Greece only SEE country listed as "Full Democracy"
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Topic: Greece only SEE country listed as "Full Democracy"
Posted By: akritas
Subject: Greece only SEE country listed as "Full Democracy"
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 14:40
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Greece is the only Southeast European (SEE) country included in the group of the most democratic nations in the world, according to a new survey released by the Economist Intelligence Unit (EIU) this week. source: ==============================================================
Well Done to the Greek people.
 Even Greece gain the democracy rule in 1974 the quoted survey confirm how the borth place of democracy won this place.I hope will be in more high place in the next survey figures.
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Replies:
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 14:51
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Your link does not work.
------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 24-Nov-2006 at 15:27
fix it
http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2006/11/24/feature-01 - http://www.setimes.com/cocoon/setimes/xhtml/en_GB/features/setimes/features/2006/11/24/feature-01
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Posted By: NikeBG
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 01:18
| Hey, nice, we're second in SEE! Considering that we were a communist country until 1989... |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 01:39
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"Ranked 83rd, 87th and 88th, respectively, Albania, Bosnia and
Herzegovina and Turkey are in the 30-nation "hybrid regimes" group.
Their overall scores range from 5.91 points for Albania to 5.78 for BiH
and 5.70 for Turkey.
Turkey's lowest mark of 3.75 is for political culture" This tells much about the problems caused in the region. EU is far away. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 13:10
And we will be the first pretty soon. Not long ago, before the communists invaded our country, Bulgaria was the Switzerland of the Balkans. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: mamikon
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 14:47
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does anyone have a link for the economist index?
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 15:10
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2006-20,GGLR:en&q=Economist+Intelligence+Unit - http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&ie=UTF-8&rls=GGLR,GGLR:2006-20,GGLR:en&q=Economist+Intelligence+Unit +
http://www.eiu.com/ - http://www.eiu.com/ -------------
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 15:50
That is true. In Bulgaria one can hardly find graffities like those that one meets in Aegean Macedonia. One might not know greek but words "Tanatos" and "Voulgaroi" are obvious.
They are present in those villages where old bulgarian people are affraid to speak bulgarian language outdoors. But this is by accident of course
 Otherwise Greece in democratic country. I do believe. ------------- . |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 16:11
Is it possible to give us your sources about these conclusions or is just your personal opinion.
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 25-Nov-2006 at 16:21
About grafities? Like this for example:
 Don't get me wrong, Antioxos. Good and bad people are everywhere. But when one starts to compare his nation's democracy with that of their neghbours, there is always a temptation to put a spoon of tan into the tun of honey  ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 01:23
Because the writing of the walls thats not mean the democracy in Greece is not working. This is a cheap nationalistic propaganda Anton
 Do you know who are Stoidis and Lianis? as I see you are Greek speaker Anton.
It depends the honey.Honey from the bees or from vesps? I prefer the first one
I know this survey pain alot of people , kind of people that try to find minorities , past massacres, free speech and other political thinks in order to gratify theirs ego. I prefer the facts from the theories. -------------
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Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 01:44
OK, Greece is a "full democracy", which makes me happy, but that's not
news really. I don't think anybody in their right mind (while being
objective) would say the opposite. What's more important is (we Greeks)
to see where we have problems, which are the flaws in our democracy,
which are the main issues that need improvement and then work on them
in order to make our democracy better and stronger. This hopefully (and
very possibly) will lead to significantly higher quality of life as
well.
Regarding the second issue that you raise, it's very sad if it's true, but as Antioxos said if you make such claims you'd better have some evidence.
The second is about Stoidis, but I don't know this person. ------------- 
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 02:08
http://www.geocities.com/stojangr/transliterating_the_ancient.htm - http://www.geocities.com/stojangr/transliterating_the_ancient.htm
Nikolas Stoidis ....All the similar geocities(bg_turk favour sources) that distrubute this fake propagnda are made of him. Focus in the bottom of the page.
Is a Slavmacedonian, public servant and as about his ethnicity we have these:
- until 1999 was member of Rainbow, FYROMian. His name was Nikolas Stoyanovski
 -1999 since now is Bulgarian Macedonian.His name now is Nikolas Stoyanov
 This is the reason that Greece took the 22nd place.We have public servants to defame Greece, but they pay from the same "un-democratical" country according theirs nationalitic ego. -------------
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Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 02:24
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Congratulations. I see Greece as the role model country for the Balkan states in terms of devolopment and democracy. ------------- |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 03:11
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geez bad graffiti, woopi ------------- 
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 03:50
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My personal opinion is that the Greek state has reduce bureaucracy.which afflict all the Greek citizens.
In the section of civil rights i think that Greek state is among the first in the world.Sometime we say that we have so much freedom that we have to reduce it a few for the benefit of tha majority.For example 200 person demonstrate in the center of Athens and they close the roads.
