Flying boats: The new terror of the sea?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Modern Warfare
Forum Discription: Military history and miltary science from the ''Cold War'' era onward.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17826
Printed Date: 13-May-2024 at 08:46
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Flying boats: The new terror of the sea?
Posted By: maqsad
Subject: Flying boats: The new terror of the sea?
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 00:55
|
I saw a video a while back of the Iranian navy indoctrinating a flying boat. I believe its use is as a swarm attack on a fleet or aircraft carrier or even a port. They fly at 100 knots and since they go 10 to 20 feet above water they cannot be caught by radar. Look kinda cheap to build too so 20,000 might not be that hard to come up with. I guess they could also be modded to become submersible minisubs in order to be able to[optionally] sneak up on sea craft or lie in wait among reefs waiting for prey to come by. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D4GijAjw_o How would a destroyer or even an aircraft carrier deal with these if, say 1000 of these showed up on the horizon suddenly and at 100 knots would be closing in within 2 minutes? Each one could have a special forces guy on board firing a couple of missiles upon approach, ditch the boat and dive, and maybe trying to climb aboard with a few hundred others[under heavy fire obviously]. I dunno what the defence against this kinda swarm attack would be, maybe flamethrowers or shrapnel bombs or FAOs or gas?  |
Replies:
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 07:54
|
can it really fire weapons? the clip claimes it, those images however don't confirm it. (im pretty skeptical) i need to see it really operate before i think its more than a good concept |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 08:19
|
hey you can buy such things from the USA ( http://www.hovercraft.com/content/index.php?main_page=index - www.hovercraft.com ) this comes in a kit form, rather basic from your looking at maybe (US$) 5-6 grand.  A still from the iranian footage  here a picture of another from an australian sight  the danger from Iran is with the weapons your don't see, and that growing missiles technology. |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 09:37
|
That civilian one offered in the US can also go on snow ice, mud, flat deserts and ofcourse water. They can also hold six people, and are alot cheaper then alot of military technology. I think if they were seen effective at all, the US would be looking into their own verson, it's obviously not a new thing. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
|
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 12:55
|
Yea but what would the US use it for? It already has effective means against any potential targets of that craft's design (i.e. ships). ------------- |
Posted By: Goban
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 13:47
|
The "flying boat" has been around since the early-mid 20th century. Even Jimmy Buffett cruises around in his Catalina. Also, 100 knots, I could scream by them in a Cessna...
I think it's a pretty cool bird though. It would probably sell quite well if they decide to bring it to market... ------------- The sharpest spoon in the drawer. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 18:20
|
I was also looking at the flying boat in terms of, to put it crudely, suicide missions. We know that countries like the US who fight most of their wars on the other side of the planet do not have very many people willing to die in their forces. I would argue that most of the people signed up today signed up because they were attracted by the extremely low casualty rate of the US armed forces. Particularly the Navy and Air force. Army has a higher casualty rate I believe. If the US attacked Iran then for the most part Iran would defend itself with the same types of weapons as the US has--and lose miserably. For half a billion dollars or maybe a billion. Iran could have 100,000 of these flying boats positioned all over its coastline and if there was an all out attack the Iranian airforce MIGHT be able to hold its ground for a couple of hours before being wiped out. During those two hours the IAF could provide cover for 50,000 of these boats to reach pretty much all the US bases along the persian gulf. Is that not worth a lot in a military scenario? 100,000 crazed fanatics manning flying boats going on kamikaze style missions with a couple of decent missiles and rockets to launch? Anyway when Iran was counter attacked by Iraq and Iranians were fighting tooth and nail for their very survival there were hundreds of thousands of Iranians willing to die. Now I am not sure what kinda brainwashing the Revolutionary guards go through but is it possible that they have no fear of death and suicide missions kamikaze style? So would this $5,000 weapon not be ideal for an army of 100,000 amphibious kamikaze type of strike force with some pretty decent training too? |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 19:44
|
in terms of kamakizi attack these could be useful but they have to be a bit bigger and hold a decent punch, other than that recon missions could also be realistic.
