Pre-Christian Poland?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Medieval Europe
Forum Discription: The Middle Ages: AD 500-1500
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=200
Printed Date: 29-Apr-2024 at 16:50
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Topic: Pre-Christian Poland?
Posted By: boody4
Subject: Pre-Christian Poland?
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 19:14
| I've only read two books on Polish history and it doesn't say much about it's pre-christian history. I was wondering if my fellow Poles could tell me all they learned and know about this period. (Seeing "Stara Basn" has gotten me interested lol) |
Replies:
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Aug-2004 at 20:47
|
I take interest in Polish history only in the period after 963, the year when Prince Mieszko had to adopt Christianity for Poland (or else face the Teutonic extermination). To me, the idea Poland without Christianity makes no sense whatsoever. By the way, I am your fellow but regrettably not your fellow Polanie. |
Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 06:05
| i know nothing before 1390 or so... or maybe about Kazimierz... anyway the Lithuanian Great-Duke Jagiello was a pagan before his marriage with Jadwiga... |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 12:19
|
Ya I know that Poland is WAY better off Christian, I'm just interested in learning more about something I don't know that much about. PS: I don't midn if non-Poles answer too. I just wrote that because it's obvious that a Pole will have a better chance of knowing the answer to my question than someone else. |
Posted By: TJK
Date Posted: 19-Aug-2004 at 13:11
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We know nearly nothing about pre-christian Poland however modern polish scholars assume that in the second half of IX centaury the new ruler have take the power in Gniezno. The prince name was Siemowit and he controlled probably territory of Greatpoland. His son Lestek have conquered Kujavia, Mazovia and the land of Ledzianie (todays Sandomierz). Son of Lestek - Siemomysl have directet the expansion toward north, conquering the land between Greatpoland and Pomorie. Mieszko was the son Siemomysl and he start to rule about 960 AC. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 18:54
|
Latest archeological works seems to proove that the capital of Polanie tribe was Poznan while Gniezno was a pagan religious center.This year in Poznan archeologists found huge fortifications, a city wall or rather earth/wood/stone wall about 14 metres wide and 10 metres high. 2 years ago also the palace of first polish rulers was discovered also in Poznan. Both the palace and fortifications are dated on half of the 10th century. The size of these constructions seems to proove that Polanie were a well organsied tribe and that my city - Poznan was their political center. |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 20-Aug-2004 at 21:31
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Can you guys tell me a bit about their religion, rituals habits, stuff liek that, anything you know? PS: In Stara Basn, what's the name of the king Siemowit and Piastun kill? |
Posted By: Rava
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 09:36
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boody4 wrote:Can you guys tell me a bit about their religion, rituals habits, stuff liek that, anything you know? A great Polish historician said that the knowledge of the religion of Poles in the pre-christian period could take one sheet of paper. Mosquito wrote: 2 years ago also the palace of first polish rulers was discovered also in Poznan. A blue paint found on the walls of this palace was prepared on lapis lazuli base. That could be imported only from present day Afganistan.
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Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 21-Aug-2004 at 18:21
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This is somthing what i havent read in the newspapers. Do you have more info and details on Poznan archeological research? So far i know the archeologists didnt publish final results of their works yet. |
Posted By: Rava
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 03:25
| An interview with prof.Kurnatowska, in "Newsweek" or "Wprost" Magazine, I should be shot I can't recall #of the issue. |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 10:54
|
Well can you paste that sheet of paper on the thread then? |
Posted By: TJK
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 13:21
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Try Aleksander Gieysztor, Mitologia Słowian or just look here: http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/SlavPan.html - http://web.raex.com/~obsidian/SlavPan.html or here: http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitologia_S%C5%82owian - http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitologia_S%C5%82owian |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 21:50
 So Svantavit is the name of the God shown in Stara Basn???
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Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 22:04
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The English site was very informative and I tried reading the Polish site even though I only understood only like half of the words because written polish and spoken polish is very different and I'm only used to spoken. Nevermind, I found the English version of the site. |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 22-Aug-2004 at 22:20
| I wonder if there's an entirely translated in English version of the Book of Veles on a site, because last time I checked I can't read Russian. |
Posted By: Scytho-Sarmatian
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 04:22
|
The names of some of the pagan Slavic deities are nearly identical to those of the Indo-Aryans.