The conversation that happen this period is to close only one line of the road if they are so few.
"Anton"
"They are present in those villages where old Bulgarian people are afraid to speak Bulgarian language outdoors."
I m expecting your source also about the above because as i know in the Greek Bulgarian borders exist many mixed couples that they live freely and they speak any language they want.
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 05:22
That in most parts of the world is called freedom of speech. Of course, the improvements in the human rights record in Greece are welcome and very good news, and I hope Greece will continue working towards improving the rights of the Turkish minority. But I find it surprising that you boast about being at the top in SEE, a region which has for the better part of its recent history been under the dark legacy of communism. Most of these countries have emerged from totalitarianism just over the last decade, whereas Greece bid goodbye to dictatorship almost three decades ago. That Greece should come at the top among the countries of the former east block is almost self-evident. I would be far more interested in how you compare to the rest of the EU. How do you comment for example, on the fact that countries such as Slovenia and the Czech Republic, which just became members, have a similar HDI to Greece and are about to surpass it in many economic parameters? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 05:45
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So,let leave the Czechs, the Slovenians and the Western Europeans
express their opinion about Greece's progress in democracy and
economical development in this thread. Why suddenly all Balcan members want to criticize again?
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 07:02
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I do not criticize Greece. I posted graffities just because a dude started to compare countries. Which is sad to my opinion. I tried to show him that it is a bit early to be puffed up. Obviously and expectedly he called me nationalist. Antioxos, my source about people that affraid to speak Bulgarian is a movie about them. If you wish I may find a link to it but it is in Bulgarian. Another "source" is my grandma who were there several years ago. ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 07:33
From the nationalistic wall graffities and the sites that usually present us as arguments I prefer to post real sources like the EIU. Actually the only people that was opposite in this survey are the nationaliists.
 So in page 2 the survey quoted:
The Economist Intelligence Unit’s index is based on the view that measures of democracy that reflect the state of political freedoms and civil liberties are not thick enough. They do not encompass sufficiently or at all some features that determine how substantive democracy is or its quality. Freedom is an essential component of democracy, but not sufficient. In existing measures, the elements of political participation and functioning of government are taken into account only in a marginal way.
The Economist Intelligence Unit’s democracy index is based on five categories:
Soon I will post and the Methodology that use (page 8). A example IV Democratic political culture 38. Perceptions of military rule; proportion of the population that would prefer military. 1: Low
0.5: Moderate
0: High
V Civil liberties
44. Is there a free electronic media?
1: Yes
0.5: Pluralistic, but state-controlled media are heavily favoured. One or two private owners dominate the media
0: No
46. Is there freedom of expression and protest (bar only generally accepted restrictions such as banning advocacy of violence)?
1: Yes
0.5: Minority viewpoints are subject to some offi cial harassment. Libel laws restrict heavily scope for free expression
0: No
Is obvious any democratic human realize from any view waht happened in his country by given answer first in hiself and after to the others.Of course the nationalists they dont understand the meaning of the given questions or that this article came from a web site that written in whole Balkan languages.
the dude(aka akritas)
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 07:58
Nobody is interesting to protect the human rights of Muslim pomaks and Roma (citizens of Hellas) from the regime of Ancara. The association of Muslim Roma send a letter to the ambassador of US embassy in Greece Mr Charles P. Ries.According to this letter the Muslim Roma denounce that the majority Muslim Turkish press them to declare that they are turks.They also denounce that the Greek state don't protect them .
As i can conclude there is an effort from the "democratic" Turkish state to assimilate the pomaks and roma.
http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint?q=%EC%EF%F5%F3%EF%F5%EB%EC%E1%ED%EF%E9+%F1%EF%EC%E1&a=&id=69810588 - http://www.enet.gr/online/online_hprint?q=%EC%EF%F5%F3%EF%F5%EB%EC%E1%ED%EF%E9+%F1%EF%EC%E1&a=&id=69810588
I need the help of the other Greek forumers to translate this letter
because i m not so good in translation.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 08:04
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dont worry antioxos, bg_turk use the http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr - http://babelfish.altavista.com/tr in order to translate the Greek texts -------------
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 08:53
Yes, I know akritas, that you prefer to cite nationalistic site "macedonia on the web"
As for the rest part, everything you said is true. And you don't have any reason to believe me and that movie. Especially if you don't want to.
Because democracy is a state of mind not matter of ratings that you posted. In a trully democratic country a single signal like that would lead to long investigation and permanent discussion on a TV. Like in Sweden for example. And nobody there (I mean in Sweden) declares his proudness to be trully democratic country. And moreover do not compare it to Norway and Denmark
I wish to your and my country to reach this level soon or later. ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 09:03
The http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/ - http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/ is a web site that make from Greeks and never present it as source, except if this include any article that I wrote.
