Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Regional History or Period History
Forum Name: East Asia
Forum Discription: The Far East: China, Korea, Japan and other nearby civilizations
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=17373
Printed Date: 29-Apr-2024 at 22:35
Software Version: Web Wiz Forums 9.56a - http://www.webwizforums.com
Topic: Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war
Posted By: The Charioteer
Subject: Ming atrocities in Korea during Imjin war
Date Posted: 25-Jan-2007 at 22:53
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http://img.kbs.co.kr/drama/drama_photo/004/002/004002055_L.jpg - http://img.kbs.co.kr/drama/drama_photo/004/002/004002055_L.jpg
 http://img.kbs.co.kr/drama/drama_photo/004/002/004002064_L.jpg - http://img.kbs.co.kr/drama/drama_photo/004/002/004002064_L.jpg
The above two scenes are reconstruction of Ming soldiers raping Korean women during Imjin war.
It seems these are scenes come from a Korean history drama about Admiral Yi Sun Sin?
Could anyone provide more detailed historical documents that record the atrocities commited by Ming army during Imjin war?
Because from one sided view of Chinese history text books regarding Imjin war, these atrocities are never mentioned.
So i would really like to hear different opinions.
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Replies:
Posted By: stupidumboy
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 02:34
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Yes, they are based on the real history record,
Accordi ng to 'the annals of Chosun dynasty.'
宣祖 91卷, 30年( 1597 丁酉 / (萬曆) 25年) 8月 7日 乙丑 6
漢城府啓曰: 當日到付中部主簿牒呈內, 本月初六日夕, 私奴世亨招內, 有一蒙白女人過去, 唐人扶執, 脅奸作計。 怒其牢拒不從, 拔劍剌腮及項, 又斬世亨十四歲童奴末叱山頭, 手持橫行云。 敢啓。 頗遊擊管下軍李宗義及被傷女人德只等, 麻都督使頗遊擊取招, 則李宗義招辭以爲: 昨日失馬尋蹤之際, 兒童三人在路上牽去, 見我追去, 二兒走避, 一兒顚仆。 進捉詰問, 則只謂我强盜, 醉酒中拔劍殺之 云。 德只以爲: 自市上從抄路轉過, 唐人一名逆來, 欲爲怯奸, 高聲走過, 則拔劍趕到, 刺傷右腮。 時有一兒從後來, 亦爲大呼强盜, 則返追兒童, 因爲擊殺 云。 遊擊以女人之說爲實, 稟于都督, 斬首於鍾樓街上云。 上曰: 知道。
宣祖 103卷, 31年( 1598 戊戌 / (萬曆) 26年) 8月 1日 甲寅
劉提督接伴使金睟馳啓曰: 衙門各將, 到全羅地方, 多發軍丁, 搜索遠近, 無髮者, 皆綁拿。 得病落髮者及僧髡, 亦皆被拿, 一日之間多至數百。 天兵因此出入村巷, 奪掠財産, 刦奸婦女, 至有强奸童女。 事覺, 提督梟其甚者。
Maybe cydevil could help some translation if you are confused to understand articles clearly.
There are more but I am just showing the authentic record about those incidents.
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Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 07:18
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Thanks stupidumboy, this answer will do my need. Now im just gonna copy and paste these examples straight to the Chinese forum where they are having discussion about this matter and believe such is exaggerated even fabricated. But the truth speaks for itself, now i have something to add to that discussion.
If there are more authentic records please provide.
Also would you inform me where i can get online copy of "'the annals of Chosun dynasty"? for clarification and reference purposes.
And i'd like to read it personally sometime.
BTW, you are resourceful, do you know where i can read Admiral Yi Sun Sin's war diary? I'd like to have some cross-referencing.
Thanks in advance. ------------- |
Posted By: stupidumboy
Date Posted: 26-Jan-2007 at 14:05
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You are very welcome.
I will try other authentic sources , if you are OK , there are other sources but they are private written records during the Imjin war by chosun national persons.
You can read 'ANNALS OF CHOSUN DYNASTY ' on this link.
http://sillok.history.go.kr/main/main.jsp - http://sillok.history.go.kr/main/main.jsp
You can try Chinese or English version but they just inform guide how to check original articles throuout Korean site function.
Its not that difficult though.
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Posted By: snowybeagle
Date Posted: 01-Feb-2007 at 22:44
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No one should presume their people to be above committing atrocities. It is always those on the lower social strata who suffered the most, be it from their own social superiors or from outsiders as in the case above.I do note though that the records refer to the Ming soldiers as "People of Tang" despite the fact that the Tang Dynasty had been gone for more than half a millenium. But it would make even less sense to refer to them as "Ming people" because the character Ming has its own meaning.
