R1a1/M17's origins:South Asia?
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Topic: R1a1/M17's origins:South Asia?
Posted By: Guests
Subject: R1a1/M17's origins:South Asia?
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 04:25
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Did M17 originate in South Asia?
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p. 16-7
"The most common Y-chromosomal lineage among Indians, R1a, also occurs away from India in populations of diverse linguistic and geographic affiliation. It is widespread in central Asian Turkic-speaking populations and in eastern European Finno-Ugric and Slavic speakers and has also been found less frequently in populations of the Caucasus and the Middle East and in Sino-Tibetan populations of northern China (Rosser et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001; Nebel et al. 2001;Weale et al. 2001). No clear consensus yet exists about the place and time of its origins. From one side, it has been regarded as a genetic marker linked with the recent spread of Kurgan culture that supposedly originated in southern Russia/Ukraine and extended subsequently to Europe, central Asia, and India during the period 3,000–1,000 B.C. (Passarino et al. 2001; Quintana Murci et al. 2001; Wells et al. 2001). Alternatively, an Asian source (Zerjal et al. 1999) or a deeper Palaeolithic time depth of ∼15,000 years before present for the defining M17 mutation has been suggested (Semino et al. 2000; Wells et al. 2001). Interestingly, the high frequency of the M17 mutation seems to be concentrated around the elevated terrain of central and western Asia. In central Asia, its frequency is highest (>50%) in the highlands among Tajiks, Kyrgyz, and Altais and drops down to <10% in the plains among the Turkmenians and Kazakhs (Wells et al. 2001; Zerjal et al. 2002). Our low STR diversity estimate of haplogroup R1a in central Asians is also consistent with the low diversities found by Zerjal et al.(2002) and suggests a recent founder effect or drift being the reason for the high frequency of M17 in southeastern central Asia. In Pakistan, except for the Hazara, who are supposedly recent immigrants in the region, the frequency of M17 was similarly high in the upper and lower courses of the Indus River valley (Qamar et al. 2002). The frequency of R1a drops from ∼30% in eastern provinces to <10% in the western parts of Iran (Quintana-Murci et al. 2001). Both Pakistanis and Iranians showed STR variances as high as those of Indians, when compared with the lower values in European and central Asian populations. Unexpectedly, both southern Indian tribal groups examined in this study carried M17. The presence of different STR haplotypes and the relatively high frequency of R1a in Dravidian-speaking Chenchus (26%) make M17 less likely to be the marker associated with male “Indo-Aryan” intruders in the area. Moreover, in two previous studies involving southern Indian tribal groups such as the Valmiki from Andhra Pradesh (Ramana et al. 2001) and the Kallar from Tamil and Nadu (Wells et al. 2001), the presence of M17 was also observed, suggesting that M17 is widespread in tribal southern Indians.
http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2003_v72_p313-332.pdf - http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2003_v72_p313-332.pdf
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Replies:
Posted By: Zagros
Date Posted: 27-Oct-2006 at 08:45
No, it is not the most common among Indians. It is the most common in north west India/Pakistan IIRC.
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 08:31
Originally posted by Zagros
No, it is not the most common among Indians. It is the most common in north west India/Pakistan IIRC. |
My question was regarding the origins of R1a1 Zagros.
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 29-Oct-2006 at 16:26
The problem with DNA studies is that they only take a couple of hundred samples from a population of millions when they should be taking thousands of samples at least from both urban and rural populations.
And then the researchers have all these maps drawn up that make it look like everyone on the globe has been tagged but in reality the sample database is way way to small to pick up tiny mutations that can give proper clues as to where every single type of gene really originated geographically speaking.
I think in 4 or 5 years we will start seeing better studies conducted with larger samples as the tests get cheaper and interest increases in asian communities.
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Posted By: kush_boy2003
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 06:32
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it is common in india. 60% in UP chamars and overall highest in UP/Haryana/Punjab.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 06:43
Originally posted by Xolotl1
Originally posted by Zagros
No, it is not the most common among Indians. It is the most common in north west India/Pakistan IIRC. |
My question was regarding the origins of R1a1 Zagros. |
He does'nt even seem to know what North western India is.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 01-Nov-2006 at 12:50
Originally posted by kush_boy2003
it is common in india. 60% in UP chamars and overall highest in UP/Haryana/Punjab. |
If R1a1 originated from anywhere in the subcontinent it would have been from Pakistan, since it's age has been estimated to be much older than that found in India. No good proof is available for where it originated.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: explorer6
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 11:44
The haplotype is more diverse in tribes and lower castes and less diverse as one goes up the caste system.