[/QUOTE]
Sweden according survey took the 1st place, Norway 4th ,Denmark 5th and Finland 6th for your information.After 10 posts you came in my words that I written in the 1st one.
I hope will be in more high place in the next survey figures.
and your responce
They are present in those villages where old bulgarian people are affraid to speak bulgarian language outdoors
But you answer was graffitties, minorities e.t.c. from a region that you dont know very well.
 FYROMians in the region have
-political partie
-web site
-US Consule protection
but no VOTES
if there are Bulgarians , where are they?
PS
give me time to answer because the forum is to slow after the upgrade.
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 09:19
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Well i agree with your grandma this happen about 70 years ago.
Today almost everybody (at least in Athens) has a connection with bulgarian people for example my best friend wife is from Bulgaria .
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 09:19
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what a pack of lies. What a lies to say that the Greek state did not protect them. If you did not suffer from amnesia when it comes to your human rights violations against Pomaks, you would remember that up until a few years ago you overprotected Pomaks with barbed wire around their villages, locked them up in military areas and required special perrmits from them to exit. Did you lock them up because you were afraid the Turks would assimilate them? And give me a break. Why would a Pomak write to the US ambassador? Who is the US ambassador to help them in the first place? If a Pomak wished to complain against the Turks he would have found a far more sympathetic ear in your shauvinistic president, not the us ambassador. Even nationalist peasants in the countryside don't buy such cheap news of contrafeited letters any more, I am surprised they still make headlines in Greece. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 09:38
It seems it is pointless to discuss anything with you, Akritas.  ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 09:44
At least in Athens, yes. I believe you that situation is getting better. When this problem is solved Greece will be the first in this list posted by Akritas ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:07
No problem they speak other for us and the supposing minorities
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:08
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bg turk
of course you never read my posts because i m never defending the unjustice decision of the Greek state.
Your turkishness dont let you to see the truth that in Turkey governs a revised,diehard and imperialistic regime.
Your turkishness don t allow you to see what really happen in WT today
The Turkish consulate control everything and the Greek state don't react in the name of the good relation with Turkey.
1st Roma wrote to the US ambassador not pomak
2nd US embassy was trying to create minority problems and with this way to press the Greek government when the time is coming and EU is going decide about the obligation of Turkey against EU.
3nd Muslim Roma send this letter to the us embassy telling them that they have to protect them also not only the Muslim Turkish minority and protect them from the Turkish consulate.
If all these are lies then you have problem to see the truth i cannot do nothing only to suggest you to open your horizons because human rights is for everybody the same.
i m the first that i criticize the Greek state for the unjustice decision and the violation of human rights i don't feel obligate to defending the Greek state .
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:15
well done Antioxos, you said it all as about the supposing minorities issue in Greece and the efforts of the USA,
As the essay quoted in the beggining.....
There is no consensus on how to measure democracy,defi nitions of democracy are contested and there is an ongoing lively debate on the subject. The issue is not only of academic interest.
For example, although democracy- promotion is high on the list of American foreign-policy priorities, there is no consensus within the American government on what constitutes a democracy.
As one observer recently put it, “the world’s only superpower is rhetorically and militarily promoting a political system that remains undefi ned—and it is staking its credibility and treasure on that pursuit” (Horowitz, 2006, p 114). Is known the US policy in the region dear neighboors
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:16
My fellow Anton dont try to change the meaning of my words."At least in Athens almost everybody has contact with the Bulgarian people.i think i made it clear."
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:22
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Antioxos, tell me one thing. Do you deny the existance of the problem with Turkish and Bulgarian minorities in Greece? If you do not deny it, what is the reason as an excuse to point that you neghbours are not better or may be even worse? Do you give a damn how good or bad are they? Are you proud of the comparison of you nation achievements with that of Turkey, Bulgaria, Republic of Macedonia and Albania or you are proud of just achievements of your nation itself?
I ask because I never understood the reason to point to others and say like kids that "they do the same so why don't punish them as well"? ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:33
Antioxos, I understood you correctly I just didn't agree with you. Graffities are not made 70 years ago and people are still affraid to speak Bulgarian in some places. This is the problem that cannot exist in trully democratic state and needs thinking of everybody. Some children may stupidely repeat what they heard on TV about the number of votes in Aegean Macedonia but if one sometimes switch on his gray cells he would easely reallise that the best way to solve the problem is not to hide it but do the opposite -- discuss it everywhere. Until it is solved. And please don't try to pursuade me in things that you don't believe yourself (I mean that problems with minorities in Greece do not exist). ------------- . |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:42
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1st Anton could you give some more information about the "Bulgarian minority " in Greece from independed sources please.