Here are a few examples off the top of my head: Shiva (Sanskrit) = Zhiva (Russian) = Zywie (Polish) Vishnu (Sanskrit) = Vesna (Russian) = Wisnie (Polish) Varuna (Sanskrit) = Perun (Slavic)
BTW, I'm of mostly Polish descent, so naturally these things fascinate me.
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Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 24-Aug-2004 at 10:33
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Do you know from where in Poland your descendants are mostly from? Mine are mainly from Malopolska and the territory lost to Ukraine(I don't know the name of the province/region). The later immigrated to the new acquired German territories to Silesia. PS: Too bad there's not more documentation on pre-christian Poland. It sounds so interesting, especially finding out where exactly did the Slavs come from(b4 coming to Eastern Europe) and other stuff like that. |
Posted By: Scytho-Sarmatian
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 02:16
|
Boody4- My Grandfather had said that our family was from Galicia. He was born in Tarnow. Thanks for asking. It's good to know someone here has similiar interests. Hopefully we can learn more here on this forum. Rava is really good on this subject and seems to have a wealth of information. I wonder if ScythKing from the old AllEmpires forum is here, maybe under a different name (BTW I used to be GoldenAge on AllEmpires |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 11:20
Yes, I know a lot of things about Slavs and their migrations, but I'm also knowing the less known information like "religion"  and other minor details like that.
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Posted By: Temujin
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 13:37
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what was the ruling title of the pre-Christian rulers? did they have a Khaghan like the Kievan Rus? ------------- |
Posted By: Rava
Date Posted: 25-Aug-2004 at 16:02
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Kneze, Kneź, in arabic sources gnez, in one relation khagan Rus. In Poland also książę or ksiądz, kniądz and kniaź. It's interesting that ksiądz was latter transfered to name any christian priest. In my opinion książę might remain old IE kshiatria. |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 00:21
| Did they teach you in Polish history class though a bit about pre-christian Poland? |
Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 28-Aug-2004 at 17:57
|
ok, pre-christian Poland, during my tirp to Poland this summer I picked up some books, one ofthem was "Poczet krolow i ksiazat", it has a list of King's before Christian Poland emerged, hope you can udnerstand Polish good: KRAK- Maz szlachetny, biegly w walce, jako pierwszy z Polakow obrany krolem, podjawszy walke z Gallami, wyslanymi tu przez krola Aswerusa, pokonal ich.
W owym czasie smok zostal zgladzony na skale przez mlodszego syna krola Kraka. Ow nastepnie dopuscil sie bratobojstwa, za co potem zostal pozbawiony korony w Polsce i nie objal wladzy po ojcu. WANDA- Corka Kraka, ktora zwyciezywszy krola Lemanow nie poslubila go, a skladajac ofiare bogom o pomyslnosc i szczescie narodu a wlasnej wole rzucila sie do Wisly. Za panowania Wandy Polacy od imienia wladczyni zostali nazywani Wandalami. Przez sto lat Polacy nie mieli Krola. LESZKO- Pierwszy, bezpotomny maz, biegly w sztuce zlotniczej, podstepem zwyciezyl Aleksandra Wielkiego pod Lysa Gora. W jego czasach Aleksander Wielki w walce z Polakami poniosl sromotna kleske, po czym zaniechal dalszego pustoszenia kraju i odstapil w pokoju. LESZKO- Drugi, maz skromny, zwyciezyl innych w wyscigu do mety; w nagrode za zwyciestwo zostal wybrany korlem. Ow byl chwalony z powodu czterech cnot a mianowicie: mestwa, hojnosci, wstrzemiezliwosci i pokory. LESZKO- Trzeci, jedyny syn Leszka Drugiego, trzykrotnie pokonal Juliusza Cezara. Ten polaczyl sie z nim wiezami przyjazni: oddal mu za zone swa siostre Julie, ktora urodzila Leszkowi dwudziestu synow. W owych czasach Chrystus narodzil sie w Betlejem, a Oktawian, syn siostrzenicy Juliusza Cezara przyjal godnosc imperatora. POPIEL- Pierworodny syn Leszka Trzeciego, najstarszy sposrod dwudziestu braci. POPIEL- Wnuk Leszka Trzeciego, syn Popiela. Jego wraz z zona i dwoma synami zjadly myszy w wiezy kruszwickiego grodu. Byl rowniez zwany Chosciskiem. Wtedy to Krol Popiel otrul dwudziestu braci ojca, dla ktorych sam byl bratankiem, oni zas jego stryjami. PIAST- Ubogi rolnik z Kruszwicy, przez meczennikow Jana i Pawla w cudowny sposob zostal wyniesiony na krola, gdy rod Popiela wyginal ze szczetem. Od jego panowania bierze poczatek nowa dynastia krolow. SIEMOWIT- Jedyny syn Piasta, niezwykle laskawy i energiczny; zawsze odnosil triumfalne zwyciestwo nad wrogiem. Ow Siemowit odzyskal wiele utraconych ziem, uwazano, ze we wszystkich przedsiewzieciach sprzyjalo mu szczescie, wykazywal sie przedsiebiorczoscia i zawsze dzialal z pomyslnym skutkiem. LESZKO- Czwarty, syn Siemowita. We wszystkich poczynaniach wstepowal w slady ojca. SIEMOMYSL- Syn Leszka Czwartego, ktory nad wszystkimi ziemiami i poddanymi swemu wladztwu panowal w pokoju. ....the other are the Christain Kings, Mieszko and so on. You may o may not believe what it says aboutt hese kings, but thats what it says in the book. |
Posted By: Scytho-Sarmatian
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 02:20
|
Sarmata- If you could give just a short translation into English of some of the highlights of the selection, it would be greatly appreciated! My Polish is limited to "Hi, how are you?" and that sort of thing. |
Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 13:14
|
Somehow I saw that coming, yeah Imnot gonna go word for word with it but I'll sum them up ok so i got the book form Poland history of Kings and princes of Poland. And they have this list of past Kings...and here we go..
KRAK- a nobel man, good warrior, first of the Poles to be chosen as King, fought against Gauls(? if someone knows from POlish Gallami help me out, Im assuming it's Gaus, in Latin it's Gallis)anyways they were sent by there king Aswerus, Krak defeated them. Kraks son would be the conqueror of the dragon which I assume you hear in Polish folklore, he would not be the next King after his father becuase he killed his own brother. WANDA-Kraks Daughter, she was supposed to marry the King of Lemanow( Germans), but she refused and sacrificed her self to the Gods by throwing herself in the Wisla (Vistula). After the reign of Wanda the Poles called themselves Wandalami(Wandals, Vandals). For 100 years the Poles werw without a King. LESZKO- The first,he defeated Alexander the Great under Lysa Gora.(yeah I know hard to believe, and it may be unrealistic, but it's what it says, and no where in this book does it say legendary kings or mythical)After Alexander lost to the Poles he left the country in peace. LESZKO- The second, defeated others in a race to Meta(?).As victor he was chosen as King. he was very honorable he had 4 traits that was very famous for, I can't translate them dammit. LESZKO- The third, the only son of Leszko II, three times he defeated Julius Caesar. They later became good aquiantances and Caesar gave Leszko as his wife his sister Julia which gave birth to 20 sons for Leszko. Elsewhere around the same time Christ is born in Bethlehem. Oktavian somehow related to Caesar gets in good witht he empire(dont know how to translate that one too good). POPIEL- first born son of Leszko III, the oldest amongst 20 brothers. POPIEL-grandson of Leszko III, son of Popiel.He was eaten along with his wife and kids by mice in the tower of Kruszwickiego. He was later called Choscisko(if you watched Stara Basn you can maybe make some connections here). He killed all of his fathers brothers by poisoning them. PIAST-He was chosen by some Martyrs I guess, Jan and Pawel to be King, when Popiel and his heirs all died out. From him starts a new Dynasty of Kings. SIEMOWIT- Piasts only son, unnaturally full of energy, and sincere. He always brought about great victories against his enemies. Siemowit regained lots of lost territory. LESZKO- The fourth, son of Siemowit. he followed in his fathers footsteps with everything he did. SIEMOMYSL- son of Leszko IV, he had reigned in peace. and thats it the rest are Mieszko which was the one who accepted christianity,a nd thats that, interesting to hear though that Mieszko was born blind, after 7 years though he would be able to see. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 30-Aug-2004 at 16:41
| anyway this book must be the worst garbage i ever heard about. |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 01-Sep-2004 at 16:54
| Are the Kings you mentioned considered to be "Piast" or it's only Piast who started that royal bloodline. And can you answer my question about Stara Basn, why did they call Popiel something Piastoca(or something close to that) and there's a guy named Piastun and then there's Siemovit? That really confused me. |
Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 00:13
| Im not 100% sure but I think they called Siemowit Piastun, as a last anme thing I dont remember them calling some other guy piastun, I may be wrong, havent watched the movie for a while, though now thta I think about it they might have called Daniel Olbrychski Piastun, so Im not sure aboutt hat one myself. and yeah that Piast Era began with Piast, the others were a different dynasty Im guessing. |
Posted By: TJK
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 14:02
|
Sarmata, all this - let say - " legends" came from the chronicle of http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wincenty_Kad%C5%82ubek - Wincenty Kad³ubek In fact earlier http://monika.univ.gda.pl/~literat/autors/gal.htm - Gall Anonim chronicle is much more trustworthy.. |
Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 02-Sep-2004 at 15:00
| You're probably right, but I listed those Kings because they were "pre-christian", true or not, I dont know, that's for yourself to decide. But Gall Annonim was a chronicler of Poland after it was christian was he not? |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 03-Sep-2004 at 19:18
| Yes Olbrzychski was Piastun and that younger actor that I don't remember the name was Siemowit. |
Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 14-Sep-2004 at 00:08
|
The Piasts originally consisted of four "legendary princes" who ruled the four main territories around the Vistula river. The princes were Piast, Siemowit, Leszek, and Siemomysl. They were reportedly peasants who were entrusted with the rule of Poland by God because of their hard work and piousness. It was from these princes that Mieszko I was said to have descended (either as a son or fifth brother, depending on the source.)
So that mmight explain why one of them was siemowit the other was Piastun, or w/e, thats the only thing I can think of. |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2004 at 22:48
| Ok thats a logical answer.. |
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 18:07
There are no Teutonic Knights in Poland at that time. Holly Roman Empire is the main threat. This is why Mieszko took Christianity from Czech kingdom. |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 11-Jan-2005 at 19:41
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Well, actually he was baptised in Regensburg (Germany). He just didnt want to do anything with Saxons. |
Posted By: tzar
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 08:46
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Excuse me, can I ask you a question (not about this topic, but it is about the Poles) Are you slavs or not?!  |
Posted By: Rava
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 09:01
|
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Posted By: tzar
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 09:04
| what does "kutriugust" mean? |
Posted By: Rava
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 10:05
| Kutriguri, Onoguri - proto-Bulgars. |
Posted By: tzar
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 15:00
The word "onoduri" I've heard it somewhere, but in Bulgarian it sounds differently. Those who you are speaking about are assimilated long long time ago. Historians says that we are slavs.thanks |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 12-Jan-2005 at 19:49
|
Thats depends what do you mean by asking if we are Slavs or not. We use western slavic language and we come from the slavic people who were named Polanie. But we dont feel (so far i know most of us) to be part of any great slavic family together with Russian's , Serbs, Croats or Bulgars. Most of us dont feel any love or great relationship to other so called slavic nations. We are Poles and panslavic ideologies we consider as sick and nasty. Our culture is unique and different than russian or yugoslavian. The most close to us are other nations which use western slavic languages: Czechs and Slovaks, but even with them we dont feel much relationship. |
Posted By: tzar
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 12:36
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I asked you because your language has many similar words as our and I know that motherland of the slavs is on the area of today's Poland. I understand your feeling (we have the same against most of them |
Posted By: Rava
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 13:04
|
Tzar, who said Poles hate Bulgars? In case of Poland its territory was homeland for many cultures mostly of Celtic and Germanic origin. Then there had been an empty place before Sclaveni settled there. We still don't know our background. But we share similar language with you and this is the point of being Sclavic. |
. In case of your history there's no problem to recover following waves of tribes dwelled in your country through the ages; the Thracians, Scytians, Romans, Sclaveni, and 10000 Bulgars
.Posted By: tzar
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 15:57
|
ok thanks a lot. I made myself a wrong conclusion! Am I offend you? if yes I'm sorry |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 17:49
You missunderstood me. We dont hate Bulgars or others. We just dont follow any panslavic ideologies. And affcourse there is no offence. |
Posted By: Polish-UkrainianCanadian
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2005 at 20:46
I don't know alot about Poland. I am Polish-Ukrainian thats all I know. I am proud of my heritage!!!! POLSKA!!!! yKPAÏHA!!!! preferably from Central Asia i believe we are from I thought.
