Do you believe that Turkey will enter EU
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Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Current Affairs
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URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16654
Printed Date: 12-May-2024 at 15:23
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Topic: Do you believe that Turkey will enter EU
Posted By: Christos
Subject: Do you believe that Turkey will enter EU
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 11:49
| Hi, when do you believe that Turkey will enter EU. Ill Vote maby after 25 years because i think that not even the Turkey really wants to enter and because i think that EU countries except UK dont want really this kind of union. If becomes a deal before the end of 25 years i think that it will be a some kind of "different" union with special rules. |
Replies:
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 12:21
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"Turkey in EU" is certainly a long term project. The expectation of Turkish side is about 2014, though. ------------- |
Posted By: Seljuk
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 13:14
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No
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 13:37
| 2014 is not a long term. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 13:59
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Depends on Turkish goverment's political acts.
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 14:19
Since there's a technical impossibility of Turkey's membership before 2014, 2014 could only be the shortest term.  ------------- |
Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 14:26
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Why does Turkey want to be in the EU? The impression I get is that they don't really like Europeans and consider Turkey the center of the universe, so why would such a superior entity need the EU?
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 14:37
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Hellios
Callisto Guatelli Pasha wouldnt agree with that assesment.
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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 14:47
Even I find the statement disagreeable. 
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Posted By: Christos
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 15:07
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"Why does Turkey want to be in the EU? The impression I get is that they don't really like Europeans and consider Turkey the center of the universe, so why would such a superior entity need the EU?"
Perhaps because its economy collapsing and is in social decline?
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 16:16
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Turkey economy is expanding very fast and strongly.Nobody is investing his money to a collapsing economy.
I think helios comment is very succesful.Turkey has to realize first if they want to join E.U. and realize what E.U. means.
In reality the states that are members of E.U. give some of their power to the E.U. "goverment".Is Turkish goverment ready to share their power with E.U.?
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Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 20:49
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I think the reason Turkey may not enter EU is because EU may become irrelevant in the next ten years. Moribund economy, rampant bureaucracy, lack of leadership.
EU was established by France's political leadership and bankrolled by Germany. The only economies with a pulse seem to be British and Irish these days. Nobody has a vision or political clout to lead, |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 23-Dec-2006 at 21:20
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its a long term project to the benefit of the region and the turks. It wont happen while the their military has any political power/influence, hence why i emphasize the long term view. Economy. The Turkish economy is going gang busters (albeit from a low base) partly at least, because of the EU talks. The prospects of a country that is relatively large and more importantly cheap (or as a capitalist would say 'competitive') within context of the EU membership is always compelling for a investor. If the talks start to falter or fail, this same foreign direct Investment (FDI) that has poured into the country will go some where else just as quickly, such is nature of international capital. Most other eastern European countries that have joined the EU also have enjoyed the same boom times and investments. I would think that they would benefit more if turkey doesn't join which would mean they remain the most 'competitive' in terms of wages and property. ------------- 
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Posted By: eaglecap
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 00:03
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I know one thing is they need to allow freedom of religion. Even though freedom of religion is in the Turkish constitution, try passing out a Bible. I was talking to a Turkish women in her store and asking about her protestant beliefs and she turned to me and went shhhhhh!!!
She told me they do not have freedom of religion like in America. Turkey could lose freedoms as well. The Turkish government still allows the private ownership of hand guns so would that end with EU membership???? Under the codex vitamins are heavily restricted in Europe but Turkey today has the same freedoms that Americans enjoy when it comes to vitamins and other nutritional supports. The dose of vitamins I take are illegal in EU countries. Would Turkey also lose this freedom? ------------- Λοιπόν, αδελφοί και οι συμπολίτες και οι στρατιώτες, να θυμάστε αυτό ώστε μνημόσυνο σας, φήμη και ελευθερία σας θα ε |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 00:56
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Economically, Turkey is already a de facto member of the EU as there is a complete freedom of movement of goods. The only thing that is missing if freedom of movement of labour, but that is unlikely to happen even if Turkey joins. Politically, Turkey is unlikely to ever join, because first of all it is not in the interest of the Franco-German core to let a populous Muslim country enter, and second of all Turks are becoming increasing nationalistic and unwilling to relinquish any sovereignty to the EU. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 01:10
Economic collapse? Turkey is the fastest growing economy in Europe with growth rates averaging 7% for the past few years. Social decline? Today Turkey is more democratic than it has ever been in its history. The Turkish government pursues EU membership mainly for the following reasons: 1. Eu membership would provide guarantees for the Turkish state in the volatile Middle East. 2. Stability in the economy which is overly dependent on speculative short term capital. 3. European aid to improve the infrastructure. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 05:53
Are you a comedian? ------------- |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 11:26
So basically, the government wasnts to use EU to get rich and strong and then drop it? ------------- |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2006 at 11:47
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The Turks should forget about it.
Never gonna happen. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2006 at 03:06
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In reality the states that are members of E.U. give some of their power to the E.U. "goverment".Is Turkish goverment ready to share their power with E.U.?
Absolutely not. Sharing power with EU is stupidy. Specially about international politics. EU is like a lazy giant. She have enough power, but not have enough motivation for using her power.
With a such laziness, You cannot survive at middle east.
The Turks should forget about it.
Never gonna happen. well, important thing is not to enter EU.(Realy, how many turks care to be european?)
But, using EU, as a tool, for economic growth and having more democracy.
Maybe after 10-15 year, we wont need EU, but now we need it.
I should also say, what we gave EU? We gave almost nothing except some words.
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Posted By: Sock Puppet
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2006 at 05:27
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At the moment Europe is in Europe, has European concerns and has a border with Turkey.
If Turkey joins, it is in Europe and the Middle, has European and middle eastern concerns and has a border with Iran, Iraq and Syria.
With this the EU could no-longer maintain a pitiful military in comparison to its wealth, no-longer ignore middle eastern politics and would have to adopt a policy towards its 3 new neighbors.
What a headache.
How stupid does a country have to be, when someone says 'you've got 2 choices, Iraq, Iran and Syria as you neighbors or not as your neighbors?' and the politicians say yes.
------------- When in Rome do as the Romans do, is not good advice when visiting an Italian public toilet. |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2006 at 12:00
I agree with you very good comment
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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2006 at 12:06
How exactly would saying 'no' make their neighbors stop being neighbors?
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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 25-Dec-2006 at 14:49
Hell yeah,i am not learning Turkish for nothing!
------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Sock Puppet
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 03:11
If EU politicos say 'no' to Turkey joining they don't get 3 undesirable neighbors. ------------- When in Rome do as the Romans do, is not good advice when visiting an Italian public toilet. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 03:22
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undesirable neighbors.
hmmm, so what is western world doing at middle east? If They dont want to interfere them. I should also say, Turkey is almost zero need against these countries.
