As ‘Qashqary’ believed, Sihun Oghuz Turkic (not 9 Oghuz) was different from that of Eastern Gok Turk and Uighur’s language. Even it differed from the tribes such as Çıgıl and Yaghma who were their eastern neighbors. Based on this fact, Qashqari says that among Turkic languages, the lightest would be (Sihun) Oghuz and the most correct one is Toqsı and Yaghma.

Note Qashqari doesn’t mean 9 Oghuz, because:

A-     9 Oghuz’s language was almost the same with Uighur. In fact, Uighurs were on of the 9 Tiele (Chinese name for 9 Oghuz).

B-      Yaghmas were one of the 9 Oghuz tribes (‘Hududul Alem’ and ‘Gerdizi’).

C-      All those example by Qashqary about Oghuz dialect difference, are specific to Anatolian dialects and Azeri, but not Turkmen.

D-      As Chinese historians mention, Western Khanates’ language was different from that of Easterns, and this difference was represented by (Sihun) Oghuz Turkic. In other words, (Sihun) Oghuz Turkic, was the continuation of the Wetstern Gok Turks’ language.

Just to add an explanation: Yaghmas who were one of the 9 Oghuz tribes, because of some inter-tribal problems, escaped 9 Oghuz and went to Qarluqs. Even for the time being, there doesn’t exist any Turkmen tribe which also exists in Turkey or Azerbaican. See, there might be ‘tat Turkmens’ as I told you about Awshar; but they, as themselves say, are not original Turkmens and are ‘qyzylbash’es.

6-       The tribes which had a good relationship with 9 Oghuz, were Tatars and Qitays (their neighbors and allies), Qarluqs, Uighurs and Qiptchaks. But you see, all of the above-mentined tribes were considered as Sihun Oghuzes’ enemies. Each of them made Sihun Oghuzes migrated from their land, at a period of time.

7-       Even ‘Proff. Faruk Sumer’ stated in his famous book ‘Oghuzlar’ (Oghuzes) that just an old relationship could be argued among 9 Oghuzes and Oghuzes.

Turkmens are direcet descendants of 9 Oghuz. They’re considered, now, the southwestern group, because of their current location. Or else, they are originally northeasterners, as Turkic inscriptions in Mongolia mentioned. Just as a note, the tribes which were considered as ‘northern tribes’ (or in some places, ‘northeasterners’ are 9 Oghuz, Tatars, Kurikans, Kyrkizes and Yer Bayirku. Kuriakans along with Kyrkizes were considered inside the group 30 Tatar, in Turkic inscriptions. Anyhow, although modern Turkmens are classified as southwesterners, the correct standard Turkmen language is the advanced form of Uighur (especially in pronounciation), and is of eastern origin. By saying ‘the advanced form of Uighur’, I just want to give you a concept. Turkmen’s grammer is much more complicated than Uighur. It has got more suffixes. Verbs have got their own severity; I mean there are different verbs to state different qualities of quantites (for ‘to drop’, we’ve got different positions: ‘eperky, zyngqy, atqu, oqloqu’, each of them having its own quality. Or ‘to push’ ytykleky, ypyrky, sushurku). The sound system seems to be flater than Uighur. Turkmen distinguish between a long and a short vowel. Along with some other reasons, that’s why there doesn’t exist a Turkmen word wich might mean in two or more different ways (but consider the case for Azeri: ‘var’ means both ‘go’ and ‘exists’- Ozbek ‘keche’ means both ‘late; night’ and ‘passing’). It has preserved more of the old structure. It has got, even, some particular vocabulary and grammer which shows its similarity with old Altaic tongue (use of the proposition ‘qa’ in question sentences, as in ‘kymqa’, ‘myqa’, neqa’, having no open ending, and words describing mood’); it’s proved that Oghuz Qaqa was the founder of the Hunnic empire. All I mean, is that correct standard Turkmen differs very much from Turkish or Azerbaijani. Only southern Turkmen tribes and their conversational language could be compared to Azerbaijani and Anatolian Turkic. Also, Turkish and Azeri people just can’t pronounce ‘q’. Even ‘gh’ is not used. Only a very very slight form of ‘gh’ is used as in ‘dagh’ (mountain). This is not the only difference in dialects, but one of the most important cases.