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Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 04:40
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Wow, this is pretty interesting. I always thought that the Japanese were primarily the ones ravaging Korea. I never realized that the Chinese did some bad stuff too. :x
Like snowybeagle said, I guess that nearly every country has a bad mark on their history... ------------- "Dai Ichi Dai Man Dai Kichi" |
Posted By: snowybeagle
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 11:10
We're talking different eras ... historically, the people living in the Korean peninsula got it from all sides ... Tang Dynasty, the Mongols, the Jurchens, the Japanese ...
Though some of them also had their moments when they were strong enough to strike at their neighbours ... like Bohai during the Tang.
That's for sure.
Until humanist ideals became more widespread, most governments were not even fair to their own people, much less to non-citizens.
Or perhaps it is a common phenomena for military men in the past to take liberties with those they were suppose to aid. Heck, it happens even today with UN peacekeepers.
What is different though is it is seldom tolerated if exposed, unlike the past.
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Posted By: jiangweibaoye
Date Posted: 02-Feb-2007 at 12:01
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Snowybeagle,
Very well put.
Totally agree.
Jiangwei
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Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 16:06
Yeah I know, but this thread is talking about the Imjin War. I knew that the Chinese fought with Koreans sometimes, but just never realized that the Ming, ostensibly Korean allies during that war, even did nasty things. I knew the Japanese did some pretty horrible things (kill many and mutilate bodies to make a nose mound, destroy a multitude of buildings, etc.) in the Imjin War. ------------- "Dai Ichi Dai Man Dai Kichi" |
Posted By: snowybeagle
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 19:08
Tragically, some Ming soldiers probably did the same thing to their own people. Many officials were not appointed for their competence and did not discipline themselves, much less their own troops.
Any mention in the Korean historical records of the response of the Korean government to this?
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Posted By: snowybeagle
Date Posted: 03-Feb-2007 at 19:26
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I just realised what was it about the pictures that puzzled me - the uniform of the Ming soldiers.
The use of the colour yellow, even non Imperial-yellow, was regulated.
I do not think Ming soldiers would have been issued with yellow uniforms.
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 04-Feb-2007 at 16:34
I thought you were Chinese, no? If so, you should be able to translate them... right?
Don't know much about Ming's intervention in the war, although they did not change the tide of war much. Their first attack to Japanese armies were a total failure, mostly because Chinese advance party underistimated the Japanese invaders. It was mostly Korean resistance and new Korean army reinforced with Ming's superior cannons that changed the tide of war, not to mention Yi Sunshin's effort to blockade and reduce the transportation, reinforcement and supply route to support the Japanese armies in Korea. ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
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Posted By: stupidumboy
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 01:15
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My English is not so good to trabslate all them with appropriate words , so I just told cydevil could
do it because he can do both of good Chinese and English.
back to your opinion about Ming troops,
Ming was reluctant to get involved in the Imjin war first time.
But finally decided to send supportive troops.
As you told ,their contribution was under expectation.
but IMO without Ming's support ,
Chosun was invaded by Toyotomi absoutely.
Ming sent about 190,000 infantries to support Chosun and financially it supported Silver 20,000 liang (unit) . The 20,000 silver was a lot of fund that King Sunjo addressed money left even after collecting more troops and giving saleries to beaucrats.
When Ming sent its first deployed troops , Chosun had no ground forces to block Japanese north heading.
You cannot deny the fact that the battle of Pyongyang changed the situation of Imjin war. The winning was made by Ming troops.
Lee Sun Shin was great admiral but hes navy commander.
Contribution is limited.
It was winning of Pyongtang battle that made Konishi to head back to the South.
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 09:17
I see. I often doubt about how much Ming could have done to Chosen Dynasty since Ming was in decline, and other Chinese rivals were planning to sack Ming. I do agree that they made difference to Imjin War, but I wonder how much they really did.