Anyway, wanna look world map? how many country do you see between central asia kafkas and europea? It is easy for EU, accept Turkey or russia.
Other wise, no connection too central asia, kafkas. Prefer russia? They are christian and white too.
Turkey need EU for her inner-politics. EU need Turkey for international politics(After all,EU just created problem for Turkey at international politics.)
Just think, who need other more..
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 09:51
| It will try all tactics & trics to get into it. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 13:03
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The road to the EU is more important than actually joining it for Turkey, it's not going to realistically join today due to lack of EU foresight by some narrow-minded inward looking increasingly paranoid members. However, in 10-15 years if it carries on with these reforms and growth it won't want to join the EU, like the UK it will probobly see it as a hinderance but not cut all ties and use it when necessary.
EU is missing out on alot of opportunities which Britain, Israel and to some extent U.S is capitalising on, in 15-20 years Turkey will be along with Russia an energy-hub transporting it to the West, being a stable, increasingly democratising, secular yet muslim country it would be disasterous for the EU to loose Turkey but the way it's going it has already lost the people and is going the right way to loosing the government aswell. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 15:02
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Lossing Turkey is a little nonsense. How will Europea lost Turkey?
Like kafkas and middle east, balkan is inside of our interest range. So Turkey interest at Europea would continue. If our interest goes with EU, we will help them. If our interest is against each other, we will be against to EU.
If we enter EU, we will fight inside of EU. If we wont enter EU, We will fight EU with out side of EU.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 15:14
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How? its not nonsense its logic, Turkey is jeopradising national interests because of this idea that it's going to be in the EU. It would be far more logical to build up ties, relations, trade and invest in the Balkans, Middle East, Caucauses, Central Asia, Russia.
Today Turkey has economic incentives to gain from joining the EU, if the EU allowed Turkey entry today it could mould, control and influence alot more. However, in 15-20 years if Turkey carries on its reforms and economic growth and it's not a part of the EU, it won't be too interested in the EU, EU won't have much bargaining tool's and Turkey could become a problem in that it could start calling the shots and making the demands, which would have not been a issue if EU had made Turkey a member in this era. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 15:27
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Allies? Russia? we are competing with russia about energy politics. (And thanks God, EU and USA is at our side.)
Balkans is already lost to EU, every country want to enter EU. Our only hope is stupidy of EU. Most probably, They will not accept macedonia, albania, serbia and Bosna.(Or I hope.)
Our relation with middle east? It is almost zero. we just ignore middle east. It is sad but reality. We cannot delete 100 years of ignorence at one day.
Central asia is under Russia hegomony and at Caucauses, we are competing with russia and iran.
can we change our allience? Yeah we can change, russia and iran would accept us, but what is our benefit?
I should also add, Turkey wont want anything from EU. (except money.)
EU will want a lot thing from Turkey. As I said before, even If we are in the EU, We will refuse If their wishes are against our interest.(Just look at Cyprus politics.)
Maybe EU can tame us,So we can accept some EU wish that does harm as a little but I dont think so.
Of course, in long term, allience can change. But in short term,(20-30 year) EU will not lost Turkey.
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Posted By: Hellios
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 16:01
The hopes expressed by Bulldog seem more constructive.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 26-Dec-2006 at 16:43
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Mortaza
Allies? Russia? we are competing with russia about energy politics. (And thanks God, EU and USA is at our side.) You have a very linear view of geo-pollitcs/strategy. Russia is a major target for the growing Turkish business sector, they are investing, setting up trade links and trading. Russia have a number of plans, Russian Nationalist, or better relations with neighbours, or even wilder one's like Slavic-Turkic economic partnership's Nothing is black and white, to get a better outlook thinking in multicolour would be better advised you get to look at every issue in more depth. EU and U.S arn't best of buddies, UK and U.S have great relations but Western and Middle Europe? Its in U.S interests to support Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia also the Central Asian Turkic states as a counter-weight against percieved Russian ambitions, just like it is to support Kurdish aspirations in Iran to cause Iran problems. It boils down to interests. Mortaza Balkans is already lost to EU, every country want to enter EU. Our only hope is stupidy of EU. Most probably, They will not accept macedonia, albania, serbia and Bosna.(Or I hope.) What do you mean? lost? game over? its not a video game and the Balkan countries will do what's in their interests unless some have puppet rulers. Balkan state's need to co-operate with each other. If you follow Turkish enterprise you should know that they invest alot in the Balkans, especially Albania, Romania, Bosnia, Moldova. Recently Greek and Turkish businesses have been co-operating more and both are benefiting. Its not in Turkey or Greece's interests to have bad relations with each other, neither benefits, sure maybe some short term pollitical goals but in the long term? both loose, why? it bottles down to economics, the two are neighbours and together control the Aegean, if they worked together instead of against each other they could both capitilise on what they have. Only one's who benefit from Greek-Turk problems is Weapon's Dealers, the EU using Greeks as a pollitical tool and people who don't want the area to prosper. Our relation with middle east? It is almost zero. we just ignore middle east. It is sad but reality. We cannot delete 100 years of ignorence at one day. I stated that Turkey should boost relations in the middle-east, this government seems to be doing so, plus it has some pretty big deals with Israel. Central asia is under Russia hegomony and at Caucauses, we are competing with russia and iran. When's the last time you visited Central Asia? it really depends where you go but it's a key area for building strong relations. Pipelines will seal the Caucauses, its not just B-T-C, there are many pipelines now which have been agreed on. can we change our allience? Yeah we can change, russia and iran would accept us, but what is our benefit? Think Global, were living in a ever shrinking world, there is Pakistan, India, South East Asia, Latin America, North America, Africa etc you can invest where-ever you like, whichever has the best returns. You shouldn't be Fixated with thinking EU is the only option in the world. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2006 at 09:01
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You have a very linear view of geo-pollitcs/strategy. Russia is a major target for the growing Turkish business sector, they are investing, setting up trade links and trading. Russia have a number of plans, Russian Nationalist, or better relations with neighbours, or even wilder one's like Slavic-Turkic economic partnership's
Trusting russia for trade? I trust greece much. Russian mentality will use their trade power against us. I should also add, russia is a small market with compared EU.
Slavic turkic partnership? Yes,wild dreams.
EU and U.S arn't best of buddies, UK and U.S have great relations but Western and Middle Europe?
Not so much bad, specially germany is pro-usa. If you ask me, except france, there is not a major objection to USA. I should add, france is not one of big powers.
Its in U.S interests to support Turkey, Azerbaijan, Georgia also the Central Asian Turkic states as a counter-weight against percieved Russian ambitions, just like it is to support Kurdish aspirations in Iran to cause Iran problems.
