A question regarding what i can post.
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Topic: A question regarding what i can post.
Posted By: aslanlar
Subject: A question regarding what i can post.
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 18:59
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I was wondering if i could start a post on the armenian genocide issue. I know it's black-listed but i would like to make it a poll, and ask there to be no posts on the topic, just voting.
It would be set out like..:
Are you of Turkish descent and support the genocide Are you of Turkish descent and deny the genocide Are you of armenian descent and support the genocide Are you of armenian descent and deny the genocide Are you 'neutral' and support the genocide Are you 'neutral' and deny the genocide As i said, i hope it will only be a poll and there will be no posts. Would that be possible or still not allowed? |
Replies:
Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:10
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_topics.asp?FID=45 - AE Community Information, News and Announcements  section should give you an idea.
Otherwise, check AE's telescreen. ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
Join us. |
Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 20-Jun-2007 at 19:34
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Yes i see it's blacklisted :P That's why i was wondering if i could just have a poll with no posts.
Lucky i ran it by you first :) Anyway, thanks, and sorry for the time. ------------- "The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini |
Posted By: Balaam
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 02:02
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I think it would be much safer to stay away from the topic altogether.... ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 21-Jun-2007 at 09:12
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Since our experience has shown that certain topics have had very explosive tendencies in the past we felt the need to diminish the capacity for ethnic flame wars. Certainly we still see passionate racial discussions on the forum today, however they will not include blacklisted ones, polls or otherwise. ------------- |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 01-Jul-2007 at 23:57
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A poll with no votes? How about a hamburger with no burger, a yacht without a sail,or a dog with no tail? (only put in that bit about the dog because it rhymes.) Serious issues get more serious by being serious about them. What I like about learning to face history is the inner development of being impartial. This means accepting many unjust situations do take place. For the sake of peace in the wider world we cannot do anything about them until the parties in question can agree on a solution.
------------- elenos |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 01:06
After seeing the way EVERY single "discussion" on the Armenian genocide at AE has turned into a flamewar and a waste of forum space, it is quite predictable what will occur in the next topic on the subject. Trust us, AE mods and many members are sick of seeing these topics.
Do you honestly think you can create some kind of international rapprochment on the issue by starting yet another topic at the forum? The only people who would take part are those who would spew their hatred and start another despicable fight. Everyone else has sense enough to stay out of the blacklisted topic.
So why not start a topic on something new and interesting and leave this tired old subject alone? Better yet, how about contributing to a thread that does not have controversial subject matter. Why must every post be some revolutionary idea whose aim is to bring about world peace in one strike?
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2007 at 01:10
Ideally, yes. But hey, I am not a moderator. I don't have to go through their suffering... ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">
Join us. |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2007 at 05:26
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Do you honestly think you can create some kind of international rapprochment on the issue by starting yet another topic at the forum? The only people who would take part are those who would spew their hatred and start another despicable fight. Everyone else has sense enough to stay out of the blacklisted topic.
So true...
------------- |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 05:36
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I think that it's a very poor way of handling similar kind of issues, when instead of having a normal controlled discussion a certain topic is black-listed all together. That's after all what a specific part in the discussion (the denilist in this particular case) strive for. These kind of issues, not only should, but MUST be discussed so the reality and the truth is presented. A well organised and dignified discussions and presentation of facts and sources wouldn't harm anyone (as long as we keep on to presenting facts and arguing for our point of view). I deeply regret that the admin of this forum chose to kill the discussion all together, rather than controlling it and punishing those who violated the forum rules. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 06:22
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armenia, none of us was happy about the topic being blacklisted. It came after hundreds of warning,, dozens of bans, and god only knows how many reminders.
There was no dignified discussion, its seems this is one topic where our honored Turkish and Armenian members can't get along. And it is not in the best interests of the forum to revist this issue at this time.