Thanseem et al. released a study recently showing some 0 haplogroup in brahmins. Wonder which particular castes were involved.
Voice of the Ancestors
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 14:15
Originally posted by explorer6
The haplotype is more diverse in tribes and lower castes and less diverse as one goes up the caste system |
a link for this?
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 03-Nov-2006 at 18:40
Are these DNA tests supposed to become a lot more sophisticated and cheaper in the next few years? I was thinking of getting one done but the good ones seem to cost $1500 or so and the $99 ones just either ID your Y or your mtDNA or something...and ignore the other 99.9% of you.
I mean if someone pays $99 and all they find out is which one of about 5 or 6 major genotypes[from their area] they have then is it really even worth it?
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Posted By: mard
Date Posted: 04-Nov-2006 at 21:52
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i dont beleive these DNA tests at all. They are so poorly done. i so much agree with maqsad. To me 90% of indians dont look like people of eastern europe or even iran for that matter.
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Posted By: explorer6
Date Posted: 06-Nov-2006 at 17:15
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by explorer6
The haplotype is more diverse in
tribes and lower castes and less diverse as one goes up the caste
system |
a link for this? |
Sanghamitra Sengupta et al. (2006), http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?AJHG42812ABS - Polarity
and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India
Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor
Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists , American Journal of Human Genetics, 78:202-221
Tribal Indian r1a1 has higher diversity than any other group tested in the world.
Voice of the Ancestors
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 05:29
Originally posted by explorer6
Sanghamitra Sengupta et al. (2006), http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/resolve?AJHG42812ABS - Polarity and Temporality of High-Resolution Y-Chromosome Distributions in India Identify Both Indigenous and Exogenous Expansions and Reveal Minor Genetic Influence of Central Asian Pastoralists , American Journal of Human Genetics, 78:202-221
Tribal Indian r1a1 has higher diversity than any other group tested in the world.
Voice of the Ancestors
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Where does it say in that paper that "Tribal Indian r1a1 has higher diversity than any other group tested in the world."
R1a1 did not originate from India under any circumstances. It might have originated in Pakistan if it did originate in South Asia, but it might also have originated in Eastern Europe. But not from India at all. The frequency of R1a1 is also much higher in Pakistan than in India. Here is a map of the STR variance showing that Pakistan is a more likelier origin of R1a1 than India.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 06:07
Ah ! But pakistan is just a few year old product of India, since you yourself say it may have originated in Pakistan, it cannot be differentiated from the parent country, India, since pakistan is just a few year old anamoly!!!!!!!!!!
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posted By: explorer6
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 18:20
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
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Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 18:30
| Ah ! But pakistan is just a few year old product of India, since you
yourself say it may have originated in Pakistan, it cannot be
differentiated from the parent country, India, since pakistan is just a
few year old anamoly!!!!!!!!!! |
I consider that trolling Vivek.
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 16-Nov-2006 at 19:12
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So what does your table show?
It shows the variances for YSTRs between a sample Pakistani population of 43 people and a sample Indian tribal population of 12 people. Basic statistics will tell you that the variance will be higher in the 12 people group than the 43 people group based solely on the number of data points chosen for each. That table just confirms a HUGE variation in Pakistani R1a1 compared to India. The only comparable one to the Pakistani population there is upper caste Indian, and that has 0.26..That is much less than the Pakistani figure of 0.36.
Why do you think the same paper gives the following map that shows the highest variance in Pakistan and not India? How would you explain this?
Also, if you look at Table 9 in that paper you get the following variances which show about twice as many markers in the Pakistani R1a1 have greater variance than the Indian populations.