Yep, but most of USA support benefit Turkey. Infact I dont see any reason to switch our allience. Russia(Just look at what they are doing ROA) treat their allies worse than USA.
What do you mean? lost? game over? its not a video game and the Balkan countries will do what's in their interests unless some have puppet rulers.
And their interest lie at EU. do you know any balkan country who dont want EU? For short term, EU is biggest power at balkan.
Balkan state's need to co-operate with each other.
yeah, just tell them this.
the EU using Greeks as a pollitical tool and people who don't want the area to prosper.
are you naive or blind? It is greeks who are using EU. EU did not created problem between greece and Turkey. greece and ROC created problem between EU and Turkey. Be realist.
You are like polyanna. Friendly russia, friendly greece, friendly balcan states, friendly iran, friendly middle east. This does not make much sense.
Sorry, USA, UK or Western EU is absolutely less dangerous than, Russia,iran, greece or some of middle east or balcan countries.
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Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2006 at 09:27
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Trusting russia for trade? I trust greece much. Russian mentality
will use their trade power against us. I should also add, russia is a
small market with compared EU.
Slavic turkic partnership? Yes,wild dreams.
We trust already.Look at Turkish construction companies and gas. Turkey today has almost all its foreign relations with EU.For what?We always complain about Armenian diaspora.What about Turkish people(not all Turks) on earth? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_diaspora - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_diaspora Murtaza I agree with you about EU, but -know your support on akp- it is AKP government's Turkey who behaves as a needy third world country instead of using its potential. (btw -of course this "needy politics" hava a past, not only akp is guilty.) ------------- |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 27-Dec-2006 at 10:41
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AKP leader's are very smart and I think they deserve a little credit, they successfully shifted mainstream Turkish opinion against the EU. The way they did this was by going ahead, doing all the reforms which EU didn't expect, even making concessions on Cyprus. But what they proved is that, what-ever happens Turkey will not be accepted into the EU, it opened people's eyes. Plus the closer Turkey gets the more wild and ridiculous the reasons for not letting her in get, they see countries like France getting desperate and messing about making pollitics out of history. There told Turkey has a different "culture", well what about Greece, Spain, Sweeden their poles apart culturally. Basically what is happening is that public opinion of EU keeps getting lower and lower so people want alternatives and so does the state need them. So we see Turkey slowly bridging ties in the middle-east, Turkish companies are in Eastern Europe, Russia, this AKP government ironically has done more for Turkic states pollitical and economic union then previous even more so-called Nationalist government's. It arranged the 10th Turkic summit, has made many deals and these summit's have new life. Personally I think that Mr Gul is very smart and incredibly sneeky I wonder what he's plotting next
In last couple of years Turkey has move forward rapidly, it lifted death penalty, improved human rights, improved economy, scored a goal against EU and Cyprus in international polltics.I'm no fan of AKP but that Gul is a clever dude and works in Turkey's interests more than the current opposition who just made a mess of things. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Semis of Arierep
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 08:21
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The thing about Turkey in my point of view is the fallowing:
-First the Turks are not part of Europe they only have Constantinople. And this presents a new discution: where the borders of Europe stop.
-Second they allow the death penalty.
-Third the muslim radicals are growing inside Turkey.
-Fourth this present a serious menace to the stability of Europe.
-Last i defend the fallowing they can have a special relation with Europe with some diferences, like in trade or education perhaps.
-Ah i forget the question of Cyprus ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 09:19
You are clearly misinformed on many of your points.
Cyprus is also in Asia and in fact lies to the east and south of majority of the Turks. The geographic argument does not really cut.
Wrong.
Turkey already has a special relationship with Europe through the free trade agreement. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Dan Carkner
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 09:24
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Third the muslim radicals are growing inside Turkey. "Muslim radicals" are already in every European country, it's this anti-integration policy that helps grow their numbers. |
Posted By: Dan Carkner
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 09:25
| Besides I don't hear anyone using the geographic argument about Turkey being in NATO. Last I checked it was more in Europe than it was in the "North Atlantic".. |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 30-Dec-2006 at 19:46
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The thing about Turkey in my point of view is the fallowing:
-First the Turks are not part of Europe they only have Constantinople. And this presents a new discution: where the borders of Europe stop. -Second they allow the death penalty. -Third the muslim radicals are growing inside Turkey. -Fourth this present a serious menace to the stability of Europe. -Last i defend the fallowing they can have a special relation with Europe with some diferences, like in trade or education perhaps. -Ah i forget the question of Cyprus 1. If your talking about "geography", Turkey has land in Europe the size of some EU states and with populations larger than them. 2. No they don't allow the death penalty. 3. When muslim radicals wern't a threat to the EU they actually allowed them in, looked after them and most hilarious of all "protected" them and would cause media frenzies being sympathetic to these MANIACS while condemning states like Turkey for clamping down on such people and movements. What the hell were Abu Hamza, Omar Bakri and the like doing in Europe huh, who let them in. Muslim radicalsim is a huge problem in the EU and its their own fault, just like they have allowed Pkk and other terrorists in who are now running drug and human rackets, feeding young Europeans with Heroin, prostitutes, a crime wave, human smuggling and organized crime. Don't blame other's for this, we were warned about these people but ignorantly fought we could tame them and use them as a pollitical tool against other countries. 4. What menace? 5. What if they say, sod it, were turning to the East, so-long, now that would de-stabilise the EU. 6. Oh Cyprus, what the next excuse gonna be. Why don't you just admit that you don't want Turkey in the EU because, -They have a "different" culture (ironic in itself, do Spain and Sweeden have the same culture I wonder) -They are muslim -You don't know much about them and fear what you don't know. -Hold some stereotype, bias and prejeduce towards them. However, if people were to speak their minds, they'd just be called racists and there's nothing worse for some people then to be called racist. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: pekau
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 00:47
Why are there two "never' options?? Lol!!  ------------- http://swagbucks.com/refer/Malachi"> 
Join us. |
Posted By: Huncuk
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 14:03
| I vote for never.I don't want to join eu,we are not european we are steppe.I think eu will broke our nationality and make us a west people... |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 31-Dec-2006 at 15:41
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Huncuk, we are not steppe. you are steppe.
Murtaza I agree with you about EU, but -know your support on akp- it is AKP government's Turkey who behaves as a needy third world country instead of using its potential.
I support akp because of inner politic. I should also say, If AKP is to much need for EU, reason is not akp but army.
Sorry, I am totally supporting EU, not because we are european or because we need EU for international politics. Reason is that I dont want to live at a semi-militarist fasist nation. If Army shut up and begin to do what she have to do(finish PKK, We should accept that our army is totally failure about PKK.), I will stop to support EU.
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Posted By: Huncuk
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 02:23
We are eastern,can you denial this?