------------- |
Posted By: Balaam
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 06:25
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armenica it has been tried over and over again but every single discussion had turned into nationalist flame wars, if they were to be taken off the blacklisted topic list then the same thing would happen again. It is just much easier and better for all if they stay there. ------------- |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 06:30
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Well, the topic is being discussed in 3-4 other forums that I'm member of, and even if the subject might tend to overheat from time to time (which is quite natural due to the subject) those discussions have never come to bans or more important black-listing the entire subject. This forum is the only one which I know of that the question of the Armenian Genocide is tabu. I just felt that the decission to ban the topic was unfortunate when there are obvious other examples where civilised people can argue pro and con without calling each other names and ittirating admin to such point that they choose to ban it all together. I wonder: are there any other topics which are banned in this forum or is this specific to the Armenian genocide? ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 08:54
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AE Community Information, News and Announcements
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10675 - Blacklisted Topics ------------- |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 08:58
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Ah... I see. It's rather mostly topics that has to do with Turkey and accusations regarding the treatment of people under Turkish rule plus some other. OK, I get the picture. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 09:09
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No. You don't get the picture! Your subtle intent to insinuate is obvious. Our blacklist came from experience regarding all of those topics. They were created by the previous administration and are maintained by this current one. ------------- |
Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 09:21
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I'd just like to add, there was a typo when i first made this post. My intent was to create a poll with no posts, but only votes. ------------- "The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini |
Posted By: Dolphin
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 09:39
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Aslanlar, you offered two options in terms of the genocide, support or deny..What about 'disagree with?'...Not everyone was going to either say it was a good thing or deny it ever happened. But anyway, a poll without comments is akin to a questionnaire with 'just' as an answer option..It would be a pointless exercise. ------------- |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 10:27
No, I don't agree. Do you imply that this forum has less civilised members who are not able to discuss issues in a dignified matter? What about the other forums that this kind of issues are allowed to be discussed without black-listing the topic?
Generally I can't see why the admin can not block a certain user instead mass-punishing the entire community. That's not the correct way to handle the question and certainly not in this question since silencing the truth about the Armenian genocide is exactly what the denilist part wants to achieve.
As far as it goes for Turkish-specific topics, I think it's hard to help not noticing that half the black-listed topics are Turkey-related. That's just an observation which I think everyone would agree with. As I see it there are no roon in this forum for criticizing anything that could be wrong with Turkey, its past or presence. Isn't this the gist of this black-listing? ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 11:30
The blacklist has nothing to do with Turkish favouritism on this forum, there are various nationalities represented both by its contributing members, and the AE staff that oversees the running, and administration of this forum, and website. It is just that such topics are futile as they always end up unproductive due to the "flame wars" they create. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 11:38
This forum has quite an amalgam of civilized members who can and yearn to discuss many important issues in a civil manner, however, the forum unfortunately is plagued by a pestilence knows as spammers, and trolls whose sole purpose is to either ruin the flow of the discussion, or start flame wars by spewing ethnocentric, and nationalist propaganda, and hate speech that is counterproductive to the purpose of this forum. I have frequented other forums, and it always ends up being the case that most other forums are of a much lower caliber, and of less, and less eloquent clientle than this forum so your attacks on the membership is imbecile.
------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 11:44
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Furthermore, the topics do not only concern Turkey singularly but other countries as well I do not see where your rationale comes for assuming that Turkey can not be criticized, the purpose of the blacklist is that certain events of which there were more than one participator that cause flame-wars are restricted so that the smooth flow of this forum is not interrupted. ------------- |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 14:26
But why then not ban the user(s) instead on banning the issue? I can't quite grasp that solution. Admin could simply warn and then block the users in question instead on apply mass-censorship.
...and I don't intend to prolong this discussion just in order to re-open this topic. That's up to the forum and admin. I simply think that it's pitty that a "history forum" should be forced to close down such a up-to-date question when the EU talks abuot it, US Congress talks about it, the Jewish organisations in US have started to reconsider their stand in regard to this question etc. But if you think that it's nothing but head ache, then it's entirely your call.
Cheers! ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 14:33
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The forum tried banning users on an individual basis before, not just for this topic, and the flame wars it caused, but in general, however, such topics generate an annoying, and infinite number of trolls that simply banning individual users does not do much good. The forum has been active for years it is a learned reaction to what used to be an ongoing problem.
------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 15:10
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Thank you es bih for your perspective on our rationale regarding these topics. As is evident by some of the contrary posts in this thread, political motives are not a reason to unblock a topic. AE may be one of the only sites left that allows ethnicities to participate in discussions on history by actively avoiding traditionally flammable material. This encourages people to discuss interests free of political propaganda as much as possible. That means certain topics are avoided. Not due to loss of words but because these are topics that do not get settled on an internet forum. Maybe not the most popular of decisions, yet one that cuts to the chase and is firmly grounded in experience and common sense. ------------- |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2007 at 17:58
The last time someone like you posted the same question it turned into a flame war while we were trying to explain the reasons.