Turkish and Azeri people just can’t pronounce ‘q’. Even ‘gh’ is not used. Only a very very slight form of ‘gh’ is used as in ‘dagh’ (mountain). This is not the only difference in dialects, but one of the most important cases.

Now, you might say Turkish people and language are similar to Turkmen. I would say, present day Turkic dialects, except for Kiptchak speaking tribes, are all intelligible for any Turkic speaker and shares many common structure and vocabulary. But, as for Turkish and Turkmen, you could only follow these similarities in southern tribes like Kökleng. But as for northern tribes (which are Mongoloid and their languages are the most correct Turkmen tongue) like Salyr and Saryq, no similarity could be traced, with Turkish and Azerbaijani.

These are the reasons I use to reach my own conclusion. See, we all know about those history books which say Turkish and Azeris are of Oghuz origin. But, ‘which Oghuz?’ might be a good questions to raise.

Turkey and Azerbaijan Turks are also "Oguz" Turks. Why is this so hard to understand, there are even the same Turkmen tribes in Turkey and Turkmenistan, who weave the same carpets, have very similar accents and tradditions.

Seljuks were Oguz, Ottomans were Oguz (Kayi), KaraKoyunlu and Akkoyunlu were Oguz, Afsharid's etc etc were Oguz. There are Salyr Turks in Turkey aswell, they have villages and preserve their customs.

 

The Eretna Beylik were Uygur Turks, Turks who arrived with the Timurids may have not all been "Oguz", those who arrived with the Golden Horde....

 

There were key periods of Turks migrations to the West from Turkistan.

 

1. Mass Oguz Turk migrations

2. Migrations with the Golden Horde

3. Migrations from Timurids

4. Migrations when Ottomans suffered defeat in the Kafkas, Crimea, Balkans

5. Migrations in WW1

 

Gok-Turuk

C-      All those example by Qashqary about Oghuz dialect difference, are specific to Anatolian dialects and Azeri, but not Turkmen.

 

 

No, this is very misleading, at the time Qashqary wrote his great literary work there were no terms as "Anatolian" or "Azeri" dialects. Anatolia had not been fully populated by Turks at the time. The Seljuks were ruling in today's Azerbaycan region and Iran these were clearly "Oguz Turks" which Qashqary clearly calls "Turkmens". Qashqary is referrring to the descendants of todays Turkmenistan, Iran Turks, Azerbaycan, Caucaus, Turkey, Balkan Turks.

 

 

See, there might be ‘tat Turkmens’ as I told you about Awshar; but they, as themselves say, are not original Turkmens and are ‘qyzylbash’es.

 

This is also very misleading, Turkmens outside Turkmenistan especially "Alevi" in Turkey

openly state they are "Turkmens" and say they kept the culture most alive. 

They never say their not original Turkmen's they say their full original Turkmens.

 

The Oguz Turks that migrated to the West were a huge tribal confederacy who united

under the banner of "Oguz". 

 

Azerbaycan Turkish accent does have "q"-"gh" sound, so does Turkey in spoken language.

 

Turkmenistan Turkmen can easily be read by other "Oguz" Turkish dialect speakers. Turkey and Azerbaycan Turks Turkish is totally intellegeble as is that of the Balkans, Caucaus, Middle East. Turkmen Turkish is mutually intellegeble to Turkey and especially Azerbaycan Turks. Even Karakalpak Turkish is very similar to that spoken by Turks West of the region.

 

From Turkmenistan to the Balkans, most the Turks can be called "Oguz Turks"-Turkmens. They have lot's in common, obviously linguistically but also historically, and culturally. For example, "Karacaoglan Epic", Karacaoglan was an Oguz Turk who was from today's Turkmenistan, from there he migrated through Iran, Azerbaycan to Turkey. Today the epic of "Karacagolan" is loved in by Turks of all these areas and recently its four hundred year anniversary was celebrated in Turkmenistan, Turkey, Azerbaycan.