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 13:04
Central Turkey is a Steppe  ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 13:13
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We are eastern,can you denial this?
we are east of europea, west of asia, north of middle east bla bla.
But we are absolutely not any more nomads or steppe people.
Central Turkey is a Steppe
 Ok, we are a little steppe.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 01-Jan-2007 at 14:01
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-There are Nomad's and people who live Semi-Nomadic lifestyles in Turkey. Even sedentary people, will visit the Yayla in Summer even if its for a few days.
-Central Asia is Steppe so alot of Turkey is Steppe. -Not everyone in Central Asia is Nomadic, many are sedentary or semi-nomadic and live in urban settlements. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: Liudovik_Nemski
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 15:32
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Never,i hope
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Posted By: NikeBG
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 09:32
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The reason not to include Turkey (or Russia) is that it has a too large population, which means that it could have a quite independent policy and won't be as easy to control as f.e. Bulgaria or Romania. Combined with the other factors, I believe that Turkey won't join the EU in the next 30 years, if it joins it at all (after 30 years there might be no EU to join in, so...). As for the public opinion - if I have to be honest, I agree that it's negative mostly due to several factors: - "The Turks are Muslims and Muslims hate Christians (i.e. us) or in the best case don't get along well with us." - "The Turks have a too different and Orientalist culture than ours. Bulgaria and Romania have pushed their luck to the best, but that's about it - no more Oriental states." - "There are a lot of Turks/Muslims in our lands already and they're taking our jobs and only poluting our lands. For the same reason we shouldn't have accepted even Bulgaria and Romania." Plus some other factors in people's thoughts, be they right or wrong. Btw, I'm pretty sure that the Turks have some prejudices towards the Westerners as well. I remember that there was a pretty popular book in Turkey last year (or the one before it) about a war between Turkey and the EU, in which the brave Turks emerge victorious over the Europeans... ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 10:43
| hehe, Infact It is russians who emerged victorious over the europeans, turks are only allies of russian. |
Posted By: NikeBG
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 10:48
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Turkey and Russia - allies?! Now that would be an interesting read indeed!
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 10:51
If these are indeed the reasons why Europeans do not want Turkey in, then I would say Europeans are pretty damn racist. I hope you are wrong.
I do not recall a book on a war with the EU, but there was a book "Metal Storm" if I remember correctly, on a war between America and Turkey, where some Turkish commandos detonate a nuclear bomb in Washington, and than the American president Arnold Scharzeneger responds by nuking several Turkish cities I do not think such fiction books are motivated by anti-western sentiment, they are mostly a backlash on what many Turks perceive to be a threat of American imperialism. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 11:03
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Turkey and Russia - allies?! Now that would be an interesting read indeed!
Yeah, and add it to china attack over main land of USA, and It is not interesting. I finished it just because I payed for it.
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Posted By: NikeBG
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 11:10
Most of the ordinary people in this world are more or less racist and the Europeans are no exception (on the contrary). Of course, I'm sure that not all Europeans think like that and furthermore - not all of them think all these things, at least not consciously. Many might not agree though... ------------- |
Posted By: Huncuk
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 11:35
Most of us don't like Russians.
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Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 14:27
| this is intellectual discussions part. |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 14:29
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Why you dont like russians? ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 14:48
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They kicked our ass hard, and we kicked their ass hard too. (do you hate turks? we kicked your hard ass too.)
I think this guy dont like anyone and he think that we are still living at central asia.
We have not bad feeling for russia, but allience with russia is not a best thing for near future. I should add, our relation with russia is much more better than older times.
Infact my bulgarian friend, You should find another protector.(If you think you need one.)
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Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 14:51
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We already got another protector - EU. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 15:06
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Indeed. Well done.
Anyway, Bulgaria is most peaciful nation at balkan.(She have no problem with any nation.) I dont think you would need any protector at short or middle term.
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Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 16:21
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As soon as possible, I hope. ------------- |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 03-Jan-2007 at 23:50
Things always change over decades depending on the benefits of states. ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: TheDiplomat
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 10:34
who could guess that Bulgaria would ally with Germany in both world wars against her pan-slavic sister, who fought for her independence... ------------- ARDA:The best Turkish diplomat ever! |
Posted By: NikeBG
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 11:07
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Not much surprising - Bulgaria's royal dynasty being of German stock (the Saxe-Coburg-Gota) and having many problems with Russia (which basically tried to rule Bulgaria as its own)...
------------- |
Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 12:22
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And someone in Turkey should remember Turkish-Russian alliance in Independence War. Because of anti-sovietism, it was shown as a "friendship" for years, but USSR's militarical aid was important for Turkish army. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 12:36
| Russia is a bear, becoming ally of her is beneficial. Just If every things goes well. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 12:36
If a country does not have problems with it's neighbours in a governmental level,does not mean it's peacefull or the other way around.Just because Hellas has problems with Turkey or Romania with Hungary ,does not make Hellas,Turkey,Romania and Hungary less peacefull than Bulgaria. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: The Grim Reaper
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 20:19
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Reasons why Turkey should not be a member-state of the European Union: 1. Turkey is a Middle Eastern, Muslim nation (however secular) based on ASIA.
2. The EU is composed of EUROPEAN countries, the majority of whom have a Christian heritage.
3. The EU -and Western Europe in particular - do not wish to be burdened by Turkey's economic woes, i.e. inflation, constant devaluation of its currency.
4. Europeans do not want to allow 70 million-plus Muslim Turks and Kurds free access and entry into Christian Europe.
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 21:42
There are more Turks in Europe now than there are Bulgarians, Greeks or Dutch separately. The Turks are an integral and inseparable part of continental Europe.
Actually you are wrong again. Not all countries in the EU are in Europe (ex. S.Cyprus), and not all countries in Europe are in the EU (ex. Albania).
Western Europe does already have a free trade agreement with Turkey, and benefits from it and so does Turkey. There is a consensus that Turkish membership would be economically beneficial for both sides, that is why even those who are generally against Turkish membership, are strongly in favor of some type of special partnership.
Europe is definitely not Christian. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: think
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 02:02
Why ? Do you have family that you want to smuggle in through Turkey
Well their roots are Christian. Its just these days the old Christian values have dissapeared. If Turkey enters the EU then they will be required to take in refugees. Muslims will flock to Turkey with the intention of being granted access into Europe. Turkey will be used as a gateway to flood the already disintergrating Europe. |
Posted By: Kapikulu
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 08:14
Are those two acquired from a book named "Basic Reasoning for Children" ? ------------- We gave up your happiness Your hope would be enough; we couldn't find neither; we made up sorrows for ourselves; we couldn't be consoled; A Strange Orhan Veli |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 09:18
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Jagatai_Khan
And someone in Turkey should remember Turkish-Russian alliance in Independence War. While they were not enemies the idea that they provided help is a part the longest living myth in Turkey, it was not Russian alliance, it was the Turkic people's and states like the Turkistan Republic which raised an enourmous amount of captiol but needed a safe route to transport the financial help. Lenin agreed to allow safe passage on the railroad in exchange for a cut and so a deal was agreed. Later the Buhara fighters, Eastern Turkistan, Tatar and so on people's came to Turkey in the War, also Pakistani's, Indians and Algerians did help alot.
I admire your honesty, I wish more people could just speak openly. Why isn't Turkey wanted in Europe? They're Turks, who are the Turks? these mystical beings, so close yet so distant, the romantism and beaty of the orient is so attractive yet its so strange that it's also feared and intimating. They came to the walls of Vienna which we can't get over but at the same siege they left us with Coffee, delicious pastries, rugs, fabrics, tents, pavillions and amazing unseen thing's we didn't know about before.
As funny as it sounds alot of people think like this, the uncertainty and unpredicatbility, after all untill recently in the Oxford Dictionary if you searched "Turk" one of the definitions was, "Uncontrollable, Unmanagable, Unruly people"
Turkey isn't wanted because its mainly muslim, it has a large population which is rapidly increasing, the media campaign, the fact that the situation in the EU isn't that rosy, the fear that millions of Turks will enter the EU, the fear they'll try and controll the EU. Basically, fear and paranoia are the primary reasons. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 10:24
You are wrong my friend. 1) Cyprus is in Europe. It always was. 2)The official religious of all the European countries are Cristianity. So Europe is Christian. 3) Indded many Turks are leaving in several European countries especialy in Germany and the they don't have good fame. At least the majority. 4)Europe already exploit Turkey. And Turkey has many loans of low interest in order to build schools (mainly see Sanli Urfa, Erzurum etc) and If the European borders open For Turks Europe is going to have problems. Turkey is going to gain a lot from EU. EU is already gained from Turkey(see Renault, BMW, low cost for labour etc). But only that 5)I don't think that EU has more Turks than Greeks or Dutch. Count again Concluding I don't think that Turkey is going to enter european union. Not because is not worthed etc(I consider Turkey a srong country and I like Turkish people) but because they have TOTALY different culture. Their culture is not European. It is somethiing else. It is Eastern, Asian. Everything from their music, food everything. Even Bulgars have a european influence. Turks...not even close(in order not to be missundestood this might is not bad!!!). ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 10:29
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You must also think about the future of EU and how the organisation will work after a few decades(if still exists).European Union was created as an economical and trade organisation.But now it is becoming something more.EU is turninng into a politicial and social organisation.It begin to work as a normal state,where everybody should be equal.The problem is that democratic and christian values are the foundation of the european union and all of its members..
First Turkey is not a model for democarcy.It has many problems that will stop her entrance in EU.On the other hand the muslim religion is also a problem.There isnt a country in EU where Islam is the main official religion.And how i said the EU is based on christians values.But i think that religion is not the main reason.If we think deep about it we wll realize that the main values of christianity and islam are not so different(of course there are huge differencies in religons). Probably the main problem is the many internal affairs of Turkey,some of the non-democartic features of the country,its problems with a few neihgbouring countries and a few historical issues.But we must not forget that the main thing is the fear of islam in the european society and mainly the fear of european poweres that Turkey may weaken their positions. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Jagatai Khan
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 11:02
I had known Pakistani-Indian and Algerian aid, but I don't know about Turkistan's help.I should read and learn more  Actually I support Turkey's alliance with everyone if we can benefit from it. ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 12:29
Cyprus is geographically a part of the Asian continent, it is merely an extension of the Anatolian peninsula. That is a fact.
Not all European countries are Christian, and therefore the European continent is NOT Christian.
Your sophisticated knowledge and understanding of economics is just impressive. It is true that Turkey is a heavily leveraged country, but most of the loans come from the IMF and the USA, not Europe. And regarding EU aid, Turkey if it ever becomes a member will never receive as much aid as did Greece and Spain back in the good old days.
I said Europe. Europe is not equal to EU. The European part of Turkey alone has more than fifteen million Turks, and within the EU there are at least five million Turks (3 million in Germany, a million in Bulgaria, and the rest in countries like Belgium, Britain boasts a huge number of Turkish Cypriots, etc.). So yes, you can easily count more Turks in continental Europe than Greeks or Dutch.
Even Bulgars have a European influence?! No, my friend, Bulgarians are Europeans, now full EU citiznes, they do not merely have an influence. The way you Greeks advertise your alleged Europeanness to emphasize your supposed superiority to your neighbors is just so funny. It is more reminiscent of a state still jealously aspiring to meet the standards of western Europe, than one that already has. Regarding your erroneous assertions about Turkish culture: from my own experience as a member of a multi-ethnic community in Bulgaria, I can say that Turkish mentality and culture are not that different from those of my Bulgarian neighbors. In fact traditional Bulgarian music, food and dance are far closer to neighboring Balkan states, including Turkey, than they are to the western European equivalents. The Europe I know of was supposed to value diversity, it was not supposed to regard cultural differences as a liability but as a richness. To use cultural distinctions, which in my opinion hardly exist between Turkey and the other Balkans states, in order to prevent Turkish membership is a poor excuse at best. But having said that I do not expect the European masses, most of whom are inherently racist, to overcome their medieval islamophobia any time soon. Thus, I would have to agree that Turkey will not become a member any time soon. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 15:05
| Boring topic, It is sad, we will discuss this topic at least 20 year more. |
Posted By: The Grim Reaper
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 15:44
How is that basic reasoning?
These are fundamental facts and I presented them in a manner that would be easily comprehindible by most readers on this forum -especially those for whom English is not the primary language. Why bother posting essays that no one will have the time to read?
Are you jealous or bitter of my presentation style?
When the E.U., the Papacy, and other figureheads in Europe make those claims, are they using "basic reasoning for children" as well??
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Posted By: The Grim Reaper
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 16:04
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Wishful thinking on your part. Have you forgotten the image of the TERRIBLE TURK held by Europeans, which Bulldog alluded to earlier? Cyprus, Malta, Sicily, and Corsica, all small islands in the Mediterranean have historically been considered and defined as European. Also, is Turkey geographically based in Europe? No, it's in the Middle East, in Asia Minor. Is Turkish a European language? Is Turkish and Muslim culture native to Europe? Or are they native to the Middle East and Central Asia?
Turkey's economic woes are perceived by the EU as being a hindrance and would only lead the devaluation of the Euro.
And, as some others have already stated, Europe doesn't want tens of millions of Muslims from Southwestern Asia flooding a Christian land.
