Does "King Arthur" really EXIST??
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Medieval Europe
Forum Discription: The Middle Ages: AD 500-1500
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=20241
Printed Date: 23-May-2024 at 02:06
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Topic: Does "King Arthur" really EXIST??
Posted By: Balain d Ibelin
Subject: Does "King Arthur" really EXIST??
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 04:38
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King Arthur was a legendaric figure that united the Britons to fought the Saxons. His story was written by a French monk at about 1180-s. And His real battle that was recorded was Battle of Mons Badonicus (Baden Hills).
In my opinion, King Arthur and his Knights and their finding of Holy Grail was real, but I don't believed Camelot and Amelot existed.
Please, not only by your opinion, but also from knowledge, answer this Question. ------------- "Good quality will be known among your enemies, before you ever met them my friend"Trobadourre de Crusadier Crux |
Replies:
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 06:24
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I posted what I know already once here:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18893&KW=arthur - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18893&KW=arthur
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
so much for the grail.... 
that is defenately later...
Posted By: gcle2003
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 10:50
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Same goes for me. I think my posts are in the same thread.
I never came across anyone before who thought the story of the Holy Grail was real.
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Posted By: edgewaters
Date Posted: 13-Jun-2007 at 12:41
In all likelihood, the story of King Arthur is not about a single individual or a single time period but is a legend built by accretion - the story is woven out of different episodes. Camelot, for instance, has some basis at least linguistically. The center of power in pre-Roman Britain was a tribal city and stronghold featuring the only mint in Britain, known in Latin as "Camulodunum" - the city of Camulod, the Briton's god of war. So certainly that name harks back to that place, even though it is certain no post-Roman war leader could have had anything to do with the place, as it was razed to the ground during the Boudiccan revolt. Many other elements of the story apparently date back to a pre-Roman era, but some obviously do not. If you are familiar with local folk legends in England surrounding various places (for example, the Devil's Chair in the Stipperstones) you will know that folk myths in England have tended to adapt with the times by mixing in newer and more contemporary elements to suit the new zeitgeist. Most of them are accretions built over the ages, and likely the King Arthur story is one of these. The challenge of the King Arthur story is determining which elements are from which time period, and how, why and when pre-Roman elements were attached to a post-Roman individual. |
Posted By: Efraz
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 00:46
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First mentioned in Nennius's "History of Britain" as a Roman cavalry commander. Well most about the medieval tale and Celtic connections are already mentioned but I'd like to point another fact. If you look at Arthur as a figure from today you'll see a complex profile A Christian but has connections with Celtic pagan heritage A Roman but at the same time British. A savior, liberator (of britain against Saxons) A monarch resembling a tolerant figure to freedom for love even an illegitimate one(Guinivere and Lancelot issue he is much like Priam of Troy concerning that) He was both a cavalier and an apprentice to a wizard. A chosen one yet a doomed, cursed person committed incest As to the question I believe there was a man that first shaped the mythos but that man has been molded into many shapes and have inherited too much. Some believe that even Charlemagne's existence has changed his cycle. The last royal christian conquerer image is said to be borrowed from him. He evolved through the centuries and even in the last Hollywood film portrayed as a Sarmatian Horseman. Why not? His evolution has continued with every literary work. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 05:51
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^ the first three profiles you mention can all be true at the same time, with different aspects being focused on depending on the source.
Being british and not germanic would make you 'celtic'*, probably romanised to some degree with a pagan background. Best place to look is the Welsh stories first. i would think other localised myths have come up from this and added layers of christianity > medival morality later on - which may explain the later two profiles.
*justy using the term loosely Paul
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 13-May-2008 at 20:54
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No he doesn't...that's for sure. He's been dead for a long long time. Sry I couldn't resist:D:D |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Jun-2008 at 09:22
He is not celtic, he is very naught boy.
