"Umm...some korean nationalist say (Falsely in my opinon) that Nurachi was a Korean because supposedly his name means "Loveingly remembers Shilla" which is a bunch of BS...what are you talking about? "

Ai Xin Jue Luo isn't even a name created by Nurhaci, it was Huang Tai Ji that did after he changed the tribes name from Jurchen to Manchu. Before that Nurhaci had the Han name of Tong. If these nationalist want to make baseless nationalistic assumptions about their names they should at least get the history right.

I'm not taking about Pohai (or Parhae in Korean).

This book that I was reading did not sound nationalistic at all. I was wondering if the fact that the founder of the Chin Empire was actually descended from a Silla nobleman. Silla fell around 935AD Chin rebellion against the Khitans started around 1114AD.

Imperial Nomads by Luc Kwanten published publisher is University of Pennsylvania press

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812277503/qid=1102856983/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4521050-4276868?v=glance&s=books - http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0812277503/qid =1102856983/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-4521050-4276868?v=glance&a mp;s=books

This is stated within the first few chapters of the book.

He's referring to wanan Agolta (èÇäÔ ä¹Íéöè), founder of Jin Dynasty, what Koreans call Gau-ran/Yau Jin.  And he , according to Korean sources, IS a Korean

According to some historians, Agolta was Shilla's last King, Ma-yi Teja's son.  Reasons?  Start with the name "Jin".  It means gold.  Now Shilla King's last name was Kim (it was Park from the founder Park Hyok Gu Sae but after unification it was replaced with the kim family).  What a coincidence. 

"Wanan" was called to Shilla Kings.  Same with Jin Dynastly's kings.  Wow.  nice coincidence

Also, there was an incidence where Jin wanted a pact with Korea, giving hundreds of camels as a gift.  THe King of Koryo, not wanting a pact with so called "barbarians", starved them to death. But we see that these Jin people are un usually kind to Koryo people.  Why would that be so?

This excerpt was written in Kubliai khan's reigime(êª), there is a written book(ïáÞÈ) about Jin dynasty (ÑÑÞÈ).  It goes like:

(¡®ÑÑÞÈ¡¯ ÜâѺð¯1, á¦Ñº)
ÑÑñýã·ðÓ ýÉùÞÜÅ ôøðôÍÔÕòÕÎ

Founder of Jin is Hweega Hambo(Chinese pronounciation of wanan Agolta), and he first came from Koryo

---

Hong Ho, known diplomat who was sent in year 1129 to exchange the captured Song Emperor HumJong(ýãðó), has written a history book in his book, Song Mak Ki Moon (áæØ®ÑÀÚ¤).  Its excerpt:

åüòØõÜíþ Ò¬ãæÔþìÑ ûÜèÇäÔä« èÇäÔë¢ùÓåëèÝå¥

Yau Jin's founder is Shilla origin, with the surname Wanan, Wanan is the same stuff as Hanun's King. {remember that Wanan was called to SHilla kings-Hanun is split as Han and Un, Han referrign to Koreans}


---

Kubliai Khan's country(I say this because I don't remember what the dynasty's name was ) had a bright intellect by the name U moon Mu So (éÔÙþÙåá¹), who wrote the cultures and traditions of Jin in the book Gum-Ji(ÑÑò¤).  An excerpt goes like:

ÐìôøõÜíþ ÜâãæÔþìÑ ûÜèÇäÔä« èÇäÔë¢ùÓåëèÝå¥

The first cheif was a Shilla, called Wanan, and wanan is the same thing as Hanun's king.

---

The previous excerpts were all from Kubliai Khan's country (uhh...was it wang dynasty or won dynasty????can't remember still), non Korean source.