Other than Albania, how many Muslim countries are there in Europe? Kosovo is still a part of Serbia. Bosnia-Herzegovina is secular and only 48% Muslim. One million Muslims in Bulgaria, some 20 million Muslims in Russia (many of them in Tatarstan and the North Caucasus), Ajaria is Muslim, one-half of Abkhazia is Muslim, and there are 12-15 million non-European Muslims in Western Europe. ^^^ That totals about 30 million native European Muslims (excluding the Muslims from the Orient)compare that to about 1.5 billion people of European descent and one can conclude that Europe is clearly, Christian. I do not wish to see Turkey beg, plead, and whore herself to be a part of Christian Europe, the Turks are far too proud for that. Turkey would be better served being a leading member of a TURKIC UNION, or a MUSLIM UNION of the MIDDLE EAST. If I'm not mistaken, doesn't Turkey enjoy "observor status" in the Arab League?
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Posted By: TheGame
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 17:11
| So will the EU also let Albania in? Isnt Albania majority Muslim? (I may be thinking of another close by country). |
Posted By: The Grim Reaper
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 17:36
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Albania (70% Muslim) and Bosnia-Herzegovina (48% Muslim) are potential candidates to become members of the EU.
However, unlike Turkey, which is based in Asia Minor, Albania and Bosnia are both European countries.
I would still prefer to see Turkey as the leader of a Turkic Union or a leading member of a Muslim Union of the Middle East rather than be given this "runaround" at the hands of Western Europe.
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 21:52
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Perikles
Concluding I don't think that Turkey is going to enter european union. Not because is not worthed etc(I consider Turkey a srong country and I like Turkish people) but because they have TOTALY different culture. Now I'm sorry but this is the most absolutely ridiculous excuse I've ever heard, the worst part is, its become something of an accepted thing, oh let me think why shouldn't Turkey be a part hmm now let's not try to come across as racist so hmm yeh that's it their "culture" is different. Could you tell me the cultural similarity between Sweeden and Spain? between Itally and Denmark, between Germany and Greece. I mean let's be realistic, what exactly is European "culture", there isn't a uniform European culture, there is not even a remotely similar European culture. What has England got to do culturally even with close countries like Holland, their culturally worlds apart. I guess you could claim Central Europe as having some cultural continuity, Classical Music tradition, some similar courtly traditions and so on. But other than that the whole notion of "European" culture is a MYTH, there is Itallian, Spanish, Brittish, French culture. No self-respecting Brit would ever accept French culture, no self-repsecting Frenchman would accept German culture so what is this mythical culture some here seem to be banging on about. At least find better reason's than this, it's ridiculous. Greece culturally has more to do with Turkey, Bulgaria then the whole of Europe. If were talking about culture, what is Greece doing in the EU, it doesn't resemble main central Europe at all. Their culture is not European. It is somethiing else. It is Eastern, Asian. Everything from their music, food everything. I guess Greeks should stop eating Dolmades, stop playing Bouziki, listening to Tsiftetelli, dancing Zeybekoz etc then. Even Bulgars have a european influence. Turks...not even close(in order not to be missundestood this might is not bad!!!). Your correct, Turkey isn't similar at all to Central or Western Europe, isn't even close. However, the Balkans? now that's a different story, the Balkans has more in common with the Levant and Turkey then it does with the rest of Europe. GrimR I do not wish to see Turkey beg, plead, and whore herself to be a part of Christian Europe, the Turks are far too proud for that. Turkey would be better served being a leading member of a TURKIC UNION, or a MUSLIM UNION of the MIDDLE EAST. 
That's it, Turkey should just get over it, there never going to be accepted or treated as equals in Europe, they may as well forget about it. Infact if it decided to stop persuing its efforts it would ironically be in a better situation. This time the ball would be in EU's court. It will this time be the EU who doesn't want to loose Turkey it's too risky and could become a huge problem and this is the dilema of the EU. They are stuck, they don't want to say "no" and they don't want to say "yes". Both are too risky, the No option could be catostrophic and one of EU's biggest mistakes and then again so could saying Yes. If Turkey turn away, EU will have to keep them sweet to not push them away and end up causing themselves a problem for the future and a missed historic opportunity. However, the current situation suits EU, as Turkey wants to join, so EU just creates reforms and legislation which they don't think Turkey will accept. The problem today is Turkey actually carried out its reforms so now EU is left with embarrasing reasons to not allow membership. EU will keep making these excuses, when Turkey refuses they won't cut membership they'll ever freeze talks, resume it a year later, decide to resume another couple of months later, wont decide on anything then call more talks, keep delaying, changing the topic and so on. Untill ultimately Turkey turns anti-EU which will cause EU to change it's policy. The current situation is not being governed or dealt with well by the EU. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 03:26
The image of the TERRIBLE Nazis did not prevent Germany from being a member of the EU, did it?
I and my religion are native to the Balkans and Europe, so the answer to your questions is yes.
Actually Muslim Europeans average at around 10% of the EU population.
You are pathetic. The EU does not difine itself as a "Christian" organization, quite the contrary - the constitution explicitly states the secular nature of the union, and all references to religion have been deliberately omitted. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 04:00
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the islamophobia part is just the populist excuse. The real issues AFAIK is the politics involved, the rest is just crumbs for the public to bicker over. The big mentionable political issues for many EU governments are, 1 The very strong US, Israeli and UK alliance 2 The political influence/role of the military in Turkish society. 3 Unresolved stalemates with a couple of her neighbors (which some may connect with the second point) -------------
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Posted By: Majkes
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 04:44
The second argument is wrong as in project of European Constitution people who are now mainly against Turkey joining EU didn't agree to mention that Europe has Christian heritage. That means that for EU Christian heritage doesn't have any meaning. Therefore using argument that Europe is Christian and Turkey is not as an argument against Turkey joining EU is totally wrong and not important.
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Posted By: think
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 04:54
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I think the Europeans just dont want more ethnic ghettoization of their cities. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 05:37
The turks aren't as big a issue as everyone is trying to make out. Each country can control the number of immigrants and have already reserved that right with this applicant. It was never going to be a complete open door until a long way into the future after the membership and i would assume when turkey affluence is raised and others members are comfortable. -------------
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Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 07:32
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The European road of Turkey: 1839 Tanzimat Fermani (First attempt to be westernized): Sultan Mahmud II accepted the superiority of the western achivements and said "The Ottoman Empire must be westernized." Many institutions of the empire -such as the military forces- became westernized. The idea of secularization and full westernization first appeared amongst the Turkish intellectuals including the Young Turks (known as Jeune Turcs, later Ittihatcilar) who were influenced by french positivism.
1908-1918 and Ikinci Mesrutiyet (Democracy in Imperial Turkey): Young Turks brought democracy to Imperial Turkey.
