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Confederate Generals

Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: General History
Forum Name: Military History
Forum Discription: Discussions related to military history: generals, battles, campaigns, etc.
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=1538
Printed Date: 14-May-2024 at 13:12
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Topic: Confederate Generals
Posted By: Murph
Subject: Confederate Generals
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 17:24

how do the confederate generals of the american civil war rank among the greatest generals of alltime, especially Robert E. Lee

severely outmanned and undersupplied, the confederate armies lasted 4 years of total war with the powerful Union armies almost soley by the skill of their leadership

for much of the war, Robert E. Lee handed the Union armies complete and embarressing defeats in many large battles. so where does he rank among his counterparts

(i shouldn't even have to say this, but please don't accuse me of supporting the confederate cause and slavery in this post...i am simply asking where you think this very skilled general ranks)




Replies:
Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 17:31
Longstreet= god

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Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 18:19
Lee and Longstreet are easily the best with some props to Johnson as well, but Jackson is an ovverated commander with not as good a record as many people claim.

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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 21:08

please don't accuse me of supporting the confederate cause

OF COURSE, because that would be horrible.

Lee:  Top 3 in history, with Alexander the Great and Hannibal.

Longstreet:  Solid Corps commander.

Jackson:  Look at his Shenandoah Valley campaign, easily one of the best campaigns in history.

A. S. Johnston:  Never realized his potential, though it could've gone either way.



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Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 12-Dec-2004 at 21:26
Jackson was a great commander, with the operational and not just tactical expertise that really separates great commanders from good commanders.

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Member of IAEA


Posted By: Murph
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 20:54
Originally posted by King Jeff 2

please don't accuse me of supporting the confederate cause

OF COURSE, because that would be horrible.

Lee:  Top 3 in history, with Alexander the Great and Hannibal.

by that i meant mainly slavery

i know that he was a superb commander , but i'm not sure about top 3 of all time



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Posted By: Gubook Janggoon
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 20:57
Top 3 commanders is highly debatable.  Let's just say he's good.  Very good.   Extremely good.

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Posted By: J.M.Finegold
Date Posted: 14-Dec-2004 at 22:15
Originally posted by Gubukjanggoon

Longstreet= god


I agree.


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Posted By: demon
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 04:19

I agree.
Can I ask you why?

Jackson was a great commander, with the operational and not just tactical expertise that really separates great commanders from good commanders.

Yup.  It was he and Lee who drove out the Union at this battle in 7 days (damn...I studied civil war 3 years ago and can't remember anything)



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Grrr..


Posted By: J.M.Finegold
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 20:11
Longstreet's preformance at Chickamagua (f*** the spelling) was astonishing and his preformance before at Gettysburg was even more spectacular.  He was very talented at staving off Union advances - until of couse, the odds were just too disproportional.

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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 21:31

Longstreet was a solid commander, but don't think he never screwed up: at Gettysburg he dilly-dallied the July 2nd attacks (sitting around for several hours, doing nothing while the Union defenses were strengthened), which probably prevented the Army of Northern Virginia from winning the battle (and the war) that day.  Not to mention that he was a horrible complainer; when he didn't get his way (as at Gettysburg), he his feet and kept several good plans of Lee's from developing.

Jackson was no exeption: after his spectacular Valley Campaign, he performed sluggishly during the Peninsular Campaign.  His troops were slow and attacks often resulted in huge losses.  The Confederates actually lost 33% more men than the Union, even though McClellan's forces outnumbered those of Lee 3 to 2.

As to Lee, of course it is debatable if he was one of the top 3 Generals of all-time; but you have your opinions, and I have mine.

It would make an interesting topic, however; perhaps someone would like to post a thread posing that very question?



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Posted By: J.M.Finegold
Date Posted: 15-Dec-2004 at 21:56

Well yea, Longstreet, as every other 'second echelon' general (as in, not those ranked at the top ten such as: Lee, Grant, Napoleon...etc...if you even rank Grant as one of those..heh)..in any case; as a second echelon general he made his mistakes - however, these don't negate his obvious gift in command.

The questions pops up:  had Longstreet had his way in Gettysburg, would the battle been a victory?  That's truly a mind bender - I don't know enough about Gettysburg to analyze it, and I hope that one of my superiors in this genre give me a good schooling.

However, in any case, I do consider Longstreet as one of the unsung generals of the Civil War - leaving Grant, Sherman and Lee in their legendery posts as three of the greatest American generals to ever command.



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Posted By: Murph
Date Posted: 16-Dec-2004 at 18:31
Originally posted by King Jeff 2

It would make an interesting topic, however; perhaps someone would like to post a thread posing that very question?

that is basically what this thread is supposed to be doing



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Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 15:41
why do all the Jackson lovers ignore his many many many failures?  God, the peninsular campaing though a confederate tactical victory could have been a devastating and overwhelimg victory if Jackson had obeyed his orders.  All of Jackdons brilliant sucesses can eb atribuyted to Lee's plans, and when Jackson didnt follow through with the plan which was often, nothing would happen.  His men often crashed headlinginto defenses and were killed when they were supposed to be outfalnking, the entire penninsula campaing is one giant track record of Jackson goofing up and marching his men in random directions for no reason. 

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"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton


Posted By: Laelius
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 22:05

well Jackson was physically done during the Peninsular campaign, at one point he simply collapsed against a tree. 

at Gettysburg he dilly-dallied the July 2nd attacks (sitting around for several hours, doing nothing while the Union defenses were strengthened),
 

Picket's charge was a massacre, even if Longstreet attacked when he was supposed to it would have been little different.  Besides if Lee had listened to Longstreet in the first place and marched around the still assembling army of the Potomoc to take up a defensive position in between the AoP and Washington he might have claimed the decisive victory he so deperately wanted.  Longstreet believed that by threatening Washington the political leaders of the Union would force the AoP to attack the ANV in a defensible position and cause a repeat of Fredericksburg.   This demonstrates why Longstreet was superior to REL, because he understood that the primary weakness of the Union was its political arrangements.

Lee:  Top 3 in history, with Alexander the Great and Hannibal.

As capable as Lee was I wouldn't place him in the top 10 nor would I even place him as the top 3 of American commanders.  If you must know I'd place Patton, Wood, and Forrest as the three most capable general's produced by the US.



Posted By: Laelius
Date Posted: 17-Dec-2004 at 22:32

FYI Major General John S Wood commanded the 4th armored during world war II, his tactics before the war were visionary and widely criticized in the US army before and during the second world war.  Yet in hindsight it has become apparent that if he had more of a free reign he would have completely destroyed the German Western front on more than one occasion. 



Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 10:06

Picket's charge was a massacre, even if Longstreet attacked when he was supposed to it would have been little different.

What does Pickett's Charge have to do with Longstreet?  Other than the fact that it could have been prevented by Longstreet the day before...

Besides if Lee had listened to Longstreet in the first place and marched around the still assembling army of the Potomoc to take up a defensive position in between the AoP and Washington he might have claimed the decisive victory he so deperately wanted.

You can't say this for sure.  In fact, had Pickett's Charge succeeded, it would have been the end for the Army of the Potomac.  It would have been totally crushed, and Lee could walk into Washington.  Longstreets plan would have yielded no such results.  Even if Lee could've taken Washington, the AoP would have been right there, and the war would go on.

Longstreet believed that by threatening Washington the political leaders of the Union would force the AoP to attack the ANV in a defensible position and cause a repeat of Fredericksburg.   This demonstrates why Longstreet was superior to REL, because he understood that the primary weakness of the Union was its political arrangements.

See above.  You're assuming that simply taking Washington without the destruction of the AoP would've won the war (along with assuming that Lee didn't know that the politics of the North were a weakness, which is asinine).

As capable as Lee was I wouldn't place him in the top 10 nor would I even place him as the top 3 of American commanders.

Whatever dude.

FYI Major General John S Wood commanded the 4th armored during world war II, his tactics before the war were visionary and widely criticized in the US army before and during the second world war.  Yet in hindsight it has become apparent that if he had more of a free reign he would have completely destroyed the German Western front on more than one occasion.

Details?  If that's all you can say, you have a limited scope of knowledge and shouldn't expect others to give much credit to your opinions.



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Posted By: Laelius
Date Posted: 18-Dec-2004 at 16:11

What does Pickett's Charge have to do with Longstreet?  Other than the fact that it could have been prevented by Longstreet the day before...

 

The AoP didn't reinforce itself at its center, it reinforced itself at its flanks.  The center wasn't much weaker during the second day.

 

You can't say this for sure.  In fact, had Pickett's Charge succeeded, it would have been the end for the Army of the Potomac.  It would have been totally crushed, and Lee could walk into Washington.  Longstreets plan would have yielded no such results.  Even if Lee could've taken Washington, the AoP would have been right there, and the war would go on.

 

except that the attack didn't even come close to succeeding, the Union line may have been but that was merely Hancock pulling back his forward infantry so that he could use his artillery with greater effect.

 

See above.  You're assuming that simply taking Washington without the destruction of the AoP would've won the war (along with assuming that Lee didn't know that the politics of the North were a weakness, which is asinine).

 

Longstreet didn't care about taking Washington, the point was to threaten it and in so doing force the Union army to attack it in a strong defensive position.  It's sort of ironic, a couple months earlier had Hooker listened to his subordinates, Meade Reynolds and Hancock, who were begging to counter attack following Jackson's attack on the Union flank at Chancellorsville Lee's army would have at the very least been driven from the field in disorder.  A few months later had Lee listened to Longstreet he might have gained the victory he wanted.  Well not exactly, it was no longer practical to expect a Cannae or an Austerlitz on account of the tactics of the day, terrain, slight improvements in technology as well as the heavy concentration of artillery in the Union army.  The fact that Lee didn't realize this even after Second Manassas when Longstreet's corp slammed into Pope's rear displays a surprising amount of obtuseness.

 

Whatever dude.

 

likewise

 

Details?  If that's all you can say, you have a limited scope of knowledge and shouldn't expect others to give much credit to your opinions.

 

Wood served brilliantly during Operation Cobra, his thrusting attacks during the "Race across France" and his encirclement of Nancy were superb.  Yet a problem arose when corp command, of the corp Wood was a part, opened up in the third army for which Patton considered Wood only to choose an old West Point buddy Sprague Eddy, a decision he later regretted.  Eddy was notoriously conservative and had little knowledge of how to employ armor, under his command Wood became increasingly frustrated and was relieved.  I suspect that if John S Wood was given the opportunity he would have shown what he was capable, his protoge Creighton Abrams would eventually reform the US Army.


Of course Wood had very little experience and there is little to truly judge his abilities on but then again you placed Lee  as one of the three greatest generals ahead of a number of other generals who had far more illustrious careers and made significantly greater contributions to military tactics and strategy.  I'm sorry but Lee makes a poor comparison to the likes of Napoleon, Scipio Africanus, Subotai, Frederick the Great and a number of others.  So is it worse to place Wood ahead of Lee?



Posted By: pytheas
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 21:14
J.E.B. Stewart was a very capable cavalry commander, although directlt before and during the Battle of Gettysburg, he was galavanting around conducting guerilla warfare instead of doing what he should have been doing, keeping Lee informed of the AoP's position.  In my mind, Gettysburg allowed one of the most spectacular leaders to shine--Colonel Joshua Chamberlain of the 20th Maine, who later become a Brigidier General.  Of course that leaves me to say that I'd agree that Longstreet along with Pickett were great generals.  Lee may be considered one of the most reverred generals of all time, loved by his men and respected in both Washington and Richmond.  Afterall he was originally asked to command the Union forces as war broke out.  It really seems to me that if Lee had not resigned his commission with the US and gone to Richmond, the Civil War may have ended quickly.  In another thread, we discuss the reasons for WWI breaking out.  I'd ask everyone to compare on a mico-level with what happened to the US at the outset of the Civil War.  Men felt more allegience to their individual state and little identification with the Union.  So when things seemed at an impasse with the election of Lincoln, the firebrands came out and fueled further disintegration of the Union.  If Lee had not felt the more powerful pull to Richmond and his native Virginia, the CSA would have lacked much credible military leadership.  And with lee, McClelland, Sherman, et al the US would have quickly and more effortlessly put down the rebellion.  

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Truth is a variant based upon perception. Ignorance is derived from a lack of insight into others' perspectives.


Posted By: pytheas
Date Posted: 19-Dec-2004 at 21:18
Also, refer to the American Civil War for the advent of the Gatling gun and trench warfare--something most folks identify with WWI.  

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Truth is a variant based upon perception. Ignorance is derived from a lack of insight into others' perspectives.


Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 22-Dec-2004 at 21:02

The AoP didn't reinforce itself at its center, it reinforced itself at its flanks.  The center wasn't much weaker during the second day.

What the hell are you talking about?  After the second day, Meade reinforced the center.
Your sentence makes no sense.  If the AoP reinforced it's flanks, how is the center no weaker?

except that the attack didn't even come close to succeeding, the Union line may have been but that was merely Hancock pulling back his forward infantry so that he could use his artillery with greater effect.

Hindsight is 20/20.  Lee thought that Meade would have reinforced his flanks after the July 2 attacks; thus a thrust at the center would have made much more sense than a flank attack (that had already failed).  Lee simply made a miscalculation; one which WOULDN'T have been made had Longstreet done his job on Day 2.

Longstreet didn't care about taking Washington, the point was to threaten it and in so doing force the Union army to attack it in a strong defensive position.

So what if the Union DID attack it in a strong position?  The AoP would have still been very much intact and still posed a threat to Lee.

You're proposing that instead of Lee trying to win, he simply should have tried not to lose.  Which, after taking into consideration Lee's vastly inferior manpower and supply situation, would never have won the war for the Confederacy.

It's sort of ironic, a couple months earlier had listened to his subordinates, Meade Reynolds and Hancock, who were begging to counter attack following Jackson's attack on the Union flank at Chancellorsville Lee's army would have at the very least been driven from the field in disorder.  A few months later had Lee listened to Longstreet he might have gained the victory he wanted.  Well not exactly, it was no longer practical to expect a Cannae or an Austerlitz on account of the tactics of the day, terrain, slight improvements in technology as well as the heavy concentration of artillery in the Union army.  The fact that Lee didn't realize this even after Second Manassas when Longstreet's corp slammed into Pope's rear displays a surprising amount of obtuseness.

This paragraph is so incoherent that I'm not even going to try to refute it.

Wood served brilliantly during Operation Cobra, his thrusting attacks during the "Race across France" and his encirclement of Nancy were superb.

Way to just restate what you said before.

Yet a problem arose when corp command, of the corp Wood was a part, opened up in the third army for which Patton considered Wood only to choose an old West Point buddy Sprague Eddy, a decision he later regretted.  Eddy was notoriously conservative and had little knowledge of how to employ armor, under his command Wood became increasingly frustrated and was relieved.  I suspect that if John S Wood was given the opportunity he would have shown what he was capable, his protoge Creighton Abrams would eventually reform the US Army.

So because Patton chose another person over Wood and he performed badly, Wood is a good general?  That's ridiculous.

Of course Wood had very little experience and there is little to truly judge his abilities on...

So why is he one of the three greatest of all time?  You're not making any sense.

you placed Lee  as one of the three greatest generals ahead of a number of other generals who had far more illustrious careers and made significantly greater contributions to military tactics and strategy.  I'm sorry but Lee makes a poor comparison to the likes of Napoleon, Scipio Africanus, Subotai, Frederick the Great and a number of others.  So is it worse to place Wood ahead of Lee?

Lee is on my Top 3 list because he held out against, nay, decisively defeated an enemy that outnumbered, outgunned, and outsupplied him for 3 years, and only succumbed when the enemy was simply too large to have any hope of winning against.  He made his mistakes, but I'd challenge you to find one general in history who didn't.  He roamed Virginia at will for three years despite being often outnumbered two to one.  He was a tactical and strategical genious.
This is not to mention that he was a leader in peace as in war, signified by how he asked his men to pretty much forgive and forget even after sacrificing years of their lives, friends, family members, fortunes, and reputations to try to defeat the invaders.  He is the single best individual I have ever encountered on all my wonderings throughout World History, even after completely disregarding what he did militarily.  Any reputable study into Lee's personality will prove my point.

J.E.B. Stewart was a very capable cavalry commander, although directlt before and during the Battle of Gettysburg, he was galavanting around conducting guerilla warfare instead of doing what he should have been doing, keeping Lee informed of the AoP's position.

That is a common myth.  In reality, Stewart was cut off from Lee by sheer [accident.



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Posted By: pytheas
Date Posted: 24-Dec-2004 at 01:51
And sheer egotism...

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Truth is a variant based upon perception. Ignorance is derived from a lack of insight into others' perspectives.



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