 

Its normal for tribes to have battles with each other, however the conclulsion of the story of the "Legendary Oguz" is that when united look what they can achieve

These Turk tribes united under the banner of "Oguz Turks" and became unbelievably successfull and influenced most of the known world.

 

Yeah, they might be of Oghuz origin,but for sure, they're not of 9 Oghuz origin. All the similarities you talk about is just among southern tribes, I told you. Do you want me to speak my own dialect, and tell me if you understand it or not, huh? A simple sentence which is also about our discussion would be: 'onno netyp nalytmaqay?'

There was clearly two different Oghuz groups, please read all the reasons I've written. Even at the time of Köl Tıgın Qaghan, aside from 9 Oghuzes (Turkmens), there existed another Oghuz groups I'm all talking about. Read my posts. By the way, seems like you haven't studied Qashqary well. Examples like 'barasi yer' (instead of Barqu yer), or 'ben' instead of 'men' are specific to Azeri and Anatolian Turkish. You haven't studied my posts carefully.

Virtually all Moslem historians state that ANY Turk who became Moslem was called Turkmen. Also, lots of people (aside from Turkmens themselves) were called by Iranians as Turkmen, just because they were NOMADS.

The Turkmen language you're talking about and you think close to Anatolian and Azeri dialects are southern accents, I told you about. Note, Modern day Turkmen langauge is based on informal, CONVERSATIONAL forms of southern dialects. Northern dialects differ very much from your language. Here's some other sentences in my tongue (Salyr Turkmen):

'ongoraqay sang, etyp bylchek yanaq, tushnukluk kep ketyr ortaq. Kentyngyk qala, yoneche manga qa oylonyanyngyq ayityanchang.'

Totally, so far, you haven't defended your idea and wasn't able to show I'm wrong. First, please read my posts carefully line by line and then start writing against it, if you think I'm wrong. I'm talking based on historical documents and some linguistic knowledge I've got.

All Turkish people have had arguements with me lately, no surprise to see an original Turkmen (Tangriberdi) who's become a Turk started this agian. Invest more time reading the posts or else stop talking on my behalf. I didn't say langauge difference shows being Turk or not. I said languages difference shows the speakers are different people.

Yep, Azeris and Turkish people can't pronounce 'q'. By the way, Farsi itself writes 'q', but pronounce 'gh'. Only Kurds, and some people like from Isfahan and Yazd are able to pronounce 'q'.

To all forumers investing time and energy on this thread (at least for to have a glance). See, if you're against me, try to support your own idea by giving proof that shows all those numbers and people like Kol Tigin, Qashqary and most of historians have told us lies. Or else, we'll be only listening to your IDEAs.

See, old Farsi didn't have 'q'. It is believed, 'q' existed in a mother European language. Anyhow, in old Iranian texts, instead, 'kh' was used. present day 'qaf' is an import from Arabic. 'Q' should be pronounced the way Kurds do; tougher than 'gh'. But modern Iranians, I mean the standard form today, doesn't distinguished between 'q' and 'gh'. But for you, they're not the same, are they?

       The name of Oguz is derived from the word of "ok" (arrow). The word of ok has also the meaning of "tribe" in Turkish language. As a matter of fact, this word was translated into Chinese language as "tribe" even in those periods (for example On-ok = Ten tribes).

       Accordingly, the suffix of z that was the plural suffix in the ancient Turkish language was attached to the word "ok" and "the name of "Oguz" was derived thereof. In fact, the name of "Oguz" is not an "ethnical" name and it is a word that directly defined the meaning of "Turkish tribes".

       The name of "Oguz" has been firstly observed in the 1st inscription ("Six Oguz tribal union") in the banks of the Barlık Stream (Ulu-kem: flows into Yenisey River). It is the subject matter that 6 tribes had integrated and formed a "tribal union". Since the inscription belonged to their beys, it should be admitted that these Oguz people survived within these environs in the form of a union. However, it seems possible to date back the identification of Oguz style to the very ancient periods.