Till now i knew unofficial about "Fyromians" ,minority official about Muslim minority.First time i read about Bulgarian minority maybe you are refer the period 1940-1945.
2nd I m not compare Greek state with nobody i try to criticize the Greek state to become better and serve better their citizen.i only criticized the Turkish state because
a.the Turkish state wants to create conditions for new Cyprus in WT and
B.threaten military the Greek state.
Finally i feel very closed to the Bulgarian people because i have every day contact with bulgarian people and i enjoy this contact.
"I ask because I never understood the reason to point to others and say like kids that "they do the same so why don't punish them as well"?"
Can you point me please where did i wrote these. |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:58
Could you tell us what do you mean?
"the number of votes in Aegean Macedonia"
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 10:59
------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 11:13
I am talking about the argument that I met several times in this forum that bulgarians and macedonians in Greece are not many in number since their party didn't get many votes. Look for example Akrita's post in this thread. ------------- . |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 11:16
All I see is that in Turkey governs a "softly" Islamic democratic government that is kissing EU ass at every opportunity.
It is not your fault really that you believe all this cheap propaganda that the Greek TV is spewing all around. The Turkish consulate controls everything in WT, ha?
Who gives a Gypsy the right to speak in the name of all Pomaks then?
Things do often have simpler explanations. Stop seeing conspiracies behind every US move. US human rights organizations regularly criticize countries on their minority records.
I can imagine Romas seeking refuge in the US consulate because of the opression of the Turkish consulate against them. I do not know whether Romas need protection in Thrace from the Turkish counsulate, probably they do. Glad you are writing to the US embassy to ask for that. But just to clarify things here - are we talking about those same Roma whose cartbox houses your government tore down, who you chased out of the streets of Athens and hid from the objectives during the Olybic games, and whom Nikos Papadimas was complaining of not being able to paint in white? ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 11:20
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My fellow Anton there are independed sources like greek helsinki http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/ - http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/
Anton do you know if exist greek minority in Bulgaria?
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 11:25
I met a Greek student in Britain last year. He was from Solun, and he mentioned that his grandmother could speak Bulgarian, but was ashmed to do so, because of the stigma associated with the language. And I do not think he was lying. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 11:47
 My dear fellow Antioxos, I remember that bg_turk posted some sort of that independent sources in thread about Bulgaria in WW1 and somebody wanted him reports from Greek government. So what is the reason to search for those independent sources if people do not believe them just because they don't want to??? I sent you the movie link by pm that is only thing/source I have now. As I said you have all rights not to believe this. ------------- . |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 11:50
1st i m not watching TV (my wife is begging me to watch together
)2nd i suggest don't believe anything that spread the Turkish chanels
make your own research i believe that you are person if you search something you ll find the truth (and you ll open you horizons)
Who gives a Gypsy the right to speak in the name of all Pomaks then?[/quote] Well i see here the Roma became Gypsy and of course they don t have no rights only the turks have rights and must represent them.
You don t accept of course that the minority in Greece consist from
Turks Pomaks and Roma You follow the bright guideline of democrats in Ancara who say that only Turkish minority exist in Greece.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 11:52
This is a racist quote, and you are racist!!!The man identify as Roma Muslim and not Pomak.And who gives you the right to talk for the Pomaks? and dont tell me that have Pomak origin, because any Turk that I met in the net has Pomak origin!!!!!!
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 12:11
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Anton i respect your opinion about the "Bulgarian minority" in Greece I would like to remind you my question if does exist Greek minority in Bulgaria? |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 12:22
I used the term Gypsy as merely an ethnic descriptor, as I would Turk, Greek, Bulgarian etc, as this is how most ethnic Gypsies call themselves. If you consider calling someone a Gypsy to be an insult then it is obvious who the real racist is. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 12:39
| My fellow bg turk , n Greece Roma identify themselves as Roma or tzigane . If you call them gipsy you insult them. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 12:45
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bg_turk except antioxos answer the man identify as Roma Muslim and represent 20.000 Roma Muslims in Thrace.And finally dear respect Kemal signature that present the minority as Muslim and not Turkish.!!! -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 12:48
Gypsy is the English word for "tsiganin". ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 13:01
| As I know from my bulgarian friends they live thousand of roma in bulgaria and they also dont like to call them gipsy.i dont about the roma in Turkey if they do like to call them gipsy. |
Posted By: Brainstorm
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 14:35
That's the difference. In neighboring countries u can be arrested if u speak another language. In Greece the grandma just didnt want to be considered as a non-greek,and so she chooses not to speak it. That is what the article was saying in brief. It s called higher lever of political rights. Goodnight ,and dream a better future for your countries. |
Posted By: Krum
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 14:53
I dont know how to call it.Is it a minority or something else,but in Greece there are many bulgarian emmigrants.Bulgarian sources say that there are about 200 000 bulgarians in greece.If you want call it a minority.These went to Greece for job and a better life.On the other hand greeks are not interested in coming in Bulgaria. In fact i have a greek neighbour and he is the only one i know. ------------- It is only the dead who have seen the end of war. Plato |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 15:37
Oh, sorry, I didn't see it. There are some Greeks in sea cities, I heard about Greek villages in Strandzha and Rodopi, and Karakatzani of course. So, the unswer is yes, it exist. I don't know the number, but it definitely exist. ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 15:47
I understand that it is a shame to speak barbarian slavonic language in democtratical and educated Greece but the problem is that there is no difference here. Initially people who spoke barbarian slavonic language were killed and nowadays the are still affraid to do so. This is not "just absence of wish to be considered as non-greek". I am amazed how simply some people explain difficulties by false superiority of their culture over that of their neighbours. ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 16:01
Hm, strange post for a person who call Slavs "slav(e)s" and like to post in a nationalistic site forum. IMHO  ------------- . |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 26-Nov-2006 at 16:32
The Karakatzhani are Greek?! I never knew that. When I was in Ahtopol on the Black Sea, we met an old Bulgarian lady who told us stories about the history of the town, and how there used to live Greeks there, but they supposedly "left" at some point. Other than that I haven't met any Greeks in Bulgaria. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 06:20
first of all there is a difference between racism and nationalism Nationalism is love of your country,people. Some times because of the stupid people who they become violent towards others nationalism is became soemthing bad Racism is feel superior towards other races. secondly in Greece the only people they speak slavic is the immigrants from the slavic balkan countries. And yes for your own dissapointment they can speak freely their languiage without no problem. But for once more i say that they are immigrants. They came from a less developed country like Bulgaria, Bosnia, Albania and they can speak their language. The people fo the above countries born in Greece they prefer speaking Greek in order to communicate with the majority of the people. I stheir choice. And as far as i know THERE IS NO TURKIC MINORITY IN GREECE. Unless the priviledge of muslin is only for Turks. In Greece we have Greeks Orthodox and Greeks Muslins. Is that clear? No if you have any problem with that it is not our businees. Go to see a doctor. This minority is recognised from UN. It is so simple. ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 07:06
------------- . |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 07:09
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Way To Go Greece!!! As far as everybody there is happy...thats perfect isnt it? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 08:16
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Perikles just for your help. Racism
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Racism - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Racism
Nationalism
1. Devotion to the interests or culture of one's nation.
2. The belief that nations will benefit from acting independently rather than collectively, emphasizing national rather than international goals.
3. Aspirations for national independence in a country under foreign domination.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nationalism - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nationalism
Anyone can realize very well where from above terms belong as personnality.Except from the person that is racist ot nationalist and do not realize why the other call him with this way.
As is in Greece we say "ta polla logia einai ftohia"=often words are poorness. -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 10:09
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Nationalism is the last refuge of the scoundrel. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 12:05
the right quote is .........Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel....as Samuel Jhonson said when critisized the French culture.!!!! Of course bg_turk except the Greeks lately and the French are your belove subject.
Personaly I prefer Orwell......nationalism is power hunger tempered by self-deception.
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Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 23:49
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PAtriotism and Nationalism are not bad from default. We consider them bad because of some ultra fanatics. I personally don't consider insult if someone call me nationalist or patriotism. I love my country. But i am not blind. It is a fact that Greece is by far one of the most democratic and open minded countries not only in the region but in Europe.Especially with immigrants. We have shown great tolerance even though we weren't used to see immigrants walking on the streets and heaing foreign languages.
And i want to tell a story. I was teaching in a public school and i had in my class a sudent from Albania. I was writing something in the blackboad and suddently i heard quarrels. I saw the Albanian fighting with a greek student. I asked what was thereasin and the Albanian boy told me that the greek call him names. I asked how he called him and told me " George called me Albanian(Albane)". Then I asked so what? you can call him Greek. You are Albanian why you have been insulted,and after the class i punished the Greek boy, because i realize his attitude was insulted. I don't think that in a similar fact in other country this would happen. I mean that most likely(from my exprience) the things would have been different. ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 01:00
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No doubts, as Greece is the oldest democracy in Europe.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 01:45
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Nationalism isn't a good thing by default, guys. It's considered to be bad because of its nature. Do love the world and people living in it. Don't feel any emotional thing towards a political thing, such as "Nation." ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 02:32
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Nationalism is not as bad as fanatic propogation of religion, though.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 03:04
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Religious fanatism is even worse, for sure, Vivek Sharma. ------------- |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 03:16
| I think It is not, You can convert, but you cannot change your race. |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 03:22
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Racism is the worst, for sure, Mortaza. ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 03:35
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A combination of both is the ultimate deadly terror, Hidden Face.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 04:05
greece became a nation in its current form after1821, you can find older democracies in europe. -------------
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 04:38
Check your knowledge about history. You need to brush up. You have taken a greek avtar, i though you would have knowledge of it. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 04:59
athens isnt greece. Other wise we can also claim the very socialist system of the spartans or maybe the theocratic east romans -------------
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Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 13:50
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Also Athens is a horrible representative of democracy. They didn't allow women to vote, or slaves, resident foreigner's were also disallowed, as well as debtors and children of debtors.