Yes, I can understand the financial aid. This makes sense to me, although again... I wonder how much Ming can do when their homeland's situation was in crisis as well. Mind if anyone fill me up with some Chinese history here? ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">
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Posted By: Slick
Date Posted: 05-Feb-2007 at 23:59
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It's definitely true, at least in the first korean campaign. Under Konishi Yukinaga, Kato Kiyomasa, etc. the Japanese swept through Korea quickly and with ease. It was not until the Ming invaded that the Japanese were pushed off the peninsula. The combination of Ming reinforcements and Yi Sun Shin's naval victories was what mainly allowed the Koreans to win in the end, in my opinion. ------------- "Dai Ichi Dai Man Dai Kichi" |
Posted By: jiangweibaoye
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 11:17
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Very true. Admiral Yi achievements are great, but naval floatilla cannot garrison or capture a city or hold a stragetic pass (except a naval routes).
Wars are always won by the infantry.
Even with Air Power, it and Naval power almost always plays a supportative role in a War. The real battle is almost always on the ground.
Jiangwei
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Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:05
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There was similar thread made a while back.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10207&PN=2 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10207&PN=2
Here is what I wrote back then:
"Undoubtedly, the Ming Army had commited atrocity during the time when garrisoned in Korea as one forumer had pointed out looting and raping was inevitable during the medieval warfare. However, by saying the extent of the atrocity perpetrated by the Ming Army was as much as Japanese Army is highly unbelievable. If the Ming Army was really as bad as the Japanese Army as someone claimed , why were so many Korean still faithful to the Ming regime even after the downfall in 1644 when the Manchus invaded Beijing. Here is one statement written in Classical Chinese by the one of the Korean official at that time to stress the relationship between Ming China and Joseon Dynasty:
"我朝三百年來，服事大明，其情其義，固不暇言。而神宗皇帝（明神宗萬歷皇帝朱翊鈞）再造之恩，自開闢以來，亦未聞於載籍者。宣祖大王所謂義則君臣，恩猶父子，實是真誠痛切語也."
It roughly translates as " The Joeson Dynasty has been serving faithfully the Ming China for the past three hundred years. The bond was uncuttable between the two nations . The grace that have been given by Emperor Wanli (means sending troops in Imjin War) was a like rebirth to a child by a father."
King Hyojong of Joseon Dynasty even plotted to assist in restoring the Ming Regime but was never able to put in action because of internal issue and the growing mightiness of Manchu Qing Dynasty.
Not to mention till the end of Qing Dynasty in the 19th Century, many Korean still secretly used the reigning title of the Last Ming Emperor . Songzhen 崇禎in remembrance instead of the contemporary Manchu Emperor reigning title."
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:19
Indeed. Even in modern warfare, land forces really determines the winner. Except in sea because infantry don't tend to fight and swim at the same time...
But yes. Yi Sunshin may have tried his best, but the outcome of war was determined by land. He simply sped things up.
------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:20
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And can someone answer my question about the Ming's capability to aid Korea, as explained in my earlier post? Anyone who are expert in Chinese history? ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">
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Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:28
I saw this korean-made TV drama. I think it is called "The immortality of Yi Shun Shin" or something like that.
I would say all the Chinese in this drama were depicted as despicable, treacherous, lousy and wimpy scumbag and all they did was conspiring with the Japanese to ransack and loot the Korean.
It made no mention of the contribution done by Chinese. Not even the Battle of Pyongyang and Kaesong where the Chinese successfully drove the Japanese from the Northern Korea theater. All the battles were fought bravely and won by the Korean.
Chen Lin was depicted as an asshole and all he wanted was refraining YI from engaging and taking credit from him.
Didn't make any mention about how the 70 years old Veteran admiral Tang Chi Lung (was played by an actor who looks like 40 years his junior) sacrificed himself during the battle Noryong.
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Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 06-Feb-2007 at 19:33
Although Korean drama is really sickening sometimes because their historical accuracy is as poor as ever, I got to admit that their drama is actually good. I heard some are getting really popular in Korea's neighboring countries... except North Korea... ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi">
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Posted By: jiangweibaoye
Date Posted: 07-Feb-2007 at 13:38
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Killabee,
Very good point.
Also like to state the sad state of affairs between Koreans and Chinese presently and compare it with the sense of "brotherhood" between Joeson Dynasty and the Ming.
Of course, the relationship between Ming and Joeson had its major drawbacks, but their relationship seems more amiable than the present situation.
Jiangwei
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Posted By: YanWang
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:00
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I have just read about the atrocities alleged by the quoted chinese text given.
It cannot be called a real atrocity.
They look merely individual accidents conducted by some bad chinese soliders during the chaos of the korea peninsula. and most importantly, as the text states those criminal soliders later were all punished and beheaded by their chinese superior commanding officier stationed in Korea. that is why when then Choson King heard the report on the accident, also as the text tells, he responded with nothing but "noticed". ------------- 
 What is Your Question Again?