I really really couldnt resist. sorry
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Posted By: Dynbertawe
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 11:11
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But what if he was an original Brit and not a Celt? ------------- Gorau arf, arf dysg. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 13:43
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http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jshoaf/arthurmalcor.html - http://www.clas.ufl.edu/users/jshoaf/arthurmalcor.html
The Alano-Sarmatian hypothesis proposes, more or less, that the original, historical Arthur was a Roman military leader named Lucius Artorius Castus, who served as commander of a group of Sarmatian warriors (from what is now Iran and Russia) for two years in Britain, around 182. Castus probably led this group in battle several times, though he left Britain for other commands and eventually died in Dalmatia. The theory proposes that the Sarmatians in Britain continued to live there, possibly employed by the Roman military, possibly maintaining their nomadic ways and their own language, but at any rate telling their traditional stories with a new hero, Castus, called by them Artorius. ------------- 
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 15:40
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Scythian/Sarmatian "Artor" (Persian "Arta") meant "Just" and could be used as a prefix for Iranian personal names, in Armenian there is "Ardar", for example "Ardar Davit" (David the Just) -> http://www.armeniapedia.org/index.php?title=Rediscovering_Armenia_Guidebook-_Armavir_Marz - source , as you read http://www.commercemarketplace.com/home/naasr/NAASR_2003_3.htm - here : "The Armenians use a cognate term in the word ardar, meaning "just;" and a host of Iranian names in Armenian, Artavan, Artavazd, etc., include the term." -------------
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Posted By: Dynbertawe
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 16:10
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In Welsh, the word `arth` means bear ------------- Gorau arf, arf dysg. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 16:27
"Bear" is the name of an animal not humans!  Seriously, if it was used as a personal name then there should be some other similar Welsh names, would you please some of them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asha - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asha
Arta- (Mid. Iranian ard-), representing either the Av. divinity Aša or the principle aša, occurs frequently as an element in Iranian personal names." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asha#cite_note-Boyce_1987_390-13 - [14] Hellenized/Latinized names include:
Other names include:
Middle Iranian ard- is also suggested to be the root of names of the current day Iranian cities of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardabil - Ardabil , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardekan - Ardekan , http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ardehal&action=edit&redlink=1 - Ardehal and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardestan - Ardestan . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asha#cite_note-34 - [35] -------------
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 16:31
Well, not at all. Never heard of the Scandinavian name Bjorn? Or berserkar? Further: Arcadius, Avonaco, Ber, Bernard, Dov, Nanuk, Orsino, Otso, Ursus, Ursula, Arcadia....and countless other names meaning bear or derived from bear. Human names are derived from anything you could think of, including trees, rocks, animals, qualities and so on. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 16:53
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I agree, names of animals are used as Human names in Persian too, for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boar : The famous Sassanid spahbod, Shahrbaraz, who conquered Egypt and the Levant, had his name derived Shahr(city) + Baraz(boar like/brave) meaning "Boar of the City". It is interesting to read: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=boar&searchmode=none - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=boar&searchmode=none Boar: "O.E. bar, from W.Gmc. *bairaz, of unknown origin with no cognates outside W.Gmc." Anyway I asked that you mention some other similar Welsh names. -------------
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Posted By: Tyranos
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 17:09
I guess everyone was or is iranian somehow. Lucius Artorius Castus is the only known human being with the name in real life and was actually known to be in Britain as a Dux in fact. Comes from the gens Artoria, which meant "plowman". His ancestry is pure Campanian. With the intermingling of Italics and Britons in Britain with the advent of the Roman Empire--so it isnt surprising the lanugages wouldve mingled and fused together to create a mytholigical figure. Latin: aro : to plow. http://img155.imageshack.us/img155/6766/romanofficermarbledz5.jpg">
 http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/6766/ospreytheromanarmyfromhsp6.jpg">
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 18:10
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Scythian Alan -> Persian Airan(Iran) [l->r in Iranian language] Therefore Scythian Plow is changed to Old Persian Prow which means: to plow, according to Oxford Dictionary:
1 turn up (earth) with a plough, clear snow from (a road) using a snowplough.