I also find your insinuations that the underlying cause is pro Turk bias insulting.
------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 01:58
Thank you for proofing me wrong! The note I wrote was not about admin or the forum being bias, but how Turkish-related topics tend to end up being blocked due to insults. That interpreteation is your's only. As goes for the rest I firmly stand by my opinoin that banning a topic, and specially such an issue, is completely wrong way of addressing forum rules. ------------- |
Posted By: Balaam
Date Posted: 12-Sep-2007 at 03:11
Well your more than welcome to continue discussions there but if you feel you want to see discussions about it here you could do a simple search for topics about it.
and to save you time I even did a search for you: http://www.allempires.com/forum/search_results_topics.asp?SearchID=20070912030829&KW=Armenian+Genocide - http://www.allempires.com/forum/search_results_topics.asp?SearchID=20070912030829&KW=Armenian+Genocide ------------- |
Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 12:56
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Supporting just means supporting the claim for genocide. In other words, agreeing it. It's just a simple thing, not meant for people to say it was good or not (whatever the circumstances, the outcome was bad). The purpose was just to get an idea about what people feel on the issue, without starting up 'a flame war'. ------------- "The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 13-Sep-2007 at 19:41
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On some subjects those who write are just like lemmings. You can tell them, If you keep going that way, you will get into flame wars. No we won't! Yes you will! And it starts all over again. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: Aster Thrax Eupator
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2007 at 07:07
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I agree - let's just stay away from it. That's what I do, because every time I even get into a non-blacklisted topic about Turkish-related topics, it becomes swamped with Turanists and suchlike. ------------- |
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 14:13
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I'm a little puzzled as to why 'immigration into the USA' is blacklisted. I don't see how US history can really be properly covered without intrducing immigration. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 14:25
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That was decided over one year ago. The debates over Mexican/American walls and congress' wrangling over illegal immigrants caused an uproar among members here. Since this issue is mostly specific to that I will rewrite the blacklist with a qualifier. Otherwise, immigration as a whole to the US will, most likely, not create too much flaming amoung members. ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 17:45
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Seko, I just have a simple inquiry about this whole thing. I don't
care if we can talk about the topic or not on the forum (although I'm
not in favor of a blacklist), as it gets very redundant disproving the
same lies and propaganda over and over. I think any reasonable person
who has researched the topic on their own will see what really
happened. My main concern is why, on the blacklist, Armenian Genocide has quotations around it? That is a very subtle way of getting a particular message across. I highly doubt anyone would write Jewish Holocaust in quotes without being branded as a racist (which probably wouldn't be far from the truth). And its not like its a mistake, as none of the other blacklisted topics have quotations around them. I just want to know why there are quotes around an event which was confirmed to have happened by, among thousands of other scholars, the man who invented the term genocide, Dr. Raphael Lemkin. Putting quotes around the name of the event, as well as banning discussion on the topic (not that I care to rehash the discussion) gives the idea to a neutral, not-in-the-know individual that there seems to be two sides to the event in question, and that it might not be anything more than a premature accusation, which is completely the opposite of what the majority of historians around the world say. This includes the man who invented the concept of genocide, as well as the International Association of Genocide Scholars, as well as many other internationally-renown institutions. It would be no different if we banned discussion of the Jewish Holocaust, and made a blacklist where the event was written in quotes, all because a few holocaust deniers cannot control their fingers. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 18:09
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A.S., the quotations are there as a middle ground in this debate. Both the term genocide and indications of it being alleged are represented in "Armenian Genocide". This way both sides of the arguement know that the debate is over legitimacy. Your arguement is represented in your post. Now a counter arguement could very well be represented from someone else's post. Then this discussion would be spiraling onward, which at the end of the day, will be a long winded thread that proves both sides had alot to say. Don't we already know this? Is this really news at All Empires or do we need more debates inorder to pound it into eachothers' heads that both sides will not agree in this type of format? ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 20:02
Yes, but the counter-arguments are not based on anything that has been agreed upon by academia, in fact they say the complete opposite of what has been agreed upon by every major academic circle. Thats my whole point. Just because someone presents a view that is the complete opposite of what every historical circle says doesn't mean that it has to be represented as a possible fact. As I said, you don't see the viewpoint of Jewish Holocaust deniers represented on a history website by putting the name of the event in quotations, so how is this any different?