----

Excerpt from Manchu-origin-writing(Ø»ñ½ê¹×µÍÅ) from Qing (ôè) Kwon RungËë×Ì year 43 1778 via Hwang MyongüÕÙ¤

ÑÑñýã·ðÓ ýÉùëÝ£[ÏÁíÂùÞÜÅ] ôøðôÍÔÕòÕÎ [äÎ÷×ÍÅÒ¬ÓÞÑÑÏÐò¤ËËéöÜâí»ãæÔþÕÎàóèÇäÔä«ÍÅãæÔþæ¨ÍÔÕòÏÁò¢ßÓó¹ é¬ÑÑÞÈñé èÙèÙì£ÏÐû¼öà ÜôêÓÝÂܬ]

Jin's origin is Hweega Hapbu (before it was said hambo) and he first arrived from Koryo.  (watching two sources Tongo and DeGumGukJi, they all arrived conclusion that he came from Shilla, its king with the last name Wanan.  BTW, shlla and Koryo has got its land mixed up and thus Jin and Yau just randomly use the countires name- same stuff)

---

Kum Sa(), THE OFFICIAL HISTORY EXCERPT FROM JIN DYNSTY, starts out with these excerpts:

ÑÑ ñý à» £¬ õó ØË Êê ä« £® ØË Êê Üâ ûÜ Ú¨ ÑÎ £® Ú¨ ÑÎ £¬ ͯ âÜ 慎 ò¢ å¥ £® êª êà ãÁ £¬ Ú¨ ÑÎ êó öÒ Ý» £º èØ áØ ØÇ Ý» £¬ èØ Û× 咄 Ý» £¬ èØ äÌ ó³ Íé Ý» £¬ èØ ÝÙ Ý» £¬ èØ ûÜ ãø Ý» £¬ èØ ýÙ â© Ý» £¬ èØ ÛÜ ß£ Ý» £®âÉ öà ØË Êê £¬ì» öÒ Ý» 並 ÔÒ £® ÓÐ ôø £¬ êó ýÙ â© ØË Êê ¡¢ áØ ØÇ ØË Êê £¬ Ðì çé Ý» Ùí Ú¤ £®áØ ØÇ ØË Êê 㷠ݾ ÍÔ Õò £¬ àó ÓÞ ä« £® ×Ý îÓ ÷ò ÍÔ Õò £¬áØ ØÇ ØË Êê ÜÁ ÔÔ Ù¿ ߣ £® ý­ 為 Úý ú­ £¬ öà èÝ £¬ îî ä¨ æ® á¦ £® êó Ùþ í® ¡¢ ÖÉ äÅ ¡¢ ί ݤ ¡¢ ð¤ Óø £® êó çé ÌÈ ¡¢ ä¨ çé ݤ ¡¢ ׿ ä¨ ì£ ñ¶ £®ýÙ â© ØË Êê ËÜ âÜ 慎 ò¢ £¬ ÔÔ Þµ ú­ £¬ Ñõ ïÈ ÍÔ Õò £¬ æ² Ý¾ éÍ ÍÔ Õò £® ßÄ ì¤ Ü² ä¨ çé Ø¿ ð¾ ÍÔ Õò ËÞ ÓÐ ÷¼ ðó £¬ ø¨ éÍ äÌ ã¼ £® ËÒ êª ñé £¬ ÕÎ ðÈ £¬ öÇ ý٠⩠ݤ £¬ ì¤ Ý» íþ 為Ô´ Ô½ ¡¢ í© ÞÈ £¬ öÇ íþ ÞÈ Êø ñý £® Þô Ô´ Ô½ àó ×Ý ä« £¬ Ù£ úÌ á¤ £¬ ÖÅ ýÙ â© Ìè ÕÔ ÞÅ £® Ðì ý­ Úý ú­ àü 強 £¬ ýÙ â© æµ áÕ ñý £¬ ðÈ Íø âÄ 絕 £® çé ÓÛ ãÁ £¬ Ìø Ó¡ ò× ö¢ Úý ú­ ò¢ £¬ ì» ýÙ â© ØË Êê ݾ áÕ éÍ Ìø Ó¡ £® Ðì î¤ Ñõ íº îß Ìø Ó¡ £¬ ûÜ âÙ Ò³ òÁ £» Ðì î¤ ÝÁ íº Üô î¤ Ìø Ó¡ îß £¬ ûÜ ßæ Ò³ òÁ £® ßæ Ò³ òÁ ò¢ êó ûè ÔÒ Ë° ¡¢ íþ ÛÜ ß£ £¬ ûè ÔÒ Ë° æ² ûÜ ýÙ ×£ Ë° £¬ ᶠêÝ ¡¸ ÛÜ ß£ ¡¢ ýÙ â© ¡¹ ãÀ å¥ £®ÑÑ ñý ã· ðÓ ýÉ ùÞ ÜÅ £¬ ôø ðô ÍÔ Õò ÕÎ £¬ Ò´ ì« ×¿ ä¨ æ® ëø £® úü ä¹ Í¯ û¿ ÝÖ £¬ ׺ ÍÔ Õò Üô Ðé ðô £¬ èØ £º ¡¸ ý­ á¦ í­ áÝ ù± êó Òö ßÓ ö© íº £¬ çî Üô Òö ËÛ å¥ £® ¡¹ Ô¼ æ¨ ð© ÜÁ üÀ ×ì Îü £® ã· ðÓ ËÜ èÇ 顏 Ý» ÜÒ ÊÏ â© ñý äó £¬ ÜÁ üÀ ×ì ËÜå­ Ôû £®