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Posted By: YanWang
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:24
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_War - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imjin_War
Here the wikipedia gives very good detailed information about the war.
about chinese role during the war,
one thing is the most unforgotten fact, that from the time the choson's capital was taken by Japanese, korean resistance forces turned to be a supporting role to the Ming Chinese allied forces of which at that time koreans calls as 'celestial army' , which a reference to China - allegelly a land where the son of heaven resides.
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What is Your Question Again?
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Posted By: YanWang
Date Posted: 15-Feb-2007 at 04:42
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Ming China and Choson Korea were realy like bothers.
More or less they almost shared ONE culture , from cloths, offical language(written and literacy), rituals, ceremonies, holidays, governmental structure, offical religions. everything except Choson has a native leader titled King(strictly speaking, Provincial King 郡王 under Ming ranking rituals, as stated in some Ming's commissionary edicts to the choson leaders).
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What is Your Question Again?
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Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 14:38
 This Ming dynasty scroll is depiction of Ming army suppressing a rebellion in 1575. Since this event happened during emperor Wan li's reign, as its the same emperor ordered the Chinese army to enter Korea to fight the Japanese.
I think we have a good reason to believe the Ming army depicted in this scroll would have some resemblance to the army dispatched to Korea. ------------- |
Posted By: Siege Tower
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 15:31
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Do you think imjin war is the key factor which contributed to the downfall of Ming dynasty? ------------- |
Posted By: intem
Date Posted: 20-Apr-2007 at 18:55
I've always hope that who ever drawn this painting scroll could draw it closer so we could actually get a closer view on the armours of those soldiers were wearing. ------------- J.T.I.J |
Posted By: MengTzu
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 03:19
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I'm kind of surprised that Ming was depicted that way in that drama. Ming and Yi Chosen were probably the closest allies with each other at the time, and that was one of the periods when China and Korea had the closest ties. During both the Imjun War and the Manchurian invasion, the two nations stuck by each other. The drama reflects more of the current relationship between the two countries rather than history. (The beef really goes back to the Korean War -- my impression is that South Koreans hate Mainland China about as much as North Koreans hate America. The Koguryo debates just make things so much worse.) It's sad how current events can distort our views of history. ------------- http://www.sloganizer.net/en/"> 
(Credit to Cwyr and Gubookjanggoon for first using the sloganizer.) |
Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:03
This Ming painting scroll "出警入跸图"(Chu Jing Ru Bi Tu) depicts emperor Wan li (1563～1620A.D) on his way to imperial mausoleum.
A Taiwanese stamp depicting the scene:
"出警图"(Chu jing tu) http://www3.freep.cn/photo36/070421/16/0704211630039085.jpg - http://www3.freep.cn/photo36/070421/16/0704211630039085.jpg
"入跸图"(Ru bi tu)
http://images16.51.com/l/200704/60/db/lolapoz/4088_632_5730a37d88c4be44.jpg - http://images16.51.com/l/200704/60/db/lolapoz/4088_632_5730a37d88c4be44.jpg
details from the scroll:
             A drawing of Ming soldier in armor, accord to the armor depicted in the scroll.
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Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:08
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Another Ming dynasty scroll "倭寇图"(Wo kou tu)depicting Ming army fighting the Japanese pirates.
refugees:
  Ming army fight the Japanese pirates:
      The phrase on the banner of this ship says "to protect the country and to save the people" (护国救民)
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Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 21-Apr-2007 at 06:18
Here is a reconstruction of Ming military outfits.
 Notice the uniform of Ming soldier to the far right, and compare it with the Ming soldiers depicted in this Korean history drama
 you can see there are some resemblance between the two. Perhaps the design of Ming outfits from this drama is based on that reconstructive drawing. ------------- |
Posted By: intem
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 04:55
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charioteer, you are my legend. I've always been looking for these scrolls depicting ming dynasty infantry and cavalry clad in armour. Questions, are there any story background with these scrolls and also are these scrolls drawn by a person from ming period, because i would like to know that whether its a replica or something but i hope this isn't a replica. The reason behind is that, if it's a replica thats drawn by a modern day artist they might exaggerate it; for example, if peasants weren't suppose to have armours reality but they tend to draw it so just to exaggerate that even the peasants was acquired to wear one. ------------- J.T.I.J |
Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 14:20
The first scroll is called "出警入跸图"(Chu jing ru bi tu), it depicts Ming imperial procession on their way to the imperial mausoleum for paying respect to the ancestors, and it also depicts the scene of them on their way back to the capital.