Its not being "alleged" by anybody. The man who invented the term genocide said that what happened to the Armenians was a fundamental example of genocide. If you do not accept his basic examples of genocide, then by default, you are denying his definition of genocide, which is adopted by every single institution that has to do with international law, including the United Nations. By this rationale, we can openly question whether the Jewish Holocaust took place, contrary to what every academic institutions says, all because some loud neo-Nazis and political opportunists have a different point of view from the world. Do you see the problem here? ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 21:10
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Looks like you're itchin to have an arguement right here and now A.S. Not only are you questioning the veracity of our rules regarding blacklisted topics but you're actually getting yourself involved in the blacklisted discussion in the process of making your arguement. I assume you can try to continue as you are doing knowing fully well that our policies will not change and I can remind you that this topic is not for discussion. Since you would be responsible for the consequences in continuing to challenge the blacklist policy then I would have to be responsible to enforce our policy. It's your choice. ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 21:43
Jesus!
I was thinking in opening a thread to discuss if walls are really practical or not to prevent migrations. Remember that the Chinese Wall, the Adrian Wall, the Berlin Wall and many other barriers simply didn't work. So, if I include the Jesuralem and the Tortilla walls in there the topic will be banned?
I hope not.
Pinguin
|
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:00
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If we are to stay "on topic" and discuss history then I hope so. ------------- elenos |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:01
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No, the topic would be closed if you were to solely discuss the "Tortilla" walls.
Folks is this really news to some of you long time members? I don't think so. Shall we go back to the days of flame wars where the same old arguements, amidst a few new ones, flourish in AE once again? If that is a majority opinion then I am all ears. I would then take each blacklisted title and have the staff vote on either maintaining or removing the blacklist. I would not do this for the sake of a few but with the consent of most AE members that wish to have this policy re-evaluated. ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:07
Seko, I have no intention of convincing you to take anything off the blacklist, as I already said I don't care whether we can discuss this issue or not on these forums. My only point of contention is the use of quotations to refer to the event, which is unjustified for the reasons that I gave. I'll say it again, you don't see the viewpoint of Jewish Holocaust deniers represented on a history website by putting the name of the event in quotations, so how is this any different? We might as well put Jewish Holocaust in quotes, just because there is a minority of people who believe it didn't happen. This is the root of what I'm trying to tell you. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: elenos
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:16
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I like having rules where arguments can be ended quickly. Nobody learns anything from topics that cause abuse rather than sharing.
------------- elenos |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 21-Sep-2007 at 22:20
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Thanks for the clarification ArmenianSurvival. I knew what you meant but you kept insisting that this is an agreed upon policy (armenian genocide), though it is sometimes debated in international circles by historians and lobbied by politicians, it is in quotes becasue it has been argueably denied by those who's ancestors are being accused. They were tragic events by which the policy of 'genocide' is either refuted or accepted. Since these discussions have occurred many times in AE and ended up in disagreements from both sides nothing gets resolved. I know you are sensitve to this topic as are many other members of various stripes. I cannot take it upon myself to disavow one arguement for the sake of another.
Even though, earlier in this thread, a point was raised about Immigration in the USA I did see that it was not clarified properly. That is why I revised the wording to make it as specific as possible and still allow discussions not relating to the problematic history we have had pertaining to that topic. Yet in my haste I may still be wrong by rewording it to Illegal Immigration into the USA (conflicts over Mexican/American relations). If a good counter arguement is raised in by the staff over this change then I would take that into consideration and possibly revert to the more general and strict measure of the original. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2007 at 17:29
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A.S. This is your second identical thread. The first one was moved to the archives (this one is hidden).
The blacklist has not been open to further debate. I reminded you once that you will be paying the consequences for insisting that we discuss the blacklist and for trying to make a case by discussing the blacklisted subject in the process. Your next attempt will result in a warning! ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2007 at 18:31
Oh okay, I was wondering why my post disappeared. No one said anything so I didn't know.
My only concern was the use of quotes to refer to a specific item on the blacklist, not the blacklist itself, nor the topic itself. Unfortunately it was impossible for me to explain my case without referring to the topic, since your justification for putting it in quotes is directly related to the topic as well. I don't have a bone to pick with you or anything like that, Seko. My only point is that you should use the same terminology that the majority of international organizations and historians use (whatever that terminology might be). After all, this is a history website. That is all from my end. Until next time 
------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 03:17
??! Sorry, but with all do respect, since when did admin become arbitrary judge in similar historic discussions? If admin do not poses the historical facts or knowledge in the issue than I can't see how he/she can even interfer.