1923-1945 Fully Westernized and Secularized Turkey: With the reforms of Ataturk, who was an ex-member of Young Turks, Turkey became fully westernized. And after full Westernization, Turkey was accepted as a respected member of Western societies.
1952 NATO membership: Turkey entered Western bloc in 1952.
1963 Ankara Agreement: First agreement between Turkey and European Economic Community (Later Called the European Union)
1983 Improving free market in Turkey: Turgut Ozal improved Turkish free market.
1999 Turkey, Official Candidate: Turkey became an official candidate for EU full membership.
1999-2005 The EU Reforms: Turkey reformed her political, economical and legal system entirely to fit the EU criterium.
3 October 2005: The EU started full membership negotiations with Turkey, which means that Turkey has fulfilled the Copenhagen political criteria of the EU.
------------- |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 15:28
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Copenhagen criteria
1. Political: stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities. 2.Economic: existence of a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competitive pressure and market forces within the Union. 3.Acceptance of the Community acquis: ability to take on the obligations of membership, including adherence to the aims of political, economic and monetary union. Well i dont think that Turkey fulfilled the political criteria of Copenhagen As my friend mortaza said Turkey didn t give nothing just promises and took very clever the candidacy to
become full member and is also using the candidacy as a tool for economic growth and having more democracy and who knows after 10 or 15 years maybe Turkey dont need E.U. anymore. |
Posted By: The Grim Reaper
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 15:28
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NAZI Germany was not viewed as foreign by the European peoples, and the NAZI threat to Europe lasted less than a decade. Christian Europe has had, and continues to have an Islamophobic image of the TERRIBLE TURK btw: This is not something I made up, this moniker was applied by the Europeans to the Turks for centuries. There is an entire history spanning some 600-plus years to this moniker, the TERRIBLE TURK, and no doubt, this plays a major role in the mindset of many EU member states in their assessment of what place Turkey and the Turks have in Europe.
Cyprus was first settled by the Greeks, and has largely maintained a Hellenistic, European, and Christian heritage.
Oh really? Are you a Pomak? Are you an Ajar? Are you an Abhkaz? Are you a Chechen? Or are you a Turk? Are the Turks native to Europe? Are they European or is does their ancestry lie in Central Asia? Are there not detailed historical accounts of Turkish migration to Europe? Is Islam the dominant religion in Europe? Was Islam ever the dominant religion in Europe? Didn't think so.
1. I could care less about Muslims or other non-Europeans flocking to European lands. I am only conveying to you, the fear that many Europeans have. 2. You are an ethnic Turk, and you are not native to Europe. 3. Bosnia-Herzegovina is only 48% Muslim, clearly not a majority. The Sandzak region of Serbia is less than two-thirds Muslim. Kosovo, Albania, and Western Macedonia are predominately Muslim, but are still geographically in Europe, and have a European history that dates further back than their Muslim ancestry. Actually Muslim Europeans average at around 10% of the EU population. Oh really? Pray tell, did you conduct a census of the EU population all by yourself? I would like to see some credible source to back up this absurd claim of yours. http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/geographic/cancerineu/demography/ - http://info.cancerresearchuk.org/cancerstats/geographic/cancerineu/demography/ The total EU population of member states stands at 456 million people. http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/euc/PDFs/Muslims%20in%20Europe%20Folder/7%20Current%20Events%20and%20Issues/Worksheet%20on%20the%20Number%20of%20Muslims%20in%20European%20Countries.pdf - http://www.umich.edu/~iinet/euc/PDFs/Muslims%20in%20Europe%20Folder/7%20Current%20Events%20and%20Issues/Worksheet%20on%20the%20Number%20of%20Muslims%20in%20European%20Countries.pdf The total number of Muslims is estimated at 12 million, although I have heard claims that this may be as high as 15 million. 12/456 * 100 = 2.6% ^^^ Does this come out to 10%??? As I have stated previously, there are 30 million European Muslims in Eastern Europe. The total number of people in the world of European ancestry is approximately 1.5 billion. Here, let me teach you simple mathematics: 30 million/1.5 billion = 2% Two percent of all European persons in the world are of the Muslim confession. A negligible number.
Why am I pathetic? B/c I am a social realist who sees and understands the way the Europeans view the Turks and other Muslims? The EU is not Christian? Officially, no, but its heritage is clearly (a) European and (b) Christian just ask the Pope. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 15:37
Turks live on the Balkans for more than half a millennium. That's long enough for me.
The EU is not a religious organization, so that doesn't matter. In fact, as an atheist I feel quite offended by the (implicit) notion that only Christians can be Europeans.
While that may be true, European governments should combat xenophobia, not make use of it. ------------- |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 15:46
The "heritage" and "culture" are immaterial to the fact that Cyprus is geographically a part of Asia.
I am a Turk and my family has lived here for centuries. And yes I am native to my area. By your logic Hungarians, Fins, Slavs, and the majority of Europe's population are not part of Europe since at some point in history they moved there from Asia, of which there are some detailed historical accounts as well.
Islam has been and still is the dominant religion in parts of Europe.
I am native to my land and I do not care if you call it Europe or not. Stop trying to make me seem like a foreigner on my own land.My forefathers settled here long before yours even set their foots on the American continent, so I can confidently say that I am more native to the Balkans than you can ever dream to be to the American continent.
The history of most European states predates their religious ancestry, that is not unique to Muslims.
Ok but in France Muslims are 10% of the population, although in the other countries the number is substantially lower.
My heritage is not Christian, never has been and never will be, and I do not care what the pope says. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: The Grim Reaper
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 18:22
|
This is just one vital factor in their assessment. There do exist other, and more significant factors, i.e. the Turkish economy and its impact on the EU, the constant devaluation of the Turkish Lira (that is the currency, right?), geographic location (if the EU admits Muslim Turkey, does it then also pave the way for membership for Lebanon, Israel, North African countries, Middle Eastern countries, and Asian countries? Does it cease being the "European" Union?)
Tell that to the Serbs, Croats, Ossetians, Georgians, Greeks, Armenians, Romanians, and Macedonians who still view them as foreign and continue to refer to them as the "TERRIBLE TURK". I agree in that the Turks have played a significant role in the history of Europe, and many citizens of Turkey today, are even descended from Eastern Europeans, but the issue at hand is, that Christian Europe refuses to regard Turkey, and the Turks in this manner.
No, but it is a socio-political economic organization based on Christian principles and bearing a Christian European history far removed from a Muslim Turkish history.