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Posted By: Polish-UkrainianCanadian
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2005 at 17:17
i hate poland now. its boring and selfcentred like most nations of the world. ------------- 'doter ton craindre grandeur' |
Posted By: boody4
Date Posted: 16-Mar-2005 at 18:35
| ok, why the sudden change of attitude? |
Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 22-Mar-2005 at 16:18
| there's no change; if a person changes his mind on his ethnicity so fast he wasn't what he said he was in the first place...saying Poland is self centered means you dont know much about it... no offence or anything |
Posted By: errata
Date Posted: 30-Mar-2005 at 15:30
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By the way somebody manioned about the origins of the slavs here. Can you give some more information please. Thanks in advance |
Posted By: Sarmata
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 00:17
| I dont think there's one sure origin of the slavs, we are an indo-european peoples, there's alot of different theories, at least I think so, otherwise IMa s confused as you. some ppl believe that the original home of slavs was the area of kazakhstan, others around carpathians and Dniepr. I myself do not know the origin of the slavs 100%. Some even believe there to be a Sarmatian link tot he slavs being that the Chroatians take there name from a place around the caucasus and are believed to be a sarmatian tribe like the Alani, who settled aroudn the are of Poland-Ukraine. Some Serbian said once that since greeks mispronounce some names he says the sarmatian can acctually be Serbatos or something can't remember, I got the link somewhere if i find it I'll leave the link at the end. And supposedly the Chroatians and Serbs first settled around the are of Poland. Serbs(sorbs) in germany-Poland, and Chroatians making a state called Chrobatia settled around the ae of Krakow making it its capital. then heraclius called these tribes for help, and thats how the whole schism happened the avars got in there. Youc may also look at some legends of Lech, Czech and Rus, where it sais that these three brothers came from the Kroatskie Hills. Bascially a lot of migration going on, talkin about it gives me a headache...im going ot go srest now... |
Posted By: rider
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 10:54
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It was spoken here, that slavs were originally from somewhere jusat a little north of Caspian Sea, and those places, while the Finno-Ugric ethnic group is a little bit from upwards, so I think it goes about like this. East Slavs: West Slavs: South Slavs: and so on.. this isn't the full table, but it is from the Wikipedia article i read few weeks ago... 1.the autochthonic theory assumes that Slavs had lived north of the Carpathian Mountains since 1000 BC.
------------- |
Posted By: Mosquito
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2005 at 21:39
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Originally Slavs were considered only one of all the tribes which were Venetii, Slavs and Antae. Altough all those groups are called Slavs. Slavs were those who today are living in balkans, Venetii were those who are called western Slavs (also Wends, Vinds, Venedi) and Antae - eastern slavs. There are 2 theories about original home of the Slavs. One says that it was in the area of Danube where from they spreaded northeast to the Volga river and Caspian sea. The second theory says that original home of slavs was between rivers Vistula and Dnieper where from they spreaded to sought, west and east. |
Posted By: Scytho-Sarmatian
Date Posted: 01-Apr-2005 at 04:57
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Recently discovered genetic evidence indicates that the Slavs had their origins in the ancient nomadic steppe peoples. This pretty much lends credence to what Sarmata said. The genetic marker in question is called Eu19, and it is found mostly among the Slavs and some peoples of the Indian Subcontinent and Central Asia. It is also found to a lesser degree among other European peoples like Germans, Scandinavians, and British. BTW, as was mentioned earlier, the pre-Christian gods of the Slavs resembled those of the ancient Indo-Iranians. In fact, some where almost identical, with similar names. I would say that the map with the arrows posted by Rider is probably a fairly accurate portrayal of the original migration routes of the Slavs. |