The second scroll is called "倭寇图"(Wo kou tu). (I just uploaded 3 more pictures)
These scrolls are from Ming dynasty, they are not replica, nothing is exaggerated in the depictions, because the armoured soldiers depicted in first scroll are imperial guard units, I believe their armour is unique.
Here is some information on the imperial guard units:
"明会典--卷一百四十二
侍卫 朝廷侍卫将军等项人员、各该官统领。凡圣节、正旦、冬至、三大朝会、 大祀誓戒、册封、遣祭传制御殿、则用全直。常朝、则更番。其衣甲器仗、及陈列位次、各有定制。 凡掌领侍卫、侯伯驸马等官六员。一员管锦衣卫大汉将军、及勋卫、散骑舍人、府军前卫带刀官。四员管神枢营红盔将军。每日一员轮直，一员管五军营叉刀官军。 锦衣卫大汉将军一千五百七员名。 府军前卫带刀官四十员。 神枢营红盔将军一千五百员名。把总指挥十六员。明甲将军五百二员名。把总指挥四员。大汉将军八员。 五军营叉刀围子手三千名。把总指挥八员。 勋卫、散骑舍人、无定员。 旗手等二十卫带刀官一百八十员。 凡圣节,正旦,冬至三大朝会及大祀,警戒,册封,御殿等场合,都有掌领侍卫官及锦衣卫大汉将军,神枢营红盔将军等按照一定位次,负责警卫侍从工作.掌管侍卫官头戴凤翅盔,身着锁子甲,腰佩绣春刀;侍卫将军盔甲整齐,佩刀,执金瓜或斧械. 甲胃的具体形制,《明会典》没有记载.十三陵的两对将军像则对其凤翅盔(头黎),顿项云肩(呈布巾状,又称披巾),披膊,臂猎,兽头吞口,抱肚,吊腿(腿裙)及鹤尾,战靴等各部位均雕刻得十分具体形象,且甲片的形式,鹊尾形状,抱肚上的图案等丰富多彩,为人们了解明代侍卫将军的服饰提供了可靠的依据. " So the armoured soldiers depicted in the first scroll are the imperial guard units described in the above text.
The text is an extraction from Ming documents, it didnt describe in details what these units were dressed like.
However we can refer to the stone guards which are still standing today alongside the "spiritual way" of Ming tomb situated at outskirt of Beijing.
  Now compare the second stone guard to the guard depicted from the scroll
see the armour of the one holding the hammer(which is the same weapon to that of the stone guard is holding), it does actually resemble the armor wore by the stone guard.
The stone guards are carved during Ming dynasty, since their outfits do have resemblance to some of the armours depicted in the scroll, there is a good chance the military uniforms depicted in the painting indeed existed during the Ming period.
Besides,
 Since the costumes of civil officials are depicted accurately in this scroll, we should have some confidence in believing that the military personnels depicted in the scroll are also accurate.
more pictures of the armour wore by the stone guard.
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Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:02
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P.S. remember the thread about the TV drama "江山风雨情"(Jiang shan feng yu qing) http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12085 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12085
This is the armour wore by Ming emperor from that drama
 compare it to the armour wore by emperor Wan li from the scroll
( http://www3.freep.cn/photo36/070421/16/0704211633151514.jpg - http://www3.freep.cn/photo36/070421/16/0704211633151514.jpg )
 you can see the resemblance there between the two.
How about the soldiers depicted in the TV drama "Jiang shan feng yu qing"
 I dont really know where the costume designers get their ideas from,
but here is a Ming painting "射雉图"(She zhi tu), which depicts a Ming military officer on a trip of hunting.
http://images16.51.com/l/200704/60/db/lolapoz/1538_2000_7e10cd57c09077b0.jpg - http://images16.51.com/l/200704/60/db/lolapoz/1538_2000_7e10cd57c09077b0.jpg
see one of his follower's outfit
 actually have some resemblance to the uniform depicted in that drama. perhaps the costume designer of the drama was inspired by this painting.