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Table 9
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SDs of Repeat Numbers at 10 Microsatellite Loci within HGs with Sample Sizes >20, in Various Regions of India and Pakistan
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| REGION AND HG (n) |
SD BY MARKER |
| DYS19 |
DYS388 |
DYS389AB |
DYS389CD |
DYS390 |
DYS391 |
DYS392 |
DYS393 |
DYS439 |
DYSA7.2 |
| Northern India: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| R1a1 (32) |
.762 |
.369 |
.803 |
.508 |
.581 |
.543 |
.390 |
.309 |
.246 |
.354 |
| Eastern India: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| All H (36) |
.692 |
1.158 |
.893 |
.898 |
.841 |
.525 |
.167 |
.766 |
.756 |
.586 |
| O2a (36) |
.398 |
.000 |
.681 |
.319 |
.401 |
.467 |
.232 |
.560 |
.618 |
.554 |
| Southern India: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| F* (30) |
.844 |
.664 |
.740 |
.740 |
1.095 |
.484 |
.640 |
.820 |
.973 |
.858 |
| F* and all H (116) |
.720 |
.705 |
.858 |
.657 |
1.010 |
.486 |
.399 |
.773 |
.844 |
.700 |
| All H (86) |
.649 |
.260 |
.891 |
.629 |
.937 |
.490 |
.275 |
.569 |
.709 |
.563 |
| H1 (62) |
.459 |
.000 |
.459 |
.704 |
.658 |
.409 |
.319 |
.505 |
.696 |
.522 |
| J2b2 (21) |
.218 |
.498 |
.590 |
.359 |
.928 |
.632 |
.000 |
.512 |
.680 |
.436 |
| L1 (38) |
.434 |
.453 |
.569 |
.000 |
.162 |
.226 |
.311 |
.453 |
.788 |
.437 |
| O2a (33) |
.394 |
.174 |
.500 |
.561 |
.242 |
.489 |
.000 |
.517 |
.781 |
.545 |
| R1a1 (39) |
.683 |
.223 |
.785 |
.595 |
.686 |
.486 |
.160 |
.354 |
.451 |
.320 |
| R2 (22) |
.492 |
.294 |
.610 |
.581 |
.526 |
.213 |
.000 |
.716 |
.703 |
.685 |
| Central India: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
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| F* and all H (43) |
.575 |
.413 |
.374 |
.764 |
.814 |
.413 |
.457 |
.708 |
.796 |
.674 |
| All H (37) |
.229 |
.363 |
.277 |
.702 |
.468 |
.229 |
.000 |
.277 |
.689 |
.676 |
| H1 (34) |
.442 |
.247 |
.625 |
.666 |
.466 |
.254 |
.146 |
.247 |
.605 |
.682 |
| O2a (21) |
.000 |
.000 |
.598 |
.402 |
.316 |
.463 |
.000 |
.784 |
.301 |
.402 |
| Southern Pakistan: |
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| R1a1 (29) |
.978 |
.186 |
.736 |
.817 |
.636 |
.509 |
.186 |
.680 |
.622 |
.455 |
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: explorer6
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 21:57
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by explorer6
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
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So what does your table show?
It shows the variances for YSTRs between a sample Pakistani
population of 43 people and a sample Indian tribal population of 12
people. Basic statistics will tell you that the variance will be higher
in the 12 people group than the 43 people group based solely on the
number of data points chosen for each.
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Most genetic studies have too small samples, but my claim is backed by
this paper and also by data presented at conferences and discussed by
Stephen Oppenheimer.
Also look at Fig 2 in the following study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16893451
Three South Indian tribes with a total sample size of 250 have 46 R1a1
with an STR variance of .53. They used a different method though
than that in the Sengupta et al. study.
Just because the sample is smaller does not mean the variance
will be higher as in the Indian Muslim sample. The total sample of
tribal is not 12 but that is the number that have R1a1.
But overall more samples are needed. R1a1 might originate in Pakistan,
but even there it may be more diverse in lower castes. Yes, there
are Muslim castes in Pakistan which persisted after conversion of
Hindus to Islam.
Voice of the Ancestors
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 27-Nov-2006 at 23:48
When these originated, pakistan was non existent, so they originated in India.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 06:54
Originally posted by explorer6
Most genetic studies have too small samples, but my claim is backed by this paper and also by data presented at conferences and discussed by Stephen Oppenheimer.
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Nope, this is not true. Oppenheimer does believe R1a1 originated in South Asia, but he believe quite clearly that R1a1 originated in Pakistan and not India.