Since its too longs, I'll abridge the passage.  It starts out saying Jin's ancestors originated from Malgal.  That Malgal was part of Koguryo.  ~condensed~ Jin's founder is named Hambo, and he came from Koryo, at age over 60. His brother Agohobul stayed in Koryo and it was said that though their sons shall meet he will not go.  He lived with brother BoHwali.  The founder of Jin lived in Wananbu Bokgansu while Bohwali lived in Yarwe.

---

Due to time constraint, I'll post Korean sources later.  Hope this adds pepper, warhead

He's referring to wanan Agolta (èÇäÔ ä¹Íéöè), founder of Jin Dynasty, what Koreans call Gau-ran/Yau Jin. 

Gauran and Yeojin are different people....the first are Khitan Mongols, the second Jurchen Manchus. the jin dynasty i believe was jurchen, and the liao dynasty was mongol.

Though you can argue that Jin was a different entity from Koryo(by that time Korea was united by shilla but then a rebellion lead by Wang Kon toppeled the country into Koryo), they did NOT thread Koryo the same way as Song. 

FE, Jurchens considered Koryo as their BROTHER, ask them to GET AWAY FROM SONG.  That's because Jin considered themselves "Sons of Koguryo".  It's logical because their tribe was part of Koguryo- in manchu.  However, Koryo did NOT like Jin because they toppeled Barhe(Bohei), another Korean estate.  As a proof, in Hunyo 10, written by the founder of Koryo, which is like a constitution, included the phrase that condemned Jin, calling it animal and stuff.

So when Jin gave 50 camels as a present for peace(Ask yourself- Why did they?  Why not to Song?).  But Koryo exiled the embassador who brought the camels, and starved them to death.

And thus Jin and Koryo fought on.  Meanwhile, Song conquered most of China.  Seeing them as allies(like Song was the "new" Tang) against Jin, Koryo set alliance with Song.  Of course, Jin did not like it.  THey wanted peace with Koryo so they can relax and eat up Song.  But if Koryo allied with Song, Koryo could attack Jin at their back.  So Jin decided to attack Koryo, not because they didn't like them, because they HAD TO.

In conclusion, Jin wanted Sympathy from Koryo since the beginning, not like Song. 

-------------------------

Another interesting fact comes at a diplomatic success from Koryo.  There was a diplomat named Seo Hee(ßïý÷, 942~998).  He was sent to Song to set alliance stance with song, in the year 982.  However, at the same time, the Jurchens condemned them, and decided to attack(They used the incident 25 years ago to justify their invasion- the starving of 50 camels and the exile of the embassador).  WIth 800,000 men.  And they set up a camp, crossing the Yalu river, into Bong Sang (year 993). 

When all Koryo consels were scared, and were thinking about giving them land so they move out, Seo Hee came up to the King, and strongly condemned the tribute, because of his belief that "it's wrong to easily give in the land conquered by ancestor's blood".  Many agreed with him.  And then the imperial court was under heavy discussion. 

Meanwhile, the Koryo forces defeated the Jurchens at An Yong Jin.  Because of the crooked, ruggy slope that limited cavarly speed, as well as the introduction of blade-wagons(wagons with lots of pike at front, covered by shield).   Chaos ran over the Jin camp.  They did not know what to do next.  

Using that victory to advantage, Seo Hee decided to enter the enemy lines alone, and set up a treaty with the general. 

Seo Hee asked: "We have not commited any acts of condemnation to you.  Why are you invading Koryo?"