2 (of a ship or boat) travel through (an area of water). In modern Persian we have "Paro" and "Parudan": http://books.google.com/books?id=tkuV1Rtn5lQC&pg=PA230&lpg=PA230&dq=parudan+persian&source=web&ots=AbAroq135G&sig=hft-ws3fHPKJuJ6lX1HEDSAKZY4&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result - A Comprehensive Persian-English Dictionary Paro: A shovel, an oar, to row, to travel by a boat About English Plow: http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=plow - http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=plow 
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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 18:58
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Please Cyrus, some Arthurs: Arthrwys of Glywysing
Arthuis of Elmet Arthuis of Ebrauc Arthwyr of Dyfed |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 19:30
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What do these names mean? They could be just some different form of Arthur/Artorius. -------------
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Posted By: beorna
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 19:48
I just answered your question!
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 20:36
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There were also some great Persian kings with the name of "Bear", for example we have Arsames, the grandfather of Darius the Great, but it derives from Old Persian "Arsa", Avestan "Arsha" not "Arth". http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=2261 - http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?root=config&morpho=0&basename=%5Cdata%5Cie%5Cpiet&first=2261 Proto-IE: *rtk'- <PIH *H->
Nostratic etymology: http://starling.rinet.ru/cgi-bin/response.cgi?single=1&basename=/data/nostr/nostret&text_number=+683&root=config"> 
Meaning: bear
Hittite: hartagga- c. 'ein Raubtier' (Tischler 188-189, 312)
Old Indian: ŕkṣa- m. `bear'; ŕkṣī f. `female bear'
Avestan: arša- 'Bär'
Other Iranian: NPers xirs, Osset ars 'Bär'
Armenian: arǯ `Bär'
Old Greek: árkto-s f. (/m.) `Bär, Bärin'
Latin: ursus, gen. -ī m. `Bär'; ursa f. `Bärin; als Sternbild des grossen und des kleinen Bären'
Celtic: *arto- > Gaul Deae Artioni; MIr art; Cymr arth `Bär'
Russ. meaning: зверек (медведь)-------------
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 20:43
| Cyrus, if you're..forbid that thought..trying to prove that Germans are Iranians, I think it would be more appropriate to tempt the fate in 'Saxon and Scythian' or 'Is Germanic subgroup of Iranian?'...I'm still waiting for your answer there. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 20:45
Wait a minute...Scythian isn't Iranian language?? We could do with a little reference for the Scythian 'plow', and Persian 'prow'. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 21:00
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As you read in the link that I gave about Iranian Arta/Artor and Armenian Arda, Old Persian "Arta" originaly meant "Order" (Oxfor Dictionary -> Order: a state in which the laws and rules regulating public behaviour are observed.), English "Order" is said to be a loan word from Latin, what could be the original English/Germanic word? From Grimm's law (also known as the First Germanic Sound Shift):
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Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 21:52
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Why is this thread turning to another glossological pissing contest? You guys make us Balkans proud. All the similarities between Persian and European languagesare due to the fact that Greek and Latin have the same roots with Persian (Indo-Europeans ring a bell) and those two (especially Latin) influenced greatly French which in turn influenced German and English. |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 22:14
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German is a separate branch of Indo-European. It does not derive from French. Almost all French influence on German dates to post-medieval times, mainly though the Hugenots. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Vorian
Date Posted: 02-Jul-2008 at 22:28
| You get my point. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 08:29
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There is a possibility that "Arthur" was just the Welsh name of Persian "Baraz" (the famous Sassanid spahbod) or Sarmatian "Batraz", this word could mean both "Boar" and "Bear" in the Iranian languages. More info about Sarmatian Batraz: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batraz - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Batraz Batraz was the leader and greatest http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warrior - warrior of the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mythology - mythical super-human race, the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nart_saga - Narts . The Narts were the central figures of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatian - Sarmatian http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Folklore - folklore . The character of Batraz may be connected to King Arthur.
[ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batraz&action=edit§ion=1 - edit ] The NartsThe mother of the Narts was Satana who was renowned for her wisdom. The principal enemies of the Narts were the Terks or Turks but they also fought the vaigs, man eating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre - ogres , and would ultimately do battle with heaven itself. Nart heroes include Soslan, Atsamaz, Hamytz and Uryzmag. The Narts had a great hall called Nykhas where they would feast and drink. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batraz&action=edit§ion=2 - edit ] The life of BatrazThe Sarmatians shared an almost http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirituality - spiritual connection with their weapons, and so the life of Batraz revolves around his magic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sword - sword . While a young man, Batraz pulls his sword from the roots of a tree. This could be connected to the fact that Sarmatians were buried with their swords embedded in the earth or stone at the heads of their graves. Also the sword of Batraz plays an important part of his death, when he is fatally wounded by his archenemy, Sainag-Alder. Legend has it that Batraz tells his friend to throw his sword into the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean - ocean . The warrior is reluctant at first, not only because of the quality of the sword but because of the spiritual connection it had with Batraz. But in the end the warrior did throw the sword and it was caught by a water goddess. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Batraz&action=edit§ion=3 - edit ] Concerning Batraz and King ArthurIt was recently noticed that Batraz and the legendary http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur - King Arthur share many similarities. Batraz has a magical sword that is cast into the ocean (probably the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea - Black Sea ) as he dies; in Arthurian myth, as Arthur is dying from the wounds his archenemy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mordred - Mordred has inflicted on him, he calls his knight http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedivere - Bedivere to throw his sword http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excalibur - Excalibur into a lake, where it was caught by the Lady of the Lake. It has been suggested that Arthur was based on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucius_Artorius_Castus - Lucius Artorius Castus , a Roman general who led an elite cavalry unit in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Britain - Britain . The cavalry was made up of heavy Sarmatian horsemen. Artorius (a possible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin - Latin origin of the name Arthur) may have contributed to the character. Although Artorius left Britain his retired Asian knights stayed and possibly spread the stories of Batraz to the Celto-Roman population. -------------
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Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 08:44
It is interesting to read it: http://www.kingarthurbanner.com/artifacts.htm#saxonthunderer - http://www.kingarthurbanner.com/artifacts.htm#saxonthunderer
Saxon Ring Of Arthur As The Scythian Navigator, Thunderer, and War god - Bear Artifact Group 2
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 09:48
Cyrus, once again. Order entered English in high middle ages. You can't find the original Germanic word by simply subject it to Grimm's law! How can you eve think so? Come on.  |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 10:10
| Why in all the threads you enter do you pick some nation and are trying to prove they have Scythian/Iranian/Persian origin?? It's highly suspicious eve at this level. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 10:49
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I just talk about the relations between Germanic and Iranian peoples, is it Forbidden? Is it just me who connect King Arthur with Sarmatians? There are hundreds articles and books written about it, for example read this one: http://www.jstor.org/pss/1259982 - http://www.jstor.org/pss/1259982 
The problem is that you just don't want to believe the facts! -------------
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 10:54
| But it is just you who say Germanics are descendants of Iranians, Slavs are descendants of Iranians, Saxons only, Dutch only, English only...and it changes. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 10:56
And don't rely on sources...we've been through this - we all know that it's you who don't want to believe facts and refuse to rely on sources unless it adds to your agenda. I'm still waiting in Ir-Ger thread for your answers....facts & sources...come on, show me |
Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 10:59
You call myths, folklore and traditions "facts"? Just for the record, the Britons weren't Germanic Cyrus. |
Posted By: Joinville
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 13:29
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It's overwhelmingly possible that there never was an historical "king Arthur".