Oppenheimer concludes with two extraordinary conclusions: 'First, that the Europeans' genetic homeland was originally in South Asia in the Pakistan/Gulf region over 50,000 years ago; and second, that the Europeans' ancestors followed at least two widely separated routes to arrive, ultimately, in the same cold but rich garden. The earliest of these routes was the Fertile Crescent. The second early route from South Asia to Europe may have been up the Indus into Kashmir and on to Central Asia, where perhaps more than 40,000 years ago hunters first started bringing down game as large as mammoths.'
http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/mar/08kak.htm - http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/mar/08kak.htm
Also look at Fig 2 in the following study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16893451
Three South Indian tribes with a total sample size of 250 have 46 R1a1 with an STR variance of .53. They used a different method though than that in the Sengupta et al. study.
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And the study you show above does not show Pakistani variances, which as you clearly suggest yourself would be higher to the Sengupta study as they've used a different sampling method!
Just because the sample is smaller does not mean the variance will be higher as in the Indian Muslim sample. The total sample of tribal is not 12 but that is the number that have R1a1.
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It does mean this. If you don't understand what the variance depends on, ask someone who does. If the samples are too small (like in the table you quote from Sengupta but not the table I quoted), your sample variance will be higher because there is greater chance of giving more significance to inaccurate points.
But overall more samples are needed. R1a1 might originate in Pakistan, but even there it may be more diverse in lower castes. Yes, there are Muslim castes in Pakistan which persisted after conversion of Hindus to Islam.
Voice of the Ancestors
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Indus Vedism did not have castes. This was created in modern day India as any sensible website will tell you. "Pakistanis" were not Hindu either generally, most were Buddhist which did not have a caste system, the rest were Vedic (some people call it Hindu though it wasnt).
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: explorer6
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 08:57
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by explorer6
Oppenheimer concludes with two
extraordinary conclusions: 'First, that the Europeans' genetic homeland
was originally in South Asia in the Pakistan/Gulf region over 50,000
years ago; and second, that the Europeans' ancestors
followed at least two widely separated routes to arrive, ultimately, in
the same cold but rich garden. The earliest of these routes was the
Fertile Crescent. The second early route from South Asia to Europe may
have been up the Indus into Kashmir and on to Central Asia, where
perhaps more than 40,000 years ago hunters first started bringing down
game as large as mammoths.'
http://in.rediff.com/news/2005/mar/08kak.htm -
This is not a quote of Oppenheimer but someone else interpreting
him. Also it does not address the research based on caste which is my
emphasis. Here is what Oppenheimer says in the book mentioned by Kak:
"South
Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and
sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17
line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the
Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central
Asia but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups
in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male
Aryan Invasion of India.'
Study of the geographical
distribution and the diversity of genetic branches and stems again
suggests that Ruslan, along with his son M17, arose early in South
Asia, somewhere near India, and subsequently spread not only south-east
to Australia but also north, directly to Central Asia, before splitting
east and west into Europe and East Asia."
It's impossible
even using much more complete data to narrow down the geographical area
with that much precision, so to insist on Pakistan sounds like
nationalistic chest-beating to me.
[QUOTE]
Also look at Fig 2 in the following study:
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=16893451
Three
South Indian tribes with a total sample size of 250 have 46 R1a1 with
an STR variance of .53. They used a different method though than
that in the Sengupta et al. study.
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And the study you show above does not show
Pakistani variances, which as you clearly suggest yourself would be
higher to the Sengupta study as they've used a different sampling
method!
[QUOTE]
I did not suggest that their data was higher due to a different
method. You can email Thanseem himself. The tribal data is higher
than for high castes. You can also email Oppenheimer on this subject.
Just because the sample is smaller does not mean the variance
will be higher as in the Indian Muslim sample. The total sample of
tribal is not 12 but that is the number that have R1a1.
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It does mean this. If you don't understand
what the variance depends on, ask someone who does. If the samples are
too small (like in the table you quote from Sengupta but not the table
I quoted), your sample variance will be higher because there is greater chance of giving more significance to inaccurate points.
[QUOTE]
Small samples only give lower accuracy. The data can give
either too low or too high results. The results come closer to
the truth as the sample grows closer to true representation. All the
samples are too small. If the sample was too small too be
insignicant, then Sengupta et al. would not mention the signifcance of
tribes having higher variance than upper castes. Nowhere do
they mention that this is simply a function of the smaller sample.