Iran has a pretty good missile capability. I think it this more lethal, less costly (Human) way of dealing with the USN. While a few mssiles can be countered, mass co-ordinated firings can break through the CIWS defenses. This I think will be actaully used in an event of conflict. Other than that, the rest is all 'smoke and mirrors'.
Ive read of a scenario (maybe one of zagros's sources
 ) of iran using fast missile boats in swarming hit and run attack a few times. Not in a predictable uniform way it did during the iran-iraq/usn war, which the USN can (and has) counter(ed) but in a chaotic fluid way. Suicide attacks is very much conceiveable during the high intensity faze, when the chance to break through is at its highest, though you'd rather a fast boat so you can hit the water line. |
Posted By: Northman
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 21:36
|
There are numerous sites about the these crafts, its nothing new.
http://www.se-technology.com/wig/index.php - Here is a rather comprehensive site with articles, pics and movies.
------------- |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 22:24
|
I know the boats are not really new but I just get the idea that they could be used in combat in a very unorthodox way. Now that fast missile boat swarm attack. That is probably very hard to deal with because you do not have one large metallic structure to fire repeatedly at. Its almost as if the ship or air craft carrier were being attacked by fighter bombers. Well its got me thinking now, maybe a new two man version of these flying boats could be made. One guy would pilot the craft and the other would fire bullets, rockets and missiles while it is being maneuvered. The advantage would be very simple. About 1000 of these could be used to sneak up on a fleet and then suddenly jump up between 30 and 50 feet in the air, repeatedly overflying the ships hulls and while flying over it, shoot indiscriminately at anything that moves and more importantly any gun turrets as well as parked airplanes and copters. This could be the equivalent almost, of a piranha attack on a human. |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 03-Mar-2007 at 06:05
|
maqsad, sorry for delay.
As some mentioned, these are not new.
Iran's navy does not use them for attack. They use them to ferry elite troops.
If detected, they're supposed to be able to confuse enemy surface-to-air weapon systems by switching from airborne to surface mode, or confuse enemy air-to-surface weapon systems by doing the reverse, but I don't know if that's true. Oh, the Iranian navy claims these boats are immune to most enemy submarines, but again, I'm not sure if that's true.
 Edit: photo added.
|
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 12:38
| Np, the boat does seem to be very useful for quickly moving troops. Is this picture a generic hovercraft or something unique to the Iranian navy? |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 13:09
It's from IMF (Iran Military Forum). Not much info was with it other than what I posted above.
|
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 04-Mar-2007 at 16:28
It looks completely different from the other one in the official video. Maybe they have a larger version for troop elite transport. |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 14:38
|
maqsad,
Look at this flying ship idea.
  |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 17:08
Wow someone has been spending too much time with Autocad. Why would the 8 jet engines not be attached to the regular wing? These guys should stick to their day jobs of repairing boats. 
|
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 19:53
|
How effective will be the wing operation given the proximity of engine exhaust flow to the wing. + wouldn't it be easier to just use boats. ------------- |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 10-Mar-2007 at 21:59
| Boats cannot fly over coral reefs and buoys and sea mines without blowing up. Flying boats can however. Also boats would trigger movement sensors placed around buoys. |
Posted By: aghart
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 05:17
|
The mind boggles!! has no one heard of AWAC's. These canvas suicide flying boats wouldn't get within a hundred miles of a US task force. Any success against other targets would be small and localised. Mere pinpricks paid for by huge casualties ------------- Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 07:07
| What we saw in the video was a toy more useful for domestic consumption than taking out aegis/awac equipped US forces. The Iranian's will not show their cards until a conflict has started. Try and give these guys some credit! |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 11-Mar-2007 at 12:02
|
I dunno if AWACs could detect these as well as they detect a large metallic destroyer or even patrol boat. For one thing the body can be made entirely of fiberglass so no blip there. Then the prop can easily be painted with radar absorbing paint and the motor can also be shielded similarly. Also since these only cost $5000 or so to buy then it wouldn't be that hard to rig up 1000 of them where about 900 are unmanned decoys that home in on targets while 100 of them might have, optionally, special forces at the helm. This would draw out a lot of wasted missiles. $10 million could buy the exaustion of 2000 precision missiles of the USN. Also 20 or so could be rigged with pricier SAMs designed to launch if they detect fighters on the horizon. |
Posted By: think
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 02:58
|
Interesting. I heard from a reliable accompliance that the Iranians have been considering arming up legions of camels so they can be used as Missile platforms. The Americans/Israelis should be ready to counter all sorts of advanced tech. |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 08:35
I heard that think won't be a member at AE for long.