       Within the Chinese resources, a tribe named as O-kut (there was not the name of Turk in those periods) pertaining to the 2nd century BC was cited. This name was the Chinese form of the Turkish name of "Ogur". This difference has resulted from the difference of pronunciation of some Turkish communities that spelled the voice of z as r in Turkish language. In other words, it is the expression of the name of Oguz in R Turkish. The region of Tabargatay-Kobdo was indicated as the region of O-kut people within the Chinese resources. As it has been known, this region was a region of Turks.

 

So, necessarily 9 Oghuzes and Sihun Oghuzes were not the same soceity.

Misleading, the terminology "Oguz" does not refer to ethnicity or race, it refers to confederations of Turk tribes. The Toquz-Oguz were sometimes cited as the "nine tribes of the Turks", Oguz was a pollitical name not one of ethnicity, as they were all Turks. Therefore trying to split this from that just because of pollitical name is ridiculous as they were all Turks.

 

Well, the name Qazaq is a new word; but could you say their ancestors didn't exist before 1500 AD?

 

No, all of humanity has ancestors, before 1500 AD ofcourse Kazak Turks had ancestors, there a branch of Turks.

 

The same applies of Seljuks. They're ancestors of today Turkish people, although the name differs.

 

No, Seljuk's were formed by Oguz Turks and traced descendancy to "Oguz Khan". They began in today's Turkmenistan and are the reason why most Turks West of Turkenistan area are Oguz Turk.

 

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/7199/turkmap9vf.jpg">     The Seljuk TUrks in Yellow on the map began in the Turkmenistan area, there ancestors today are the Turks of Azerbaycan, Turkey, Turkmenistan. The people of Turkmenistan are the least mixed of these Turks.      But the most correct Turkmen tongue today is spoken by Salyr, Saryq, Ersaris.    That's subjective. Plus there are many "Salyr" in Turkey, so many villages are called "Salyr".

A Turk-men doesn't need to state and brag he/she's a Turkmen, other's should realise and call the person a Turk-men that is a true Turkmen

Its somthing to embrace and promote, not hide away and supress. There is no Iron Curtain anymore and alot of interest in promoting the connections of the Oguz Turks

Bulldog, it's quite obvious you haven't been able to defend yourself against those numbers. You're just trying to get converstaion to another place which is not about the topic. I can, forever, this way:

People like Nasreddin Hoja is also famous in Iran. So Iranians are Turks as well?

For the time being, only people from Turkey are called Turk. I meant Turkish people. That's all.

You guys probably want to me say 'oh, brother (this is the word heard from virtually of Turkish nationalists or should I say country lovers), we're all the same nation (so where are all those geographical groups who make different looks and physique). Our languages are all understandable (totally lie. You've got to practice a lot and if you do so, so you LEARN a new dialect). We should be proud of our history (every empire had its own advantages and disadvantages, what's the pride for?). We should be united and a lot more. That's why when I say we're not the same people, you get angry or think I'm racist.

Waffling or not, what you do is just going off topic. Do you know what this topic is about? Have you brought any proofs against those numbers I wrote?

Turkmens have not much in common with Turkish or Azeri people. Count from language to culture. The structure of the languages are different. You also (like modern day Mongols) lack the use of 'aqa'. The way a Turkmen (especiall northern tribes) speak are quite different from a Turkish; even when it comes to express yourself:

You're staying off topic.

Gok Toruk can actually speak Persian, that gives him first hand access to a wealth of 800 y/o + information on Turks.  I would go by his word any day than a propagandist such as yourself Bulldog, I believe you have been to Iran as much as I believe you are half spanish and native british.

Thank you Zagros, for your support. After all, Bulldog saw I've got my own friends and found out that he didn't had to worry about my credit here. Instead of being off topic, bring facts that shows my numbers are lies.

The name 'Salar' is observed in Uighur texts which dates back to before 1000 A.D. They were one of the Oghuz tribes.