Heck they also voted people to death on several occasions. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 16:46
Correct me if I am wrong, but in ancient Greece those who had rights to vote spent much more time studying what is needed to rule the city. Thus, they had more clear idea what should be done and who can do it better. Nowadays people don't have much time and/or attitude to read all these programs of every party and basically do not have even enough knowledge in economy and internal and international politics (at least in my case). Thus, in Ancient Greece democracy was, sort of speak, more effective. I might be wrong, of course. ------------- . |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 20:56
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In whatever form it was, it was still a democracy. Not that today's democracy is more effective than that.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: The Hidden Face
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 00:02
That combination must be the Grey Wolves. ------------- |
Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 03:33
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first of all AThnes was Greece. Like Pella was Greece and Sparta and Thebes etc.
Second Athens was the first democratic state ever. In addition in Athens the democracy was WORKING. Nowdays e don't have democracy. It is democracy only in name. That's for sure. ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |
Posted By: Mortaza
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 03:54
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In addition in Athens the democracy was WORKING. Nowdays e don't have democracy. It is democracy only in name. That's for sure.
are you serious? want to tell,Athen had better democracy than now?
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 20:47
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In some ways maybe.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 00:40
i orginally ment continouse democray which would start from after junta. athens and its history as well as everything else (sparta, pella, etc) are a part of greece not the whole defining thing. -------------
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Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 06:59
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In that case I will agree. with you.
And only one remark. All the ancient cities have contribute to Greece take an identity. The cities where not considered one country but they behaved like one nation. ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |
Posted By: JanusRook
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 09:38
I've read that the only reasons Greek voters were able to dedicate so much time to studying issues is because of the relatively large population of slaves in Athens at the time. Athens was one of the first slave-trading colonial nations, centuries before Portugal, Spain and England.
By that method in the US only the CEO's of businesses (from large corporations to mom-and-pop operations) would be voting. ------------- Economic Communist, Political Progressive, Social Conservative. Unless otherwise noted source is wiki. |
Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 11:26
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Direct democracy was first experimented with in the ancient Athenian democracy of ancient The restrictive conditions for citizenship in Athenian democracy (only male citizens could participate) and the small size (population about 300,000) of the Athenian city-state minimized the logistical difficulties inherent to this form of government The most modern good example is Also many kind of initiative can amend change of a law. Especially Swiss municipalities enjoy a considerable amount of autonomy and discretion. They have the advantage that more than half off them (municipalities) they have fewer than 1000 inhabitant. |
Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 13:47
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Hellas is indeed one of the most democratic States in the Balkans and in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea.Its still has many problems,but they do not minimize the fact that it is very democratic.All parties that earn votes can enter the Parliament.There is great political diversity:The Hellenic Communist Party is the third strongest party in the country,while far right or rightist parties such as LAOS are voted by a significant part of the electorate.Also,there is the European Left,SYNASPISMOS,whose political power is similar to that of LAOS (4th place). The major political Parties are the following: 1.Nea Demokratia:Central-Right,Libertanian 2.PASOK:Socialist 3.KKE:Hellenic Communistic Party 4.LAOS :rightist and extreme rightist-SYNASPISMOS :European Left N.D.,PASOK,KKE and SYNASPISMOS are the Parties who managed to enter the Hellenic Parliament during the last national elections.LAOS is out of the Parliament. Also,the Muslim minority in Thrace is represented in the Hellenic Parliament.The Roma have their own representative too,who is a in the Party of Nea Demokratia,current goverment.I do not know whether he got elected in the last elections,though. The majority of the Hellenic citizens are Christian Orthodox,but there are also Muslims (Sunni,Shia),Hinduists from India,Catholics,Jews,Protenstants etc,who are free to worshipp their religion. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 15:19
If I had to answer that question i say yes cause I've had relatives in Bulgaria. That ofcourse doesn't mean anything. Just that everyone can be everywhere in the balcans. -------------  
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 15:30
Yeah. This was a bright comment in all this negativity. Their story is really really nice. They were probably known as the peacefull aperandoi tribe of the Agrafa mountains in ancient times. They were always isolated until they became nomads and spread themselves all over balcans. Our stories about vixens, deamons and other paraphysical phenomenas come from their legends. Their villages in their original homeland remind of romantic tribal times thousands years ago. They do have a primitive way of life and they speak a primitive dialect. I'm gonna collect my material about them soon and post it. They have a really nice "back to the nature" history. -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2006 at 16:28
Obviously, there is Greek minority in Bulgaria. ------------- . |
Posted By: cavalry4ever
Date Posted: 02-Jan-2007 at 12:09
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I would like to add few thoughts to this forum. Greek democracy was first attempt at the representative governement and it did not work that well. After all, democratic Athens was conqured by autocratic Sparta and later the whole Greece was conquered by barbarian Macedonia. This points to the fact that not all of antique Greece was democratic. The biggest dvelopment of greek culture happened during the reign of Alexander and his generals.