 |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 10:26
|
Iran dose not really need flying boats for kamikazi missions. More effective will be the subs, the kilos. Granted they are pretty low tech suiff, but in shallow waters, with lots of ambient noise will be a BIG threat.
------------- |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 13:58
| Iran only has 2 or 3 Kilo subs. And I would bet that Navy seals have plastered sonar sensors in every square mile of the persian gulf which is quite shallow and sub-unfriendly to begin with. I think if war did break out all three of those subs would be sunk in less than an hour. The only way they could possibly survive is by staying in the gulf of oman, and I am sure the USN has made it their top job to litter key points there with sensors as well. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 14:05
|
Sub hunting is a pretty impricse art. In the falklands the Argentine WWII era sub managed to elude the entire Royal navy.
------------- |
Posted By: aghart
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 17:29
And how many British Ships did they sink? "NONE" ------------- Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines |
Posted By: aghart
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 17:45
Please Please join Osma ban Laden. Your idea's are great until the US Navy sends it['s F14 Tomcats to investigate and then allows them "free time" to practice using their aircraft mounted cannons to totally destroy the easy targets presented to them. The Iranians like the Iraq's would be difficult to fight when they use non conventional (terrorist )weapons but in a conventional war the US would not even break into a sweat. I include these "stupid" (and stupid is the correct description) suicide weapons as conventional weapons. My military experience is limited to Armoured warfare and I know the limitations of my experience, but some of you lot have been reading far too many comics and maybe should stick to comics! ------------- Former Tank Commander (Chieftain)& remember, Change is inevitable!!! except from vending machines |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 17:49
|
The Argentine naval war took place in the south atlantic ocean. By comparison the Persian gulf is like a bathtub. There is no comparison. The US navy has been playing cat and mouse games with the soviet navy all throughout the cold war in every ocean of the world. Iran is just getting started, I seriously doubt Iranian subs will be able to survive more than a few hours in the Persian gulf. The arabian sea...maybe but I am convinced personally that the top priority of the US navy has been to swarm the coastline around Iran with sensors. This is why I think the lunatic like kamikaze attacks would be very effective as a deterrence. Its sheer insanity for a country like Iran to take on the US and expect to survive intact for very long. However, its also pretty close to lunacy for the USN to have half its ships sunk and all its bases turned to rubble as well when it does not have to be that way. Those three Kilo subs could be sunk within hours...its just 3 subs remember. But 10,000 flying boats of which 9,000 or more are unmanned remotely operating or auto operating drones would create a logistical nightmare for the US to deal with. How do you deal with a swarm attack of 10,000 amphibious contraptions of which 9,000 are unmanned decoys? Does the US even have 10,000 missiles? Can you imagine how many fighter jets will have to be sent ahead to try and take these out...and how many missiles can each fighter carry anyway? 20 max? And each one of those aircraft would be highly vulnerable to SAM attack. I initially thought these boats were a bit of a joke but the more I think about it, the more useful these boats can be to a technologically disadvantaged navy like Iran's. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 12-Mar-2007 at 18:00
I don't see what Osama Bin Ladin has to do with any of this? War itself is "suicide" to begin with for the defender when you have a nation like Iran or Iraq pitted against the US. And if the US pits itself against an equal oponent(as if thats likely) then the casualty rate can be considered "suicidal" by some. But do tell me, how many tomcats would be needed to take out a swarm attack of 10,000 flying boats simultaneously closing in at 100 knots? 9,000 of these boats would be unmanned decoys while up to 1000 would be manned by special forces who have SAM missiles with BVR capability ready to fire at any sign of an "investigation". Also, the special ops could just slip under water and wait to be rescued or grab a working drone to run back to their base. It doesn't have to be a "martyr" operation at all. |