That's not the issue. This is the real world and here, we deal with realities. Sure, we can say that racism, sexism, Islamophobia, homophobia, anti-Semitism, the illicit drug trade, child prostitution, the trafficking of women, and a host of other issues need to be addressed, but they're not being addressed. We must live in reality -and the reality is what I have alluded to -that Christian Europe has never gotten past its fear of the "TERRIBLE TURK". Sure, they've gotten over NAZI Germany, the brutality of the USSR, the age of colonialism in which Western Europe and Russia managed to oppress and massacre tens of millions of non-European, non-Christian peoples, but this particular xenophobia involving the Turks? Well, Europe just can't seem to let that go. No need to blame me, I'm just the messenger here. |
Posted By: The Grim Reaper
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 18:28
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 19:06
Muslims in (continental) Europe are far larger in number than 30 million. And even though they are overall a minority, there are regions of Europe in which Muslims constitute absolute majorities and therefore for so long as these regions are considered a part of Europe, that continent cannot be classified as a Christian one. Yes, Europe may have a Christian majority, but it is not a Christian continent. If you want it to be a Christian continent you better redefine its boundaries so as to exclude these regions.
Apart from the Greeks and the Albanians, none of Europe's population is European in origin. Everybody came from somewhere else. Turks just came a little later than the rest.
The pope and the others in the EU have no right to call me a foreigner on my own land. The land that I live on is my native homeland. I was born here and I will most likely die here. My homeland belongs to me, and I belong to my homeland. I am not a foreigner in my native land, understood? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: The Grim Reaper
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 19:50
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bg_turk, From what I'm gathering, you've taken quite a bit of personal offence to some of my remarks in this thread. Allow me to clarify some things for you:
1. I am not opposed to Turkey's entrance to the EU -especially if it is to the economic benefit of both.
2. I personally view Turkey as a "European" country and the Turks of Europe as being native to that land for a multitude of reasons, i.e. the influence of 600-plus years of Ottoman expansion and rule into Southeastern Europe, centuries of Turkish migration to Europe, Ataturk's Western reforms, and constant Muslim presence in Europe due to Ottoman conquest.
3. I am ONLY conveying the xenophobias that many Europeans -especially elitists- have of allowing 70 million Muslim Turks access to what "THEY" see as "CHRISTIAN EUROPE".
4. It sickens me to see a proud Turkey bend over backwards for these EU elitists.
5. Would Turkey not be better served taking her place as the leader of a Turkic Union or a Muslim Union of the Middle East instead of being forced to "jump through loops" at the behest of some self-serving Europeans?
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Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 20:22
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TheGR
That's not the issue. This is the real world and here, we deal with realities. Sure, we can say that racism, sexism, Islamophobia, homophobia, anti-Semitism, the illicit drug trade, child prostitution, the trafficking of women, and a host of other issues need to be addressed, but they're not being addressed. We must live in reality -and the reality is what I have alluded to -that Christian Europe has never gotten past its fear of the "TERRIBLE TURK". Sure, they've gotten over NAZI Germany, the brutality of the USSR, the age of colonialism in which Western Europe and Russia managed to oppress and massacre tens of millions of non-European, non-Christian peoples, but this particular xenophobia involving the Turks? Well, Europe just can't seem to let that go.  Exactly and that's the irony of it all.
TheGR 1.5 billion European persons There isn't 1.5 billion people in Europe. There is around 400-500 million. Did you mean worldwide? of descent maybe? anyway, it's the current European population who refer to themselves as Europeans. I don't think the Americans of European descent have much love or allegience. The U.S and the UK don't really have much love lust for the EU today and historically nobody in Europe has actually liked each other. TheGR 1. I am not opposed to Turkey's entrance to the EU -especially if it is to the economic benefit of both. This should be the main reason, if it suits the economic and strategic interests of both involved. For some reason, the economic and strategic benefits have been pushed aside and replaced with childish issues. TheGr 2. I personally view Turkey as a "European" country and the Turks of Europe as being native to that land for a multitude of reasons, i.e. the influence of 600-plus years of Ottoman expansion and rule into Southeastern Europe, centuries of Turkish migration to Europe, Ataturk's Western reforms, and constant Muslim presence in Europe due to Ottoman conquest. I don't see Turkey as European at all and don't think it should mean that you can't be a modern technologically advanced country without being so. Infact in my opnion, there is no such thing as a European culture or identity. There is a Brittish, German, French, Itallian etc culture and identity, this idea of a uniform mono-uniformed culture and identity is a figment of the imagination. Culturally, Turkey has similarities with the Southern Balkan area, it has hardly anything in common with Northern Europe but then again neither do the South Balkans. 4. It sickens me to see a proud Turkey bend over backwards for these EU elitists. 5. Would Turkey not be better served taking her place as the leader of a Turkic Union or a Muslim Union of the Middle East instead of being forced to "jump through loops" at the behest of some self-serving Europeans? It would be in Turkey's best interests if she realised that she doesn't need to be a part of anything and instead become an energy hub with good relations with Europe, the Middle East and the Turkic states. An economical and pollitical union between Turkic states would definately be in her interests and also in that of the West especially if they promote democracy, reject extremism and provide a safe energy route countering that of Russia. But ofcoruse its no easy task or one that will occur over night. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 20:39
I see how I have misunderstood you now. Sorry for that. I certainly do not disagree with the idea that many Europeans view the European continents as a Christian one, although I strongly object to my land being called Christian land.
I do not think that opposition to Turkish membership is based on economic reasons, it is mostly for political reasons. If Turkey ever becomes a member it will be the largest country within the EU, and nobody in the EU wants to give Turks taht much of an influence on EU policy making.
It is sickening, but then what choice does Turkey really have? There are no feasible alternatives to EU membership.
Turkey is a secular state, and it cannot enter any Muslim Unions. The Turkic union is unlikely to materialze. Turkey can have no land connection to the rest of the Turkic states, unless Armenia is persuaded to join that Turkic union. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Bulldog
Date Posted: 06-Jan-2007 at 20:59
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Bg_Turk
It is sickening, but then what choice does Turkey really have? There are no feasible alternatives to EU membership. Turkey is a secular state, and it cannot enter any Muslim Unions. The Turkic union is unlikely to materialze. Turkey can have no land connection to the rest of the Turkic states, unless Armenia is persuaded to join that Turkic union. There are many alternatives, there are always alternatives nothing is never "set" in pollitics or pollitical relations. Today were living in globalised world, land connections don't mean anything. We live in a world or E-commerce and M-Commerce, these can be carried out anywhere. Distance is not an issue anymore, UK and U.S are key allies and they have an Ocean between them. A Turkic pollitical and economic union is not an "impossibility", ideally it what be in the Turkic states interests and also in the interests of the U.S, UK and Israel but there are also those against it and it won't be an easy ride. However, steps are being taken which is making it seem more possible. ------------- What we do for ourselves dies with us. What we do for others and the world remains and is immortal. Albert Pine |