The forms of governement we have now can be traced more to the Roman Republic which was a bit better organized and better working system than direct democracy. The republican system fixes the shortcomings of the direct democracy by providing a representative form of governement to take care of the day to day management of a country. Greece, indeed, can be commented for establishing a democratic governement after a civil war an a brutal military junta in the sixties. It is a fairly young democracy and its point of departure was very low yet country was able to make a huge progress. This is hope for all its neighbors. To claim that the present governement has anything to do with the antique Grece is a stretch of imagination. |
Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 01:35
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This is completely non-sense survey. I do not want to make any comment on it since I do not take it into account. But I have to have someting to say on it cause I think it is shaped by prejudices and full of misinformations.
I wonder what is the difference between political culture of Turkey and Greece? The first difference is that Greece is not a secular country in which Greek Orthodox Church is the biggest political player. Can an anti-secular state be a democratic state? Non.
In addition to this Turkish minority in Greece had suffered a lot during years.
For example most of the almost 60,000 people deprived of citizenship since 1955 on the basis of Greek citizenship law article 19 belonged to the Muslim minority, which is mostly of Turkish ethnic origin. Just look at one example how Greece is a democracy....
http://www.karl.aegee.org/oem/articles/oe8/racegree.htm - http://www.karl.aegee.org/oem/articles/oe8/racegree.htm
"a person of non-Greek ethnic origin leaving Greece without the intention of returning may be declared as having lost his Greek nationality. This also applies to a person of non-Greek ethnic origin born and domiciled abroad. ...."
What a democracy !!! This "democracy" in Greece is beyond the scope of democracy which is mentioned in the survey.
How former communist block countries' political culture such as Bulgaria or Romania gets higher points than Turkey?
Another important point is related with democracy champion Sweden.... A country which conducted racial hygen policies until 1975. Swedish state has sterilised by force tens of thousands people. Much more people have been forced to abortion in line with racial hygen policies...
In addition to this, you can find a detailed information about Swedish media from the link below.
http://www.pressreference.com/Sw-Ur/Sweden.html - http://www.pressreference.com/Sw-Ur/Sweden.html
“The government and public service radio and television companies have agreements that regulate broadcasts and programming. These companies are expected to serve the public interest, and the government requires a certain amount of variety, education, and quality in their programming. Moreover, although the owners of the three public service companies in radio and television are popular movements, such as labor unions, consumer groups, and religious organizations (60 percent), commerce and industry (20 percent), and the press (20 percent), each of these public service companies have regional organizations, and the government nominates members to most of the governing bodies for these companies.”
The Swedish state order that most of the governing bodies in a media company in Sweden should be nominated by Swedish regime.
What a democratic state !!!!
There is a hidden racism and facism in Sweden. But they are the experts of making propaganda.
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Posted By: Styrbiorn
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 04:05
It was about medicinal reasons based on now obsolete ideas - such programs also existed in Norway, Finland, UK, the Netherlands and Canada. The victims were people with mental diseases, real or imagined, to prevent them from spreading them. It was obviously influenced by Nazi ideas. Racism had a part in it, though not all. The law existed from 1934 to 1976 and no less than 63000 people were sterilized, of which about 20000 was forced (people with alleged or real mental illnesses). The rest was mostly poor women with many children who did it voluntarily.
It was a disgrace, and it's really shameful - nobody denies that. However it ended over 30 years ago, it doesn't make Sweden less democratic today.
You are talking about the STATE TV, owned by the state. Do you find it surprising the governing body of the TV station owned by the government is selected by the government? Private-owned media is not, of course.
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 06:45
If something don't like it we dont taking into account.
Where did you found this information.The Greek Orthodox Church does not have any political party.If you want can make a political marriage or if you want you don't baptize your child you just declare the birth.
The only thing that we can blame is that the priests are public servants (also the muftis in W.T. are public servants).
But you are already made your conclusion that the Greek state is not secular state according your opinion that has no base.