The General replied: " 2 reasons.  One, We are sons of Koguryo, and its land, ours.  But Koryo is on the land.  We came here to regain it.  Two, Koryo has set alliance to Song, and discrimiate us like barbarians.  Our reasoning is to change that stance by this invasion.

Seo Hee answered: We changed our name from Hu(meaning after)-Koguryo to Koryo.  We have also set our capital city to Pyongyang,  just like Koguryo.  Just by looking at the name, we can see who deserves the dish.  Also, we never had insulted nor ignored any border nations, ever.  We have set alliance with Song, to accept advanced materials.  If your people wants to so, we can set alliance with you as well.  However, it is the YeoJin who stands between us. 

-By this point, the general was convinced-

-he sent the same argument to the king, and he asked to retreat-

-On the way back, some horses and camels were given as a gift. -

The story ends up with Seo Hee defeating the Yeo Jins and building 6 forts along Yalu.  These forts are known as Gang Dong 6 Ju. 

[ÐÝÞÈ] ÏÐã·
"ÑÑñýã·ðÓýÉùÞÜÅ ôøðôÍÔÕòÕÎ Ò´ì«ë»ä¨æ®ëø"

[history of Jin]

Founder of Jin is called Hambo(sinofied version of Agolta), he came from Koryo, and he's in his 60's.

Also, the last king of Shilla, Ma yi Teja, was on his 20's.  The word Teja(son of King) explains it. 

Just realized that.    Damn...and I'm too lazy to go back and correct that specific phrase.

Just think this- most/every part of Jin is manchurian.  Just the leader is from Shilla. 

keep in mind that one of the sources I wrote said something like 'Shilla and Koryo were the same thing and thus were interchangeably used'

And it is known by the sources that he did come out from Koryo. <ÐÝÞÈ>ÑÑñýã·ðÓýÉùÞÜÅ ôøðôÍÔÕòÕΣ¬Ò´ì«×¿ä¨æ®ëø,  Túüä¹Í¯û¿ÝÖ£¬×ºÍÔÕòÜôÐéðô . (History of Jin: Founder is called Hambo; he came from Koryo iat his 60's and his brother Agohobol didn't follow and stayed in Korea)

The certain problem is how much generation between Ma Yi Teja and Agolta.  But it could also be that Agolta was not shilla blooded but followed his korean heritage, naming it after the king of shilla. 

But not perfectly sure.  All we know is what's written as fact.

Dam! Koryo should have united with the Jin to form a super Jin-Koryo state

 BS

There are many first hand sources written by the Jin themselves as well as the Yuan. There is no need to consult other fanatical sources and wild theories when the authentic record of Wan Yen Aguda was clearly a Jurchen tribe descended from the Wan Yen cln which has been in record since the 11th century of Liao history. The clan chief is from Silla? Show me the primary source that records that and give me the name.

"They did NOT thread Koryo the same way as Song.  "

And h

"FE, Jurchens considered Koryo as their BROTHER, ask them to GET AWAY FROM SONG.  "

The Jin also called Song its brother, its a political ruse commonly used for good relations. 

"That's because Jin considered themselves "Sons of Koguryo". "

And what fanatical source would that be?

 "It's logical because their tribe was part of Koguryo- in manchu. "

No one even know what the Jurchens spoke exactly, there are theories that Jurchens back then are not even related to modern Manchus and was largely wiped out or assimilated during the Yuan and Ming from anthrolopology studies conducted in BeiJing.

"However, Koryo did NOT like Jin because they toppeled Barhe(Bohei), another Korean estate.  "

The Jin didn't, the Qi Dan did.

Warhead - whatever you say. 

Just show me your primary sources that saids "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo" -.-

   he doesn't have to 'cause he didn't creat a thread claiming "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo"

try reply 10

huh?

"Warhead - whatever you say.  "

Yes it is whatever I say since the primary sources don't lie

"Just show me your primary sources that saids "founder of Jin dynasty is not from Shilla/Koryo" -.-"

The very fact that it says nothing easily conclude it isn't.

I hope you don't study documents from Nazi Germany, otherwise you'll think that Jews are inferior because primary sources can never be wrong....

"I hope you don't study documents from Nazi Germany, otherwise you'll think that Jews are inferior because primary sources can never be wrong.... "

You completely missed my point, which is not primary source are always correct but that its the most reliable in term of historical analysis. When there isn't even the slightest mentioning of Silla and Jin, then there isn't.