Personally, I think that if you're professional about it and sincere in the matter, you should at least listen to the arguments put forward, examine them and build your own opinion about the question. That's what academic research and dicussions is about, right?
I have said it before and I repeat it again: this forum is taking the easy way out, yielding to the terrorising of the Turkish individuals who's sole purpose is to put a stop for similar discussions which risk to bring the truth to persons (such as yourself) who are unaware about the details and the facts around the Armenian Question.
Admin should keep the forum clean of individuals who mess up the place, not censorship of the discussed subjects. The Turksih state has the article 301 for silencing this kind of questions and your decision to shut this discussion up is not far away from that. ------------- |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:16
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Wow! Your hostility knows know bounds armenica. You prejudge me by assuming I do not posess enough facts about this issue. You question my integrity as an admin. You then ask me to listen to your arguement when historically AE has had numerous threads on this issue in the past. That is not our fault for coming late to the party. You also label our Turkish members as using 'terrorising' methods. Then you go onto more of your poor anti-Turkish rhetoric as if that will help your case. Most of all you are engaging in blacklisted discussions while trying to make your arguement. Being that their are numerous violations here you are officially warned.
If anyone else cares to join in on this discussion and insuuate groundless accusations based on wishful thinking then feel free to face the consequences. ------------- |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:24
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Well, democracy is good thing, but autocracy is even better as long as you sit on the high end of the power. I have now been "officially warned for violating the power of the staff"!!!
Nice. Thanks again to Seko for proofing my point. You couldn't have done it better. Shut down everyone and evrything that wishes to talk about the Armenian genocide and have the nerves to claim that this forum is not biased.
One more thing since this might as well be the last thing I write before the regime executes me: I wasn't writing anything anyhow, so please refresh my memory: you warn me for what?
It's allways nice when people do your work and proof the very thing that you're trying to stipulate. You really should reconsider the judgement and the role of the admin personal in this forum...
PS. I still stand by my view and it will take much much more than a warning and threathening to suspend me in aforum to make me forget about my principles and most important of all defending the truth. ------------- |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:38
I was in all those threads. Where were you?! And if they're around then you can take a look and see my posts and if you find one insulting then I'll yield.
Secondly, there is nothing "anti-Turkish" in my posts other then what I see going on here. When you observe that 5-6 of 10 blacklisted threads have something to do with Turkey, then my assumption is based on observation, not "groundless" accusation.
Anf finally, next time you warn someone, make sure they have something to lose. If this is the way you conduct in this forum, then there is no space for reasoning here. For your own sake I hope that there are other admins who can (or dare) to question this kind of dictatorship and censorship. ------------- |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 12:47
Well, as you well know, the Armenian genocide has been blacklisted for a reason here at AE. No one can ever talk in a civilized manner about it. If someone starts a civilized discussion, it always degenerates from there into a nasty flamewar.
The same thing happens every single time the topic is brougt up. No one is ever going to be convinced that the other side is right. They do not care; all they care about is asserting their point over the other person's point. It is not even a matter of having an honest discussion with the hope of someone eventually changing their mind because good evidence was provided.
This is not to belittle the Armenian genocide by any means. However, the "discussions" on the topic have become so absurd and predictable that it has become a parody of itself. Sensible people at AE just roll their eyes, sigh, and move on to a more interesting topic. Can you take part in discussions that that do not have to do with Armenia or the genocide? If you cannot or will not, I think a certain agenda has been revealed other than discussing history for the purpose of enjoying history. Do yourself and the serious topic of genocide a favor and let it be for now. ------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: armenica
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 13:04
Much obliged for the explanation, eventhough that I knew a better portion of it already. But please do pay attention to what I have written in all my posts in this thread: I DO know and understand the extra load for admin when this kind of issues are discussed (and derailed). But at the same time I feel that blacklisting the trouble makers is the answer not mass punishing all and blacklisting the thread, specially something as important as the Armenian Genocide.
As for the rest, I have been working with the Armenian history since 1998, reading about the Armenian history in particular but also the history of region i.e. Persia, Middle East, Balkans, Asia Minor, Caucasus, the Ottoman Empire and so on. Now I'm studying on university for my M.Sc. in history and natyrally find the subject interesting, but nevertheless my "expertise" (I'm in no way expert compared to the real ones) is about the Armenian history and the Armenian Genocide in particular. Of that simple reason I find this topic closest to my heart and those small amounts of time beside work and study that I find I put in these discussion (presenting facts and arguments).
