evolving traits adapted to cold climates like pale skin in an arid sub-tropical environment like East Africa, or as you would say, NORTH East Africa. Which I would just like to once again point out, is not that significantly cooler than the tropical areas further south.

I've also provided you with a map. Perhaps those terrible Afrocentrics at NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC are all delusional as well.




Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 09:42
On the subject of light complected Africans, the only population fitting this description are some of the Berber populations of North West and North Africa. These people were depicted by the Ancient Egyptians as being white skinned, far lighter than themselves, who were generally depicted as being brown in color.

All modern scientific information indicates that these people are of Eurasian origin migrating along along the southern coast of the Mediterranean in the remotest period of prehistory, yet when I say it, I'm called a racist and delusional. Well this is what mainstream science has to say about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people#Genetic_evidence

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/04/lactose-tolerance-gene-supports.html

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

As I said before, and as everyone with at least some education knows by now, pale skin is not an adaptation found in tropical and subtropical environments. When found in Africa it is always the result of backward migrations into Africa.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 09:52
Ok, lets presume good faith here everybody. No need to insinuate nefarious intents to anyone.


-------------


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 20:06
I'll be on vacation and (hopefully) far from any keyboards for the next two weeks. I'm thoroughly enjoying this discussion, however, and I'll have responses to post when I'm back in town.


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2008 at 22:50
Rakasnumberone.  I was thoroughly entertained by your emotional post.
I have already provided the article describing Afrocentrism and explained point by point as to why your posts fit its descriptions so well and since you could not handle it well (I thought I was being nice by actually pointing out to you the reasons why other members consider you Afrocentric rather then just labeling you without explanation) and have resorted to petty bickering  and insults throughout your post, I will skip most of your post trusting the readers to decide (I would really appreciate it if you could at least make it clear as to who wrote what in your quotes so other members could tell the difference between what I wrote, Bernard Wolley wrote and you wrote)  and will directly address the main issue between us. The indigenous people of Egypt. Who was the first modern human in Egypt? 

The oldest indigenous North African mtDNA line is dated to have arrived from the Levant around 50,000~30.000 years ago (upper Paleolithic era). About 1/8 of maternal gene lines in North Africa come from more recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa and over half are recent movements south from Europe and west from west Asia. This adds up to a view of north Africa as a recipient of ancient migrations from further east as it is the case with Europe, rather than from the south through the Sahara desert. In other words, there is no evidence of a exodus from sub-Saharan Africa into north Africa, but rather of an exodus out of Africa through the southern end of the red sea from the horn of Africa, to the near east and north Africa. 
This is also supported by the article you posted from wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people#Genetic_evidence%20 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people#Genetic_evidence
''Berbers
are the indigenous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group - peoples of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa - North Africa west of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_Valley - Nile Valley .
Genetic evidence

In general, genetic evidence appears to indicate that most North Africans (whether they consider themselves Berber or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab - Arab ) are predominantly of Berber origin and that populations ancestral to the Berbers have been in the area since the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Paleolithic - Upper Paleolithic era. Berbers appear to be largely descended from a group or groups of people who expanded west from an eastern origin, along the southern rim of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_sea - Mediterranean sea , beginning perhaps as much as 50 000 years ago. Significant proportions of both the Berber and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabized_Berber - Arabized Berber gene pools also derive from more recent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_migration - migration of various groups who have left their genetic footprints to varying degrees throughout the region.''    




The unique patchwork of savannah and forest that is sub-Saharan Africa is effectively separated from the rest of the world by two sets of gates and corridors. For the last couple of million years these corridors have acted like huge livestock corral, with several gateways alternatively open and closed. One gate led to the north over the Sahara, while the other led east, across the mouth of the red sea. Which gate was open depended on the glacial cycle and determined whether mammals including humans went north or east. Normally an unforgiving desert, the potential route to the north opens only when variations in the earth's orbit and the tilt of its polar axis produce a brief episode of warming. This fleeting event in geological time happens only once every 100,000 years or so. When the Sun's heat causes a polar meltdown and a warm and humid global climate ensues. The Sahara and Sinai grow lakes, become green, and flower in the short geological spring. But because this warm interlude is so brief the north African weather gate can act as a deadly trap to migrants. The most recent interglacial optimum was only about 8000 years ago. For a couple of thousand years, the Sahara was grassland, and all kinds of game from the south spread throughout north Africa. The earlier interglacial known as the Eemian or Ipswichian, came 125,000 years ago. The southern route however opened 80,000~70,000 years ago at the threshold of a prolonged glaciation when huge volumes of water were locked up in ice sheets and when the sea level fell sufficiently for the normal water exchange between the Indian ocean and the red sea to almost stop. This means that since the appearance of modern humans, they had only two chances to go directly from sub-Saharan Africa to north Africa, the first of which at about 125,000 years ago is too early since the rapid distinction of the parent of modern humans Homo helmei is just around this time, which marks the completion of the birth of the modern humans. This leaves the second chance at around 8 thousand year ago, which is long after the humans had colonized north Africa from the other route through the horn of Africa and the near east.
Around 8 thousand years ago and a couple thousand years after it when the Sahara turned into desert again from grassland, the indigenous north African people who had colonized the lands 50,000 years ago and the migrants from the sub-Saharan Africa who had entered the region when the desert had turned into a grassland, settled along the Nile river and mixed with each other. This explains as to why there are no Berbers to the east of the Nile valley despite the fact that they came from the east, because they mixed with the migrants from the south along the Nile and formed the basis for the Egyptians.









 





Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 00:40
Originally posted by omshanti

Rakasnumberone.  I was thoroughly entertained by your emotional post.I have already provided the article describing Afrocentrism and explained point by point as to why your posts fit its descriptions so well and since you could not handle it well (I thought I was being nice by actually pointing out to you the reasons why other members consider you Afrocentric rather then just labeling you without explanation) and have resorted to petty bickering  and insults throughout your post, I will skip most of your post trusting the readers to decide (I would really appreciate it if you could at least make it clear as to who wrote what in your quotes so other members could tell the difference between what I wrote, Bernard Wolley wrote and you wrote)  and will directly address the main issue between us. The indigenous people of Egypt. Who was the first modern human in Egypt?  The oldest indigenous North African mtDNA line is dated to have arrived from the Levant around 50,000~30.000 years ago (upper Paleolithic era). About 1/8 of maternal gene lines in North Africa come from more recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa and over half are recent movements south from Europe and west from west Asia. This adds up to a view of north Africa as a recipient of ancient migrations from further east as it is the case with Europe, rather than from the south through the Sahara desert. In other words, there is no evidence of a exodus from sub-Saharan Africa into north Africa, but rather of an exodus out of Africa through the southern end of the red sea from the horn of Africa, to the near east and north Africa.  This is also supported by the article you posted from wikipedia.Berbers are the indigenous http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group - peoples of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa - North Africa west of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile_Valley - Nile Valley .<span ="mw-line"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span>Genetic evidence</span>

In general, genetic evidence appears to indicate that most North Africans (whether they consider themselves Berber or http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab - Arab ) are predominantly of Berber origin and that populations ancestral to the Berbers have been in the area since the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Paleolithic - Upper Paleolithic
era. Berbers appear to be largely descended from a group or groups of
people who expanded west from an eastern origin, along the southern rim
of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_sea - Mediterranean sea , beginning perhaps as much as 50 000 years ago. Significant proportions of both the Berber and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabized_Berber - Arabized Berber gene pools also derive from more recent http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_migration - migration of various groups who have left their genetic footprints to varying degrees throughout the region.

The unique patchwork of savannah and forest that is sub-Saharan Africa is effectively separated from the rest of the world by two sets of gates and corridors. For the last couple of million years these corridors have acted like huge livestock corral, with several gateways alternatively open and closed. One gate led to the north over the Sahara, while the other led east, across the mouth of the red sea. Which gate was open depended on the glacial cycle and determined whether mammals including humans went north or east. Normally an unforgiving desert, the potential route to the north opens only when variations in the earth's orbit and the tilt of its polar axis produce a brief episode of of warming. This fleeting event in geological time happens only once every 100,000 years or so. When the Sun's heat causes a polar meltdown and a warm and humid global climate ensues. The Sahara, Sinai and the deserts of Australia grow lakes, become green, and flower in the short geological spring. But because this warm interlude is so brief the north African weather gate can act as a deadly trap to migrants. The most recent interglacial optimum was only about 8000 years ago. For perhaps a couple of thousand years the Sahara was grassland, and all kinds of game from the south spread throughout north Africa. The earlier interglacial known as the Eemian or Ipswichian, came 125,000 years ago. The southern route however opened 80,000~70,000 years ago at the threshold of a prolonged glaciation when huge volumes of water were locked up in ice sheets and when the sea level fell sufficiently for the normal water exchange between the Indian ocean and the red sea to almost stop. This means that since the appearance of modern humans, they had only two chances to go directly from sub-Saharan Africa to north Africa, the first of which at about 125,000 years ago is too early since the rapid distinction of the parent of modern humans Homo helmei is just around this time, which marks the completion of the birth of the modern humans. This leaves the second chance at around 8 thousand year ago, which is long after the humans had colonized north Africa from the other route through the horn of Africa and the near east. Around 8 thousand years ago and a couple thousand years after it when the Sahara turned into desert again from grassland, the indigenous north African people who had colonized the lands 50,000 years ago and the migrants from the sub-Saharan Africa who had entered the region when the desert had turned into a grassland, settled along the Nile river and mixed with each other. This explains as why there are no Berbers to the east of the Nile valley despite the fact that they came from the east, because they mixed with the migrants from the south along the Nile and formed the basis for the Egyptians.

<a name="Y-chromosome_DNA" id="Y-chromosome_DNA"></a>


<h4><span ="editsection"></span> <span ="mw-line"></span></h4>


The tone of your post was quite clear and since you know that I don't like being accused of being called what amounts to being a black supremacist you were fully aware of what you were doing. You know full well that I was only explaining something from a cultural perspective, yet you twisted what I had to say around to make me fit your perception. This just tells me that that is your opinion of me all along. Had it been otherwise you would have worded things differently.

I went through the definition point by point. There was nothing in anything that I wrote previously to indicate I was Afrocentric. POINT 1 the Egyptians were black. I explained previously why this is a problematic term, however, I explained why from the point of view of what is considered Black in the USA, the Egyptians would fit that description, as well as why Afro Americans in particular perceive them that way based on physical characteristics, that is all.

POINT 2 Egypt was superior to all other civilizations: I pointedly stated several times that I think Egypt too often dominates African history. How then could you conclude that I am Afrocentric based on this?

POINT 3 Egypt has influenced other cultures in Africa and Europe: Where did I ever say anything like that??

POINT 4 There has been a conspiracy to suppress all of the above. Stating the historical truth that racism effected every aspect of life in this country is true. The ideology of white supremacy is real and did effect domestic and international policies, that it was the driving justification behind colonialism is TRUE. Stating an unpleasant fact does not make me a racist.

So you deliberately went out of your way to contort my words, to take the conversation in a direction that I never intended it to go and you wonder why I was upset? Then have the nerve to act like you were doing me a favor. If your actions were well intentioned, you would have said something along the lines of, "the reason why people think you are Afrocentric is because..." Rather than stating blatantly as you did, "YOU ARE AFROCENTRIC".

So now that i answered you and did not hide my anger, you take that as the opportunity to ignore all the valid points that I did make. Now you quote an article to me that says basically the same thing that I was saying all along. The fair skinned peoples in North Africa migrated in from Western Asia, they did not evolve there.

It doesn't matter when the back migration happened 50,000 yrs ago or 5,000,000. The fact is that as I said the population in Egypt was made up of native East Africans who never left the continent and were therefore tropically adapted, as well as lighter skinned people from the north. You took this conversation all over the place being bent out of shape over nothing, now you are showing me articles that I read and sent to you in the first place to prove what?

Egyptian culture and civilization is not the result outside influences, but local cultures from the Southern, South East and West that stretched from Mali in the West to Egypt and Sudan in the East. The population in the country was diverse, but the culture itself was one that originated in the continent and migrated north to become the dominant unified culture of the country. End of story.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 05:32

Egyptian civilization was heavely influenced by the civilizations of the Middle East, long before other civilizations existed in Africa. You purposedly forget that.

 
 
 


-------------


Posted By: Rakasnumberone
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 06:02
Originally posted by pinguin

Egyptian civilization was heavely influenced by the civilizations of the Middle East, long before other civilizations existed in Africa. You purposedly forget that.


 

 

 


Penguin, you and your other personality Omshanti, (I'm quite certain you are both the same person), are fishing for a debate. I have no intention of having a debate. I only joined the discussion to share some information not to argue about Egypt this Egypt that. You came in and took the conversation somewhere i had no intention of going.

Penguin/Omshanti You are a racist plain and simple. That's why you feel the need to use and defend outdated terms like negro. I have one more reason why its distasteful. Because when you start to categorize people in such a fashion it dehumanizes them. They are no longer unique individuals but things to be put in neat little boxes. this is the reason these categories were made in the first place.

I already told you I have nothing to say to you, now I'm telling your other personality Omshanti the same thing. If you think I sit around the house worrying about Egypt, I don't. To be perfectly honest, I could give a shit about it. They are all dead and I'm alive and even if they were all as black as shoe polish, it doesn't make a difference in my life. Why I do and the person I become in life is totally dependent on what I do TODAY. As I said, the only significance Egypt has is that it proves the idea that intelligence is linked to race or skin color is false. That was my basic premise all along, but rather than seeing that, you try to drag me into a debate, which you are still trying to do now, and further instigate trouble by calling me an Afrocentricist. Disgusting mind set.

I think you are the absolute scum of the earth and beneath my contempt. And lest i be tempted to answer you, I discontinue my affiliation with this site. So by the time you read this, i'll be gone. Whatever you have to say in reply...... you can choke on it because I wont be reading it. I should have left months ago, but I let myself be suckered into staying by you, pretending to be Omshanti, begging me to stay, just so you could bate me into having more meaningless debates with you. you have a problem where black people and Africans are concerned and everyone here with any honesty knows it.
I have neither the intention time nor the energy to waste on bullshit any longer.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 13:13
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by pinguin

Egyptian civilization was heavely influenced by the civilizations of the Middle East, long before other civilizations existed in Africa. You purposedly forget that.

 

Penguin/Omshanti You are a racist plain and simple. That's why you feel the need to use and defend outdated terms like negro. I have one more reason why its distasteful. Because when you start to categorize people in such a fashion it dehumanizes them. They are no longer unique individuals but things to be put in neat little boxes. this is the reason these categories were made in the first place.

I already told you I have nothing to say to you, now I'm telling your other personality Omshanti the same thing. If you think I sit around the house worrying about Egypt, I don't. To be perfectly honest, I could give a shit about it. They are all dead and I'm alive and even if they were all as black as shoe polish, it doesn't make a difference in my life. Why I do and the person I become in life is totally dependent on what I do TODAY. As I said, the only significance Egypt has is that it proves the idea that intelligence is linked to race or skin color is false. That was my basic premise all along, but rather than seeing that, you try to drag me into a debate, which you are still trying to do now, and further instigate trouble by calling me an Afrocentricist. Disgusting mind set.

I think you are the absolute scum of the earth and beneath my contempt. And lest i be tempted to answer you, I discontinue my affiliation with this site. So by the time you read this, i'll be gone. Whatever you have to say in reply...... you can choke on it because I wont be reading it. I should have left months ago, but I let myself be suckered into staying by you, pretending to be Omshanti, begging me to stay, just so you could bate me into having more meaningless debates with you. you have a problem where black people and Africans are concerned and everyone here with any honesty knows it.
I have neither the intention time nor the energy to waste on bullshit any longer.
 
Crying racism is a tactic that doesn't work in here. A black person don't have the right to falsify history at all, just because its skin is darker. We don't allow whites to falsify history (nazis and communists, for example), why should we allow black activists to do the same because they are blacks? Nonsense.
 
The fact is you are a charlatan, I am afraid, that insist in forgeting the influence of the Middle East into Egypt. You forget it because it doesn't fit in your model of the world and the idealized Africa of your dreams!
 
Recognizing that the Middle East tought most of its civilization to Egypt is not racism, but common sense. The Middle East started long time before than Egypt. YOU are the racist when you forget that fact and try to build a history that fits your wishes. However facts stand:

(1) Egyptian civilization was heavely influenced by the civilizations of the Middle East, long before other civilizations existed in Africa. You purposedly forget that.

And second,
 
(2) Ancient Egypt is the heritage of modern Egyptians, not of Zimbabwians or African Americans.
 
 


-------------


Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2008 at 14:27
Originally posted by pinguin



 
Crying racism is a tactic that doesn't work in here. A black person don't have the right to falsify history at all, just because its skin is darker. We don't allow whites to falsify history (nazis and communists, for example), why should we allow black activists to do the same because they are blacks? Nonsense.
 
The fact is you are a charlatan, I am afraid, that insist in forgeting the influence of the Middle East into Egypt. You forget it because it doesn't fit in your model of the world and the idealized Africa of your dreams!
 
Recognizing that the Middle East tought most of its civilization to Egypt is not racism, but common sense. The Middle East started long time before than Egypt. YOU are the racist when you forget that fact and try to build a history that fits your wishes. However facts stand:

(1) Egyptian civilization was heavely influenced by the civilizations of the Middle East, long before other civilizations existed in Africa. You purposedly forget that.

And second,
 
(2) Ancient Egypt is the heritage of modern Egyptians, not of Zimbabwians or African Americans.
 
 


Amen.

As I said, the only significance Egypt has is that it proves the idea that intelligence is linked to race or skin color is false.


There is no need to prove that sun is warm. Get over of your complex.


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 03:47
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

After reading your very long reply I now remember why I spend so little time here.
That must be because you can not stand it and go absolutely berserk when other people disagree with you or point things out to you.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Although I must say, given the fact that we have spoken in private at length I am very surprised and disappointed not only in your tone, but at how impolite you are. Although I have been nothing but polite to you, you have been rude and insulting to me and repeatedly accusing me of basically being a black racist by addressing my by a term which you know I find offensive.
My tone had not changed from my first post after which you wrote to pinguin :
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


No Penguin, you don't understand, (typical). I don't want to waste my time talking to you at all. Everything that comes out of your mouth shows you are incapable and unwilling to listen and understand what I'm saying. The fact that I'm a person of African descent makes it impossible for you to see me as anything but an Afrocentrist, which if you had the ability to read and the necessary English comprehension skills, you would see that I'm not. Your stupid comment about Black Athena just shows that to you any black person is an Afrocentrist no matter what they say. Speaking to you is a waste of time because you obviously have a bias when it comes to black people. I can speak to Omshanti and even if we disagree we can have a logical conversation,  the same goes for everyone else here except you. Knowing your mentality I dread to see what kind of stuff you wrote.

GOOD BYE PENGUIN.
This shows that it was not my tone, and I never addressed you as Afrocentric, I posted an article which described Afrocentrism and went through your post explaining point by point as to where and how your post fits the description so well. Just read back my post calmly.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Makes me wonder who you really are and if you and a certain person I've dismissed on more than one occasion are in fact one in the same person.
I am I, nobody else, and this is the only forum name I am using.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Nevertheless, I will reply to your posts out of politeness. I have provided an overwhelming abundance of evidence to support my explanations, none of them being so called Afrocentric sources.
The sources might not necessarily be Afrocentric, but it is their appropriateness and the way you present them that make the difference regarding whether your posts fit the description given in the article about Afrocentrism or not.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

If that is the case, why is it possible to recognize a sub-Saharan African person as sub-Saharan African? When you see a sub-Saharan African person in london for example, is it only the hair that helps you recognize the sub-Saharan element in him/her? In My opinion by the way, hair is not an invalid element for a classification to be based on.
Also if sub-Saharan Africans are so diverse in looks, why is it possible for the people of African diaspora (majority of whom came from west Africa) to find a connection with another part of Africa (Egypt) based on looks, as written in Rakasnumberone's post here :
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a photo album.


What he’s trying to explain to you is that the classifications are problematic because they assume that the people called Negroes do not have any of the character traits that the people called Caucasians do. For instance, Negroes only have flat wide noses and thick lips, where as Caucasians have narrow noses and thin lips. The fact is that you find populations all across Africa who have thin lips and narrow noses as well. Not all Sub Saharan populations have these so called Negroid features. They have many different facial structures. So how do we recognize them? Primarily because they tend to come in many shades of brown not found in European populations and their hair tends to be much curlier. But these are only two characteristics. You can find sun-saharans with the same shape nose as you find in Europe, or Sub Saharans who have slanted eyes like Asians, you find Sub- Saharans with the same skull shapes you find in Europe, Asia, the Americas. Its not to say that the so-called Negro type doesn’t exist, just that it is not representative of the entire Sub Saharan population.
If you are talking about isolated single characteristics, then it is not only the sub-Saharan Africans who can have, in a random fashion, characteristics that are more common in other groups.  You can always find an east Asian person with a long nose or an European person with one-eyelid eyes ....etc. Sub-Saharan Africans are not special in this respect at all.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley



I also can't think of any feature or trait that's supposedly characteristic of any non-African population that isn't present among populations in Africa.


Originally posted by omshanti

If this is the case, a Chinese, a Russian ....etc person can easily blend into the local population when he/she visits any part of sub-Saharan Africa or vice versa. Rakasnumberone seems to disagree with you here:


You could tell them apart because of the total sum of features.
I had already written that here :
Originally posted by omshanti

   You can always find a single isolated trait or feature which happens to be common in one group, to be present in random individuals in other groups (not only in the sub-Saharan Africans) of humanity as well, however it is the combinations of certain features and traits which make the difference between groups, and make it possible to roughly recognize the origin of a person. The point is that you would never think that a Russian, a Chinese ....etc person is African or vice versa when you see one.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

But what he’s saying is that other than the skin or hair, there are no features that are exclusive to Sub Saharans.
Actually the skin colour and the hair are not exclusive to sub-Saharan Africans either. However as you wrote as well, it is the sum of the features or combinations of Characteristics that make the difference.   
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

For instance, You can find Sub Saharans with the same eye shape as a Chinese, or Mongolian. You can find a Sub Saharan that has the same head shape as a Russian, even though there is a big difference between the skin color and hair structure of the two.
As I had already written, Sub-Saharan Africans are not special in this respect. You can always find single isolated characteristics which are more common in one group, to be present in random individuals of other groups, regardless of them being sub-Saharan African or not. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

In other words, there are differences, but there can also be similarities as well when looking at other features.
That can be said about any group of people in the world, not only the sub-Saharan Africans.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley



As regards Dr. Hawass, the fact of the matter is that it's perfectly legitimate to debate the skin pigmentation chosen for the bust shown at the top of this thread.

Originally posted by omshanti

I don't think he is opposing the debate itself. He is opposing one side of the debate. That is as you wrote, perfectly legitimate, yet all kinds of accusations are directed at him because of what he says, in places where he doesn't even read, such as in this thread. Since he is Egyptian and a scholar/archaeologist while the side he is opposing to are US black activists (as written in the top article) in a subject regarding ancient Egypt, my sympathies go for him.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley



Although the pigment chosen is a possibility, it's definitely at the lighter end of the spectrum compared to modern-day Egyptians.

Originally posted by omshanti

That is the point, it is not beyond the spectrum, and it is as much possible that what he and his coworkers chose was based on scholarly grounds rather than what some members here accuse him of.


But you see, this is the point. Why did they choose the least likely color in the population rather than the color one is most likely to encounter? Why didn’t they base it on the average color of the people who live in Upper Egypt when Tut was in fact an Upper Egyptian?
You always write that the colour of the Egyptians have changed in the course of the history due to external influences, yet here you are saying that today's population has to be used as a sample. If you have questions about their choice, just send them a letter and ask them instead of calling them ''racists'' behind their backs. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Also, why was this the only recreation that was shown? The Americans made a recreation, as did the Egyptians themselves. It is not a precise science. Why then didn’t they show all the recreations and explain the limitations of the science rather than showing only one and leading the public to believe that it is a 100% accurate representation when in fact it is not?
Actually, the American representation is shown on the National geographic site, which is not that different as far as I can see. I also recall seeing the Egyptian recreation somewhere and it was not that different either.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley



Dr. Hawass is a well-respected Egyptologist, but he's also a supremely media-conscious man who, as far as I can tell, has never met a camera he didn't like (countless Discovery Channel documentaries feature ridiculous b-roll of Dr. Hawass climbing in and out of caverns, and doing his very best Indiana Jones impression). He's not above courting controversy to stimulate interest in his field.


Originally posted by omshanti

If Mr.Zahi Hawass' scholarly opinions were same as your opinions, would you still have judged his personality? Based on the impressions you get from Television?


I can’t speak for Bernard, but for myself, yes I would. Simply based on what other Egyptians in his field have told me about him and what people who have dealt with him personally have told me. A person’s academic or professional credentials have nothing to do with their personal character.
That was the whole point, that you have to separate a person's academic works from your judgements of his/her personality, therefore not use the judgement of the personality to discredit the academic works.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

To Rakasnumberone.
Originally posted by Bernard Woolley



Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



I'm really not too certain what Afrocentrism is supposed to be. I've encountered some really bizarre characters and theories claiming to be Afrocentric, but I wonder if this isn't a case of a legitimate cultural and intellectual movement being hijacked by some fringe elements. In any case, if the issue is to foster a legitimate reevaluation of African culture, people and history, both on the continent and diaspora, honoring the complexities of these cultures, I'm for it. If all it is is just the flip side of a white supremacist coin, then I want nothing to do with it at all.


I agree. I put "Afrocentrism" in quotes because I'm not sure the word actually has any meaning beyond what people who don't like it say it means.

I used to have the same opinion as the quote above regarding Afrocentrism. However I found an article in National Geographic website which describes Afrocentrism and realized that your posts fit really well with the descriptions given in it. It is very ironic because you provided me (a person who was not sure what Afrocentrism was and if it really existed), with very good examples of Afrocentrism with your own posts.

Here is the article: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/geopedia/Black_Pharaohs
Afrocentrism
By Marisa Larson
By Marisa Larson, National Geographic staff

Afrocentrism is a cultural, academic, and political movement that aims to focus attention on Africa’s contributions to world civilization and history. Afrocentrists view this as a paradigm shift, commonly contending that Eurocentrism led people to overlook or in some cases deny that Africa’s rich achievements existed separately from European influence.

Afrocentricity has its origins in the work of African and African-diaspora intellectuals in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. Afrocentric scholars sought to counter the prevailing view that sub-Saharan Africa had contributed nothing of value to human history that was not the result of incursions by Europeans or Arabs. The Afrocentric movement grew more political during the U.S. civil rights movement in the 1960s and later was frequently seen as a tool in combating social injustice, improving economic empowerment, and bolstering self-esteem in the African-American community. It also was used in the effort to create a more multicultural, balanced approach to history and sociology.

One way Afrocentric scholars sought to draw attention to Africa’s impact was to state that ancient Egyptian culture was African and its pharaohs black. According to Egyptologist Ann Macy Roth, Afrocentric Egyptology is less a scholarly field than a political and educational movement, aimed at increasing the self-esteem and confidence of African Americans by stressing the achievements of African civilizations, principally ancient Egypt. She describes Afrocentric Egyptology as having four main points: (1) Ancient Egyptians were black, (2) ancient Egypt was superior to other ancient civilizations, (3) Egyptian culture had tremendous influence on the later cultures of Africa and Europe, and (4) there has been a vast racist conspiracy to prevent the dissemination of the evidence for these assertions.

Ancient Egyptians didn’t think in terms of race as we do today. While the Egyptians regularly differentiated themselves from foreigners living around them, they did so in political and cultural terms rather than in racial ones. Foreigners were labeled by their regional or political names, and they were always depicted with distinctive features and dress. Though artwork did differentiate among populations by color, the distinction seems to have been merely descriptive, with no preference ascribed to any particular skin tone.

To describe ancient Egyptians as either “white†or “black†is inaccurate—they were of varying complexions and features. Scientific testing indicates that, just as today, they ranged from the light Mediterranean type to the darkest shade of brown around Aswan and farther south into Nubia. The likely mixing with neighbors due to intermarriage and political alliances created a heterogeneous population. Egypt’s relationships with its neighbors were also based on political concerns, not race or ethnicity.



Okay, here’s the thing, there is very little here that I believe. : “(1) Ancient Egyptians were blackâ€. I believe that using the term “BLACK†is too simplistic a term. I think you are confusing my explanation for what is considered Black in the U.S. context, for what I believe they were or were not.
The fact that you feel the need to explain what is black in the US and justify in your own terms that the ancient Egyptians were black, when the topic should be about Egypt, fits the point No.1.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

When I look at Egypt I look at it from the perspective of it’s 3,000 yr history as a whole. Therefore, even though I do believe that the first population in the region was a dark skinned one, I don’t believe they were 100% uniform or pure throughout their entire 3,000 yr history.
You simply claim the Egyprians in a more subtle and sneaky way. You say that it was mixed, but also never forget to say that ''the first population was a dark skinned one''. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I recognize the fact that racial identification the way we think of it today did not exist back then. I also recognize that the U.S. definition of blackness is not one that is universally shared or understood in other parts of the world. It is certainly not the case with Egypt today where each individual decides for themselves what is or is not Black. It’s not uncommon to hear an Egyptian say “I’m white but my brother is blackâ€. Or a person who is dark skinned with kinky hair, who we would call black to say “I’m not Blackâ€. This is why I don’t use the term, especially on international forums. All I did was explain to you what the term means in our American cultural context.
All you did was to explain it repeatedly and endlessly in almost all your posts and then get angry when other members did not apply it.

 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

(2) ancient Egypt was superior to other ancient civilizations,

Although they were impressive, I don’t believe they were “superior†to any other civilization. I don’t believe in such concepts. Yes they had a very developed material culture, but there are other things that make a culture than the ability to make big buildings. What about their philosophy, world-view, social structure and organization, government, rights of their citizens and quality of life of their citizens? Therefore, while Egypt may have been superior in terms of its material culture and technology, it may have been behind other societies in the other qualities I mentioned.
Yet out of all those societies it is Egypt that you feel the need to to use in order to prove intelligence and raise self-esteem.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

(3) Egyptian culture had tremendous influence on the later cultures of Africa and Europe, and

There is no evidence to suggest that this is true. Yes, there was an exchange of ideas with the Greeks, Phoenicians, but there was not a major influence in their basic social and cultural structures. Likewise, there is no evidence that Egypt had any significant influences on other African societies other than Nubia which was its closest neighbor.
 
The point of the second and the third points is that  Afrocentrists consider Egypt to be special enough to think that by claiming it they are proving their intelligence. Your obsession with Egypt and your need to use it in order to prove what you want to prove speaks for itself.

 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As for point #4. Yes,
Then you have nothing to object. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I do believe that because it is true.
It is also true that Afrocentrism which claims this to be true does not have an objective stance. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

There has been a concerted effort to classify Egypt as a non African civilization. 
You always write that Africa is so diverse in every respect, which subsequently means that what makes Egypt an African civilization and what unites Egypt with other African societies is its geographical location, the fact that it is located in the African continent. As far as I see everybody can see that and no theories are denying this obvious fact. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  There has been an effort to deny the achievements of Africans in other parts of the continent, Great Zimbabwe being the most dramatic example.
Then why not concentrate on Zimbabwe rather than Egypt? 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

That has nothing to do with me. These are documented well know historical facts.
  They do have everything to do with you, because even though I am not claiming those things you keep replying to me as if I am, which shows that your view when reading my posts is being blinded by your paranoia.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone


With exception of a few fringe elements, I don't think most Afro
Americans are under the delusion that they are descended from the
Egyptians. As I said before, its real significance is in showing that
certain ideas which were used to justify slavery and colonialism are
not founded in fact but fiction. Think of it this way. I'm old enough
to remember when women were prohibited from running in marathons in
this country because they were told that women were not physically
capable of doing such things. There was a time when women were
discouraged from seeking higher education because it was believed they
didn't have the mental capacity to do so and that trying would be
injurious to their physical and mental health. Now, if I were a woman
in the U.S. and I saw women in China who not only had higher education,
they were actually heads institutions of higher learning, it would give
me strength and ammunition to fight for my right to do so here. If I
was told that women were too weak to run long distances and I saw that
in Europe women not only run in marathons, the set records, it would
give me strength and comfort in knowing that what i was told was not
true. I would go about collecting as much information as I could find
on the achievements of remarkable women to show that the stereotypes
are nothing but cultural and political fabrications. I would feel a
sense of connection to those people, not because I believed they were
my actual relatives, but because like them, I too am a woman and so in
a sense their success is my success, or better yet an indication as to
what I can achieve. It would prove that being a woman is not a
hinderance to success in any way, physically or mentally.
Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all
peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily
connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no
African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that
no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of
significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of
people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in
our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a
photo album.

Originally posted by omshanti



This statement shows really well that the
connection the people of African diaspora (represented by you here) feel
towards Egypt is based on looks and external physical characteristics,
the very elements upon which are based the classifications they (you)
so furiously despise and try to deny. Furthermore, based on physical
characteristics and looks, there are enough elements in the Egyptian
population that people of Europe/west Asia (especially the
Mediterranean regions and the Arabian pennisula) can connect with as well, so it would be a double
standard to dismiss them by using the card of ''racism'' and
considering them as ''racists who use racist classifications''.


No its not a double standard because I do not nor have I ever denied that those elements are found in the population because they are.
You just do it more subtly, by saying that the first population or the indigenous people were dark skinned. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The problem that I have is with people who say that Egypt was only represented by the physical types found in Western Asia and the Mediterranean and that the types we would recognize as African today, whether East African as represented by the Horn of Africa populations, or other types did not exist, except in those people brought to Egypt as slaves.
And you say that the first population was only represented by ''native east Africans'' and that the rest were external influences who came later. You are doing the same thing. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

What I’m saying is that it is historically incorrect to say that Egyptians didn’t have people with physical characteristics found in neighboring African regions, or that there were no cultural similarities between Egypt and its other African neighbors.
It is also historically and geographically incorrect to say that the indigenous Egyptians were Nubians, Ethiopians and Somalis.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

To do so is racist and these ideas that would deny the obvious connections were created by people who had a racist mentality.
I can see a mirror in front of you. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

This is a well known fact in academic circles.
This is very obvious from your pots. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Listen, when we are talking about American and European scholars in the 19th and early 20th centuries, we have to realize that they were products of the prevailing culture of the time and at the time, the prevailing notion was that the White Anglo Saxon was superior to all other races. They had a bias which was reflected in their work, sometimes consciously sometimes unconsciously.
Another mirror. This can be said about Afrocentrism and the claims you are making.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

If you find the remains of a civilization in a certain location, why would you believe that they must have come from somewhere else?
A different continent does not necessarily mean ''somewhere else''. Similarly being in the same continent does not necessarily mean the same ''certain location'' 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Yet this is one of the major theories that was presented as fact and many times, still is today. In collage I took a class in Ancient Egyptian art. The professor started the class by talking about the origins of the Egyptians. He stated that the Egyptians originated in Arabia and migrated into the country by crossing the Red Sea. Someone, (A white person) asked him if it wasn’t more probable that they migrated north from the south. He said no it wasn’t. Someone else asked him what race they were. He said they had no race. So although he didn’t say they were white, he implies it by giving them an Arabian origin and declaring that the possibility of a southern connection didn’t exist. When I pressed him, he admitted that there was no evidence that the Egyptians originated in Arabia, it was just a theory. My question to him, was that if it was just a theory, why didn’t he say so and why then is it so hard to believe that there could have been a southern connection?
I see another mirror again. You also present your own perspective as one and the only fact, and not only that, you also go berserk when others don't agree with it.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

You are not understanding the significance nor the context of what I'm saying.

Originally posted by omshanti

The fact that you expect me to understand the significance and the context of the black and white issue in the US, the Slavery of African people in modern times, abuse of racial classifications, ''how racist the whole society controlled by the whites is'', viciousness of the ''racist'' mentality in the US, how the white world is downplaying the blacks......etc when the topic at hand is about ancient Egypt, shows your stance regarding ancient Egypt, which fits really well with the description given in the article about Afrocentrism. The subject is about ancient Egypt and should be scholarly, and not tied with the sociopolitical issues of the black people in America.


You still don’t understand. I’m trying to explain to you what is behind the controversy regarding this issue of the racial identity of the Egyptians. To do so, I have to explain the cultural, historical and political context in which the concept of race as it exists in America originated. I do not expect Modern day Egyptians or anyone else to adopt the American label which, is based on an American social and historical experience. I only want you and others to understand what is meant by BLACK in our context.
You want others to ''understand'' so much that the whole discussion of Egypt could revolve around the things you want them to understand.  And when it doesn't, you become so angry and  blame everything on ''racism''.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

By the same token, on other forums I quite often have to explain to Americans both black and white, why the term Black is not understood outside of the United States. Racially identity is a societal construct and therefore different people mean different things when they use terms of description. The idea that one African ancestor makes a person 100% African is not based on science now is it? Pointing this out does not make me an Afrocentricist.
The fact is that you have to point things out repeatedly and endlessly to people who have not claimed any of things you keep pointing out. This is exactly what I am saying when I say that your posts fit the description of the article.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



First of all understand that we did not create the system of racial classification, it was imposed on us.

Originally posted by omshanti

The point is not who imposed what on whom or who created what first. This is not a children's argument. The point is that you (as the voluntary representative of all the people of African diaspora) are basing your connections with ancient Egypt on the same principles as the people you call ''racist''. So I pointed out that it is double standard.


First of all I don’t know what you mean by “connection with Egyptâ€, since I have pointed out repeatedly that we are not descended from Egyptians.
You seem to have conveniently forgotten and missed it because of all the blaming you were doing in response to what I wrote when I wrote it.  let me quote it for you :
Originally posted by omshanti



Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Zagros

Whatever they were, Egyptians were not the ancestors of African Americans, sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans and had nothing in common with them culturally, not even in the slightest.  Blacks and Europeans have no rights in claiming their glory just because there was no significant ancient civilisation in sub-Saharan Africa or Northern and Central Europe.  They should get over it and accept their actual heritage instead of hijacking other people's.


With exception of a few fringe elements, I don't think most Afro Americans are under the delusion that they are descended from the Egyptians. As I said before, its real significance is in showing that certain ideas which were used to justify slavery and colonialism are not founded in fact but fiction. Think of it this way. I'm old enough to remember when women were prohibited from running in marathons in this country because they were told that women were not physically capable of doing such things. There was a time when women were discouraged from seeking higher education because it was believed they didn't have the mental capacity to do so and that trying would be injurious to their physical and mental health. Now, if I were a woman in the U.S. and I saw women in China who not only had higher education, they were actually heads institutions of higher learning, it would give me strength and ammunition to fight for my right to do so here. If I was told that women were too weak to run long distances and I saw that in Europe women not only run in marathons, the set records, it would give me strength and comfort in knowing that what i was told was not true. I would go about collecting as much information as I could find on the achievements of remarkable women to show that the stereotypes are nothing but cultural and political fabrications. I would feel a sense of connection to those people, not because I believed they were my actual relatives, but because like them, I too am a woman and so in a sense their success is my success, or better yet an indication as to what I can achieve. It would prove that being a woman is not a hinderance to success in any way, physically or mentally.

Likewise, those of us of African descent feel a kinship with all peoples of the diaspora not because we believe we are necessarily connected by blood, but ideologically. We were told not only that no African ever achieved anything or was even capable of doing so and that no one who was of African blood was able to do anything of significance. Therefore, when we see Egypt, and we see statues of people who look like us, who look like our family members and people in our communities, we don't believe we are looking at snap shots from a photo album.
This statement shows really well that the connection the people of African diaspora (represented by you here) feel towards Egypt is based on looks and external physical characteristics, the very elements upon which are based the classifications they (you) so furiously despise and try to deny.  Furthermore, based on physical characteristics and looks,  there are enough elements in the Egyptian population that people of Europe/west Asia (especially the Mediterranean regions and the Arabian peninsula) can connect with as well, so it would be a double standard to dismiss them by using the card of ''racism'' and considering them as ''racists who use racist classifications''.
Do you remember it now? 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  I understand what you mean by appearances, but understand that the whole argument as to whether or not Egyptians are Africans is based on an assumption as to what an African looks like.
The very assumption/notion you so strongly have. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

All I am doing is using the logic of the other side to show a point.
You are not just doing it to show a point at all. Your whole argument is based on this notion, that the indigenous Egyptians looked like Nubians, Ethiopians or Somalis and that you or Afro-Americans  look like them.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

If they say that Egyptians, Ethiopians and Somalis are not “negroes†and therefore, not Africans based on their craniofacial measurements, meaning thin noses, thin lips, then why are Africans in other parts of the continent and the diaspora whith the same features considered ‘negroes’? Shouldn’t they be Caucasians as well? The fact is that a high percentage of Afro Americans are in fact blended. Egyptians were also a blend. So if you are going to say that one group of blended people are black because they have at least one “black†African ancestor, why then does the same rule not apply to Ancient Egyptians who also have a black African component to their background as well.
Earlier you were saying that you are ''only explaining'' what black is in America and that you don't expect others to adopt it, and yet here you are complaining about the American concept not being applied to Egypt. Also as usual you are bringing ''they''  into your discussion with me. As I have already told you, I am not ''they''.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



Secondly, as I said before, we are not 100% pure blooded Africans. Race classification was created by the elite class of the majority ethnic group for the purpose of maintaining their position of power and influence by dividing the undercalss, (both black and white) against each other. Since the majority of the underclass were of European origin, the effort was made to get them on the side of the ruling class. To do this they made servitude a life long condition for people of African origin, while at the same time giving all whites a higher status. You have to understand that a great deal of control under slavery and later colonialism was and is psychological. No people are born racist. In order to get the majority of people to support it you must convince them and likewise to get a person to accept being a slave or colonized you must convince them of their inferiority.

You don't understand just how vicious this mentality is. Even if a person had only 1 black ancestor going back 4 generations they were still considered part of the black population. Such a person may very well look no different than a European and if their maternal ancestors were slaves, they were automatically slaves. This means that there were many slaves who were just as white as their masters in appearance.
Therefore the justification of racial discrimination wasn't totally based on the way a person looked. However, what we were told by the ruling society is that no Africans anywhere on the continent made any achievements. Dark skin was a sign of mental inferiority. Since intelligence is carried in the blood, anyone with any amount of African blood is of inferior intelligence.

Now when you are told these things by the society you live in for generations, there are many people who will believe it on some level. Certainly most white people believed it because that's what they were taught and although they resented it, so did many black people. But you see, this mentality doesn't just stop at black people. It was used to justify the exploitation of all peoples around the world who were not white. The widely believed theory was that all people who were not White Europeans were inferior. That includes you, that includes me, that includes modern Egyptians today, that includes Arabs, Chinese and NAtive Americans. Everyone who was not 100% pure blooded European was believed to be racially inferior. Therefore, if skin color is believed to be a sign of mental weakness, how can you prove the theory wrong? By showing people who are the opposite of what they say.

I made the comparison with women.    If it is said that all women are too weak to be athletes, how do you prove it is wrong? By finding a woman who is a champion athlete. Its the same situation with regards to Egypt. They said NO SOCIETY IN AFRICA ever produced a civilization. Well Egypt is a society in Africa. They said that no black skinned person or a person mixed with a black, no matter how small the amount, was capable of displaying any significant amount of intelligence. Well Egyptians are a people with black admixture. Some are darker,some are lighter, so that proves the theory false as well.   Do you understand? now?

Originally posted by omshanti

So basically you are using ancient Egypt as a tool to increase the self esteem of the people of African diaspora and to prove the intelligence of black people. This is exactly what was written in the article about Afrocentrism.


No. I am not saying that. Remember, I started out by saying that we pay far too much attention to Egypt. It has a place in Africa, but not to the exclusion of all the other societies. It is useful only because it proves that the idea that there was never a civilization indigenous to Africa, (whatever you choose to call them ) is false. It also shows that the idea that Dark skinned African, (and racially mixed people especially if mixed with dark skinned Africans) are intellectually inferior and incapable of achievement is also false. That’s it really.
So you are indeed using Egypt. Do you not realize that you are still saying the same thing after denying it?

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



Originally posted by omshanti



If the connection you (as the representative of the
people of African diaspora) feel towards Egypt is geographical (sharing a
continent) or cultural, then why so much focus on blackness/whiteness,
nativity/foreignness and the looks of people?


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Because of the mind games that are played by the racist establishment. It is they who have created this whole mentality in the first place. To this day we are still judged by the color of our skin, facial features or ancestral background. If you say the Egyptians were an African people, they say no they weren't, they were Western Asians who migrated into Africa. In other words what they are trying to say is that these people were white because blacks are incapable of doing anything and not Africans because no African has ever achieved anything. No matter where in Africa you find evidence of intelligence, the racist establishment will try to claim it was the result of a white population who migrated there, hence the invention of the so called CAucasian Africans, but I'll say more on that later. This is what they did with Zimbabwe, the West African Empires etc. That is why we in response spend so much time pointing out the obvious.



What you wrote here is a very good example of the main point No.4 of Afrocentrism described in the article.


Not really. There is nothing I have said here that has not been said by White European archeologists, historians and scholars. Neither of us are Afrocentricists. There is a very big difference between telling the truth of a situation and fabricating history to make people feel good.

I’ve provided you with three video clips. I hope you will take the time to watch them. They explain the very mentality I describe that was so prevalent and still exists in some circles today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBbMxJuAQY0&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9jlPNVnKWA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aAS3iBN9QsI

To state that there was racism is not to be Afrocentric. It is real, and it did and still to some extent influences the opinions of people with regards to how they perceive Africa and Africans. The opinions these videos reflect show this. Therefore, ask yourself, if this was the mentality that existed could they have possibly viewed Egypt with any sort of objectivity? How could they? They saw Africa and Africans only in terms of the primitive. Therefore, if this is what you have been taught to believe, when you see evidence of any achievement in Africa, it must be the result of outside influences.

The thing to do here is not pretend that prejudice doesn’t exist because it clearly does. The thing we must do is ask ourselves, why did it exist in regards to the way they viewed Africa and Africans?
1) The videos are all about Zimbabwe, not Egypt. There is a huge difference between the two. One was in Sub-Saharan Africa and unknown to anywhere else until recently, the other was in the Mediterranean region and has been known to other peoples in the mediterranean region and west Asia since the beginning of its history. 

2) Archaeology started out as treasure hunting and most early archaeologist were not careful in preserving the sites they discovered, regardless of the site being in Africa or not.

3) It seems, the history of Africa is all about Africans seen through the eyes of Europeans . The responsibility of preserving one's own history is on one's self, not others. It seems to me from these videos that Africans are just complaining about how the Europeans write their history, rather than to make an effort to write their own history themselves.

The point of the main point No.4 in the article is that Afrocentrism blames the world of racial bias because  the world has not written history the way Afrocenrism desires/needs. This is exactly what you were doing in this part (and most of) your post,  which is blaming others for not having done things the way you desired/needed them to have. Hence it fit the point No.4.



Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 03:48
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



Originally posted by omshanti



Also what is the proper place for Egypt in your mind? Based on your
accusations directed at him in this thread, it is obviously very
different from that of the renowned Egyptian scholar/archaeologist Dr. Zahi
Hawass.



The proper place of Egypt is an African Civilization, not a so called Middle Eastern Civilization. The whole concept of a Middle East was invented by the colonialist mind. There is no such thing as a Middle East.
Originally posted by omshanti

There is such a thing as the middle east. It just happens to be a sociopolitical concept rather than geographical/continental.


This is a concept that has been created by the Colonial powers which is still in use today. The people of the region did not invent it.
Whether you accept it or not, there is a sociopolitical unity in the zone called the middle east from Morroco in the west to Afghanistan in the east. The zone was not invented. It was simply named.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I have no problem with using the term, but when it is used to place Egypt outside of the context of the continent, that is a problem because it is inaccurate. The Middle East is a region that includes Africa, Asia and Europe. Why then not say that it is located in the African section of the Middle East? It is always used as a way to fit it in more closely with Western Asia in order to deny any connection to Africa. So to be accurate, why can’t we say that Egypt is an African civilization located in the South West corner of the Middle East. Or we could say its located in the African section of the Middle East. Either statement would be true.
Why mention such an obvious fact? Only people who have some kind of issues or who are hung up would require such an obvious fact to be mentioned. As I wrote before, being in the middle east does not contradict with being in Africa because 'the middle east' as you can see from the fact that it includes parts of Europe, west Asia and Africa, is not a continental naming as it is the case with 'Africa'.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



The Earth is a globe. So how can you point at any one section and call it the middle of something. It can only be the middle in relation to something else and for the colonialist that something was Europe. Therefore Middle East is judged according to how close or far it is to Europe.

Originally posted by omshanti

It is not judged, it is named in relation to west Europe, which is natural because it was named by west Europeans. Naming and judging are too different things. If you have problems with the name, then create a new name for it and make it the convention. Whatever you name it, the sociopolitical zone is there.


Judged, named, it all means the same thing in this context.
No, it is not. 'Judged' and 'named' are two different words with two different meanings. Don't confuse them to suit your argument. Or perhaps you just judge matters based on names and superficial factors and therefore can not separate the two meanings.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As I said, I can accept the term as long as we recognize that it is not some mystical zone but a region that covers several continents and the section where Egypt is located is on the African continent.
Who are you talking to? Yourself again?  As Vorian wrote in his last post, there is no need to prove/recognize that sun is warm, unless you yourself think that it is cold and therefore need to prove otherwise to yourself.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



They ignore all the diversity in the region and indiscriminately lump everyone together regardless of ethnicity, language or culture.
Originally posted by omshanti

You always talk about how diverse Africa is, so wouldn't it be ''ignoring all the diversity in the continent and indiscriminately lumping everyone together regardless of the ethnicity, language or culture'' to call them all African?


When I use the term African I always explain that it is a continent that is marked by diversity. Both terms are problematic because they lead people to believe that all Africans are the same and all “Middle Easterners†are the same. I think when we use these terms we must first explain that these are generalizations.
You bring up the diversity of Africa only when it suits your argument of that particular context. When you use generalizations, you actually never explain that they are generalizations.  The fact that it is possible to generalize means that there are shared elements.  Anything from a family name, a national identity, a regional identity, a continental identity......etc   can be generalization.  Do you explain to people that actually there are different individuals in your family, when people use your family name? You are also forgetting the fact that your whole argument is based on generalizations, otherwise how is it possible for you, a non-Egyptian, to feel/establish a connection with Egypt? 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

When I say Egypt was an African civilization, what I mean is that it was one of many distinct and unique civilizations found on the continent, not that it represents the continent as a whole. Egypt was not Zimbabwe, Zimbabwe was not Nok and Nok was not Ghana
It is interesting that above was written by a person who keeps bringing Zimbabwe in a discussion about Egypt. Also if you consider 'African' to be just a generalization which pigeonholes societies/peoples that are unique and different from each other, then why are you so hung up on it to a degree where you get angry when people don't use it the way you like them to?  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

It’s the same problem that causes most westerners to assume that Chinese, Japanese and Koreans are all the same people speaking the same language and having the same culture. So I don’t mind using any term so long as these facts are understood.
Ok, so 'middle eastern' and 'African' must be on the same ground for you, and you shouldn't have a problem with  'middle eastern'' as long as you don't have a problem with 'African' .

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



Egypt was an African civilization which because of its geographical location was a crossroads between Africa, the Mediterranean, and Western Asia. However, they try to remove it from African by placing it in the made up "MIDDLE EAST" and try to deny the African elements in the population by classifying the peoples caucasians and claiming that they migrated into Egypt from the outside.

Originally posted by omshanti

Egypt is geographically located in the African continent but it is also in a sociopolitical zone named the middle east. It is not a matter of choosing one at the expense of the other. They are both right. Similarly, many Egyptians do exhibit physical characteristics classified as Caucasoid by the method of craniology used in biological anthropology, but this does not necessarily mean that they migrated from the outside. They can be indigenous and be classified as Caucasoid. One does not contradict the other.


I agree with what you say here for the most part, but you have to understand that many of the people using this term do not have the same understanding that you do and that is why I have a problem with its usage. This is what we call a loaded term, therefore, if we use it, we should be clear as to what it does or does not imply and not assume that people understand the context that we do.
The point is that I never used the word 'the middle east' until you brought it into the discussion, and now you also say that you agree with my reply to you. This means that the word or its usage by other people is irrelevant to the discussion you and I are having. Yet you keep bringing it in. I am not ''many of the people using this term''.  Furthermore, You can not control what people say and what people think, you know? You can not just make the world to use a word in a certain way  because you have issues with it.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

Nevertheless, from what you have been writing, I can see that you have difficulty accepting that a group of people classified as Caucasoids can be indigenous to the African continent. You basically have a very restricted notion of which physical type can be native to Africa and which can not, despite the fact that you always state how diverse the people in Africa are.


No I don’t and if you re-read my statements you will see that I only disagree with the notion that if you see a person in Africa with these feature it means always means they originated outside of Africa. In some cases, such as the Arab migrations or other Western Asians, this is true, but in other cases, what we see are people who are not migrants but people originating from within the continent.
Your posts say otherwise. You always  write that ''cold-adapted'' people can not be indigenous to Africa or that any peoples other than the ''native east Africans'' are external influences who came later to Egypt. You also  wrote this ;
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Egypt was an African civilization which because of its geographical location was a crossroads between Africa, the Mediterranean, and Western Asia. However, they try to remove it from African by placing it in the made up "MIDDLE EAST" and try to deny the African elements in the population by classifying the peoples caucasians and claiming that they migrated into Egypt from the outside.




Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Like I said, you understand the difference, many people do not and are confused by it because of the way its used in lay language. First of all the term was created by an anthropologist whose basic theory was that the Caucasian race originated in the region of the Caucus Mountains and then migrated to other parts of the world. So based on this model African peoples who have those features did not originate in Africa but migrated in. My view is that we should not be talking about a negro race or Caucasian race because the entomology is flawed.
First of all, you are the one who is talking about them. I took my time and posted pictures so I would not need to use any descriptive terms, yet you kept bringing them up based on what ''they'' say.  The fact that you keep bringing them up into this discussion that you and I are having in spite of the fact that I did not mention them, shows your excessive obsession with them. Nevertheless , my opinion is that  craniology is a very valid method and as long as you are not excessively obsessed with them they have no problems. In fact excessive obsessions will cause problems in any thing.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



As for Hawas, understand something. i travel to Egypt almost annually since 1988. I live with Egyptians, I work with them and I know historians in Egypt who know him and have dealt with him. He is not without bias he is the spokes person of the government, which is a military dictatorship. They control every aspect of the media and life in the country because they are very concerned with the image that the world, in particular, the west has of them. They want to be seen as being part of the Western society, not Africa. Why? Realize that Egypt is a former colony of the European colonialists, first the French then the English and so they have suffered the sting of racism and the brainwashing that happens within the educational system put in place by the colonizers. They were made painfully aware that they were regarded as a non white people who were inferior to Europeans in every way. Therefore they were aware of the way Africa was viewed in the eyes of the colonizers. Because of that and the additional stigma of the African slave trade, there are many Egyptians who try to distance themselves as far as they can from being associated with Africa, which they see as being backward and inferior. The ruling elite of Egypt today, (of which Hawas is a member) and those who aspire to be in that class, have adopted a European lifestyle and aesthetic. I have friends who went to the top Jesuit schools in Egypt and to this day they are still taught that European culture is the hallmark of sophistication and civilization, while the native customs of their country are barbaric and primitive. You have to dig a little deeper and know something about the societies in question and not take things on face value.

Originally posted by omshanti

This also fits the main point No.4 in the article. It is always the society or someone who disagrees with you that has a ''racist bias''. Are you yourself free of bias regarding Egypt?


Anyone who has spent significant time in Egypt or amongst Egyptians knows that what I am saying is true. I’d like to point out that what I’ve said about Egyptian society is based not only on personal observation and experience, but what has been told to me by Egyptians themselves. As I said my friends, who are Egyptians, went to these schools and this was what they experienced. As for the colorism in the society, it’s real. The question we have to ask ourselves is what contributes to the situation. We have to understand it why it exists, not deny its existence.

I’ve provided you with the following video which pretty much sums up what I and anyone who has spent time within Egyptian society know from experience and observation. Just incase the video link doesn’t work, I’ve provided you the transcript and website.
http://www.cnn.com/video/#/video/international/2007/07/08/amin.iaf.egypt.north.africa.cnn?iref=videosearch

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0707/07/i_if.01.html


â€(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SHAHIRA AMIN, CNN CORRESPONDNT (voice-over): Africa, surrounded by the Atlantic and Indian oceans, the Mediterranean and Red Seas, it is a continent awash in culture, religion, and languages. It also is rich in contradictions. And when it comes to African identity, the vast Sahara Desert draws a very distinct line.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Sahara has been one main marker which actually divided the north and the south. And on that basis people can argue that North Africa, with a particular kind of history with regard to world historical events, are very different from sub-Saharan Africa.

AMIN: We took to the streets of Cairo to find out just what that difference is.

Most of the many people we asked said they did not consider themselves African. In fact, many of them looked shocked that we would ask such a question.

So why the disparity?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a Mediterranean country, Egypt is much more attached to Europe on one hand, and as a country of the Red Sea, it is attached to the (INAUDIBLE) or Arabia in general.

And in most history that is where the interaction with Egypt in terms of invasions or trade or investment or migration were all related to these two areas.

AMIN: And it is not just Egypt. The Mediterranean Sea has brought foreign influences ashore in North Africa for centuries, impacting not only culture, but also one of the continent's main religion, Islam.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sufi orders are very common in countries south of the Sahara. The trend now in North Africa is the Wahhabi, Saudi Arabian influenced Islam has become prevalent in much of North Africa.

AMIN: It is not just natural influences at play.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Egyptians are racists to call us "unga-bunga (ph)" or "cunga-bunga (ph)."

AMIN: Historian Jill Kamil says this type of discrimination is partly a product of years of foreign rule, with it, an association between fair skin and the elite.

JILL KAMIL, HISTORIAN: We have had the Greeks and the Romans, the Ottoman Turks and the Arabs, the British and the French, all have left their mark on Egypt.

AMIN (on camera): So popular is the notion here that white is beautiful, that more and more women are girls are resorting to the use of these skin-whitening creams, which TV ads promise will make your skin fairer within a matter of weeks.

(voice-over): Add to this, the overall image of Africa as a continent of poverty, conflict and disease. And, say, experts, you have a picture of why some North Africans try to distance themselves from the continent that, like it or not, is their home.

Shahira Amin, CNN, Cairo.
You can always find this kind of situations in any society in the world.  It completely depends on what you focus on. Mr, Zahi Hawass is a scholar/archaeologist, not a teenage girl who wants to whiten her skin. You have to also note that the Sahara was mentioned in the conversation as a marker that divided the north and the south. This is against your own argument.
You also did not answer my question and just kept on with your blaming of others as usual. My question was,  are you yourself free of bias?


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



Originally posted by omshanti



This is entirely different from
what the person in the second video said. He never used the words
'indigenous' or 'native', and never said that the ''indigenous
population was a native east African one''. The closest sentence to
this was when he said ''there is no evidence to suggest that Egypt is
anything but of local origin, of north east African origin in its place
and in its time''.



No this is EXACTLY what the speaker in the second video said. "Local origin" means the exact same thing as native or indigenous. What he is saying in effect, is that the old theory that Egypt was founded by people who migrated into Africa is false. There is evidence to show they traded with people in Mesopotamia, but no evidence to show that the population of Egypt came anywhere else except East Africa. In other words, they were Africans. A people originating in the African continent, not a people who migrated in.
Originally posted by omshanti

You said it yourself without even realizing. By ''Egypt'' the speaker was addressing the civilization, that ''there is no evidence to suggest that Egypt is anything but of local origin, of north east African origin in its place and in its time'', yet you took it to mean the population.


But civilizations do not make themselves they are made by people and a population is made up of many people living in an area. You can’t separate the two things. Therefore, if Egypt was a civilization of local East African origin, it stands to reason that the people who created it were or local origin also.
No.  A civilization/culture can rise locally in a region by a group of people who are not indigenous to the region. Saying that a civilization has local origins and saying that a population is indigenous are completely different from each other. Take a look at Japan for example. The Yayoi culture originated in Japan but the Yayoi people are not the Indigenous people of the Japanese isles.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

Regarding the population, he did say : '' I do think its possible to look at modern DNA profiles and in essence determine what most likely are due to external influences of more recent time depths vs more ancient influences perhaps even going back to the paleolithic times.''. This statement shows that he does not know any study yet that shows who is indigenous. So how could he have said that ''the indigenous population was a native east African one'' as you claim him to have.


Read his statement again carefully. He said I do think it IS POSSIBLE at modern DNA profiles and in essence determine what most likely ARE due to EXTERNAL influences of more recent depth VS more ancient influences going back to the Paleolithic times. In other words, you can make a distinction between the native indigenous populations that were originally there and you can also tell which influences came into the country more recently. Therefore, what he is saying is what I am saying, the population of Egypt is made up not only of a local East African element, but elements that came into the country from other areas as well. The historical record is very clear as to who those people are and the various areas they came from and the time they arrived.
It is quite amazing how you have such a hard time figuring such an easy thing out. The speaker says that there were indigenous elements who had settled there first and external influences who came later, while saying that he thinks it is possible to determine who was which. Nowhere does he state who was which.  In short, he states that he thinks it is possible to determine, but he never actually gives the determined result.  From this, you are jumping to your own conclusions.
I think the problem is that you think humans actually evolved and originated in Egypt just because Egypt is in the African continent, and that ''native east Africans'' were the ones who came into being and evolved in Egypt therefore were there all the time. That is why,  to you, even just to mention that there were external influences, directly proves the existence of ''native east Africans''  and that they were always there. You are basically putting  conclusions before the questions, and thinking that the questions themselves prove the conclusions.   No.  As it is obvious from the fact that the speaker says : '' I thinks it is possible to determine'', either the first group of humans (indigenous people) in Egypt have not been determined yet  as far as he knows, or he is saying that to support his own conclusions and methods about it .


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

Both Mr.Zahi Hawass and the second speaker admit that it is very hard to determine the make up of the ancient population. So how can you state so surely who is indigenous and who is not when even scholars can not?


What they are not sure of is exactly what percentage of the population was indigenous African, South West Asian, or a blend of the two. Neither do I. All I do know is that all these elements were there. Exactly what percentage of the population was “pure blooded†and what was mixed I can’t say, nor do I try to.
No, they don't know what percentage of the population of ancient Egypt had settled there earlier or later. In short they don't know what percentage of the population at the time of the civilization was indigenous or not. Nowhere do they ever state the identities of the peoples  as you are doing here by saying ''indigenous African'', ''west Asian'', ''blend of the two''. You also put 'pure blooded' in quotes as if it was mentioned by someone else, but don't forget, you are the one who mentioned it.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I don’t know exactly at what point people started migrating there from Asia, but I do think it must have been very early.  
They started 50,000 years ago, much earlier than people started migrating from sub-Saharan Africa through the Sahara.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The reason, Egypt is connected to Asia by land. In prehistoric times all the peoples of East Africa, the Sahara as well as Asia were pastoralists or hunter gatherers. In any case, they depended on the animal and plant resources of an area. When they were used up or became scarce, people moved to areas of more abundance, so why would people from Western Asia have wandered in and out of Egypt? What was there to stop them? Especially when the Sahara was still green. On the other side, according to the most recent science, all humanity originated in East Africa.
You are completely missing/ ignoring the fact that humans did not evolve in north Africa (which includes Egypt) and had to migrate from equatorial Africa to the region and settle in it. They either had to come through the near east or directly through the Sahara. Geological and genetic evidence suggest that the people who came through the near east had come and settled in the region 50,000 years ago and earlier than  the people who came directly through the Sahara 8000 years ago when it was green.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

These people were dark skinned because they were tropically adapted to the climate. Eventually, people started to migrate out of Africa into other areas. One route of exit was across the Red Sea, when, due to the Ice Age, the sea levels were much lower. African and Arabia may even have been connected by land in certain places. Another route of exit, was the Nile Valley and Delta. There is no reason to suggest that southern populations didn’t migrate into the Nile Valley.

Okay, so now I'll tell you what my best friend, who is Egyptian, who is a biochemist, who was educated in the top Jesuit School in Cairo said to tell you. YOU ARE NOT GOING TO FIND COLD ADAPTED PEOPLE EVOLVING IN AFRICA. EGYPT IS IN AFRICA AND ALTHOUGH IT IS FARTHER NORTH AND COOLER, IT IS NOT SIGNIFICANTLY COOLER TO CAUSE A DECREASE IN THE AMOUNT OF MELANIN IN THE BODY. EVERY ONE WITH AN EDUCATION KNOWS THAT THE FIST HUMAN POPULATION WAS A DRAK SKINNED ONE WHICH THEN MIGRATED OUT OF AFRICA. THE PRESENCE OF LIGHT SKINNED PEOPLES ANYWHERE IN AFRICA IS THE RESULT OF BACKWARD MIGRATION. THESE ARE PEOPLE WHOSE SKINS ADAPTED TO COOLER CLIMATES WHO MIGRATED BACK INTO AFRICA. ANY OTHER LIGHT COMPLECTED PEOPLE ARE THE RESULTS OF RECENT MIGRATION, LIKE THE PEOPLE IN MANSURA WHO ARE DESCENDED FROM THE FRENCH TROPS LEFT THERE BY NAPOLEON. EVERY EGYPTIAN KNOWS THIS.

Now since you need the education, watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8edyoZFW-Lg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EyeNi6qsfs

SOMETHING TO THINK ABOUT WHILE WATCHING THIS PART: Is Egypt located in a cool zone?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LzGM1nv_oow&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCDcl9s9Vh4
This is all irrelevant since geological and genetic (mitochondrial DNA) evidence suggest that the indigenous people of north Africa were the ones who had left Africa once through the mouth of the red sea and entered north Africa through the near east.
Nevertheless, let's go through them.
The first video only presents one theory out of many conflicting out of Africa theories. If you had problems with the fact that only one of the Tutankhamun's facial reconstructions were presented by the national geographic, then why not also have problems with presenting only one theory out of many out of Africa theories?  Even if we assume that the theory presented in this video is right and that the main exodus of modern humans went through the Sahara and the Nile, what makes you think that migrating humans stayed the same in their appearance all the way, from the equatorial areas where they originated, to north Africa across the Sahara, and then suddenly changed out of the blue the moment they stepped into another continent?  The Video does say however that farming first appeared in Mesopotamia and then spread to the Nile valley which actually contradicts your argument and supports Pinguin's argument regarding the founding basis of the Egyptian civilization.

Regarading the skin colour, the second, third and fourth videos actually say completely different things from what your biochemist friend says. The videos say that  the amount of melanin in the skin is influenced by Ultra Violet light, while your friend is saying it is down to the temperature (cold or warm). As far as I know the former is right, and UV and temperature are two different things . No matter how hot or cold Egypt is, the amount of UV in Egypt is different from the amount in east African countries such as Kenya, Ethiopia...etc which are closer to the equator than Egypt.

The second, third and forth videos which were from the same TV program,  were
1)  more appropriate to the discussion I was having with Bernard Wolley than the discussion I am having with you.
2)  very preachy. Of course humans are similar to each other, because obviously they are one species, this doesn't mean that there are no distinguishable differences within humans. How about Chimpanzees? They share 98.5% of their genes with humans. Should we then not recognize the difference between them and humans?  It is like saying you should not recognize the difference between a mountain, a valley , and a flat land because they are all earth.  It just shows how hung up some people and some societies are on this issue, and the fact that you chose these videos to ''educate'' me, tells a lot about your views too.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

You also seem to have the tendency to always miss the word 'north' before 'east African'.


Originally posted by omshanti



I notice from your posts that while you always push the diversity of
the ''modern population'' forward, your main focus underneath all is
that before all the external influences, the indigenous population was
''native east African'', whose skin colour was lightened by the foreigners.



And so what is the problem with that? It is the truth.
Originally posted by omshanti

So you are 100% sure that the Indigenous people in Egypt looked like the Nubians, Somalis or Ethiopeans before the external influences? The truth is that even the scholars have difficulty determining how ancient people looked like, yet you are so sure about it and have convinced yourself that this is the truth.


And yet you don’t seem to be as outraged by those who suggest that the Egyptian population was a light skinned one and all the dark peoples are immigrants. Now why is that?
1) Most people as well as myself are acknowledging the mixture in Egypt rather than denying one at the cost of the other as you do.
2) you are the one who is hung up on ''native east Africans''  and  ''immigrants'',  and is trying to connect one's self to Egyptians in order to use them for one's own needs. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

You continue to argue for the presence of a fair skinned people how evolved in Africa, while at the same time using a term to describe them which implies that they originated outside of Africa.
As I wrote before, I only used the term in response to you when you used it. As for my own presentations, I took my time and posted pictures instead of using any descriptive terms, because I knew that you are hung up on them.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Don’t know about you, but all my maps show the Caucasus to be in Asia, not far from Russia. If you are so insistent on the presence of such a population in Africa, then its even more reason to stop calling them Caucasians.
They were named after the Caucasus mountains because of the fascination Europeans had with Caucasus at the time of the naming and also because of biblical reasons and the location of Mount Ararat in Caucasus. The naming has nothing to do with the origin. Further more, anybody from anywhere can be the first settler of a region. The first settler is what 'indigenous' means when you use it in the context of the past 120.000 years of human evolution.  So I see nothing wrong in a people who originated outside of Africa being indigenous to a region in Africa, especially when the region in question is north Africa which is connected and is very near to parts of other continents. There is absolutely nothing wrong in people who have been categorized as Caucasoid by craniology to have been originated in Africa either.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As for “convincing myselfâ€. It’s not a matter of convincing but being familiar with the latest scientific information on human origins, evolution and migration.
People can always jump into conclusions regardless of them being ''familiar with the latest scientific information on human origins, evolution and migration'' or not. Your posts are a very good example of this. That is, if we assume that you are familiar with them.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

According to our information all humanity is descended from one maternal and one paternal family line that originated in East Africa. Its also accepted scientific knowledge that all the physical difference that we see, which we call race, are the result of climactic adaptations. 
No. It is not only down to climatic adaptations. Natural selection, sexual selection, genetic bottleneck, genetic drift, isolation, extinction or survival of certain peoples with certain characteristics, pure chance as to who with which characteristics migrated where,............ etc. There are numerous factors. What you wrote here, and the fact that you advocate the idea of skin colour being influenced by temperature, actually show your familiarity with ''the latest information on human origins, evolution and migration''

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

East Africa is a very hot environment. The area where the pharaonic culture originated is located in Upper Egypt and Sudan. It’s extremely hot there. It took me two years to get rid of the sun burn scars I got in Upper Egypt. The first humans were dark skinned Africans, the melanin being produced to protect the body from UV radiation.
So you know it is UV that affects the amount of Melanin. Then why do you keep going on about the temperature?  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As people moved to areas where the sun’s rays were weaker, the body produced less melanin so that it could better absorb vitamin B.
It is vitamin D, not B.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The suns rays are weaker in northern latitudes where it is colder than Africa.
Africa is the world's second largest continent. What makes you think that all of Africa is in the same latitude and therefore receives the same amount of UV light? North Africa is on the same latitude as north of the Arabian peninsula, south of Iran, Pakistan, north of India, south of China and Mexico. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Therefore, pale skin is not a tropical adaptation. So if the population in Egypt was a native one, it stands to reason they were tropically adapted to deal with the hot climate.
Let's see if Egypt is considered tropical or not. This is a link to the Wikipedia article about the tropics. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropical . Do you see Egypt in the tropics or out of it?  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

This is not Afrocentric rhetoric but current academic knowledge.
Is advocating false information and notions based on one's own needs and desires , ''current academic knowledge''? Wow. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

So can light skinned people be native Africans?
Yes, and I have already explained why. It also depends on what you mean by ''light skinned''.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Well if they migrated there and have been living in the area for hundreds and thousands of years,
You are forgetting the fact that every group had to migrate into Egypt, as humanity did not come into being in Egypt. So migration into Egypt is not something that only some did. Every group did it.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

well of course they become native. Where else would they live? Regardless of where their distant ancestors may have come from, the only place they know as home is where they live now and have adapted their culture and way of life to deal with the environment. As I said before, light skinned Egytpains were just as Egyptian as anyone else because they all shared the same language and culture. 
This can be said about the Sub-Saharan Africans or your ''native east Africans'' as well, not only about the ''light skinned Egyptians''.  When are going to stop implying, underneath all this superficial welcoming, that ''light skinned Egyptians'' were foreigners who came later?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



How else do you explain the vast variety of skin tones in the population? Who else do you explain the fact that in many families the skin tones range from light to dark? The fact that some members in a family have straight hair while others have kinky hair? Admixture.

Originally posted by omshanti

Yes, admixture, but this answer is completely different from ''the indigenous population was a native east African one who looked like the Nubians, Somalis or Ethiopians''.


The historical record shows that the first humans were dark skinned individuals who migrated out of East African into the other parts of the continent and the world. So if the first humans were dark skinned Africans why is it so hard to believe that the first people in Egypt were in fact dark skinned Africans????
1) because it is very much likely that the first humans who set foot in north Africa had left Africa through the red sea and had entered north Africa through the near east rather than directly through the Sahara. 2) Even if they had come directly through the Sahara, it is very unlikely that their physical characteristics stayed the same all the way through as when they left the equatorial Africa. As I asked before, what makes you think that humans stayed the same all the way until the edge of the African continent and then suddenly changed in appearance out of the blue the moment they set foot in another continent.  Evolution does not have the concept of continents as humans,  you know? So you can not just draw a line between Africa and the rest of the world and say that at this side of the line people did not change and remained the same, but at the other side people changed and developed new characteristics.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Furthermore Egyptian culture evolved in the South in the area stretching from Upper Egypt into the Sudan and that at one time Nubian and Egyptian culture were one in the same. Upper Egypt was more densely populated than Northern Egypt. The culture of the south dominated the North. Southern kings unified the country. So if the population was a local one and the first humans were Africans, who were dark, why is it so hard for you to accept logic? Its far more logical to conclude that they were the same color as the people living in that part of the world today.
You write about culture in the first half of this paragraph and then suddenly jump into population and people. It is interesting that when it suits your argument you confuse people and culture, but when it doesn't suit your argument you distinguish them as you are doing here: 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

A very good article, which you fail to understand, so let me explain it to you. It is not saying that the Nubians migrated into the area 2,500 years ago. What it is saying is that there are the languages spoken by the Nubians in the Nile Valley that originated farther south in Sudan. It is saying that the Nile language spoken now splintered off from the Nuba language in Kordofan 2,500 years ago. Its like saying that the Spanish language spoken in Spain today started to develop in a different direction than Latin at a certain date.
  Any way, we were both in agreement that by the time the Egyptian culture/civilization rose many different peoples had already settled in the region, so bringing up the population of Egypt at the time of the civilization is neither here nor there. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

So if the population was a local one and the first humans were Africans, who were dark, why is it so hard for you to accept logic?
As I wrote many times, 1) it is very likely that the first population did not come through Africa. 2) even if they had, it is very unlikely that they had the same colour or physical characteristics as the peoples of the equatorial African countries, as you are claiming. East Africa and north (east) Africa are different regions, and just because they are on the same continent (which happens to be the second largest in the world) does not mean that they are the same.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Its far more logical to conclude that they were the same color as the people living in that part of the world today.
Who is ''they'' and where is ''that part of the world''?  Is they the ''local'' Egyptians and ''that part of the world''  the African continent? If that is the case I have already explained enough.



Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 03:49
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

The former answer (admixture) does explain it but the latter is not the only possible explanation. It is also possible that the lighter people were the indigenous ones who were darkened by external influences, or that both lighter and darker people were indigenous to different parts of Egypt. The fact that people are mixed and show diversity within families does not prove anything regarding who was indigenous and who was external.


Yes it does. What do we know of Egypt? We know that there was a steady migration of northern peoples into the country,
There was a steady migration from the south too. You are just simply ignoring their migrations in order to make them indigenous. The relation Egypt had with Nubia is a very well known fact, so you can't just ignore it because it doesn't suit your argument. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

which was accelerated with foreign conquests.
Nubians took over Egypt too you know?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  Look at how dark the family in the photo is.
They don't look darker than any West Asian to me. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

If they were originally a light skinned population with only minimal input of darker peoples migrating in, they would be far more lighter than they are now.  However, that is not what we see. In the North of Egypt which received the most European and West Asian migrants, the average color is a medium brown like the people in the picture, with a few very light individuals such as the actor. Even in Egypt today, very fair individuals are usually believed to be of foreign descent, usually Turkish, or are mistaken for being Syrian or Lebanese. Certain areas of the country, (all in the Delta) are known for the light complexion of its people, such as Mansura. Therefore, it is obvious that the base population was a darker one, who after centuries of mixture with lighter peoples still retain a dark huge although being on the lighter end of the spectrum. They are still are considerable darker than their neighbors in the levant.
  As I wrote, you are minimizing the ''input of the darker peoples'' so that you can make them the ''base population''. You are basically bending everything to suit your ideals. I have already written enough to show how your ideals are unlikely to be the case.  Not to mention that all this usage of words such as 'lighter', 'darker',  'how dark', ...etc is very subjective. Who are you using as the standard?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



It doesn't mean that they are any less Egyptian than a person who is dark.

Originally posted by omshanti

No it doesn't, but this aside, your statement here really shows that you have really convinced yourself that the dark ones in the country are the indigenous ones.


and your statement here shows that you have a bias
You have convinced yourself that only one out of many possibilities is the absolute truth, and I am opposing that.  How can pointing out to you that what you believe might not be set in stone as you have convinced yourself that it is, show a bias? Are you talking to mirror again?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

and rather than accepting the most logical obvious truth,
The point is that it is not ''the most logical obvious truth'' and that there are many possibilities and there is room for many other scenarios.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  have gone out of your way to defy scientific evidence and knowledge of the early history of mankind to find cold climate adapted people evolving naturally in Arid and sub tropical environments.
According to scientific evidence, cold climate is not what affects the skin colour , and all of Africa is not on the same latitude. I am simply pointing out the confusion in your views which seem to be blinded by your ideals. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Seems to be that it is you not I who are rewriting history.
I never wrote that you are ''rewriting history'', yet you write it as if you are throwing it back to me.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The fact that you would go to such lengths says something.
I don't think going in to lengths say anything. Otherwise, how about you? You are the one who made your response to me massive.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



Egypt lies at a cross roads, and so its population was drawn from many areas. Yes the oldest population was the local East African types,

Originally posted by omshanti

Here you go again. Why do you always say east African instead of north east African? Why do you try to ignore the 'north' part in spite of the fact that it adds to the accuracy with regards to describing Egypt's location in the African continent? Perhaps ''Egypt has to be put in its proper place'' in your mind too.


How many times do you need me to say Egypt is located in the North East corner of Africa?
Congratulations! This is the first time you accepted Egypt's real location. Now try to accept that Egyptians are north east Africans, not ''native east Africans''. Can you do this?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

This is not the first time you and I have discussed this now is it? Humanity originated in East Africa, not North Africa and migrated to the rest of the world from there. Therefore, since the first people in the entire world came from East Africa, then the first people in Egypt were native East Africans who migrated into the Nile River Valley.
With this logic, the first people of the entire world would have been ''native east Africans''.   
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

In time peoples from other areas in Africa found their way to the area, as well as peoples from Western Asia. Why do you have such a hard time dealing with this?
Perhaps because it is a very twisted and simplistic logic, and it is obvious that the world does not revolve around it.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

It says far more about you than it does me. Especially since I am not the one repeatedly making assumptions or accusations about your character as you have been consistently doing with me.
I never made assumptions or accusations about your character. If pointing out that your post fits the description of Afrocentrism is ''making assumptions and accusations on your character'', then the problem lies in you. But now you have officially provided me with a good reason to state that you show signs of paranoia.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

must say it is disappointing since you and I have had many conversations in private on this and other topics. You know me far better than anyone else here, yet now you go out of your way to paint me as an undercover black supremacist. Would it be fair of me to accuse you of being Eurocentric? Lets stop with the personal attacks and focus on academic and scientific facts as I have been doing in my replies to you shall we.
Where did I ever paint you as an ''undercover black supremacist''? As I wrote, I only pointed out to you that your posts fit the description given by the article about Afrocentrism, which is true. Nothing more nothing less. I actually thought that by pointing it out to you, you might see that you are not seeing things from an objective stance and know why other members label you as such.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



but over the course of its history from very archaic times, there were other people who did come into the country, either by migration or conquest. Therefore what is a real Egyptian? A real Egyptian is the total of all the forces that have impacted on the creation of the country as a whole. All the populations and the mixing of all those elements. They are all Egyptian regardless of skin color. They all share a common history culture and way of life and that is what really makes them Egyptian. Therefore a person who is light skinned is NOT a foreigner, they are Egyptian because they have been totally integrated into every aspect of the society and have been intermarrying within the society, so they are connected not only by geography, nationality but by blood as well.

Originally posted by omshanti

The fact that you say that ''a person who is light skinned is not a foreigner, they are Egyptian because they have been totally integrated'' shows again that you think the lighter people are not indigenous to Egypt.


I am making reference to the modern population which is made up of many light complected individuals who are indeed of foreign descent, which is well known and acknowledged in Egypt by Egyptians to this day. If you go to Cairo in Ezbekiya between Ramses Square and Opera Square, you will see many members of a family with very fair skin, bright red hair and freckles. I just spoke with my friend Emad, you know, the educated biochemist from Cairo I mentioned before. He told me the exact same thing I told you. Everyone knows people like this are from Mansura in the Delta and general opinion is that they are descended from French and English soldiers.
I am sure that there are many dark complected individuals who are indeed of foreign descent as well, however for some reason, I can easily imagine you to be only focusing on one side of the things.  The point is that people whose ancestors are obviously recent foreign immigrants, are irrelevant to the discussion we are having, because most Egyptians whose ancestral past is not generally known to be foreign, don't look like sub-Saharan east Africans, yet you still had to mention them just to enforce the notion that ''light complected people are foreign''.  

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As an example, this is a picture of two of my friends. The one on the right is very fair compared to most Egyptians and has light eyes. The reason is because he has considerable Turkish ancestry, which is what HE told me:
One picture of two friends does not prove anything. Nonetheless, the one on the left does not look like a sub-Saharan east African to me. He looks Egyptian and nothing else.
Don't you think it is irrelevant to bring up such recent and hence generally known external influences the modern population has received, into a discussion about the very first group of modern humans who settled in the region?  The fact that some British and French soldiers stayed on in Egypt, or one of your friends has Turkish ancestry,  does not prove anything about the Indigenous people of Egypt, not to mention that they looked like sub-Saharan east Africans.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

So if this is what the people themselves say about themselves, how am I making it up?
You don't need to make it up. You only need to direct your focus only to one side of the things.





Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

and here in the quote below

Originally posted by Tyranos



Hawass against Afrocentrism video:http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/video/player?titleID=1414281487
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone




Interesting and informative video. However, I think Hawas's comments are reflective of a cultural misunderstanding of what people mean when they say black in the context of the Egyptians. The reason is that Egyptian society does not have nor has it ever had a concept nor a need to classify its population into any particular group based on a concept of racial affiliation the way we do in the U.S. South African or Europe.
Therefore, when you say black to them, they think external skin color, not understanding that if you are speaking to an American, a person can have skin and features indistinguishable from a European and still be considered black or "negro" as was the case with Adam Clayton Powell and many like him.

you wrote that it is a misunderstanding on Mr. Zahi Hawass' part to think about skin colour when hearing black, but you yourself quite often end up talking about skin colours. So perhaps he had not misunderstood anything but had indeed addressed an existing issue.


He does not fully understand what is mean in the United States by the term Black. The fact that he keeps making reference to the materials the statues are made out of shows this. When Afro Americans show a picture of a statue, they are not talking about the dark color of the stone. They are calling attention to the features that are commonly found among African populations and people of African admixture.
Ah, so you do believe that there are certain features which are more common in the peoples of (sub-Saharan) Africa, and therefore can be representative of them.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The shape and size of the nose:



lips:





the presence of prognethism:





the texture of the hair:






Hawas did not address the issue of features which shows he doen’t understand what they are pointing out.
He did address the issue of skin colour which is obviously an exiting big issue. Your own posts are a good proof that skin colour is a big issue. It is also obvious that a lot of the interview was cut out in the video, so you don't know if he had addressed the issue you are talking about (features) or not either. Those pictures you posted are pictures of only few selected artifacts. There are plenty of ancient Egyptian artifacts which show Caucasoid features/characteristics as well. So why not also address those artifacts as well rather than only focusing on artifacts that suit your presumptions?
 The point is that it is very obvious to anybody in the world, not only in the US, that 'black' also suggests  features and not only the skin colour, otherwise people in the world apart form the US would think that people from the Indian continent are black as well.  It is also ludicrous that he, an Egyptian, has to address an issue regarding his own country's past to people who have nothing to do with Egypt, and yet they still accuse him of not understanding their terms.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



Originally posted by omshanti



So I wondered, by ''indigenous/native east Afrian'' , which type of
features are you talking about? Also the modern state of Egypt is
comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is
quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural
regions would have looked different from each other physically before
they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east
African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?

Since the topic is about the looks of people and yet it seems that when
some members try to describe or suggest physical characteristics by
conventionally understood terms, they receive very strong and negative
reactions from some other members, I will post photos instead, of some
people from the eastern part of the African continent. Perhaps you can
tell me which one of them is the closest to the look of ''native east
African'' you talk about, and maybe you can even prove that the
phenotype you choose was indeed the indigenous one of whichever part of
Egypt you are talking about.I am sure many or most people are mixed and show characteristics
between all those phenotypes below but since you are talking about an
native/indigenous population before external influences, I picked
those pictures/phenotypes accordingly.



You are right in that all these people are East Africans. I don't dispute this, in fact I agree with it. And it is much better to show actual photos rather than using broad terms. As you can see from the photos, because of the diversity of types in the areas, we should try to be more specific. The only problem is that the Nubian, Ethiopian and Somilis are classified as caucasians, which is misleading. They claim that only the phenotypes you showed of the Sudanese and Kenyans are Africans and that all the others are CAUCASIANS, meaning they a part of the White race, originating outside of Africa, but   What people of African descent have maintained and still do is that ALL the types you showed are native Africans.

Originally posted by omshanti

''They'' are not here. You are communicating with me, and I posted photos without classifying a single phenotype in the pictures. Yet you are still going on about who should not be Caucasoid, who is not part of the white race, who is native African ....etc. Would you please reply to me rather than ''they''?


I have been replying to you. You are using terms that were created by a certain group of people at a certain time and in a certain context and I am explaining to you why it is problematic.
Just read back our posts carefully. I took my time and posted pictures instead of using any descriptive terms. I did not classify any of the phenotypes in the pictures either.  Yet you kept going on and on about how '' they'' classified who as caucasians, how you think who is African, how ''they'' have mislead people.....etc. I only used the terms in my responses to you, not in my own presentations, and that is because you brought them up in such a twisted fashion that needed correction. You are basically so rapt up in your head about what ''they'' say that you just don't see what I am saying. This is why I wrote I am not ''they''.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  Now back to the topic and the point I was making...But since you don't want to hear it from me, you perhaps you will feel less threatened if a white person says it to you:
See, you are confusing my personality with ''theirs'' here again. To me whether something is said by you or by a white person does not affect whether I agree with it or not. You are basically judging my personality based on your perception of ''them''. I am starting to think that perhaps this ''they'' is just a part of yourself.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

http://mutnodjmetsmusings.blogspot.com/
I actually like this article. I think it is very objective. Do you not realize that it actually supports what I have been saying and that it contradicts with what you have been saying? You have been saying that the very first people in Egypt were ''native east Africans'', whereas the article says that the Libyans and the people from the horn of Africa entered the Nile valley at the same time and settled in different parts of it and later blended with each other and formed the basis for Egyptians.
It also supports the reconstruction of Tutankhamun's face that you oppose.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-daBOKyF4yM
This video basically says that the Sphinx can be the face of a black person from the Zulu tribe who were in North Africa when the Sahara was green and who migrated south when the Sahara turned into desert again.  This  does not contradict with my view that the sub-Saharan Africans were able to migrate to north Africa when the Sahara tuned into a grassland for a couple of thousand years 8000 years ago, which is long after the people who came through near east had settled in north Africa 50,000 years ago.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



As you can see, none of those peoples would ever be mistaken for anything other than an African. They are not Europeans, they are not Asians and they would never be mistaken for Indians even though Indians are also dark.

Originally posted by omshanti

The Egyptian actor played the role of a Pashto Afghan in a recent film called The kite runner. The Egyptian family and the football team can be from anywhere in west Asia. Some of the Somali girls can be mistaken for Indians (as in from the Indian continent).


Yes I know. I saw the movie and if you go back and look at it, you’ll see that he was miscast as far as physical type is concerned. The whole time I kept thinking to myself that he looked like an Egyptian, now I know why. The fact that he was cast in a movie means nothing. He is an actor telling a story.
Yes, but they surely would not have cast a person who they thought does not look the nationality of the character he is playing, and the author who is an Afghan himself was heavily involved in the casting. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

This was no a national geographic documentary. Didn’t you ask yourself how come he looked nothing at all like the character who played him as a child?   How many people do you know who have pin straight hair as kids and crow up to have hair that is so curly its almost an afro in adulthood?
Just because the child actor who played the childhood character did not look like him does not mean that he did not look his part. Whether you accept it or not,  I have seen plenty of west Asians who look like him. You don't have to be from the African continent to have curly hair, you know?  That kind of curly hair is very common in west Asia.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



Now with regards to the modern Egyptians you showed. I'll remind you of what I said about the fact that Afro Americans and by this I include all of Latin America and the Caribbean, not just the USA. We are not full blooded Africans, we are in fact mixed. Realize that there are many individuals in the Afro American community, in the States, Caribbean and Latin America who look just like these people.
Originally posted by omshanti

The fact that the people of African diaspora who are mainly a mix of west Europeans and west Africans, look so similar to modern Egyptians who have none of these in their mixture, actually supports the classifications based on craniology, because according to the classifications, both can be considered mixes of Caucasoids and Negroids. You are supporting the classifications you so despise without realizing.


No I’m not. I’m showing the contradictions. How can one call an Afro American a negro, yet call an Egyptian of the same physical type a Caucasian? Where is the logic? Its hypocritical and shows the arbitrary nature of the ways in which these labels are applied and understood.
I never called an Afro-American a ''negro'' and an Egyptian a ''Caucasian''. Are you talking to ''they'' again? Now realistically speaking, regardless of what ''thay'' say, aren't they both mixes of Caucasoid peoples  and Negroid peoples based on craniology? It is obvious however that the percentage of mixture is quite different between them, which is why Afro-Americans generally look more like sub-Saharan Africans and Egyptians more like Mediterraneans. So you are relying on the fact that both have same components, but ignoring the fact that the amount /percentage of each component in each group is different.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



The father could be my uncle and the son looks like my cousin and little brother. Understand that had any of the Egyptians in that family been living in the United States as recent as 45 years ago, they would be classified as negroes based on appearances and denied access to most public facilities and services which were reserved for whites only. As for the actor, there are millions of Afro Americans who are even lighter than he is.
Originally posted by omshanti

I am sure that there are so many Mediterranean people (such as Italians or Spaniards) who are darker than the Egyptian actor. Nonetheless, when are you going to be done with comparing Egyptians with Afro-Americans? And how long are you going to classify people based on who would have had access to which public facility, who would have been escorted to the back of the bus ...etc in the united states 45 years ago. Would you mind showing the validity of the methods you are using to classify people, in the context of ancient Egypt? This part of your post fits the main point No.1 of Afrocentrism described in the article I provided.


And when are you going to understand that my whole contribution to this thread has been to explain why Afro Americans see things the way they do?  If I keep making reference to them it is because I am trying to get you to understand what they mean by the term black. I am trying to explain to an international community what is meant by black and why in an American cultural context. That is the whole point. I am explaining a perspective based on its cultural and historical context for a community of people who may not be aware of it.
That is the whole point. That your whole point is to bring an irrelevant perspective in order to justify what you are claiming for your needs. This fits the description given in the article.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  Now can you stop your childish antics and stop calling me an Afrocentricist unless you want me to start insinuating that you are a white supremacist with a chip on your shoulder. I think its quite unnecessary.
I never ''called'' you an Afrocentrist. I pointed out that this paragraph of your post fits the main point no.1 given in the article. Now look what insults have you started?  Perhaps you have to stop your paranoia, your childish interpretation of things and your childish insults.


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



There is no one phenotype or skin tone that is representative of the entire population. What you encounter in Egypt are people who for the most part are a medium brown like the family, but a significant portion of the population may be a few shades darker and there are many who are much lighter. One tends to find that the percentage of lighter people are in the Delta, while in Upper Egypt the percentage of darker people is higher. It would be better if we could see up close photos of the soccer team because then you would see what I mean about the diversity of phenotypes.

So when you look at the population, you see people who reflect the mixture of all the East African types as well as characteristics of Western Asians and Mediterraneans. So its not unusual to find people who look exactly like the Ethiopians and Somalis, or a very light skinned person with straight hair who has the same nose as the Sudanese actor.

Originally posted by omshanti

I am not disputing the diversity and mixture of Egyptians at all. I have seen many Egyptians myself. I used to have an Egyptian friend who looked like the famous Italian football player Roberto Baggio but with a lighter hair colour. However, we are talking about the Indigenous population before external influences, not the present mixture.


Well then since you have such a hard problem with the idea that the first people there were dark complected, the burden of proof falls on you to show the presence of an indigenous light complected people originating in East Africa. Happy hunting.
  I have already explained enough that the idea you advocate might not be the case and have provided enough possibilities which are different from what you are advocating. I have also addressed the confusions in your notions countless of times. You also don't seem to realize that many sources that you have provided contradict and say different things form what you are saying. The burden falls on you then to clear from your head this ideal image you have of things which is blinding and confusing your views.  


Originally posted by Rakasnumberone



So when I say East African, I mean the Somali, nubian and ethiopian phenotypes, however, there was input from other groups as well.

Originally posted by omshanti

I know that there was input from others as well, but we are talking about the indigenous people, meaning the first input. If you are saying that the input from the other groups took place at the same time as the very first input, that all the groups participated in the first input and in the making of the indigenous population, then how can only the Somali, Nubian and Ethiopian phenotypes be indigenous/native?





From the archeological evidence skulls of the Sudanese types have been found in Egypt in the earliest periods as well as types fitting the Ethiopians and Somalis. There have also been skulls that were similar to Mediterranean types found as well. So all this suggest just what I have always been saying, which is basically the population was made of peoples coming from different areas of the south, south east and south west. These were the first people there, but add to that people who did migrate in from Western Asia in the north and you have Ancient Egypt. Add to this mix all the populations of Persians, Assyrians, Greeks, Romans, Arabs etc and you get the Modern Egyptians. They are the sub total of all the historical events that have shaped the country.
Originally posted by omshanti

So you do believe in craniology and studying the skulls. The very method upon which the classifications you deny are based.
You write that skulls of Sudanese types, Ethiopian types, Somali types and Mediterranean types were found, but in the next sentence you write that this all suggests that the population was made up of peoples coming from the South. What happened to the poor old Mediterranean type skull? Did it come from the south too? In order to prove something, you have to either give a very good logical explanation which leaves no room for other explanations/oppositions or show evidence. Would you like to direct me to a study or an article about the ancient Egyptian skulls, so I can see it for myself? Did the skulls belong to the pharaohs or average people? How old are they?


God this is getting tiresome.
Of course it must be tiring, because the idea you are pushing forward has full of holes in it, yet you don't realize that  and every time people point them out you go berserk.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  Let me say it again. The original population was a native African one,
This is the point, 1) genetic evidence suggest that the oldest group of humans in north Africa came through the near east. 2) You seem to be confused regarding what native or indigenous mean in this context. It means the first modern humans who settled in the region, and not people who originated in the region,  because humanity did not originate in Egypt and every group had to migrate into Egypt at some point in time. 3) Even though you yourself showed to have issues with generalizations when used by others, you seem to have no problem thinking that being ''African'' means uniformity, hence your logic that humans stayed the same throughout the continent and only changed/evolved the moment they set foot in another continent. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

but they were not the only people in Egypt during its early history. There were also peoples from Western Asia who migrated into Egypt. Eventually they died, they rotted and at some time thousands of years later, an anthropologists dug them up and measured their skull. This article was written by the second scientist in the video clip. You know…the one who spoke after Zaki Hawas….. He is a professor at Howard University and is also affiliated with the Smithsonian Institution.
You tried to discredit Zahi Hawass who is one of the most prominent Egyptologists in the world. So whether someone is a professor or affiliated with a certain institution must not mean any thing.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

http://www.forumcityusa.com/viewtopic.php?t=318&mforum=africa
One thing that is so obvious from this article is that the writer is only concentrating on ''African'' or sub-Saharan African elements in Egypt. He did not for example refer even once to the fact that modern humans who came through the near east to North Africa were there since 50,000 years ago, which is older than any of the evidence he is presenting.

''These questions can be addressed using data from studies of biology and culture, and evolutionary interpretive models.''
I agree, but they should be addressed with an objective mind that is ready to let the evidence lead the conclusion, rather than letting the conclusion lead the evidence.

''Archaeological and linguistic data indicate an origin in Africa. '' 
Of course they indicate an origin in Africa. Egypt is located in the African continent. However 'Africa' can mean so many things as we know, so whether I agree or disagree depends on what the writer means by 'Africa'. It would have been more helpful to state precisely as to where in Africa. I find this to be an Afrocentric tendency. To simply state the obvious fact that Egypt is ''African'' while leaving it very ambiguous and vague as to what 'African' suggests. The focus is more on labeling Egypt as ''African'' rather than the content of 'African'.  Regarding the linguistic evidence, it is either irrelevant or it actually proves that the ''African'' component came into Egypt less than 10,000 years ago. Afro-Asiatic, the language family to which the Egyptian language belongs to, did most likely originate in the horn of Africa, however it rose and dispersed around the time when the Sahara turned green around 8000 years go. This means (on the assumed basis that linguistic movement correlates with human movement) that if humans had already settled in Egypt before 8000 years ago, it does not prove anything about the first settlers. On the other it shows that there was a substantial immigration from the horn of Africa to Egypt around 8000 years ago, which actually contradicts the writer's stance that there was no notable immigration from other parts of Africa into Egypt.

''Biological data from living Egyptians and from skeletons of ancient Egyptians may also shed light on these questions. It is important to keep in mind the long presence of humans in Africa, and that there should be a great range of biological variation in indigenous "authentic" Africans.''
I agree with this part, but then why push the African-ness of Egypt so much forward when it is so obvious that it is in the African continent and when it is agreed that there can be a great range of biological variation in Africa?

''Scientists have been studying remains from the Egyptian Nile Valley for years. Analysis of crania is the traditional approach to assessing ancient population origins, relationships, and diversity. In studies based on anatomical traits and measurements of crania, similarities have been found between Nile Valley crania from 30,000, 20,000 and 12,000 years ago and various African remains from more recent times (see Thoma 1984; Brauer and Rimbach 1990; Angel and Kelley 1986; Keita 1993).''
What does 'African' mean here? Various African remains from where?  
Similarities have also been found between Nile valley crania and the Mediterranean populations, but no mention of that.

''Studies of crania from southern predynastic Egypt, from the formative period (4000-3100 B.C.), show them usually to be more similar to the crania of ancient Nubians, Kushites, Saharans, or modern groups from the Horn of Africa than to those of dynastic northern Egyptians or ancient or modern southern Europeans.''
Of course the southern Egyptians would show similarities to all those peoples mentioned, because they were neighbours, but why only examine southern Egypt? Why not also include Northern Egypt which has as neighbours the Libyans, west Asians and the Mediterranean populations?

''Another source of skeletal data is limb proportions, which generally vary with different climatic belts. In general, the early Nile Valley remains have the proportions of more tropical populations, which is noteworthy since Egypt is not in the tropics. '' 
This means that the remains were not of people who had adapted to the climate of Egypt, which in turn means that they were not isolated long enough if at all from the people of where they came from, which subsequently contradicts the claim that immigration from the south was minimum.  Are the remains from before or after 50,000 years ago when people who left Africa once through the red sea entered north Africa?

''This suggests that the Egyptian Nile Valley was not primarily settled by cold-adapted peoples, such as Europeans''
Of course not by the Europeans, why state such an obvious fact? What is the range of  ''cold-adapted peoples'' by the way ? Who is in it and who is not? Are the peoples of the Arabian peninsula or Libya included in the ''cold adapted peoples'' or not?

''Art objects are not generally used by biological anthropologists. They are suspect as data and their interpretation highly dependent on stereotyped thinking. However, because art has often been used to comment on the physiognomies of ancient Egyptians, a few remarks are in order. A review of literature and the sculpture indicates characteristics that also can be found in the Horn of (East) Africa (see, e.g., Petrie 1939; Drake 1987; Keita 1993). Old and Middle Kingdom statuary shows a range of characteristics; many, if not most, individuals depicted in the art have variations on the narrow-nosed, narrow-faced morphology also seen in various East Africans. This East African anatomy, once seen as being the result of a mixture of different "races," is better understood as being part of the range of indigenous African variation.''
Narrow nosed and narrow faced is not only found in East Africans. It is also found in many west Asians and many Mediterranean peoples. The fact that the East Africans were mistaken to be mixed shows that these characteristics are also found elsewhere, where the supposed components of the mixture came from.


''The descriptions and terms of ancient Greek writers have sometimes been used to comment on Egyptian origins. This is problematic since the ancient writers were not doing population biology. However, we can examine one issue. The Greeks called all groups south of Egypt "Ethiopians." Were the Egyptians more related to any of these "Ethiopians" than to the Greeks? As noted, cranial and limb studies have indicated greater similarity to Somalis, Kushites and Nubians, all "Ethiopians" in ancient Greek terms.''
Here he is saying that the Greeks called all groups south of Egypt as 'Ethopians', while saying that the studies (which are more focused on presenting only the ''African'' or sub-Saharan African elements found in Egypt) indicated that the Egyptians were more similar to the peoples who were called 'Ethiopeans'.  He ignores the fact that the Greeks who created this usage of the term 'Ethiopian' did not include Egyptians in it and distinguished the Egyptians from the 'Ethiopians' . Basically, the first half of his paragraph is either irrelevant or contradictory to the second half of his  paragraph.

''There are few studies of ancient DNA from Egyptian remains and none so far of southern predynastic skeletons. A study of 12th Dynasty DNA shows that the remains evaluated had multiple lines of descent, including not surprisingly some from "sub-Saharan" Africa (Paabo and Di Rienzo 1993). The other lineages were not identified, but may be African in origin.''
The other lineages were not identified, meaning that they could be any thing, yet the writer is already implying conclusions. Also 'African' in what way? North 'African', east 'African' or sub-Saharan 'African'? Why put 'sub-saharan' in quotes, when he is the one presenting the study? Is he implying that there is no Africa lower than or to the south of the Sahara? Then where did those lineages come from?  
 
''More work is needed. In the future, early remains from the Nile Valley and the rest of Africa will have to be studied in this manner in order to establish the early baseline range of genetic variation of all Africa. The data are important to avoid stereotyped ideas about the DNA of African peoples.''
I agree, although the same thing can be said about any continent in the world. Also in order to find out about Africa and put it into perspective, the areas which were connected to it such as west Asia or the Mediterranean if not the whole world should be studied as well. It can not be just be separated from the rest of the world.


''The information from the living Egyptian population may not be as useful because historical records indicate substantial immigration into Egypt over the last several millennia, and it seems to have been far greater from the Near East and Europe than from areas far south of Egypt. "Substantial immigration" can actually mean a relatively small number of people in terms of population genetics theory. It has been determined that an average migration rate of one percent per generation into a region could result in a great change of the original gene frequencies in only several thousand years. (This assumes that all migrants marry natives and that all native-migrant offspring remain in the region.) It is obvious then that an ethnic group or nationality can change in average gene frequencies or physiognomy by intermarriage, unless social rules exclude the products of "mixed" unions from membership in the receiving group. More abstractly this means that geographically defined populations can undergo significant genetic change with a small percentage of steady assimilation of "foreign" genes. This is true even if natural selection does not favor the genes (and does not eliminate them).''
What does he mean by ''areas far south of Egypt'' ? Whether there was more immigration from west Asia or Europe, completely depends on how far south he is talking about, and whether Nubia, Kush, Sudan and the horn of Africa are considered by him or not.
The second half of this paragraph also contradicts the first half. If 'substantial immigration' can actually mean a relatively small number of people, then any immigrating group, or the act of continuous immigration itself regardless of the number, would be 'substantial'. Now, it would be impossible that there was no immigration from places such as the Sudan, Nubia, Kush or the horn of Africa into Egypt.
He is basically trying to say that even if the immigration from west Asia or Europe were in small numbers they were still substantial, without seeming to realize the drawback of this logic on his theory, that he is also substantialising the immigration from the south.
As far as I can see, he is minimizing the immigration from the south and maximizing the immigration from Europe and west asia, in order to prove that the southern components found in Egypt are the base components.

''Examples of regions that have biologically absorbed genetically different immigrants are Sicily, Portugal, and Greece, where the frequencies of various genetic markers (and historical records) indicate sub-Saharan and supra-Saharan African migrants.''
Whether the people who immigrated into Egypt were genetically different from the people who were already there, completely depends on the genetic make up of the people who were already there. Since the genetic makeup of the first settlers in Egypt is what is in question here, deciding that the immigrants were genetically different is presumptive.

''The genetic data on the recent Egyptian population is fairly sparse. There has not been systematic research on large samples from the numerous regions of Egypt. Taken collectively, the results of various analyses suggest that modern Egyptians have ties with various African regions, as well as with Near Easterners and Europeans. Egyptian gene frequencies are between those of Europeans and some sub-Saharan Africans. This is not surprising. The studies have used various kinds of data: standard blood groups and proteins, mitochondrial DNA, and the Y chromosome. The gene frequencies and variants of the "original" population, or of one of early high density, cannot be deduced without a theoretical model based on archaeological and "historical" data, including the aforementioned DNA from ancient skeletons. (It must be noted that it is not yet clear how useful ancient DNA will be in most historical genetic research.)''
Here he admits that the gene frequencies of the original population can not be deduced without a theoretical model based on archaeological and historical data, which means that the conclusions can completely depend on how the archaeological and historical data are viewed and which elements the focus is on. From the whole article, it is obvious that the writer's focus is on one side of the things rather than all the sides.


''It is not clear to what degree certain genetic systems usually interpreted as non-African may in fact be native to Africa. Much depends on how "African" is defined and the model of interpretation.''
I completely agree with this.

''The various genetic studies usually suffer from what is called categorical thinking, specifically, racial thinking. Many investigators still think of "African" in a stereotyped, nonscientific (nonevolutionary) fashion, not acknowledging a range of genetic variants or traits as equally African. The definition of "African" that would be most appropriate should encompass variants that arose in Africa. Given that this is not the orientation of many scholars, who work from outmoded racial perspectives, the presence of "stereotypical" African genes so far from the "African heartland" is noteworthy.''
They are only as noteworthy as the presence of other genes, which certainly are there, but not being focused on in this article.

''These genes have always been in the valley in any reasonable interpretation of the data.''
No modern human gene has ''always'' been in the Nile valley, because modern humans did not evolve in the nile valley. There must be a time when their presence started, and as far as the evidence shown in this article go they don't go back further then 30,000 years, which is newer then the oldest population in North Africa.

''some of the "Asian" genes may be African in origin. Modern data and improved theoretical approaches extend and validate this conclusion.''
This is one of the possibilities I have been explaining all along.



Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

By the way regrading south to north movement, I found an interesting article in Wikipedia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nubia
Recent studies in population genetics suggest that there was a south-to-north gene flow through the Nile Valley. [1] Similarly, linguistic evidence suggests that the Nubians in the Nile Valley were related to peoples originally from the south or southwest. Comparative historical research into the Nubian language group has indicated that the Nile-Nubian languages must have split off from the Nubian languages still spoken in the Nuba Mountains in Kordofan, Sudan, at least 2,500 years ago. [2]

According to this, the Nubians in the Nile valley originally came from central Sudan at least 2500 years ago, which means that they must have originally looked like the Sudanese people. However the Nubians in the wedding picture did not look like the Sudanese people but like a mix of Egyptians in the pictures and the Sudanese. Since according to the article, they came form the south and were not indigenous to the Nile valley, and we can see that their colour has lightened due to mixing with the people who were already there, the indigenous people in the Nile valley must have looked lighter coloured than today's Nubians in the region, which would be similar to the colour of the Egyptians in the pictures.


A very good article, which you fail to understand, so let me explain it to you. It is not saying that the Nubians migrated into the area 2,500 years ago. What it is saying is that there are the languages spoken by the Nubians in the Nile Valley that originated farther south in Sudan. It is saying that the Nile language spoken now splintered off from the Nuba language in Kordofan 2,500 years ago. Its like saying that the Spanish language spoken in Spain today started to develop in a different direction than Latin at a certain date.
Interesting. Here :
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The historical record shows that the first humans were dark skinned individuals who migrated out of East African into the other parts of the continent and the world. So if the first humans were dark skinned Africans why is it so hard to believe that the first people in Egypt were in fact dark skinned Africans????
Furthermore Egyptian culture evolved in the South in the area stretching from Upper Egypt into the Sudan and that at one time Nubian and Egyptian culture were one in the same. Upper Egypt was more densely populated than Northern Egypt. The culture of the south dominated the North. Southern kings unified the country. So if the population was a local one and the first humans were Africans, who were dark, why is it so hard for you to accept logic? Its far more logical to conclude that they were the same color as the people living in that part of the world today.
  when it suited your argument, you used culture to prove  the identity of the populations. Now when it doesn't suit your argument you are separating languages which are a cultural trait from populations and are saying that languages just travel by themselves without human movements. If the languages split off 2500 years ago in Sudan, it either means that there was a human movement from there at that time or at least that there was enough continuous contact between the populations to alter the languages. Both of them can result in admixture which is exactly what I was saying.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The first thing it says is that genetics show there was a south to north gene flow through the Nile Valley.
The point is that the article is presenting the genetic evidence and the linguistic evidence together and in one context. What is the point of mentioning a genetic evidence that has nothing to do with the linguistic evidence mentioned directly afterwards in the same paragraph? It is saying that the genetic and linguistic evidence match each other and indicate the same thing. This is why they are presented together.  You are basically trying to separate the two evidence presented together in this article, to say that the former is much more ancient therefore is about the first settlers. You are reading the article through your presumptive conclusions.
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Recent genetic evidence is once again saying exactly what I have been telling you all along. The Nile valley was originally populated by people moving up from the South.
No. Recent genetic evidence is indicates that the Nile valley was originally populated by a mix of peoples both from the south and from the north. You are only focusing on parts that fit your ideal scenario.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Last point. Despite the amount of times its been told to you, you still don’t understand. Sub Saharan Africans do not all look the same.
When did I say that they all look the same. I am only saying to you throughout that there must be a uniformity between them in order for you to say what you have been saying. Nevertheless it is irrelevant to what we are discussing right here.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

They are all different physical types. Sudan is made up of many different ethnic groups, they don’t all look the same. There are Nubians who look like the people in that picture, but there are also Nubians who have a more Central African look.
Doesn't this on the other hand mean that the Nubians in Sudan who look like the people in the picture are also a mix of Egyptians and the Sudanese, which in turn shows that there was a lot of interaction between the people in Sudan and Egypt, which contradicts with your stance that there was minimum immigration from Sudan to Egypt as an external influence.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  and  It depends on which group they belong to.
No, it also depends on which groups are they a mix of.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  All of them are East Africans,
Do you include north Africans in your ''east Africans''? If not, then my answer would be no, because apart from ''east Africans'' there definitely are north African elements in Sudan as well. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

but the Africans located to the farthest East are those in the Horn of Africa
Of course, east of Sudan is the horn of Africa. This is an obvious fact which is irrelevant here.

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Since you like pictures so much, here a last one for you.
I am neutral to pictures . When I posted the pictures I explained my reasons here :
Originally posted by omshanti

Since the topic is about the looks of people and yet it seems that when some members try to describe or suggest physical characteristics by conventionally used/understood terms, they receive very strong and negative reactions from some other members, I will post photos instead, of some people from the eastern part of the African continent. Perhaps you can tell me which one of them is the closest to the look of ''native east African'' you talk about, and maybe you can even prove that the phenotype you choose was indeed the indigenous one of whichever part of Egypt you are talking about.
I am sure many or most people are mixed and show characteristics between all those phenotypes below but since you are talking about an native/indigenous population before external influences, I picked those  pictures/phenotypes accordingly.
with regards to why I chose to post pictures. So stop your petty bickering. 


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 03:53
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

One of these people is an Ancient Egyptian and one is a modern East African person form the Horn of Africa. Can you tell which is which?  Notice the high degree of similarity between them.
Of course I can tell the difference, It is written under them. As with the similarity, they don't look especially similar to each other in comparison to all the mummies and peoples in the world. The mummy looks like any old person in the world. I have seen plenty of old Japanese people looking like that mummy. Not to mention that it also looks similar to the Peruvian mummies, mummies of Urumuchi or even a mummified monkey at the cairo museum. The point is that you can't compare a simple picture of a mummy with a simple picture of a living person and make conclusions the way you are doing.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshnati

You also did not answer my second question which was : the modern state of Egypt is comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural regions would have looked different from each other physically before they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?
I did answer you when I said all of the East African types with the excetion of the Modern Egyptians who a re a blend of all the types you showed as well as people migrating in from the north.
Do you not get it? I am asking the indigenous population of which region in Egypt are you talking about? Lower Egypt or upper Egypt or lower nubia? I asked which phenotypes in my first question. This was my second question. Let me quote it so you can remember :
Originally posted by omshanti

So I wondered, by ''indigenous/native east Afrian'' , which type of features are you talking about? Also the modern state of Egypt is comprised of ancient lower Egypt, upper Egypt and lower Nubia. It is quite possible that the indigenous peoples in each of these cultural regions would have looked different from each other physically before they were unified. So by ''the indigenous population was a native east African one'', which one of those regions are you talking about?
Do you remember now?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

If people would just simply admit that Egypt was and is what it is, there would be no controversy. But it is the continued attempts to remove it from the context of the continent by denying the darker elements that causes the problem.
Originally posted by omshanti

As far as I can see from your posts, you are in denial of a lot of elements as well. The fact that every time you write about Egypt, comparisons with Afro-Americans or the African diaspora pop up show that you are not viewing Egypt from an objective stance either, which is exactly the reason you are called Afrocentric.
You know what the problem is? Although you speak English very well, it’s clearly not your first language and therefore there is a lot that flies over your head when it comes to basic comprehension.
Really? what about my question above, which took you so long and so much explanation to understand? You can't just insult my English ability just because I disagree with you or consider many of your arguments irrelevant to the issue we are discussing.  The point is that I understand what you are trying to say when you bring up your comparisons of ancient Egyptians with Afro-Americans, or when you blame everything and everybody apart from yourself. But I just don't agree with them and also consider them irrelevant. Not to mention that you keep bringing them up very persistently and become very angry when other members don't apply your standards to their views.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I’m not trying to insult you, just stating a fact which I’ve made abundantly clear in the reply which at this pint is 34 pages long. As I have said from the beginning, I am only explaining the cultural and historical point of view of these people. What the term black means in an American context and why Afro Americans perceive them to be Black when they see them. That does not make me Afrocentric.
You are not just explaining, you are using them to justify your standards and are trying to make others to also use those standards.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  I think it is extremely closed minded of you to not be able to objectively understand the perspective of a group of people just because it makes you feel insecure on some level.
I understand their perspective. I just don't consider it to be appropriate and refuse to switch my perspective to theirs as you expect me too.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As I have repeatedly said on more than one occasion, race is a cultural construct. Do you even understand what I mean by that I wonder?
Yes. I just don't agree with it.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Each society has a different way of defining who is what. In order to have any discussion about an issue of race, you have got to understand what the perception of race is in the context of that particular society.
I agree with this. Remember, I am the one who wrote this post : http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=21537&PID=397215#397215 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=21537&PID=397215#397215 . However the society in question here is ancient Egypt, not the Afro-American society in modern times nor the victimhood of the African diaspora. To be objective, we should consider ancient Egypt from a universal point of view, rather than the perspective of one group. You on the other hand keep getting angry when people don't just switch to the Afro-American perspective.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The original comments were with regards to Zahi Hawas’s statements. All I am doing is showing where the truths lay and where they do not.
No, all you are doing is to expect Zahi Hawass to see through the Afro-American perspective, and call him a ''racist'' when he does not. All you are doing is to go on and on about the victimhood of Afro-Americans and to blame the rest of the world of ''racist bias'' or ''racist conspirasy'' when their views don't agree with your ideals. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  The African origins of this civilization made by Afro Americans is a valid one.
Yes, if their claim is about Egypt being in the African continent, it is valid, but it has no point because it is so obvious. If not, then the validity completely depends on what it is meant by ''African''.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  The claims that it was superior to all other civilizations is not, nor is the claim that the Egyptians had influences all over Africa and Europe that are not substantiated by historical record.
Nor is their usage of  Egypt as a tool to prove the intelligence and to raise the self-esteem  of black people. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The claim of racism in the sciences….. for god’s sake anyone with even a high school education knows that. Look at the second video tape again. What do you think he means by “THE MISTAKES MADE IN THE PAST� He’s politely referring to RACIST ATTITUDES.
The point is the amount of the focus given to this racism in science. As your video says they are in the past, yet  Afro-Americans need to keep focusing on them because they need to be the victim. The victimhood is part of their identity, therefore when people don't agree with their views, they blame it on the ''racist attitudes'' in science even today.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The original comments were with regards to Zahi Hawas’s statements. All I am doing is showing where the truths lay and where they do not. The African origins of this civilization made by Afro Americans is a valid one. The claims that it was superior to all other civilizations is not, nor is the claim that the Egyptians had influences all over Africa and Europe that are not substantiated by historical record. The claim of racism in the sciences….. for god’s sake anyone with even a high school education knows that. Look at the second video tape again. What do you think he means by “THE MISTAKES MADE IN THE PAST� He’s politely referring to RACIST ATTITUDES.
  Those claims that you are talking about were the 4 points given in the article I posted about Afrocentrism, and apart from the first one have nothing to do with ''the original comments with regards to Zahi Hawass' statements''. The fact that you say that all  you are doing is to point things out with regards to Zahi hawass' statements and then bring up points that have nothing to do with his statements, shows that you are not doing what you say you are doing.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

It is quite well known that according to population genetics based on mitochondrial DNA and y-chromosome, people in sub-Saharan Africa show greater diversity than the rest of the world. However mtDNA and y-chromosome prove absolutely nothing about external appearance or who their carriers really were because they make up a tiny part of the entire human genome. They are simply a very good tool to trace the movements of ancient populations because they mutate in a relatively fast pace, which also means that the longer the time of human occupancy of a region, the more diverse the mutations can be in that region. Since Africa is the homeland of modern humans, we can easily see that the humans have occupied Africa longer than the rest of the world hence the bigger diversity in their (especially the Khoisans') mutations of mtDNA and y-chromosome. Regrading externally visible physical characteristics (which the topic is about), I think that ''sub -Saharan Africa is more diverse than the rest of the world'' is a myth. We just have to pick a north east Asian, south east Asian, a Semang, an Indian, a European, a Papua New Guinean, a Melanesian, an Australian aboriginal, a Polynesian, a native American..etc person and put them all next to each other, and then also pick some people from any different parts of sub-Saharan Africa and do the same. We can then see which group has a greater diversity in their looks.
<FONT face=Arial size=2>I agree that mtDNA and y-chromosome studies cover a very small proportion of the human genetic code, but you would have to make the case to me why you think the diversity registered in that small part of the code would not also be reflected in the other parts of the code.It's definitely not a myth that Sub-Saharan Africans are unusually diverse. Aside from curly hair, I can think of no feature or trait that is characteristic of Sub-Saharan Africans in general. I also can't think of any feature or trait that's supposedly characteristic of any non-African population that isn't present among populations in Africa.Fundamentally, the human species is relatively young and hasn't gone through any significant changes yet. There have been a couple of regional bottlenecks where local diversity was lost, but nothing significant has been added to the gene pool that isn't present in the source population (Africa). Whatever apparent differences there are between various populations are so superficial and mutable, and flow so gradually into each other, that any attempt to classify them has to be largely subjective.
This is exactly the point many of us have been trying to make as to why we are not comfortable with the term "negro". Its limited to one very specific physical type. The term negro and Sub-Saharan African are used interchangeably when in fact, as you mentioned there is a great range of physical types in the region. There is no one physical type that can be used to represent all of Africa below the Sahara. If we look at West Africa and choose three countries, Guine, Nigeria, and Senegal, you come up with at least 3 different physical types. If you go to Congo, Malawi and South Africa, you will find different types as well. This negro thing is another example of what I talked about of the West's attempt to homogenize people by creating imaginary regions and pretending that they are all the same in terms of language, culture and physical type. It is not true or accurate. Therefore, they come to Africa with preconceived notions of what an "African" should be and when they encounter people who do not fit their artificial model, they either pretend they don't exist or try to make them somehow a part of a non African group.
Originally posted by omshanti

If the sub-Saharan African people are so diverse, how can you (as a voluntary representative of the people of African diaspora) connect with Egyptians based on looks. If it is possible for you to connect with Egyptians the way you do, then it means that there is a certain unity between the looks of sub-Saharan African people, which consequently supports the classifications you despise and deny. So which one is it? Are the sub-Saharan Africans so diverse or do you support the classifications by connecting yourself with Egyptians?
I guess your basic lack of English comprehension has also contributed to the fact that you failed to notice that I mentioned that African Americans are in fact the products of racial mixing as well. We are not racially pure.
I did not fail to notice it at all. Otherwise how could I have written this :
Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Now with regards to the modern Egyptians you showed. I'll remind you of what I said about the fact that Afro Americans and by this I include all of Latin America and the Caribbean, not just the USA. We are not full blooded Africans, we are in fact mixed. Realize that there are many individuals in the Afro American community, in the States, Caribbean and Latin America who look just like these people.
The fact that the people of African diaspora who are mainly a mix of west Europeans and west Africans, look so similar to modern Egyptians who have none of these in their mixture, actually supports the classifications based on craniology, because according to the classifications, both can be considered mixes of  Caucasoids and Negroids. You are supporting the classifications you so despise without realizing. 
as this quote shows, you are the one who failed to notice what was written. So now, what does this prove about your basic English comprehension, despite the fact that it is your first language?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Seeing as how you, are also a racial hybrid, half Persian and Japanese right, I would have expected that you of all people would understand that racial mixing between two or more groups results in a variety of physical types.
Racial mixing does result in variety of physical types but it does not result in any variety of physical types without any rules. Otherwise you can find the same variety of physical types in any mixed group regardless of the components in the mixture. The variation of physical types within a mixed group does not extend beyond the original physical types of each component involved. In short, a mix of Australian Aboriginal and a Chinese would not look like a British person, or a mix of European and sub-Saharan African would not look like an east Asian person. This means that  if two mixed groups have similar varieties, it is very likely that they have similar components.  Furthermore you seem to have no problem with using the word 'race' here. I thought that you disagreed with it.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The Egyptians were a people of African admixture. They were a mixture of several African physical types with several non African physical types. When you have mixture like this the result is going to by heterogeneity, (do you know what that word means? It means a variety of looks not just one). Some individuals will show characteristics found in the different African groups, others will show non African traits, most will be a blend of all the above.
No matter how diverse the Egyptians are, they would not show the characteristics of a component that is not present in their mixture. Since Egyptians do not have west sub-Saharan African components (which are the main components that contributed to the mixture of Afro-Americans) in them, but yet still Afro-Americans can claim to have similarities in their looks to Egyptians, there must be a certain uniformity between the looks of west sub-Saharan Africans and the ''Africans'' who contributed to the mixture of Egyptians. I am saying that this contradicts your statement that sub-Saharan Africans are very diverse in their looks, and that it supports the classifications based on craniology. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

  So why is it so hard to believe that another group of people also of African admixture will have a high amount of people who have a similar look to the other group of Mixed Africans?
As I have written countless times, this completely depends on what is included in 'African'. I do not have difficulty believing. I neither believe nor disbelieve, and am open and neutral as long as everything fits well.  Here, I am only pointing out to you the contradiction between talking about the diversity of ''Africans'' in one place and pushing a theory which is based on all ''Africans'' having  similar looks, in another place.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

You don’t honestly think that I’m trying to say that the two are the same people do you,
No, but I can see that you need to have a connection with Egypt, and by connection I am not meaning direct descent or being the same people. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

because that would be very stupid. What I am saying is that in the United States, people who look like this, who have this type of genetic makes up, are considered BLACK. Therefore, from this cultural perspective, the Egyptians, because they are of similar extraction are considered BLACK as well.
See this is a very good example of you trying to justify your ideals by pushing your own standards, which are irrelevant, to other people.  
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Not the same group, but a similar group.
Similar in that they share the same components according to the classifications based on craniology.  This is why I am saying that you are supporting the classifications you despise.   
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

The burden of proof now falls to you to turn academic and scientific knowledge upside down to show the existence of people evolving traits adapted to cold climates like pale skin in an arid sub-tropical environment like East Africa, or as you would say, NORTH East Africa. Which I would just like to once again point out, is not that significantly cooler than the tropical areas further south.
As I wrote so many times, skin colour is not affected by temperature but by UV light which changes according to latitude not climate. 'East Africa' which seems to be your favorite term does not normally include Egypt, nevertheless if you are just meaning the east side of the African continent, then the latitude completely depends on each country and region on it and you can't just generalize them with regards to latitude.  North Africa which includes Egypt is on the same latitude as north of the Arabian peninsula, South of Iran, Pakistan, northern India, southern China and Mexico. Now, are the people in these regions included in ''cold-adapted'' for you? As far as I can see, it is perfectly natural for the people of Egypt to have similar characteristics (especially the skin colour)  as the people of the Arabian peninsula, because they are both connected by land and are on the same latitude. The burden is not on me to prove anything but on you to let go of your ideal image of Africa, which seems to be the cause of the confusing usages of terms such as 'east Africa'.   
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I've also provided you with a map.
A very good map. I like it. It is the one which was on the video you had posted earlier and I addressed it then too. Would you like to put a link for it so I can see it better? Anyway, let me point some things out for you again. 1) This is one out of many 'out of Africa' theories. there are scientists who say that humans migrated out of Africa through two roots, there are some who say the exodus only went through the Sahara and some who say it only went through the mouth of the Red sea. There is no agreement what so ever regarding how many times the exodus happened either. Some say it was only once, some say twice and some say many times. There is no agreement about the amount of humans who participated in the exodus too. Basically, there are numerous theories and they all differ from each other depending on the scientist. The map you copied must be Dr. Spencer wells' map since it is taken from the National geographic. So what I would like to say is, when you had such a huge issue and disagreed profoundly with the fact that only one out of the three Tutankhamun's facial reconstructions was presented on National Geographic, why not also oppose the fact that only one map out of many theories is presented on National Geographic?  Isn't this double standard?  2) We have to note that all out of Africa theory maps show the roots the very first migrants travelled, not where they settled, this means that these migrants did not necessarily settle evenly in every single region that the lines showing their roots passed through. This is why physical characteristics of humans the world over are not distributed evenly according to geographic relations and sometimes there are dramatic differences between the looks of the people of neighbouring regions or regions with similar evolutionary effects (such as the latitude). This happens because different groups of people who had evolved elsewhere according to where ever they were isolated, go and settle later in regions where the first migrants had not settled. Having this in mind, it is more likely that  people only settled in the Nile valley when the Sahara dried up, which is much later than the initial migration of the first peoples, which in turn means that you can not just say that certain peoples have always been there just because the lines of the first migrations passed through them.  3)  Even If we assume that this map is correct and also that the Nile valley was settled by the first migrants, it does not necessarily mean that these first migrants whose migration must have spanned over many thousand years, did not evolve and change in their physical characteristics as they migrated and settled in different regions. If we look at the map, the origin of modern humans is not even on the map because it comes from further south than the map shows. The map only locates the oldest common ancestors of all humans named Adam and eve around lake Victoria. This does not mean that humanity originated here.  According to archaeological data, humans might have originated in south Africa which might be where the lines come from in this map. Now if we think about this, and the size of the African continent, and the fact that the initial migrations took thousands of years, it is very unreasonable to think that humans did not evolve and remained unchanged all the way from South Africa to the Nile valley. If we look at the map, we can see that the line that goes through the Nile valley goes directly to the levant and to Europe. So my question is, what makes you think that humans remained unchanged in their appearance all the way from lake Victoria (if we consider Adam and Eve as the origin) to the Nile valley, and then suddenly changed out of the blue when they set foot in the Levant?4) How do you know that Adam and Eve looked like the people of the horn of Africa or east Africans of today? This idea is based on the assumption that people who stayed did not change at all.    
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Perhaps those terrible Afrocentrics at NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC are all delusional as well.
I never called anyone delusional, so why do you bring the word 'delusional' as if I used it somewhere to call you? A Freudian slip perhaps?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

On the subject of light complected Africans, the only population fitting this description are some of the Berber populations of North West and North Africa.
I have seen so many Egyptians or non-Berber north Africans who were as light coloured as the Berber people. So if the Berber people are your standard for ''light complected'', then your statement here is incorrect.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

These people were depicted by the Ancient Egyptians as being white skinned, far lighter than themselves, who were generally depicted as being brown in color.
Why not also state the fact that they depicted the Nubians as black skinned, far darker the themselves.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

All modern scientific information indicates that these people are of Eurasian origin migrating along along the southern coast of the Mediterranean in the remotest period of prehistory,
Whether they are of Eurasian origin or not is irrelevant if they were the first peoples who settled in and populated North Africa, which makes them the indigenous population of the region. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

yet when I say it, I'm called a racist and delusional. Well this is what mainstream science has to say about it.
Who called you a racist and delusional? I never did. Another Freudian slip?
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people#Genetic_evidencehttp://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/04/lactose-tolerance-gene-supports.htmlhttp://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/
The first link says that most north Africans regardless of their ethnicity, are predominantly of Berber origin. Egyptians are north Africans aren't they? The second and the third are the same article and in it was written ''We found that the frequency of the –13910T allele predicts the frequency of lactose tolerance in several Eurasian and North African Berber populations but not in most sub-Saharan African populations. '' Why do you think that they say that they did not find the frequency in most sub-Saharan African populations? Why did they not mention the other north Africans who are not ethnically Berbers?  The three links combined together indicate the story that the oldest population which settled in north Africa came from the near east 50,000 years ago, and then later another wave came from the near east which brought pastoralism, agriculture and the lactose tolerant genes, and blended with the older population.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

As I said before, and as everyone with at least some education knows by now, pale skin is not an adaptation found in tropical and subtropical environments. When found in Africa it is always the result of backward migrations into Africa.
As I wrote many times, that if there were no settlers in the region already and the people who came from the near east were the first people to populate north Africa, this makes them the indigenous population of the region and therefore where they came from becomes irrelevant. Also calling their migration ''backward migration'' is odd because as you can see from the map you yourself copied, they left the horn of Africa through the mouth of the Red sea and entered north Africa through the Sinai. They never actually migrated ''backwards''. So to call their  migration ''backward'' would be ignoring the size of the African continent. which is not surprising since you seem to have an idealized notion of this uniform Africa.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by omshanti

Rakasnumberone.  I was thoroughly entertained by your emotional post.I have already provided the article describing Afrocentrism and explained point by point as to why your posts fit its descriptions so well and since you could not handle it well (I thought I was being nice by actually pointing out to you the reasons why other members consider you Afrocentric rather then just labeling you without explanation) and have resorted to petty bickering  and insults throughout your post, I will skip most of your post trusting the readers to decide (I would really appreciate it if you could at least make it clear as to who wrote what in your quotes so other members could tell the difference between what I wrote, Bernard Wolley wrote and you wrote)  and will directly address the main issue between us. The indigenous people of Egypt. Who was the first modern human in Egypt?  The oldest indigenous North African mtDNA line is dated to have arrived from the Levant around 50,000~30.000 years ago (upper Paleolithic era). About 1/8 of maternal gene lines in North Africa come from more recent migrations from sub-Saharan Africa and over half are recent movements south from Europe and west from west Asia. This adds up to a view of north Africa as a recipient of ancient migrations from further east as it is the case with Europe, rather than from the south through the Sahara desert. In other words, there is no evidence of a exodus from sub-Saharan Africa into north Africa, but rather of an exodus out of Africa through the southern end of the red sea from the horn of Africa, to the near east and north Africa.  This is also supported by the article you posted from wikipedia.Berbers are the indigenous peoples of North Africa west of the Nile Valley.<span ="mw-line"><span style="font-weight: bold;"></span>Genetic evidence</span>In general, genetic evidence appears to indicate that most North Africans (whether they consider themselves Berber or Arab) are predominantly of Berber origin and that populations ancestral to the Berbers have been in the area since the Upper Paleolithicera. Berbers appear to be largely descended from a group or groups ofpeople who expanded west from an eastern origin, along the southern rimof the Mediterranean sea, beginning perhaps as much as 50 000 years ago. Significant proportions of both the Berber and Arabized Berber gene pools also derive from more recent migration of various groups who have left their genetic footprints to varying degrees throughout the region.The unique patchwork of savannah and forest that is sub-Saharan Africa is effectively separated from the rest of the world by two sets of gates and corridors. For the last couple of million years these corridors have acted like huge livestock corral, with several gateways alternatively open and closed. One gate led to the north over the Sahara, while the other led east, across the mouth of the red sea. Which gate was open depended on the glacial cycle and determined whether mammals including humans went north or east. Normally an unforgiving desert, the potential route to the north opens only when variations in the earth's orbit and the tilt of its polar axis produce a brief episode of of warming. This fleeting event in geological time happens only once every 100,000 years or so. When the Sun's heat causes a polar meltdown and a warm and humid global climate ensues. The Sahara, Sinai and the deserts of Australia grow lakes, become green, and flower in the short geological spring. But because this warm interlude is so brief the north African weather gate can act as a deadly trap to migrants. The most recent interglacial optimum was only about 8000 years ago. For perhaps a couple of thousand years the Sahara was grassland, and all kinds of game from the south spread throughout north Africa. The earlier interglacial known as the Eemian or Ipswichian, came 125,000 years ago. The southern route however opened 80,000~70,000 years ago at the threshold of a prolonged glaciation when huge volumes of water were locked up in ice sheets and when the sea level fell sufficiently for the normal water exchange between the Indian ocean and the red sea to almost stop. This means that since the appearance of modern humans, they had only two chances to go directly from sub-Saharan Africa to north Africa, the first of which at about 125,000 years ago is too early since the rapid distinction of the parent of modern humans Homo helmei is just around this time, which marks the completion of the birth of the modern humans. This leaves the second chance at around 8 thousand year ago, which is long after the humans had colonized north Africa from the other route through the horn of Africa and the near east. Around 8 thousand years ago and a couple thousand years after it when the Sahara turned into desert again from grassland, the indigenous north African people who had colonized the lands 50,000 years ago and the migrants from the sub-Saharan Africa who had entered the region when the desert had turned into a grassland, settled along the Nile river and mixed with each other. This explains as why there are no Berbers to the east of the Nile valley despite the fact that they came from the east, because they mixed with the migrants from the south along the Nile and formed the basis for the Egyptians.<a name="Y-chromosome_DNA" id="Y-chromosome_DNA"></a><h4><span ="editsection"></span> <span ="mw-line"></span></h4>
The tone of your post was quite clear
The tone of my post was exactly the same as my first post with which you had no problem
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

and since you know that I don't like being accused of being called what amounts to being a black supremacist you were fully aware of what you were doing.
I did not accuse you without a reason, your posts do fit the description in the article and I simply pointed that out.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

You know full well that I was only explaining something from a cultural perspective,
No, because from your posts it is obvious that you were not just explaining a cultural perspective. You were pushing it and forcing it. Not to mention all the irrelevant victim mentality and paranoia which are apparent in your posts. 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

yet you twisted what I had to say around to make me fit your perception.
No I did not. As you can see in my post, I simply pointed things out from your post as they were, and they did fit the description.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

This just tells me that that is your opinion of me all along.
No, otherwise I wouldn't have written this :
Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I'm really not too certain what Afrocentrism is supposed to be. I've encountered some really bizarre characters and theories claiming to be Afrocentric, but I wonder if this isn't a case of a legitimate cultural and intellectual movement being hijacked by some fringe elements. In any case, if the issue is to foster a legitimate reevaluation of African culture, people and history, both on the continent and diaspora, honoring the complexities of these cultures, I'm for it. If all it is is just the flip side of a white supremacist coin, then I want nothing to do with it at all.
I agree. I put "Afrocentrism" in quotes because I'm not sure the word actually has any meaning beyond what people who don't like it say it means.
I used to have the same opinion as the quote above regarding Afrocentrism. However I found an article in National Geographic website which describes Afrocentrism and realized that your posts fit really well with the descriptions given in it.  It is very ironic because you provided me (who was not sure what Afrocentrism was and if it really existed), with very good examples of Afrocentrism with your own posts.
 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Had it been otherwise you would have worded things differently.
I did word things differently from what you are making them to be.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

I went through the definition point by point. There was nothing in anything that I wrote previously to indicate I was Afrocentric. POINT 1 the Egyptians were black. I explained previously why this is a problematic term, however, I explained why from the point of view of what is considered Black in the USA, the Egyptians would fit that description, as well as why Afro Americans in particular perceive them that way based on physical characteristics, that is all.POINT 2 Egypt was superior to all other civilizations: I pointedly stated several times that I think Egypt too often dominates African history. How then could you conclude that I am Afrocentric based on this?POINT 3 Egypt has influenced other cultures in Africa and Europe: Where did I ever say anything like that??POINT 4 There has been a conspiracy to suppress all of the above. Stating the historical truth that racism effected every aspect of life in this country is true. The ideology of white supremacy is real and did effect domestic and international policies, that it was the driving justification behind colonialism is TRUE. Stating an unpleasant fact does not make me a racist.
I already went through this earlier in this post, and also if you read my original post, it is apparent that your post fits the description. So read it back calmly with an open mind.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

So you deliberately went out of your way to contort my words,
No, I took my time to straighten the discussion because you kept twisting it by irrelevant things and your paranoia. Although I can see that from your contorted point of you, a straight view can look contorted.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

to take the conversation in a direction that I never intended it to go and you wonder why I was upset?
You are always upset when people disagree with you.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Then have the nerve to act like you were doing me a favor. If your actions were well intentioned, you would have said something along the lines of, "the reason why people think you are Afrocentric is because..." Rather than stating blatantly as you did, "YOU ARE AFROCENTRIC".
Ok, below are quotes from the parts in my post where I used the word 'Afrocentrism'.
Originally posted by omshanti

I used to have the same opinion as the quote above regarding Afrocentrism. However I found an article in National Geographic website which describes Afrocentrism and realized that your posts fit really well with the descriptions given in it.  It is very ironic because you provided me (who was not sure what Afrocentrism was and if it really existed), with very good examples of Afrocentrism with your own posts.
Originally posted by omshanti

The fact that you expect me to understand the significance and the context of the black and white issue in the US, the Slavery of African people in modern times, abuse of racial classifications, ''how racist the whole society controlled by the whites is'', viciousness of the  ''racist'' mentality in the US, how the white world is downplaying the blacks......etc when the topic at hand is about ancient Egypt, shows your stance regarding ancient Egypt, which fits really well with the description given in the article about Afrocentrism. The subject is about ancient Egypt and should be scholarly, and not tied with the sociopolitical issues of the black people in America.
Originally posted by omshanti

So basically you are using ancient Egypt as a tool to increase the self esteem of the people of African diaspora and to prove the intelligence of black people. This is exactly what was written in the article about Afrocentrism.
Originally posted by omshanti

What you wrote here is a very good example of the main point No.4 of Afrocentrism described in the article.
Originally posted by omshanti

This also fits the main point No.4 in the article. It is always the society or someone who disagrees with you that has a ''racist bias''. Are you yourself free of bias regarding Egypt?
Originally posted by omshanti

I am sure that there are so many Mediterranean people (such as Italians or Spaniards) who are darker than the Egyptian actor. Nonetheless, when are you going to be done with comparing Egyptians with Afro-Americans? And how long are you going to classify people based on who would have had access to which public facility, who would have been escorted to the back of the bus ...etc in the united states 45 years ago. Would you mind showing the validity of the methods you are using to classify people, in the context of ancient Egypt? This part of your post fits the main point No.1 of Afrocentrism described in the article I provided.
Originally posted by omshanti

As far as I can see from your posts, you are in denial of a lot of elements as well. The fact that every time you write about Egypt, comparisons with Afro-Americans or the African diaspora pop up show that you are not viewing Egypt from an objective stance either,  which is exactly the reason you are called Afrocentric.
As you can see, I actually did write something along the line of what you yourself consider well intentioned.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

So now that i answered you and did not hide my anger, you take that as the opportunity to ignore all the valid points that I did make.
As you can see, I did not ignore them.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Now you quote an article to me that says basically the same thing that I was saying all along. The fair skinned peoples in North Africa migrated in from Western Asia, they did not evolve there.
I think your are misunderstanding the meaning of the word 'indigenous'. We are discussing the origin of modern humans, therefore in this context which spans 125,000 years of modern human evolution and migration to the world , 'indigenous' means the first people who settled in a region.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

It doesn't matter when the back migration happened 50,000 yrs ago or 5,000,000. The fact is that as I said the population in Egypt was made up of native East Africans who never left the continent and were therefore tropically adapted, as well as lighter skinned people from the north. You took this conversation all over the place being bent out of shape over nothing, now you are showing me articles that I read and sent to you in the first place to prove what?
You are completely missing the point. According to what I wrote which was based on the book Out of Eden written by the world renowned geneticist Stephen Oppenheimer, and supported by your own links,  the people who entered north Africa through the near east were the first to populate the region, therefore were the indigenous peoples of the region.
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Egyptian culture and civilization is not the result outside influences, but local cultures from the Southern, South East and West that stretched from Mali in the West to Egypt and Sudan in the East. The population in the country was diverse, but the culture itself was one that originated in the continent and migrated north to become the dominant unified culture of the country. End of story.
Now you have switched back into not separating culture from populations, after discrediting what I presented by saying that languages travel without human movements, and separating culture and people. Nevertheless, how about the spread of farming and agriculture from Mesopotamia to Egypt 10,000 years ago. This was also mentioned in one of your own videos. Would the Egyptian civilization/culture have risen without farming and agriculture? 
Originally posted by Rakasnumberone

Originally posted by pinguin

Egyptian civilization was heavely influenced by the civilizations of the Middle East, long before other civilizations existed in Africa. You purposedly forget that.
Penguin, you and your other personality Omshanti, (I'm quite certain you are both the same person), are fishing for a debate. I have no intention of having a debate. I only joined the discussion to share some information not to argue about Egypt this Egypt that. You came in and took the conversation somewhere i had no intention of going.Penguin/Omshanti You are a racist plain and simple. That's why you feel the need to use and defend outdated terms like negro. I have one more reason why its distasteful. Because when you start to categorize people in such a fashion it dehumanizes them. They are no longer unique individuals but things to be put in neat little boxes. this is the reason these categories were made in the first place.I already told you I have nothing to say to you, now I'm telling your other personality Omshanti the same thing. If you think I sit around the house worrying about Egypt, I don't. To be perfectly honest, I could give a shit about it. They are all dead and I'm alive and even if they were all as black as shoe polish, it doesn't make a difference in my life. Why I do and the person I become in life is totally dependent on what I do TODAY. As I said, the only significance Egypt has is that it proves the idea that intelligence is linked to race or skin color is false. That was my basic premise all along, but rather than seeing that, you try to drag me into a debate, which you are still trying to do now, and further instigate trouble by calling me an Afrocentricist. Disgusting mind set.I think you are the absolute scum of the earth and beneath my contempt. And lest i be tempted to answer you, I discontinue my affiliation with this site. So by the time you read this, i'll be gone. Whatever you have to say in reply...... you can choke on it because I wont be reading it. I should have left months ago, but I let myself be suckered into staying by you, pretending to be Omshanti, begging me to stay, just so you could bate me into having more meaningless debates with you. you have a problem where black people and Africans are concerned and everyone here with any honesty knows it.I have neither the intention time nor the energy to waste on bullshit any longer.
This is the most ridiculous post I have ever seen on AE. Just for the record, I am not Pinguin. and this is the post you are referring to when you wrote ''pretending to be omshanti, begging me to stay'': http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=21537&PID=397529#397529 - http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=21537&PID=397529#397529 Let me explain the situation in which I wrote this post. You and I were having discussions in a few threads. I disagreed with your views and you fell in a fit of anger and started saying that you are going to leave the forum. Since you were a new member then and I didn't know that this is simply your tendency, I thought it must have been my fault, so I apologized and asked you to stay in the forum, after which I simply beat around the bush and never disagreed with you openly.  


Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 12-Jul-2008 at 03:55

Originally posted by pinguin

Crying racism is a tactic that doesn't work in here. A black person don't have the right to falsify history at all, just because its skin is darker. We don't allow whites to falsify history (nazis and communists, for example), why should we allow black activists to do the same because they are blacks? Nonsense.

 

The fact is you are a charlatan, I am afraid, that insist in forgeting the influence of the Middle East into Egypt. You forget it because it doesn't fit in your model of the world and the idealized Africa of your dreams!

 
Very much true Pinguin. I really agree with you.

Originally posted by Vorian


There is no need to prove that sun is warm. Get over of your complex.
Good analogy Vorian.


Posted By: Bernard Woolley
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2008 at 15:19
Sorry to re-animate this discussion, but I'm afraid I'm not very good at letting an argument go.
 
Originally posted by omshanti

I myself never consider something that the science at its present stage has not been able to explain or is in the dark about, as ''unscientific'' just because of that reason, and always try to remain open.

The fact that the results of the studies based on supposedly ''scientific'' methods such as the studies of the mtDNA/Y-chromosome can vary so much between each scientist also shows that something ''scientific'' is not necessarily more accurate or objective than something ''unscientific'' either. Thus, I personally prefer an objective, balanced and inclusive basis over a ''scientific basis''.

I agree that an open mind is necessary, however I prefer to start from zero and add facts as they're confirmed than to start with an assumption and then adjust it as new facts appear.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

Now it is time for you to make the case to me why you think the diversity visible to the eyes are only superficial and would not be reflective of or correspond to what is inside. To do this you have to show that externally visible characteristics are not controlled by internal elements such as the genome. You have to also note that genetic science is still very young and is only able to show the tip of the iceberg at its present stage.

By superficial I don't mean that outer elements are unrelated to internal ones. I mean the outer differences between humans are themselves largely insignificant.

As I wrote in my previous post, significance or insignificance of something is also a very subjective matter. What makes mtDNA and Y-chromosome more significant than the parts of the genome which control externally visible physical characteristics? In my opinion a balanced view is a view that takes into consideration every single aspect and factor possible than a view which considers one aspect worthy and another unworthy of attention regardless of the factors involved.

That’s just it, though. The concept of race was created by attributing undue significance to specific aspects that were deliberately selected to prove the hypothesis of those who created the concept. It was a theory that sought out its evidence, not one that evolved from its evidence. I think it's more reasonable to shelve it pending better evidence than to persist with it.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Humans the world over are amazingly unvaried in size, shape, features, behaviours, etc. compared to other species (even those with much smaller distributions).

As a species, meaning a group of living organisms consisting of similar individuals capable of exchanging genes or interbreeding, modern humans despite their relatively very young age on earth, are not necessarily unvaried in their size, shape, features, behaviours compared to other species. For example, lions are a species with a much longer existence than modern humans. They can not interbreed with other species of the felidae and produce fertile offsprings, just as humans can not interbreed with other species of the primates. As far as I can see they are less varied than modern humans, yet it was still possible to classify them into 8~12 subspecies. As far as variations exist (no matter how slight) in any aspect, classifications are possible, and modern humans certainly do not look like copies of each other.

Those minor variations in size, shape, etc. that do occur in various human populations occur at a much more local level than between the so-called 'racial' divides, and reccur in similar environments accross the globe, irregardless of 'race'. For instance, people from mountainous areas the world over tend to skew towards a shorter, barrel-chested frame. This is not a characteristic of African or Asian or European peoples generally, but a local environmental adaptation that flourishes when it's beneficial regardless of what 'stock' the population comes from. Although humans don't all look like clones of each other, their range of variation isn't terribly different in different areas.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

I suspect that the only reason anyone ever felt the need to sub-classify humans at all is that we're naturally attuned to dwell on the small aesthetic differences that do exist betwen each other.

Classifications are simply a matter of identification/comprehension, nothing wrong about the act of classification itself unless it is abused with a twisted motive. If you are against classifying humanity at all, than why not also oppose the classifications based on male/female lines too?
The fact that you write 'aesthetic differences' about visible physical differences shows that you are more concerned with appreciative perception of them rather than taking the differences free of aestheticizing and for what they are. No wonder you are against classifications based on looks, because the moment you classify the differences with aesthetical attachments, you are grading the differences.
Regarding classifications based on externally visible physical characteristics, humans have evolved an extraordinary capacity for recognizing and remembering a large number of different faces. We need this skill partly because our extended social groups are large. They are larger, and the interactions between their members are far more complex, than those of even our nearest living relatives, the Chimpanzees. We have to be able to recognize many people. Failure to identify people you should know is quickly noted as a weakness. Along with the social advantages it provides, our ability to recognize faces enables us to classify what we see, and identify shared physical similarities within groups , and differences between one group and another. Clearly this can and does feed into our inclusive and exclusive group behaviour, and is what can lead us to discriminate against outsiders who look different. Luckily our insight into our own innate tendency to group and exclude, and the terrible crimes against humanity that can result from organized racism, have led us to take statutory and voluntary steps to control and proscribe such behaviour. A by-product of the fight against racism has been to render discussion of race taboo. Even the word 'race' itself, tainted forever by the Nazi era, is outlawed by many people as ''unscientific'', derogatory, meaningless, and given the misleading impression that races are discrete entities when in fact variation, gradation, and admixture occur everywhere. This is all very worthy , but the fact remains (as children are quick to notice) that people from different regions can look dramatically different from one another. In the end, putting race in quotes, proscription and regularly changing euphemisms do not help. Most alternative terms for race such as 'population' or 'ethnic group' are so vague as to be just misleading.

There are a great many skills and behaviours that humans evolved over time that are absolutely inappropriate to the modern context, and classifying people at a glance is one of them. It was very useful (it still is, I suppose) to know who is your close cousin and who is not. It is much less useful – and much less accurate - to try and figure out which group of millions of people are more like you than another.

The mechanism that we use to identify close relations (generally, the shape of the face) becomes less and less accurate the further removed the relation. Not only does it necessitate an increasing focus on smaller and smaller commonalities as the group becomes bigger, it also leaves more and more room for subjectivity in deciding who belongs in which category (among those that share some commonalities, but not others).

While differences between people certainly exist, attempting to force huge groups into artificially delineated 'races' is hugely problematic. If 'population' or 'ethnic group' are vague concepts, 'race' is even moreso, and practically random by comparison.

Incidentally, 'ethnicity' is not a euphemism for race. It refers to a cultural or national identity, not a biological one. I also consider 'population' to be a better word than 'race', because it generally (in my experience) is used to identify localized groups – not giant agglomerations – that can be much more defensibly identified as relatively complete and discrete entities.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

We have to distinguish which gradual flows and which elements are due to intermixing, and which ones are due to natural gradual change. Both can be the case depending on the region and the physical element in question. If we consider humanity as a tree, there are regions where two different branches meet and create a gradual flow by merging, and regions where one branch grows different smaller branches gradually.

I have no problem thinking of the human family as a tree - although, as you noted, it's a crooked, gnarled old pine of a tree - but I'd also like to make sure we're clear on what's represented on the branches.

Actually, humanity can be represented by numerous trees, not only one. In each of the cell nuclei humans have tens of thousands of genes, each with their own history that can be mapped as a tree.

I agree, which is why I consider adherence to a rigid classification system inaccurate. As our understanding of human genetics improves, it becomes less and less necessary to classify humanity through broad generalizations.

Originally posted by omshanti

The trees can also be based on more externally visible elements

But there are so many "externally visible elements", you run into the problem of which ones to choose, and how to decide how significant any apparent differences are. The fact, for instance, that a small group of humans crossed Beringia to the Americas, and then re-diversified into almost the full range of human variation in size, shape, colour, etc, shows that there has been very little loss or change in the human genetic code, even in the farthest-flung populations.

Originally posted by omshanti

or even non-physical aspects such as the languages as well.

I consider language to be as good an ethnic classification scheme as any (though still hardly an exhaustive one) - at the very least, the languages people speak have undeniable significance in their lives.

Originally posted by omshanti

Basically, there can be numerous trees each with a different shape and a different element represented on the branches. None of them are wrong. In order to understand modern humanity fully and to create a more accurate picture of the whole, one must take into consideration every single tree, rather than choosing or dismissing one or the other based on ''scientific basis''. I explained this in my previous post as well, when I wrote:

It’s not a matter of being ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ – it’s a matter of being useful or useless. As far as I’m concerned, the one potential value that can come from classifying humans is for medical purposes. For example, as people from this or that background are more susceptible to this or that disease, they should get this or that test more often. But our ever-increasing understanding of the genes that control susceptibility to disease are bringing us closer to a point where we can individualize these kinds of considerations. This is much better than statistical generalizations, because it’s individuals who get sick, not racial groups.

Even from a standpoint of pure anthropological curiosity, it makes little sense to insist on classifying a person or group of persons according to an artificial standard that almost invariably ignores part of their biological heritage (throughout history, isolated populations have been few and far between).

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

that any attempt to classify them has to be largely subjective.

Yes it is subjective depending on which aspect(s)/element(s) the focus is on. For example we can think of two ways of classifying humanity, by mtDNA/Y-chromosome haplogroups and by lactose tolerance/intolerance. Depending on which one of them you focus on and which method you use, the classifications can differ significantly and they would not match with each other at all, but neither is wrong. There can be numerous classifications and all of them to be right. With regards to craniology, despite the fact that it was abused and used in a morally wrong way in some places, it is a very valid method in biological anthoropology. The fact that the whole evolution of hominid species was mapped out using this method speaks for itself. The question is, can the validity of the method be separated from the emotional turmoil its abuse in the past causes? Can the Nazi abuse of Swastika be separated from the validity of Swastika in Hinduism, Buddhism and many cultures in the world? This completely depends on the individual, and also is in many cases, controlled by the political situation of the given place and time.

While craniology is helpful in some cases, it isn't helpful in all of them. It's natural to use craniology to track the evolution of hominids, because the changing shape and size of the head was by far the most noticable and important development in hominid evolution. It's also much more meaningful to track skeletal changes that occur over intervals of hundreds of thousands or millions of years, than to try and pick out the miniscule differences that appear in the space of thousands or tens of thousands of years, and assign them the proper significance.

As an example: sundadonty was identified by observing skeletons. Originally, though, it was presented as evidence that South-East Asians are a hybrid of East Asians and South Asians - the pre-existing bias of those who made the determination. Genetic evidence, however, suggests that this is precisely the wrong conclusion, and that sundadonty is in fact ancestral to sinodonty.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Sexually reproducing animals don't mutate by moving to a new place - they mutate by having offspring. So, the small amount of diversity that does exist in the human genome is a factor of generational time much more than it is a factor of space -

Yes, naturally and very obviously sexually reproducing species mutate by mating and having offsprings, but space also plays a role, because the greater the space the less chance for mixing/blending and more chance for isolation which can develop certain characteristics while driving others to extinction.

That actually isn't accurate. Diversification is common among animals with small distributions, as competition for the same resources drives different populations to each specify in the exploitation of one resource or another. Darwin's finches on the Galapagos Islands would be the classic example.

The role of space in human development has traditionally been overstated, while the role of time has been understated.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

and once again, humans spent much of ther generational time exclusively in Africa. So I don't see how you could create a human family tree that isn't heavy on exclusively African lines.

It is believed that just before modern humans left Africa over 70.000 years ago, their number was dramatically reduced to as few as 1000 breeding pairs due to a catastrophic event.

That number is much larger than zero, which is how many breeding pairs existed outside Africa at the time.

Originally posted by omshanti

Also before this happened, the major glaciation of 190.000~130.000 years ago had already begun to reduce the savanna range of humans/hominids, which they had roamed for 2 million years as hunter-gatherers.

My understanding is that modern humans probably developed as coast-dwellers, not savanna-dwellers. Hunting is one of those activities that have traditionally been over-emphasized in human development because of the biases of those (mostly men) who have studied it.

Originally posted by omshanti

This had left them more vulnerable to the catastrophe. According to the study of mtDNA, out of the female lines that had survived the catastrophe, only one gives rise to all non-Africans. This is not because only one line left Africa but rather because only one female line survived out of Africa due to genetic drift which has a strong effect in small groups. After that however, the population mushroomed and the female line branched many times to populate the rest of the world.

You're being very selective in the facts you choose to paint the picture of a clean, linear expansion out of Africa that supports your views. The population did not "mushroom" after leaving Africa, the non-African population unerwent several bottlenecks as well. The fact of the matter is, there are more extant mtDNA lines from Africa than from any other continent. I agree that this isn't the whole story, but it puts a hole in your theory that Africans have no more diverse a lineage than anyone else (forgive me if I'm wrong, but that seems to be what you're implying here).

Originally posted by omshanti

Now according to both Y-chromosome and mtDNA, after the initial modern human dispersals out of Africa, each old world and antipodean region became settled, and little inter-regional gene flow happened until the build up to the last glaciation 20.000 years ago. This created certain regional and intercontinental divisions, which incidentally do match the results obtained from craniology.

Again, I’m not sure that’s entirely accurate. For instance: while the earliest out-of-Africa expansion probably went along the southern coasts of Eurasia and followed a fairly traceable route, once humans moved inland (particularly into Central Asia, which was just as flat and just as conducive to fast migration then as it would remain later) expansion became much more convoluted and back-migration much more extensive. It’s possible to create a straightforward narrative of human expansion by picking one theme out of the whole, but that doesn't give you a complete picture.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

When species do branch into sub-species, they're just as likely to do so within a single locality (to fit into different ecological niches) as they are to adapt to new environments. I don't see this ever happening to humans, however, since we're already as adaptable to any situation as we need to be.

As I wrote in my previous post, there certainly have been adaptations/changes, but after the initial settlements/isolations which developed them, modern humans managed to start the inter-regional gene flow by mixing long before any change had a chance to develop from a difference within a species to the characteristic of a whole new species, as it had happened previously between Homo sapiens sapiens and Homo sapiens neanderthalensis.

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

You can always find a single isolated trait or feature which happens to be common in one group, to be present in random individuals in other groups (not only in the sub-Saharan Africans) of humanity as well, however it is the combinations of certain features and traits which make the difference between groups, and make it possible to roughly recognize the origin of a person. The point is that you would never think that a Russian, a Chinese ....etc person is African or vice versa when you see one.


I agree with you that one can identify some traits that tend to have high incidences in particular regions - but there are plenty more traits that vary according to other factors than region.

Those traits and factors can be taken into consideration as well (Would you please mention those traits and factors for me?).

Height, weight, body shape and susceptibility to certain diseases, to name a few. These factors either don't vary by region, or vary regionally at such a local level that it's not reasonable to call them 'racial' characteristics.

Originally posted by omshanti

As I have been writing, my stance is that every element/trait should be considered accordingly rather than one at the total expense of the other. We also have to consider
1) the likelihood and the degree of relatedness of people
2) distinguish between traits that occur in a higher probability within people who are closer to each other in their relatedness, and traits that occur randomly anywhere regardless of the degree of the relatedness of people
3) that people within a region have had much more chance up until recent times to interbreed than people from different regions.
If I put it simply, traits or combination of traits that occur more commonly within families/groups and traits that occur randomly in any family/group should be distinguished.

If people weren't able to interbreed between "regions", then what exactly makes it more likely that they would have been able to interbreed within "regions"? If we take the so-called Caucasian and Negroid races as an example, how is it more likely that interbreeding would happen between people in Spain and India or between people in Sudan and South Africa than between people in Spain and Sudan or India and South Africa?

I would agree that at a local level many populations show small adaptations that were beneficial to them at some point in time, and that point to a peculiar developmental history. But to extrapolate from that and say that huge groups of people, containing almost the full range of human variation and spread across vast and diverse regions, share meaningful traits that differentiate them from other, equally huge and diverse groups of people, is to stretch an idea to its breaking point.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Additionally, there are many, many people in this world that you can't accurately place by "look", so I disagree with classifying people this way.

This is your personal experience/opinion which I respect. However that is not the case for me. I also have to inform you that I wrote 'roughly' rather than 'accurately' which I have highlighted in both our quotes. Biological anthropology is my passion and the discipline I aspire to a career in. I have always enjoyed solving the puzzle of people's backgrounds and my experience as a classical ballet dancer also helps me to pay more attention to more physical details.

I'm interested to know what ballet has to do with this (and to be clear, I don't mean that sarcastically - I'm genuinely interested)

Originally posted by omshanti

From all this, I have developed the eyes for tracing people's ancestry based on looks. The fact that people from the same family are more likely to resemble each other in their externally visible characteristics or looks, shows that looks are a very much valid aspect in tracing the degree of the relatedness of people and subsequently their origin(s).

As you say, we can't realy argue our respective subjective experiences. I will expand, though, on the reasons I believe looks to be a very unreliable way of judging people's ancestries.

I think we have to be vigorous in challenging the way we see things at first glance. Our minds subconsciously strip out a great deal of information when we look at something, so our perception of other people's appearance suffers from a great deal of subconscious weighting and selectivity. We often learn, for whatever reason, to associate particular traits with particular groups. This makes us look for those traits when we expect to find them, and not to look for them when we don't - skewing our perception. This also leads us to take those traits as proof in and of themselves, whether or not they are corroborated by anything else.

For example, I have been informed that you can tell by look who in Skopje is Bulgarian and who is Albanian. I suppose that's possible, but I also doubt this assertion has been verified by asking everyone who 'looks' Bulgarian if they actually are Bulgarian and so on.

This type of perceptual bias is the same that makes people believe that they encounter more red lights when they're having a bad day. They don't actually, but they subconsciously notice and remember things to get angry about when they're feeling angry. When you're expecting to find something, you'll probably find it.

Originally posted by omshanti

Originally posted by Bernard Woolley

Originally posted by omshanti

If Mr.Zahi Hawass' scholarly opinions were same as your opinions, would you still have judged his personality? Based on the impressions you get from Television?


I respect Dr. Hawass' scholarship, but I don't consider him to be above human frailties or above criticism. Incidentally, I happen to almost invariably agree with Richard Dawkins, but that doesn't prevent me from having a sneaking suspicion that the man is an ass.

This means that when you are in agreement with someone's opinion, you do separate your judgement about his/her personality from his/her opinion. However in this thread, you are using your judgement of Mr. Zahi Hawass' personality (which is based on television) to discredit his scholarly opinion, because you do not agree with his opinion. In short, when you agree with the opinion, you separate it from your judgement of the personality, but when you disagree with the opinion you don't separate them.

That's a bold analysis you give of my psychology. 'Personality' isn't really what we're talking about here, but rather the professional tightrope people like Dawkins and Hawass have to walk as both scientists and media characters. Both Hawass and Dawkins try to use the media to get their messages out, and in doing so both take the chance that sometimes they will help themselves and sometimes they will hurt themselves - the nature of popular media inherently precludes scientists speaking and explaining in the same way they would to a scientific audience (particularly when, as in Dr Hawass' case, he happens to be representing one of his country's biggest industries in addition to his scientific field). Dawkins has certainly stepped in it on a number of occasions. I believe that this particular debate may be one of those that are more about public perceptions than science - after all, how much relevance does the reconstruction of King Tut's face, or the migrations of peoples thousands of years before Egyptian civilization existed, really have for the study of Egyptian archaeology? I'd argue that it changes not a thing.



Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 22:55
Akhenaten Who was married to Nefertiti, His mother was from Nubia/Sudan even given the possiblity that egyptians were cinnamon colored, that would make Akhenaten black...seeing as he came from a blue-black woman.  If a black man was to play him in a movie, it would spark international outrage even if it is reality. 


Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: 24-Jan-2009 at 23:05

Zahi Hawass is a known racist and his organization of Scholars is one of the key groups that supported the building of Lake Nuba (a man-made lake stretching from Egypt to Sudan that now HIDES from existence several thousand Nubian pyramids--they're underwater!--and caused the resettlement and "death" of several hundred thousand Nubians from the Nuba Mountains)...let us not forget that his (and the Egyptian council's) main objection was the idea that Nefertiti was Black (which she most definitely was).

And now that over 1,000 Pyramids of Sudan (Sudan having more pyramids than Egypt does) are 200 feet underwater...archeologists cannot dig and discover the proof that the Egyptians were an out-growth of Black Nubian and Cushitic civilizations...which existed BEFORE Egypt.

It's a terrible shame that the original Egyptian people (the Afrangi and other Nilotic Blacks) were conquered by Arab Muslim tribes and wiped out by Cleopatra's "intermarriage law" (forbidding Egyptians to marry Egyptian)...and we should never forget that today's modern day Egyptian society is one so fanatical over ISLAM that they loathe the "Pagan" Blacks who ruled in ancient times...this is a terrible issue for that country

Hawaas's claims (for why he believed the Nefertiti mummy was a "male") were proven by a colleague to be outlandish and untrue almost as soon as he made them...the media chose not to cover that part.



Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 04:11
Originally posted by Melissa

Zahi Hawass is a known racist and his organization of Scholars is one of the key groups that supported the building of Lake Nuba (a man-made lake stretching from Egypt to Sudan that now HIDES from existence several thousand Nubian pyramids--they're underwater!--and caused the resettlement and "death" of several hundred thousand Nubians from the Nuba Mountains)...let us not forget that his (and the Egyptian council's) main objection was the idea that Nefertiti was Black (which she most definitely was). And now that over 1,000 Pyramids of Sudan (Sudan having more pyramids than Egypt does) are 200 feet underwater

Zahi Hawass had a reservoir created (in another country) just to hide the Nubian pyramids? LOL

I'm sure he brought his considerable international influence as a 15 year old to bear on the decision, when Lake Nuba was flooded in the early 60s.



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 04:44
Originally posted by edgewaters

Originally posted by Melissa

Zahi Hawass is a known racist and his organization of Scholars is one of the key groups that supported the building of Lake Nuba (a man-made lake stretching from Egypt to Sudan that now HIDES from existence several thousand Nubian pyramids--they're underwater!--and caused the resettlement and "death" of several hundred thousand Nubians from the Nuba Mountains)...let us not forget that his (and the Egyptian council's) main objection was the idea that Nefertiti was Black (which she most definitely was). And now that over 1,000 Pyramids of Sudan (Sudan having more pyramids than Egypt does) are 200 feet underwater

Zahi Hawass had a reservoir created (in another country) just to hide the Nubian pyramids? LOL

I'm sure he brought his considerable international influence as a 15 year old to bear on the decision, when Lake Nuba was flooded in the early 60s.




Clap

LOL

You beat me to it Embarrassed








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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 05:02
And now that over 1,000 Pyramids of Sudan (Sudan having more pyramids than Egypt does) are 200 feet underwater...archeologists cannot dig and discover the proof that the Egyptians were an out-growth of Black Nubian and Cushitic civilizations...which existed BEFORE Egypt.
Nubian's aren't black.


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Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 06:31
I'll admit "The man made lake" thing i read from an egyptian-american author who's very bitter about that country, because she witnessed babies being drowned in the nile river for being "to dark"

so it may be a conspiracy theory.

BUT on a diferent note, Zahi reputation has taken a serious beating and his "opinons" dont hold much water with me.

the other poster is just to ignorant for me to even reply to.


Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 06:33

Zahi Hawass hates black people so much that he forced one to attend his son's wedding, and put pictures of it up on the Internet:

http://guardians.net/hawass/news/wedding_of_dr_hawass_son.htm - http://guardians.net/hawass/news/wedding_of_dr_hawass_son.htm

They were probably reciting Vogon poetry for the vows and speeches.



Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 07:12
the other poster is just to ignorant for me to even reply to.

I'll assume that's directed at me.
Nubian's aren't black. Unless you can show me evidence of a migration from West Africa at some point, they don't share any physical characteristics with West Africans so I don't see on what basis you are calling them black.
Are you suggesting that just because there skin colour is darker than a European they are black? Or that just because they are from the African continent they are black? If you are that is incredibly uneducated. If a group of Tamils came and settled on Africa somewhere do they become black?

Modern Nubians are called Arabs. Are Arabs black? If Nubians are black, and as we know Nubians are Arabs are Lebanese black? And if Lebanese are black then, based on skin colour, we can conclude that the English are black too. I mean, lets just invent some random labels and apply them to everyone while we're at it.

'Blacks' as used in modern language refer to west africans or people descendent from west africans, like Americans or West Indians. Nubians are not, and never have been related to west africans. It doesn't matter a rat's ass what their skin colour is.


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Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 07:20
What the heck you call that guy black?
He looks like the ancient egyptians protrayed themselves to me,
butterscotch-colored, wide lips, hook nose and all.
looks like he has green eyes as well.
Could he be an egyptian? or in your eyes is he kushaf?


I thought no way in hell 'those people' could be classified as "black"

I'm sure his mother is proud her grandson had returned home with a lovely, blond French wife-- instead of with a dark brown, big-lipped nappyheaded girl from north egypt.

though your right... how 'nice' of him to socialize with the "abeed"



Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2009 at 09:17

Well, maybe. I don't put alot of stock in craniology etc, and I don't really care or pay much attention to the finer points of race science and classification, because it's all malarkey if you ask me. So I suppose I'm not a very good judge, as to who is supposed to belong to which group.

In any case, Hawass has come under fire for a long time now, because he took a no-nonsense approach to ufologists, racial identity politics, etc and made alot of (dismissable) critics among those groups doing so. Although taking that stand made the ufologists and other disreputable fringe groups upset and hysterical, it also earned him alot of respect from academics.



Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 02:23
I haven't a clue what your trying to say...

they don't share any physical characteristics with West Africans

I disagree, Edgewater gets the fainest shade of brown and goes "O Hi blackman"
not because of skin color but because of the physical characteristics are simliar.

Tamils don't remsemble africans in the slightest

If a group of Tamils came and settled on Africa somewhere do they become black?

Are you saying egyptians of old originated outside of africa?

that they have nothing in common genetically with black africans
(despite the large infusion of blood from sudan, where they got their TOP queens from)

But a white arab living in north africa is perfectly normal? you dont think there was a population there before.....like if Paris was a black nation surrround by a sea of white ones i'd assmue there was a population there before.

If Nilotics and like a scot has nothing to do with a swede maybe? then i concur.

Modern Nubians are called Arabs.

Correction..."Modern Nubians" (you mean the people living in egypt)
call themselves arabs,  because they are heavily mixed with arabs and turkish, even though their still dark, they look nothing like their blue-black ancestors.
The Nuba people still alive in sudan  ..uh you know where the pyramids are?

They two are being "eradicated" by people who call themselves "arabs"

'White' has been used in modern language refer to the Romans or people descendent from romans, like italians. Germans are not, and never have been related to the Romans. It doesn't matter a rat's ass what their skin colour is.

Therefor don't ever call a german 'white"

Logic


If your gonna talk an inherit amount of bullshit, then i have the right to do the same
atleast what im saying resembles the truth.

How come this image, which was done in white IVORY hundred years after her death
DESPITE the fact that it looks NOTHING like she's protrayed on ALL other tomb wall images is paraded around...


But this image of  King Tut's grandmother is disallowed?...even on wikpedia

(oh wait, I think i know the answer)








Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 03:57
The problem is you think Africa = Black. The Berber tribes have lived there for a long time, same with the Egyptians. Why do they have to be "black" automatically, or did the Berbers make some grand  "black" kingdom magically disappear into thin air. No one is actually doubting that Egypt was a center where different ethnic populations met within the same single state framework, what most people are doubting is the afrocentric notion that they were automatically black and aware of their "blackness" as it suits the political and ideological notions of today.




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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 04:01
Originally posted by es_bih

No one is actually doubting that Egypt was a center where different ethnic populations met within the same single state framework, what most people are doubting is the afrocentric notion that they were automatically black and aware of their "blackness" as it suits the political and ideological notions of today.
 
But... but..., my self-esteem!
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 04:10
Tongue


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Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 04:21
"Your problem is you think Europe = white"

I am well aware Egypt was a melting pot.

By the way Akolouthos i am not a black american who "talks talks talks" about africa and has only white kids because of self esteem issues. only my grandma is black.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 04:46
Well see if I don't think that Africa = Black then I wouldn't think any other ridiculous label would mean any other ridiculous thing :)

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Posted By: Akolouthos
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 04:57
Originally posted by Melissa

By the way Akolouthos i am not a black american who "talks talks talks" about africa and has only white kids because of self esteem issues. only my grandma is black.
 
I wasn't saying you were, dear, and I do apologize if it came across that way. While I was voicing serious criticism in another thread, here I was simply taking an open opportunity to be droll. If you took offense, I am sorry; it was simply too good an opportunity for satire to pass up. That said, perhaps I should have displayed a bit more maturity and self-restraint, especially if I wasn't prepared to engage in a running dialogue about the topic. I didn't mean to imply any judgement upon your motives, upbringing, etc. Indeed, I was simply trying to get a laugh. You have my apologies, once again, dear. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea culpa.
 
-Akolouthos


Posted By: Melissa
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2009 at 19:50
I didn't mean for this to become a long-winded fight about race.
I just wanted to point out Akhenaten and Tut have black lineage
or be what you'd call black men today.



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Egyptian Hieroglythics in Karnak: "The Blacker she is, the more woman she is. Too much woman blocks the sun."


Posted By: jfsndvs
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 07:06
Originally posted by Melissa

I'll admit "The man made lake" thing i read from an egyptian-american author who's very bitter about that country, because she witnessed babies being drowned in the nile river for being "to dark" so it may be a conspiracy theory.


It wasn't a conspiracy theory (at least the man-made lake part).  I don't know about people drowning, but Lake Nasser was created in southern Egypt as a result of the construction of the Aswan High Dam.  The lake extends into northern Sudan, where it is called Lake Nubia.  Tens, maybe hundreds, of thousands of Nubians in Egypt were displaced and forced to relocate.  It was highly controversial, but I never heard of anyone being drowned. 

This lake covers a vast expanse of land that was once part of Ancient Egypt and Nubia.  Most, if not all, of the temples and monuments were moved to higher ground.  The problem, though, is that the waters submerged ancient towns and artifacts from some of the oldest civilizations in the world.


Posted By: Reginmund
Date Posted: 16-Feb-2009 at 08:55
This reconstruction makes Tutankhamun look like an emo. Big smile

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