Voice of the Ancestors
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 14:52
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This is not a quote of Oppenheimer but someone else interpreting him. Also it does not address the research based on caste which is my emphasis. Here is what Oppenheimer says in the book mentioned by Kak |
It looks like a quote to me or some sort of paraphrase. Regardless that quote is intended to be from Oppenheimers book.
At least we can eliminate nationalistic bias from there, so that leaves someone who cannot understand English yet he's managed to right an article for a major Indian magazine on the subject that is widely circulated. Eliminating nationalism from Indian papers, you get a fairly accurate picture of what is what, and there's hundreds of other websites that have come up with the same quote. If you think that they're all wrong, then you're trying to see something that is not there. Buy his book and you'll see what is quoted as R1a1 arising from the Pakistan/Gulf region is what Oppenheimer states in his book.
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South Asia is logically the ultimate origin of M17 and his ancestors; and sure enough we find highest rates and greatest diversity of the M17 line in Pakistan, India, and eastern Iran, and low rates in the Caucasus. M17 is not only more diverse in South Asia than in Central Asia but diversity characterizes its presence in isolated tribal groups in the south, thus undermining any theory of M17 as a marker of a 'male Aryan Invasion of India.'
Study of the geographical distribution and the diversity of genetic branches and stems again suggests that Ruslan, along with his son M17, arose early in South Asia, somewhere near India, and subsequently spread not only south-east to Australia but also north, directly to Central Asia, before splitting east and west into Europe and East Asia."
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Right, now read what you quote carefully. Nowhere in any of that quote does it say that R1a1 arose in India. In fact it specifically says that R1a1 arose somewhere NEAR India. It says R1a1 is diverse in Pakistan, India and also Eastern Iran (Baloch areas preseumably).
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It's impossible even using much more complete data to narrow down the geographical area with that much precision, so to insist on Pakistan sounds like nationalistic chest-beating to me
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Ignorant assumption. If you read my previous postings on this, I believe and still do, that R1a1 arose in Eastern Europe during the LGM. Though what I am saying is that diversity of R1a1 in Pakistan is much greater than in India which is what Oppenheimer is saying and it's what every investigator has said for R1a1
| I did not suggest that their data was higher due to a different method. You can email Thanseem himself. The tribal data is higher than for high castes. You can also email Oppenheimer on this subject.
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This is getting very very silly now. You quoted a paper to show that the Indian tribes had a variance of 0.53 R1a1. Guess what? This adds no further evidence to your point that R1a1 is likely to originate in India as opposed to Pakistan (or even Eastern Europe). The study needs to take very large samples from India, from Pakistan and Eastern Europe and compare them all. This has not been done in the study that you quote from where you're trying to make some nonsensical point about Indian tribals having a large R1a1 variance - it's been known that R1a1 in Indian tribes do have a large variance (but not the largest), and it's known the Indian tribes and castes group together. If you read the paper you quote from it says even that Indian castes and Indian tribes show similar variances for Ra1, so the tribal R1a1 could easily come from caste R1a1.
AMOVA analysis revealed 2.77% variation among the three tribal populations studied. They showed 2.18% variation, when compared with the 8 South Indian tribal populations studied earlier. When Andh samples were omitted from the analysis, the other two populations showed more closeness to the other Indian tribes, with 1.72% variation. Interestingly, the variation between the studied tribal populations and 13 Indian caste populations (Table articlerender.fcgi?artid=1569435&rendertype=table&id=T4 - 4 ) was only 1.14%. When all the available data were combined (11 tribes and 13 castes) the variance between the groups became 2.85% (north-east Indian tribal data omitted). This is a remarkably lower value than the earlier report of Cordaux et al [ l%20B13 - 13 ], where they found 13% variation between the Indian tribal and caste groups. In this study, however, we omitted populations with samples size less than 20, and those for which all biallelic polymorphisms were not typed. A total of 508 tribal and 901 caste samples were included in the analysis; this forms the broadest dataset of Indian Y chromosomes, so far [see l%20S1 - Additional file 1 ].
If you email Thanseem, he will repeat the quote above, and if you email Oppenheimer he will repeat what he says in his book, that R1a1 originated in the Pakistan/Gulf region. I don't know why this is so difficult to take in, as hundreds of websites mention this quote.