"Not necessarily true either. Historical sources omits many important details at times but I can see your point. So far I've yet to read a source both published or on the internet about the origins of the founder of the Jin dynasty descending from a Shilla noble. This is also not a minor detail either because if it were indeed true, it would definitely be mentioned by most academic sources the same way sources mention Genghis Khan to be a Mongol.  So unless somebody can come up with a valid source, I think a claim should be taken with a grain of salt."

There are sources saying that all korean and japanese people were descended from the huangdi as well. the jerchens were the jerchens that had nothing to do with ancient koreans.

because they had nothing to do with ancient koreans. why would there be anything written that says "the jerchens were not the koreans"?

it's just logically wrong to ask for a source that says "the jerchens were not ancient koreans"

just as i am unable to find a source that says "the jerchens were not from the moon". "the jerchens were not from australia" etc.

it's such a ridiculous thought that no one's written anything that says "the jerchens were not ancient koreans" because it's just an undisputed fact in most's minds except for a few korean extremists.

some articles might say that they were because they were written by those types of people.

i can start writing an article saying that the koreans were descended from the vietnamese as well.

and i can post it here. and i can ask someone to provide a source that says the koreans people were not descended from the vietnamese just like demon did to warhead. and no one will be able to find anything.

if i really do that, i will call myself an idiot.

Look before you leap.  In page 1 of this very post, reply 10, lies the contradiction to your claim.  It's also Chinese sources.  Every one of them.  ANd it was you who said in the thread "battle of talas" that chinese sources tend to be more reliable

Old Choson was North Korea + manchuria.  I see no reason why they weren't.

It is as rediculous as seeing how some Chinese scolars at that time agreed to it.

====

EDIT: All right.  Seeing how so many people in this forum never used the prev>> button ever, I've decided to press it myself and extract the raw data, so everyone can see what I've done long ago and what these people tried to deny:

I hope anyone rang their bells -.-;

"Look before you leap.  In page 1 of this very post, reply 10, lies the contradiction to your claim.  It's also Chinese sources.  Every one of them.  ANd it was you who said in the thread "battle of talas" that chinese sources tend to be more reliable"

What contradiction? You haven't even given the name of this "source" yet, wild history is competely irrelevant. So what if they are Chinese? Primary and secondary is not categorized by nationality its time that they are written.

"ANd it was you who said in the thread "battle of talas" that chinese sources tend to be more reliable"

I said that because the Chinese were the ones that documented their army, the Arabs merely glanced it. IT has nothing to do with whether how accurate the Chinese source is. In fact Korean documents are the same style and are just as accurate. I don't see how you could use this as an argument on accuracy.

But I will concede that I've missed a sentence in your reply about the origin f your source, so I appologize, but the evidence is still too limited to make any solid conformation.

Jurchens weren't the descendants of the proto-Mongolian speaking Xian-bei. Khitans were originated from Yu-wen xian-pei, who in fact were the descendants of both Xian-bei and Xiong-nu, just like Toba xian-bei.

You know, think the problem here is about communication.  The names of the sources are written in Chinese as they are supposed to.  I didn't want to put the korean pronounciations that often, because it won't make sense.  If not, we'll going to debate whether "Quishihuang" is equal to "JinShiHuang", and whether "Qin" is "Chung" or whether "Chiang Kai Shek" is "Jang Ge sok", when they are the same word in chinese but with different pronounciation.  You know, kind of the way how mandarin and cantonese differ in how it is pronounced but the word matches.

Or if you just see scribbles rather than chinese characters, tell me.  I'll try to figure out what's wrong with the unicode.

If I still didn't answer what you wanted me to answer, then the problem is related to communication, or what you want to say to me.

======

-.-  Kind of confuses me because they are mostly referred as Go Ran all the time.  At least, almost all the time.

Sorry about that.  I don't think I have more to say in this one. 

I know.  It's just a theory I wanted to share, because It has become quite popular over recent days, at least when I posted it.  The creator of Jin being Korean is still being debated. 

It would be helpful If you can define what is written published academic material, and what is internet posting.

"It would be helpful If you can define what is written published academic material, and what is internet posting."

published academid material: