And what is that?

Never heard of it--what time period and culture is it from?

A rhomphaia isn't always curved.

Isn't that person in the sig Lu Bu?Who is chinese yes?

 spot on

I did not know that. The only ones I have seen drawins of show it as having a curved, or at least hooked, blade. I've never seen one in person though.

So who exactly is Lu Bu?

I think part of the confusion here is over the term "bill"--like the scythe, the bill is a farming tool.  Bills were originally used to prune trees, but were later used as weapons of war.  Eventually, military bills were produced, with an added topspike to give the weapon thrusting capability.  The weapons I have seen labelled specifically as tirpans in books on Turkish armies are clearly copies of the Italian roncone, which is a type of bill, not a halberd.

Also, several folks here seem to have a penchant for throwing around the term "simple farming tool", "simple farming scythe", etc., as if a military weapon is so much more complex.  For what it's worth, any polearm is, by definition, "simple"--it can range from a plain wooden staff (the simplest of all), to a wooden shaft surmounted by a metal head made for thrusting, cutting, or both.  Either way, there's nothing too complicated about it.

Guys,

Again, the term "bill" likewise normally refers to an agricultural implement--in fact, today that's the only reference to "bill" or "bill-hook" that you're likely to find.

But, hundreds of years ago, bills were also used as weapons of war.

In addition, you may not be considering the fact that meanings of words can change somewhat, over time.

However, if the use of the term tirpan is truly incorrect for referring to a bill, then all I can say is, take it up with David Nicolle, PhD., who originally made the reference in the Osprey title, The Janissaries.

And finally, what is the modern Turkish word for bill or bill-hook?

I don't kow bill in turkish because we have farming lessons in high school.(next year)and david nicolle doesn't soud like a man who would know the definition for t�rpan.But there is one person who could be exact about this.Gazi.He can understand old Turkish.(so so)We'll need his help.

His credentials are pretty well rounded, actually.

He worked in the BBC Arabic Service for 8 years, has an MA from the School of Oriental Studies, and a PhD from Edinburgh University.  He also taught world and Islamic art and architectural history at Yarmuk University in Jordan for several years.

Aside from his numerous Osprey titles (including The Janissaries and Armies of the Ottoman Turks 1300-1774), he is also noted as the author of the excellent Medieval Warfare Sourcebook Vol. I: Warfare in Western Christendom and Medieval Warfare Sourcebook Vol 2: Christian Europe and its Neighbors, as well as The Mongol Warlords.

Everyone,

I just found this nice site by Ihsan Erkoc, who happens to be a moderator here:

http://koz.vianet.ca/da118.htm - http://koz.vianet.ca/da118.htm

Here's a pertinent passage:

 Some of the melee weapons used in the Ottoman army were "Pala" curved swords, "Kilich" broad swords, "Yataghan" short swords, "Gaddara" and "Mech" straight swords, lassoes, maces ("Sheshper" and "Kochbashi" are examples), battle axes ("Balta" and "Teber"), "harba" halberds, pole arms, "Mizrak" spears, hooked spears like "Tirpan" and "Zipkin" and "Hancher" daggers.

So, we have a description of the tirpan as a "hooked spear", which actually corresponds with the photos of tirpans I have seen in Nicolle's books--a military-style bill with a topspike.

I still don't understand how he can speak or read turkish in a way how to know the meaning of an old word

Like tirpan.L�KE T�RPAN.Too complicated?Hooked spears that look like a farming device.

"Too complicated"?

Akyncy, there's no reason to act like a wiseguy.  We've kept this civil thus far.

In any case, Ihsan didn't say "a hooked spear that looked like tirpan"--he simply said "like tirpan".

I suspect that he meant the term "like" in the same way as the expression "such as".  Do you follow me here?

In other words, it's like me saying:

"English polearms LIKE the black bill, brown bill, and Welsh hook".

Which is the same as saying:

"English polearms SUCH AS the black bill, brown bill, and Welsh hook."

http://www.scythesupply.com/outfits.htm">

THIS is a t�rpan.(But there are many differences between todays Turkish and old Ottoman Turkish, in those times it might have been used to describe a polearm.)

Thank you!

I got over exited.Sorry for the immature act

Janissaries equipped as armored shock troops (zirhli nefer).

I'll check it out--thanks.

But that T�rpan is not the t�rpan in the pic I posted its more of  weapon like a halberd.(actually some examples are displayed at the military museum in Istanbul)Most z�rhl� nefers preferred the scimitar and the mace instead of the polearm though

My point all along has been that the tirpan in question is a type of bill (a cut-and-thrust polearm of agricultural origins), which is comparable to a halberd (though technically not the same thing--they differ in blade form).

Zirhli nefers undoubtedly used some form of saber (most likely a kilij) as a sidearm, but polearms were apparently quite common as a main weapon.  This makes sense, since many of their enemies also used polearms, and thus a zirhli nefer armed only with a saber and mace would have been at a distinct range disadvantage.

Look at all the Western European troops who used polearms:

Landsknecht doppelsoldner--these elite landsknechts used halberds, as well as two-handed swords (zweihanders), which were comparable to polearms, due to their length and manner of use.

Swiss reislaufer--most were pike-armed, but a core group retained the use of the halberd (helleparten) for close shock action.

English billman--these tough fellows used their native polearms (the brown bill, the black bill, and the Welsh hook) to good effect during the Wars of the Roses, as well as against the Scots on numerous occasions (Flodden Field, etc).

Spanish alabardero--while the Spanish preferred sword-and-target men (rodeleros; espadachins), they also made use of halberdiers for close combat, guarding officers, etc.  Italian troops, while likewise preferring sword-and-target men (rotularii), also sometimes used halberds and bills of various types.

Halberds and the heavier types of English bill averaged around 7 feet in length, whereas the lighter styles of bill (like the Welsh hook) could be as long as 9 feet.

As I already said, a soldier armed only with a mace or sword would have been at a tremendous disadvantage against a polearm-equipped opponent, so I suspect that the tirpan and other types of polearms were more common amongst the zirhli nefer than you think.

Originally posted by ak�nc� Didn't know that one.Thanks

Anytime, bro! 

The z�rhl� nefers also had bows and curved sabres but nearly all of them had either maces axes or polearms and it also depends on the period.The janissaries of the 14th  and 15th centuries probably did use polearms.