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Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 22-Apr-2007 at 15:28
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intem, as for the questioning on the background of the scroll "Chu jing ru bi tu". CCTV 10 features a wonderful documentary series called "The national treasures" (国宝档案), one of the episode is actually about this scroll. You can view it online at
part 1- http://www.qqtag.com/video/show/video-detail-7771786A.html - http://www.qqtag.com/video/show/video-detail-7771786A.html
part 2- http://www.qqtag.com/video/show/video-detail-77717869.html - http://www.qqtag.com/video/show/video-detail-77717869.html
or along with many other episodes, you can check it out here
http://lib.verycd.com/2006/04/06/0000097566.html - http://lib.verycd.com/2006/04/06/0000097566.html ------------- |
Posted By: intem
Date Posted: 23-Apr-2007 at 19:14
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by the way charioteer where did you able to download all of these scrolls? Did you download them or did you scanned from books and upload them. Also, mind if you could upload some pictures depicting ming soldiers fighting against those japanese pirates and also some imjin war scrolls depicting ming soldiers fighting them too. ------------- J.T.I.J |
Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 08:05
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Killabee is the original uploader for "Chu jing ru bi tu".
I have more pictures of "Chu jing ru bi tu", but they are too large. I uploaded them to mofile , 2262233432637038 ------------- |
Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 20:29
If imjin is a key factor, where do we put Lizicheng's rebel army who was the one captured Beijing?
Did the Ming lost its military ability after imjin war? I dont think so.
Even mother nature had more contribution than imjin war.
Elnino caused unusual long period of drought(several years) across much area of China during late Ming period, which subsequently triggered locust plagues etc. And it was under this circumstance, large number of rebel armies were mobilized.
The main force of the rebel army was once encircled by Ming army at the narrow valley of Chexiangxia for more than 2 months, been cut off from supplies, the rebels were doomed for certain. But oddly, Ming army let the rebels "tricked" them and let them go? As the Ming government always assume many of them were once simple farmers, they were forced to become what they are now because of natural disasters. The government didnt really want to exterminate them. But ironically, those who escaped this time became the actual one which they eventually captured Beijing.
Besides, the question may be asked the other way, like What if Ming didnt answer to Korea's call and participate in the war?
Im sure history drama like this one would give us the impression that Korea would had won the imjin war on its own.
Its interesting to see all those propositions that "imjin war is a key factor which contributed to the downfall of Ming dynasty", but thats a debatable interpretation, just like the proposition "without Ming's participation, Yi dynasty would had seen its downfall before Japan" is a debatable interpretation.
If relatively speaking the more obvious is still a matter of debatable proposition, then why should the less obvious one be readily accepted as the last word? ------------- |
Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 24-Apr-2007 at 20:35
maybe the beef is more tasty than that
http://www.fightersalon.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=6093 - http://www.fightersalon.net/bbs/showthread.php?t=6093 ------------- |
Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 00:21
| Haha.. can't believe some of the pics I uploaded long time ago can be seen in here. |
Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 00:40
  General Guan wearing Ming style armor. |
Posted By: Killabee
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 00:56
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Here are some of the series of "出警入跸图"(Chu Jing Ru Bi Tu). I will post more when I have time. http://img409.imageshack.us/my.php?image=01d8519u4irfg0tm1.jpg">  http://img249.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02e6kskmrz0vb2tz6.jpg">  http://img251.imageshack.us/my.php?image=02ea40xko4naw3gg6.jpg">  |
Posted By: intem
Date Posted: 26-Apr-2007 at 02:42
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Killabee are you a chinese? How were able to get these magnificient pictures? ------------- J.T.I.J |
Posted By: The Charioteer
Date Posted: 30-Apr-2007 at 18:04
This painting illustrates a Ming general in armor
 If compare it to the armor wore by stone guard of Ming tomb
The similarity is quite obvious. ------------- |
Posted By: heyamigos
Date Posted: 31-Aug-2012 at 08:01
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This may be another reason why Sui and Tang spend so much time and energy invading Korea in the past too (for the women). It is written that the soft and light features of Korean women was desired in the past. In Japan, Haplogroup O2B has a slightly higher rate than O3, while in Korea, O3 is slightly higher than O2B. Could it be this recent Chinese influence in Korean genetics?
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Posted By: Martjn
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2018 at 06:34
| Lol I knew non of you guys can read this. Both source literally said that the delinquent soldiers were executed by the Ming generals themselves. |
Posted By: Martjn
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2018 at 06:35
I mean in those texts. Sorry for the quotation fail.
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Posted By: Martjn
Date Posted: 12-Apr-2018 at 06:39
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"遊擊以女人之說爲實, 稟于都督, 斬首於鍾樓街上": Youji (an army rank) takes the women's words as real, told the Dudu (higher ranked general) and had them killed. "事覺, 提督梟其甚者。": When discovered, the Tidu (synonymous to Dudu) had the most extreme ones beheaded. |