In 1955 the Turkish state with a progrom ethincleansing all the Greek minority in Turkey ,the Greek state reacting on this progrom did the unjustice law of article 19 which article bytheway doesn't exist anymore
and they give back the lost nationalities to the victims of this unjustice decision.Sometimes you have to tell all the truth not the half of it.
But i don't see nobody (from the secular "democrats" of Ancara) to complain that the only place in Europe that exist the law of Sarhia (for family and heir cases) are the Greek Muslim citizens of W.T.
I suggest you to criticize the Turkish state to become better is more healthy than to try to find something before 50 or 60 years to compare .
All the UN camps all over Europe are full of Turkish citizens who ask political asylum from U.N.I don't know if you can criticize this.
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Posted By: Spartakus
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 08:23
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The Hellenic Orthodox church seems to be a strong political player,but in reality it isn't.Some years ago,Prime Minister Simitis put to the fore the ID card matter and whether it should be written in the ID card the person's religion.The Church made demonstrations with thousands of people, made public statements against such a political measure etc.Today,if you check an ID card of a Hellen citizen you will see that there is no religious reference in it....... P.S.:I must admit that i back up the Church on this matter. ------------- "There are worse crimes than burning books. One of them is not reading them. " --- Joseph Alexandrovitch Brodsky, 1991, Russian-American poet, b. St. Petersburg and exiled 1972 (1940-1996) |
Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 04-Jan-2007 at 09:43
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first of all there is not Turksih minority in Western Thrace. So i guess that you are refering to muslin minority. For your information the greek muslin minority has EXACTLY the same priviledges and rights with the orthodox greeks. NEVER a greek muslin has go against the greek state for taking away private property or for mistreat etc. On the contrary I cannot say the same with the greek minority in Konstantinople (or Istambul if you prefer). Additionally Turksih state many times has confiscated property beloning to greeks orthodox leaving in Turkey, has taken away the civil rights of the greek minority, there is no respect to the greek orthodox churches and the Patriarchs in Turkey. In greece we respect the Muslin holy places, we don't convert them to churches(you know what i mean!!!) The muslin minority can have muftis etc WITHOUT any problem . they also have representatives in greek parliament!!!! And if I recall there is a decision of international court some years ago (Turkish government rejected that decision) which said that the turkish state must give back the property that illegal has confiscate from a greek orthodox leaving in Konstantinople.
So if I were you I would think twice before I start talk about democracy and start accuse a fully democratic state ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |
Posted By: Alparslan
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 01:17
My point was that how the regime in Greece which fill your brains with those kind of informations can be presented as "full democracy"? Thank you for your helps.....
You did not only confiscate their lands; moreover Greek regime is abolishing their citizenship if Greek state authorities decide that Turks who went abroad do not have the intention of coming back his own country.
I went to Greece. If you go to Athens and to the most touristic quarter Plaka, you will see two remaining mosques. One is almost ruined and the other one is converted to a Greek Hand Arts Museum. The other tens of mosques in Athens have been perished as in the case of Selanik (Thessaloniki). Athens is the only capital in European Union which doesn't have a mosque despite of hundreds thousands of Muslims in the city....
Is this a full democracy? Is this a democracy?
You can produce non-sense studies showing yourself "the most". This is nothing more than masturbation. |
Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 03:12
No brother you are mistaken , there are millions of muslims and hindus also, latest report finds only 10000 greeks in Athens (all of them fascists).
-------------  Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
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Posted By: Antioxos
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 03:27
In the sixth century AD, the Parthenon was converted into a Christian church dedicated to the Virgin . After the Ottoman conquest , it was converted into a mosque you didn t mention about that!!
(If you are searching for converted churches to mosque and the opposite
go to Cyprus and do a small search to the occupied and to the free areas, there is more recent)
I m telling you again you don t have to go back 200 years ago to find something to compare with hybrid regime of Ancara.
As concern the mosque in Athens you are not well informed is already planed to build in the area of Eleonas till the end of 2009 with the expenses of the Greek state (15000000 euro) .
http://www.cpress.gr/article.php?art=27507 - http://www.cpress.gr/article.php?art=27507 (is not in English )
Now if this not a democracy we are waiting from you the standards to become a democracy and to fill the UN Camps of Europe with political refuges.
Here we can read from Akolouthos the "freedoms" that gives hybrid regime of Ancara (that wants become member of E.U.)to the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16294 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=16294
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Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 03:51
"Regime"?!!!, that was a good one ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: perikles
Date Posted: 05-Jan-2007 at 05:19
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he is used from his own state.
Why you mentioned only Athens and not Xanthi or Komotini? I am curious . I guess that this is the way you seeing the things. And in athens i thinks there are 1000000 muslins at least. And i guess that when you visit athens you found those hundreds of thousands muslins. thanks for your helps!!!!!!!!!!!!!! lol what can i say more. Viva Republic!!!! ------------- Samos national guard. 260 days left. |