Descendants of the Prophet?
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: Post-Classical Middle East
Forum Discription: SW Asia, the Middle East and Islamic civilizations from 600s - 1900 AD
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17797
Printed Date: 28-Apr-2024 at 11:46
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Topic: Descendants of the Prophet?
Posted By: omshanti
Subject: Descendants of the Prophet?
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 06:18
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This is what I found about the Sayyids in wikipedia. Are they really direct descendants of Mohammad? From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seyed - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seyed Sayyid (سيد) (plural Saadah) is an http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honorific - honorific title often given to males accepted as descendants of the Islamic prophet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad - Muhammad through his grandsons, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan - Hassan and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Husayn - Husayn , who were the sons of his daughter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatima_Zahra - Fatima Zahra and his cousin and son-in-law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_ibn_Abi_Talib - Ali ibn Abi Talib . Indication of descentSayyids often include the following titles in their names to indicate the figure from whom they trace their descent. If they are descended from more than one notable ancestor or Shi'a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imam - imam , they will use the title of the ancestor from whom they are most directly descended.
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Replies:
Posted By: Shiroyeh
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 08:30
Would this thread not be more at home in the Post-Classic Middle East forum_topics.asp?FID=22 -  section?
------------- ' How shall a man escape from that which is written; How shall he flee from his destiny? ' Ferdowsi |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 08:55
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Sayyid is mostly a shia adoption and IMHO part of a identity synthesis that resulted in the wake of spread of islam. What is the best family, the prophets, so if you are going to create a new identity then why not affiliate with the best. A lot of early muslims would have been divorced from their communities anyway, so seems logical.(Just a guess) . ------------- |
Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 09:24
You are right Shiroyeh. Thanks for pointing it out. I have to admit that I was not interested in the post-classic/Islamic era in the middle east at all and therefore did not notice the existence of that sub-forum untill now. I also simply thought that it would be read by more Iranians here. Any way, Moderators please move this thread to the post-classic moddle east sub-forum if possible.
Does that mean that none of the sayyids are actually the descendants of the Prophet? |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 10:01
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My guess is 95% are not. Also those that are don't necessarily call themselves Sayyid. I would think that his decendants would be concentrated around southern Iraqi cities of kufah, Najaf, and hijaz, and maybe some areas of Jordan. ------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 17:24
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Shia care alot more than sunnis about being a Syed naturally, and indeed there are many that are made up. You have to remember that some people claim to be a syed without being a hashmi - which is impossible as far as I can see, syed is also a name, and some people (particularly punjabis) took the name hashmi when they converted without being related to the hashmi family. As for me, my family is from the Hejaz. Syed Omar Hussain al Hashim al Quraesh ------------- |
Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 18:45
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No offense to muslim. But do you think the term "direct descendant" of Mohammed is somewhat misleading as Mohammad left no son , hence no paternal descendant ,when he died. The so-called direct descendant of Mohammad is actuallly the offshoot of Ali although you can argue that Ali was more like a step-son figure of Mohammed ,plus they both came from Banu Hashemi clan. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 18:56
Ali was married to the Prophet's daughter, they had children hence those children would be the biological grandchildren of the Prophet.
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 18:58
Why? Don't girls count as ancestors? Your talking about direct paternal descent ------------- |
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 19:09
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It's a scam - Syed is just a continuation of Brahman. ------------- |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 20:30
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What has Brahman got to do with anything? Although some do use it to scam people. ------------- |
Posted By: Aktufe
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 22:22
| From what it seems to be done by those "syeds," Zagros is correct. |
Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 22:45
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duplicate. |
Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 13-Feb-2007 at 22:46
I am not saying they don't . But normally the family lineage only pass from father to son, not from father to daughter . But I think in Mohammad's case it is exceptional given the relationship between Mohammad and Ali. |
Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 00:24
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Interesting opinions here. I guess it is understandable that most of them are not really the descendants of Mohammad, because there are unbelievable amount of seyeds (sayyids) out there (millions?). After all Mohammad or his grand children must not have been like genghiz-khan who left millions of descendants all over the place, have they?
I knew some Seyed people in Iran who were not happy at all about being seyeds because they hated to be stereotyped as mullahs or be expected to act like religious islamic people in public. Some of them were able to change their names or take off the seyed part from their names during the chaos of the revolution. The ones that could not take advantage of the chaotic revolutionary times were not able to change it because the islamic government does not alow it. Is it possible for a seyed person to convert to another religion in middle eastern countries? I was just wondering because their names already indicate a strong islamic background. It would be really strange to see a christian or jewish or zoroastrian person with a seyed name. This whole topic is making me interested in the origins of people's family names in general. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 14-Feb-2007 at 14:13
Depends of the social organization.If we talk about a patriarchal society then it is ,indeed,normal the family lineage to pass from father to son.But if we talk about a matriarchal society,then the family lineage passes from the mother to the kids,especially daughter. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 09:20
Yes you are right, Arabs follow a patrilineal descent. Mohammed once carrying his grandsons, one in his arm and one on his shoulder with referring to them had said: "these are my progeny". So i guess this is why people accept them as the line of Mohammed. Ofcourse biologically the blood line would be through the daughter as well as the son. ------------- |
Posted By: omshanti
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 00:55
Can you please explain why they would be concentrated in to those cities and areas? I was just wondering because I have absolutely no knowledge about the history of Mohammad or Islam. Did those areas have a big role in the development of Islam? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 17-Feb-2007 at 01:07
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Ali's descendants lived there. |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 03:55
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Also, Hashemite family, current royalty of Jordan, former royalty of Iraq and family of former Sherif Hussein of Mecca, claims to be descendants of the prophet, however their lineage is coming from uncle of prophet, Abbas. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Penelope
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 07:32
Omshanti, you bring up a good point. Today there is a good percentage of people in Asia, who carry the Genghis Khan gene.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 13-Mar-2007 at 17:06
Hi,
The hashemites of Jordan, and those of Iraq previously, are the descendants of the Sharif Aun-Al-Rafiq Al-Qutadi, are the descendants of Al-Hassan Ibn Ali Ibn Abi Talib, not Al-Abbas. There is only one family in the arab world that claims descent to the abbasids, that is the Ba-Wazir family, although they have nothing to ascertain that claim, and their name implies Hadhrami descent.
