was TROY a civil war???
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Ancient Mediterranean and Europe
Forum Discription: Greece, Macedon, Rome and other cultures such as Celtic and Germanic tribes
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=18130
Printed Date: 09-Jun-2024 at 08:32
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: was TROY a civil war???
Posted By: Top Gun
Subject: was TROY a civil war???
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 13:30
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well no because it where all independence states troy was one of them and moreover and independent culture and kingdom.
Aggememnon only united those states under his rule that why they where going united against troy
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Replies:
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:05
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Nope,it wasn't.And why it should be in the first place?Achaioi,who differed from Trojans, wanted to conquer or destroy Troy,because of it's strategic location and ,probably,of Troyan taxes to Achaian ships. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 26-Feb-2007 at 14:22
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I don't see it as a civil war eather.
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Segestan
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 10:03
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The Trojan War was , at least in part , a cultural civil war. According to Legend: Teucer was the first King; he was succeeded by Dardanus, who brought the ‘ Palladium’ from Samothrace. The last monarch was Priam, the richest and greatest potentate of Western Asia , his rule extending over several contiguous nations, as well as the coast of Thrace, and the confines of Thessaly. Mount Ida was the scene of the Judgement of Paris. The Ten Years siege allowed the Greeks to contain the Trojans while towns along the Hellespont were reduced by Ajax ; Achilles extended his conquests along the Euxine ; Menelaus subjected several states in Phoenicia, Syria , Egypt and Cyprus. The Trojan War was one of conquest and plunder. Seems likely that for an City such as Troy to gain the power and influence it did many territories most likely were tribute paying, the Greeks took those paying territories and all the treasury. ------------- Fate is Our Fortune |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 13:58
 Bravo Segestan! Nice point. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Top Gun
Date Posted: 27-Feb-2007 at 14:06
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I saw it as an worthles opinion and with an bad argument ( but thats my opinion take it not too serious) ------------- |
Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 28-Feb-2007 at 14:14
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It is most likely due to the Greek's attemt to monopolize the Western Medditeranean Sea and to end the economical and military competiton, as Segestan pointed out.
Just a question, Greeks united to invade Troy. Didn't Troy had any allies in the Asia Minor? Did they get any help from other cities nearby? Did the Trojans stayed behind the walls, or did they fight in the beaches in the beginning? ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 01:30
They had allies especially from Thrace. Now, I do not remember if they fought outside the walls. They must have considering the duration of that war. -------------
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Posted By: Istor the Macedonian
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 09:36
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A civil war? No, I don't think so. But it was like a war between Italians and Spanyards. Yes, Trojans had their allies from Asia Minor, apart Thracians, Dardanians, Peonians ... from Europe. ------------- Istor Macedonian, therefore Greek! |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 15:05
| According to mythology,until Hector's death Trojans fought outside the city's walls.After his death,they lost their leader,hence they preferred to fight from inside the walls. |
Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 16:21
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I never recall any records of any foreign reinforcement to aid Troy. Anyone have any evidence that Troy's allies came in time for aid? ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">
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Posted By: Onogur
Date Posted: 01-Mar-2007 at 23:46
Yes, many thracians.... in fact many thracians fought on both sides. In a metter of fact if you read more carefully both Iliad and Odyssey, and also dig for some extra info, you will find out how many of the main characters in the Troian war were thracians, partly thracians or related to thracians. So, in a way ... it was a civil war - a thracian one.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 10:02
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In the aristocratic world of Homer, there is neither an indication of ethnic difference between Trojans and Achaeans, nor even much a sense of common ethnicity among Achaeans. ------------- 
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Posted By: kroni
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 15:20
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yes, i think it was a real civil war, the world have to know this. ------------- be strong king "couse aleats come themselves |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 02-Mar-2007 at 18:55
Between which nations and where do you get this information? What people inhabited Asia Minor by that time? We have no specifications on ethnicities. We just know that Lydians, Phrygians and Aeolians were around the area. If they were Aeolians which I doubt since Aeolia equaled Thessalians, then it was a civil war. If it was Phrygians, then the case is kinda far fetched. If it was Lydians, then it is too early if not completely wrong to speak about a civil war. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: kroni
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 07:07
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i want to add that according to Homer and Herodotis either Phrygians and so lydians were from the same tribes,the same culture.....
i will post the facts of their writtings in the future ------------- be strong king "couse aleats come themselves |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 13:28
Well, Lydia was a bit inside Asia Minor but that doesn't mean Troy couldn't be connected to them. The Phrygians had their Kindom next to Bithynia, Mysia and Aeolis. However, the Phrygian tribe of Thrace called Bithynioi was not the same as the Bithynians. The Bithynians of Asia Minor were supposed to be people that settled there after Jason and the argonauts. The Trojans could however be Luwians. There is a small linguistic connection between Greek and Luwian (mostly everyday words) but also cultural. Remember that the Carrians (who were originally Luwians) became during the fifth century equal to the other Greeks because of heavy Hellenization. Generarly we can only make assumptions. The area was populated by all these nations at that early stage. -------------
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Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 19:39
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As Trojans were not Achaeans, no, it was not. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 08:13
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we have to say also that according to homer the troyans were called also like dardans....