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Small samples only give lower accuracy. The data can give either too low or too high results. The results come closer to the truth as the sample grows closer to true representation. All the samples are too small. If the sample was too small too be insignicant, then Sengupta et al. would not mention the signifcance of tribes having higher variance than upper castes. Nowhere do they mention that this is simply a function of the smaller sample.
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Small samples will give greater variances and false results as it's unlikely that a good sample has been taken. This is basic knowledge and Sengupta DOES ignore the tribal values in the larger table I quoted from above (samples >20 were used so the 12 sample you quoted above was ignored). If you read the quote above, Cordeaux found that variances of 13% because he used samples <20, and all this variance was lost when they used samples >20 (according to Thanseem). Cordeaux incidentally, finds that R1a1 came from central asia and then passed onto the tribals through bidirectional gene flow.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: explorer6
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 14:58
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
[QUOTE]Buy his book and you'll see what is
quoted as R1a1 arising from the Pakistan/Gulf region is what
Oppenheimer states in his book.
[QUOTE]
Don't have to buy the book as I've already read it, and have email correspondence with Oppenheimer himself. He only gives the area of "South Asia" and does not specify Pakistan.
It's impossible
even using much more complete data to narrow down the geographical area
with that much precision, so to insist on Pakistan sounds like
nationalistic chest-beating to me
|
Ignorant assumption. If you read my previous postings on this, I
believe and still do, that R1a1 arose in Eastern Europe during the LGM.
Ok I see where you're coming from -- complete ignorance and
"white hopes!" No used arguing with someone caught in a dream of
"Aryan" invaders.
Voice of the Ancestors
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 15:14
|
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don't have to buy the book as I've already read it, and have email correspondence with Oppenheimer himself. He only gives the area of "South Asia" and does not specify Pakistan |
Obviously I only have your word against the word of a reporter from the Rediff paper. You'll understand if I take Rediff a bit more seriously than you
|
Ok I see where you're coming from -- complete ignorance and "white hopes!" No used arguing with someone caught in a dream of "Aryan" invaders
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 If I'm a nationalist as you suggested before, I'd be all for Pakistan being completely indigenous. But it's not and anthroplogy is clear on it. Pashtuns are partly descended from Greeks so does that make me a Greek nationalist or mean I have dreams of being Greek? No, it's a simple fact. Likewise, there has been no proper evidence to show that R1a1 arose in the subcontinent. There is a theory, but R1a1 is just more likely to have arose from the North. All this happened a couple of thousand years ago so there's enough time to introduce other changes into people (and even to colour up some skin).
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 28-Nov-2006 at 21:45
Afghans from greeks ?? then that would extend gradually eastwards too, by the same logic. Would also serve as a good explanation for many of your theories. Good reasoning.
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 00:46
Nope, it didn't extend eastwards with the Greeks..Perhaps as much as 5% or 10% of Pakistani Pashtuns have Greek ancestry, but no other ethnic group in Pakistan seems to have had any Greek input..
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 02:56
The western punjabis no eastern pakistanis will have it. they were conquered by alexander right ?
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 04:14
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One of the things that happened with Alexander's army was they kept getting killed by pakis starting from Porus all the way down the Indus. Now, to replenish the dead soldiers Alexander had to recruit other pakis I believe. How many he recruited I do not know but that fact just crossed my mind because only now I realized that many of these pakis might have ended up back in greece and persia.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 04:24
When did zinna tell porus that he was a paki ?
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PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 04:25
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
The western punjabis no eastern pakistanis will have it. they were conquered by alexander right ? |
Actually, no the Western Punjabis do not have any Greek admixture, and the the Eastern Punjabis dont either. Greek admixture is restricted to a small but sizeable amount of the Pakistani Pathan population at least the Y-haplogroups are.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 29-Nov-2006 at 17:10
Originally posted by TeldeInduz
Originally posted by Vivek Sharma
The western punjabis no eastern pakistanis will have it. they were conquered by alexander right ? |
Actually, no the Western Punjabis do not have any Greek admixture, and the the Eastern Punjabis dont either. Greek admixture is restricted to a small but sizeable amount of the Pakistani Pathan population at least the Y-haplogroups are. |
And that specific Y-haplogroup is....?
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 30-Nov-2006 at 00:43
M78..Haplo E3b1..Only the Pathan sample has Greek origin E3b1.
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Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre.................
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