The hypothesis based on an ortographic similarity between "Arthur" and a Roman cavalry commander known to have served in Britian is curious, but it's 1) entirely impossible to prove he had anything to do with the Arthur figure, and 2) it's extremely unlikely he did. Maybe there was another Roman commander, or a dozen, with a curious name somewhat like "Arthur" who did, but not this guy? But we'll never know, the link is enirtely conjectural. What's known is that there is no mention of Arthur in Welsh accounts before Nennius, 9th c., putting him a couple of centuries before that time. And then Arthur springs fully formed into human immagination in the 12 th. through the pen of the Breton monk (Britanny colonised from Wales) Gerald of Monmouth, as the champion of the Brython/Welsh people and the vanquisher of the bloody English/Saxons. Which is a nice illustration of the political antagonism between the Welsh principalities and the encroaching might of England. Retrospectively the non-mention of Arthur in the chronicles of Gildas, supposedly contemporary with Arthur and writer of the history of the Brythons/Welsh was explained by the invention of a bit of legend specifically about Gildas, according to which he decided to excise Arthur from history for actions against Gildas own familily. In reality there's nothing to indicate Arthur was anything but a wishfulfilment fantasy among a people hard pressed in a military and political conflict with a more powerful neighbour. It was the situation in Nennius time, and it's bleeding obvious in Geoffry of Monmouths chronicle. Whatever status of that Roman cavalry officer, apart from the name and the pofession perhaps, there's nothing linking him with the Arthur character of the Welsh and Breton sources. As for the stories, the cycles of legends surrounding Arthur, the Welsh ones seem ancient, but the sources available can't in fact be dated earlier than the chroniclers. The spread of the Arthurian mythology over Europe on the other hand didn't occure through Wales, but through Britanny in France. The theme was first picked up from Breton sources in the 1180's at the provinsial court in the county of Champagne, and the Arthur stories became a runaway success. A couple of decades into the 13th c. a trobadour named Allain of Lille even had the gall to complain about the fact that all everyone ever wanted to hear was stories about Arthur and his ruddy knights. Beginning in 1180 when Chrêtien de Troyes, in Champagne, had composed the (unfinished) "Li Conte de Graal" there had beeen an explosion of Arthurian and Grail stories, not just about Arthur but about his knights as well ("Perlesvaus"/Percival, "Le Chevalier de la Charette", "Yvain" etc.) The most accomplished Grail-story probably being that of the Thuringian trobadour, in Germany, Wolfram von Eschenbach, his "Parzifal" from the 1210's. Those are the oldest dated Grail and Arthur stories. There are some indicators the stories might have been around before that, like a relief in souther Italy apparently depicting the abduction of Guinevere from something like 1140. ------------- One must not insult the future. |
Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 14:34
No, you're not the first. But I think you're the first here to connect him with any Germanic people. I don't see anything that Arthur has to do with Germanic-Iranian relations, really. Once again, Celts are not Germanic - they're even composed of totally different letters. |
Posted By: Cyrus Shahmiri
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 14:36
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I'm sure no one read "Saxon Ring Of Arthur As The Scythian Navigator, Thunderer, and War god ", it says the real King Arthur could be a Welsh King named Cuneglasus. -------------
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Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 14:40
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 15:06
I'm not denying that - a Welsh king, why not? |
Posted By: ulrich von hutten
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 16:44
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Whether he really still exists ?
Last week i saw a guy who was carrying a round table. If i'd just asked him.
But, and that's the reason i doubt, it was at IKEA in Reykjavik. ------------- 
http://imageshack.us"> 
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Posted By: Slayertplsko
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 16:55
| The number of Arthurs has drastically inscreased in last 1500 years...especially in Baumax and IKEA stores. |
Posted By: Efraz
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2008 at 20:47
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Very interesting, I did not know Iranians' such claim of Arthur's origins. Yes I have heard and mentioned the Sarmatian theory but the claim is interesting. I have always thought the legend of Arthur has many older Celtic ties to it although the name itself belongs to a later era. Anyway it's always good and amazing for a myth to be claimed by different cultures. Like Troy as I mentioned before. If I had a say in the issue I would give permission anybody to claim the legends for themselves. Some legends does belong to anybody who believes in what they stand for. |
Posted By: Count Belisarius
Date Posted: 25-Jul-2008 at 19:29
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There is a theory that Artorius was the Dux Bellorum of Brittania, and he was trained by Ambrosius Aurerlianus the last roman commander in england, and he led the romano-british armies against the saxons, who knows? mabye he had sister named morgana and mabye there was a druid named myrddin, or mabye not, there's so much myth and legend surrounding those times that we may never know what really happened. ------------- 
Defenders of Ulthuan, Cult of Asuryan (57 Kills and counting) 
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