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Posted By: marocain
Date Posted: 27-May-2007 at 07:26
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This issue can be treated in a genetic point of view: http://www.familytreedna.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2025&page=1&pp=10 |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 27-May-2007 at 08:19
Reading back the above, why i have included Najaf in the above i have no idea. Might have been the news effect from the ongoing war in Iraq. I was making an educated guess and lack any conclusive proof.
In response to your question:
Kufah was a city settled by Umar-bin-Khataab(2nd Caliph) where he sent some 6000 of the best among his people, the most versed in Islamic tradition. Raised from around Hejaz, it would make sense to believe that some were relations of Mohammed.
Hejaz was the homeland of the prophet pertaining to makkah and medina. It would make sense to believe that some may have stayed behind.
Jordan because that is where members of the Hashemite tribe (tribe of mohammed, named after his grandfather) exiled when the Saudi's took over Saudi Arabia.
The one thing i seem to have left out is Damascus. After Karbala the Ummayads had shifted the survivors of the Ahl-bayt to Damascus. What happened next, i don't know.
I have extended the meaning of descendants to incorporate his immediate relatives or those who share his blood line or kin.
@Zagros
Syeds are incomparable with Brahmans. ------------- |
Posted By: gilaki
Date Posted: 23-Jan-2013 at 19:56
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hello i am new here, and I am a shia from persian and french origins I studied a lot the shia history and I know well the common sayings of iranians about sadat, which are most of the time wrong. first of all, the term sayyid means in arabic, master, but it can also be used as mister. the plural is sadat. For shia muslims a sayyid is a descendant of the Prophet Muhammad(saw) through his daughter Fatima(as) and his cousin Ali(as) only. And a sayyid is normally only a descendant of Imam Al-Hussain(as) , who is their son. The descendants of Imam Al-Hassan(as), who is their first son and the 2nd shia Imam, are normal called ashraf (sing: sharif). But nowadays, we call both sadat The reason why they are that much sadat in the world and why they are located like this is simple, we just need to study the history. Most of Sadat in Iran are now Hassanis, husseinis and for the big majority musawis. Imam Musa Al-Kazhim(as), our 7th imam, had between 30 and 60 kids (scholars are not sure of the number). His first son, Imam Al-Ridha(as) was forced by the abbasid caliph Al-Ma'mun to migrate to Khurasan from Madinah. After few years the Imam being in Khurasan, his siblings, who all stayed in Madinah, decided to come to join him. They decided to go forming two groups. Al-Ma'mun knew they wanted to come to join their brother and it would have had given strenght to shia faith, and spread even more the message. So as all abbasid caliphs did to the Ahlulbayt(as), he decided to oppress and kill them. Al-Ma'mun's men were sent to destroy those two groups of siblings and family of the Prophet(saw). The groups were attacked near the actual city of Qum in Iran. Some members of the family were killed, others could hide, but most of them could escape and hide in other cities. Thats why now, you can find many shrines of what we call in persian "emamzadeh", which means descendant of Imam (their siblings or offsprings) in all Iran and that explains also why, most of those emamzadeh were siblings of Ali ibn Musa Al-Ridha(as). You can find two of his brothers for example in the city of Shiraz, his famous sister(as) in Qum, another sister in Rasht. Most of them far from each other. And thats also the reason why most of iranian sadat, are musawis. They are descendants of those siblings who escaped. You can find sadat in Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwayt, Pakistan, Afghanistan etc. In all countries mentionned above, you can find more sadat of a certain "tendency". For example, many naqawis (from Imam Al-Naqi(as)) and Taqawis ( from Imam Al-Taqi(as)) in Pakistan but very few in other countries. They are other people who are related to the Prophet Muhammad(saw), as for example, descendants of his cousins etc, but we dont call them sadat. In shia faith, only sadat clerics can wear a black turban, others have to wear a white one. A sayyid has more duties according to the faith than regular people. Also another thing to mention, someone can be called a sayyid only if his father, paternal grand-father, parternal great grand-father etc were sayyid. You have this title only through your dad lineage. If your mother is a sayyidah but you father is not a sayyid, then you are called a mir or a mirza. I believe that 90% of iranian people have sayyid blood, as most of people have one sayyid in their lineage. If you ask some iranian people, they will tell you that a seyed (persian word for sayyid) were descendant of arabs who married persian women during the conquest of arabs in Persia, which is totally wrong |