and after that more dardans were appeared at both sides.... we must give a more attention to dardans i think..... |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 07-Mar-2007 at 14:56
where homer called as Dardanians the Troyans ? -------------
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 08-Mar-2007 at 07:37
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where homer called as dardanias the troyans???!!!....
we all know perfectly that Aeneas(ENEAS)was called like *ENEAS DARDANIDI*. This man was the one who created *Alba Longa* in italy after the war of troy....(Virgilis) |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 10:42
That's because Aeneas is a Dardanian, he is not a Trojan. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 16:28
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i think it was a civil war couse the peopel that fought were pellazgains at both sides ------------- |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 26-Mar-2007 at 17:56
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Are you back Liburni?
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SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 12:34
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whats the problem flipper?!
what i am saying is only my opinion and not the liburni"s one
and by my opinion it was a civil war
its not my foult that i am an albanian like liburni ------------- |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 31-Mar-2007 at 12:37
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by the way i suggest you to buy the book that recently was published in france and has made a great disscussion there....
it is called albanians and the odisse of a prehelen nation
it will help us for this teme, dont miss the chance to read it ------------- |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 15:43
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On Trojans as they were mentioned Dionisios Allicarnassus-(Roman archaeology .a'61 k.ex) <<And the trojan nation hellenic from peloponisos came forth>> Διονυσιος Ο Αλλικαρνασευς (Ρωμ.Αρχ.α'61κ.εξ.) <<...και το Τρωων εθνος ελληνικον ην εκ πελοπονησου ποτε ωρμημενων >> Agon Homer & hesiod,Papyrus III,dublin 1891,page 70) <<And the Trojan genos is Hellenic from the start>> Αγων Ομηρου και Ησιοδου,Παπυρος ΙΙΙ,Δουβλ. 1891 σελ 70) <<και το Τρωικον γενος ελληνικον αρχηθεν ην>> and britani really your posts lack any evidence or logic.Only albanian nazi propaganda ------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 16:13
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It was a civil war between hellenic nations.Thankou all.Also reading the iliad would help you .
------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Athanasios
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 16:37
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Homer does not refer any translators btw the Greeks and the Troyans.
omaimon(the same blood)
omothriskon(the same religion)
omoglosson(the same language) ------------- 
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Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 16:43
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Dionysius of Halicarnassus (1.61–62) states that Dardanus' original home was in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia - Arkadia thus Dardanians were at most ancient times greeks.He was the ancestor of the Dardanians of the Troad and, through Aeneas, of the Romans.
------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: britani
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 17:42
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surley it was no a real greek civil war pompe trogue says: pelop brought from frigia his nation to this land and to honor of him this was called pelopones .......werent frigians at both sides according to this point of view?! ------------- |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 19:08
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Go read the Iliad read greek and latin texts and stop with you r gibberish.You dont have the basic faculties of logic.
------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 19:13
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Trojan side=hellenic nation+Achaean side=Hellenic nation=War=Hellenic nations at war=Civil war. ------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Athanasios
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 20:08
What are you talking about? Peloponessos took its name from Pelopas. You know Mykines?  -------------
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 25-Apr-2007 at 20:54
I don't get this equation. What's the antiderivative of this?  ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">
Join us. |
Posted By: olvios
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 04:25
 good one!
------------- http://www.hoplites.net/ |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 20:19
Some of Troy's more exotic allies included the Amazons and Ethiopians. They were fierce warriors but no match for Achilles ------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: Centrix Vigilis
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2012 at 20:54
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Representations in art of the conflict. see the link: http://www.philipresheph.com/demodokos/catalog.htm - http://www.philipresheph.com/demodokos/catalog.htm ------------- "Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence" S. T. Friedman Pilger's law: 'If it's been officially denied, then it's probably true' |
Posted By: Nick1986
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2012 at 19:53
Impressive collection
------------- Me Grimlock not nice Dino! Me bash brains! |
Posted By: TITAN_
Date Posted: 08-Jul-2012 at 10:18
was TROY a civil war???Definitely not! Trojans were foreign to the Greeks... |
Posted By: medenaywe
Date Posted: 08-Jul-2012 at 10:34
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It describes&reminds about who wins&who lost!
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2012 at 19:19
| Interesting names have been found in Hittite texts, mentioning localities such as "Ahhiyawa" (Achaia?), Wilusa (Ilios), Miliwata (Miletus?), personages such as Tawagalawa (Eteocles, from *E-tewoclewes), Alaksandu (Alexandros, another name for Paris), etc. |
Posted By: Delenda est Roma
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2012 at 12:20
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Wasn't it an attack by Mycenaean raiders? ------------- |