Well, that's quite the whole thing. I reacted upon the explanation about why such a topic is banned from this forum. And since I know for fact (from our own university library) that Turkish students destroy all books and discussion regrading the Armenian genocide, this banning seemed exactly the same only this time it's in cyber space.
You must not allow the discussion about the Armenian Genocide just die becuase there are some rotten eggs who terrorise the ones who sincerely want to discuss the matter in a civilised manner. I for one, don't think that it's a dignified way to honor the memory of all men, women and children who died in those massacres. It's history. It's documented and it sure belongs in this forum.
Cheers,
Vahagn Avedian
Chief editor of Armenica.org ------------- |
Posted By: Byzantine Emperor
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 13:20
This good and I am glad that you have such a heart for the topic. However, as I said above, nothing will not convince the other side of your point. The types who come into Armenian genocide threads and turn it into a flamewar do not care about facts. All they care about is trumpeting there opinion, whether it be denying the event took place or something else, over that of everyone else. Nothing constructive ever happens and your good intentions are wasted on deaf ears or blind eyes.
Are there other topics apart from Armenia and genocide that you are interested in? As for me, I'd be glad to have you take part in an objective manner in my Byzantine or Ottoman topics. I have started a few topics on the Ottoman Turks and they have never degenerated into flamewars or been closed by the moderators. People might have come in and posted something witty for the sake of starting a fight, but everyone else usually ignores them and they go away.
Now it is possible that these types ignore my threads because they cannot figure out a way to start a fight that deals with premodern Turkey or the Balkans. In other words, they are trolls who sit there and look for keywords on the search engine that have to do with Turks or the genocide and then post one witty thing in each hoping to start a fight. But, as you have seen, they are usually caught and either warned or banned.
Blacklisting the topic does not make the issue die. On the contrary, it prevents historical quacks and idiots from spreading their filth over the issue any further, and prevents people like yourself who have the issue close to your heart from being flamed and provoked at AE.
------------- http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=12713 - Late Byzantine Military http://www.allempires.net/forum_posts.asp?TID=17337 - Ottoman perceptions of the Americas |
Posted By: Seko
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 13:31
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Why is it that those who insist on having us change our rules are always pushing for their own agenda? Did you once see me break our rules in this discussion? Did I insinuate anything against Armenian members like you, armenica, unfavorably have done against Turks? A few pages ago you were given the staff's line of reasoning. Just recently you were formally warned. Now you have ignored that and insist that we allow this blacklisted discussion to continue. You have violated the CoC by spreading your politics in the process. I have been patient with your insults against our policies and me. Instead of leaving your disgruntled voice regarding the blacklist you have somehow managed to acuse me directly in your childish antics. I am the one upholding the CoC where you are simply violating it. With all do respect to your background in academia and your personal history that you so willlingly share here, this is not a thread to discuss your grievance about your people or any about our staff (me included). Since you continued your barrage of accusations, then unfortunately, it has led to your eventual ban from this forum. ------------- |
Posted By: ArmenianSurvival
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2007 at 16:49
This is not the impression one gets when one looks at the blacklist and sees the name of the event in quotes, which to any reasonable person, is just a way of implying that it didn't really happen, or might not have happened. We need to look at what terminology the majority of historians and international institutions use to refer to this event, and use that term on the blacklist. This is a history website. Putting quotes around it can be described in many negative ways, the least negative of which is that its grossly inaccurate (at least according to the world of historians and scholars, which is the only thing that should carry any weight in a history forum). I said in my previous post that I will say no more in this thread, but I was not banking on my comments being ignored. But the moderators' job is not an easy one, and I will continue to stay optimistic that my specific points will be answered by our hard-working moderating staff. ------------- Mass Murderers Agree: Gun Control Works! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Resistance Քիչ ենք բայց Հայ ենք։ |
Posted By: aslanlar
Date Posted: 24-Sep-2007 at 15:24
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People against the genocide would like it to be renamed 'the false armenian genocide' or something along the lines of that. Let's just leave it as it is and stop arguing as it clearly isn't going to change. Should we just close this thread? ------------- "The league is alright when sparrows dispute but it can do little when eagles argue" -Mussolini |