Balochistan - Start of civil war?
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Topic: Balochistan - Start of civil war?
Posted By: maqsad
Subject: Balochistan - Start of civil war?
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 18:26
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Thousands riot after killing of Baluch chief By Justin Huggler, Asia Correspondent Published: 28 August 2006 Thousands of Pakistanis defied a government curfew yesterday, setting fire to shops, banks and cars, in protest against the killing of a 79-year-old warlord. In one town, protesters set off a bomb, damaging a government building, and at least three demonstrators died. Nawab Akbar Bugti, known as the Tiger of Baluchistan, was leader of an ethnic insurgency that has at times threatened to drag Pakistan into civil war. He was killed on Saturday when the Pakistani army tracked him down to a cave in the mountains, where he was holed up with between 50 and 80 of his relatives and tribal forces. The military called in air strikes on the caves and sent in a huge force of commandos on the ground. At least 21 commandos, including six officers, and 37 of Bugti's men, are believed to have been killed in the fighting. The Pakistani government said that he was killed when the cave collapsed in the exchange of fire. But it appears more likely that the cave was directly hit in air strikes. Most observers believe that the military meant to kill Bugti. The killing provoked demonstrations throughout the capital of Baluchistan, Quetta, and there were violent protests as far away as Karachi. "The government has pushed Baluchistan into a never-ending war," said Hasil Bizinjo, a senior figure of Baluch Yakjehti, or the Baluch Solidarity Alliance. It was not an unexpected death for a man who headed his own tribal army and had in effect declared war on the Pakistani state. Only last year he was openly directing ground battles against the Pakistani army from his family home - a mud-walled desert fort. Bugti was educated at Aitchison College, an elite public school in Lahore modelled on Eton, and then at Oxford. Yet he is said to have killed his first man at the age of 12, and legend has it that he killed as many as 100 men to avenge the death of his son in 1992. As soon as he finished his Western education, he returned to Baluchistan to live by his ancient tribal codes. It was a life that pitted him constantly against the Pakistani authorities. Many of the tribesmen of Baluchistan - possibly the majority - do not want to be part of Pakistan. Baluchistan has barely changed since Alexander the Great passed through on his conquests. It is a vast land of desert mountains that lies between Pakistan, Iran and Afghanistan. The Baluch tribesmen have never accepted that their land belongs to anyone else but themselves. The British never fully suppressed them, and had to forge a power-sharing deal with Baluchistan's tribal leaders, Bugti's ancestors among them. Modern Pakistan has had a strained relationship with them. Baluchistan is barren, and life is harsh. But beneath its parched ground lies Pakistan's most valuable mineral resources. The tribesmen accuse the government in distant Islamabad of bleeding their province of these precious resources but putting nothing back. A massive new port that Pakistan is building at Gwadar, on the coast of Baluchistan, has inflamed feelings further and the tribesmen say thousands of outsiders will move in and erode their culture and loosen their grip on the land. Bugti, the leader of one of the most powerful tribes in Baluchistan, became the effective leader of the rebel Baluchistan Liberation Army. He had fought against the government before, in the 1970s, when a Baluch rebellion was suppressed by the military. But he had also been allied to the government in Islamabad at times over the years, serving briefly as both governor and chief minister of the province. It is believed his attitudes hardened after his youngest son, Salal, was killed by pro-government tribesmen, and last year the tribesmen openly rebelled against the government again. |
Replies:
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 18:29
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Now is this uproar over his death going to die down or are things going to escalate? http://dawn.com/2006/09/02/top1.htm
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 18:50
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Oh please. You should know better and this isnt even thought provoking. 8000 protestors out of 3 million Balochis, most of whom are voting for the man who ended up killing Bugti - the media hype is just simply because Bugti was loved by foriegn nations wanting a piece of Balochistan, now who's going to be their next puppet is the question. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 18:59
| What do you think of my second post, where Iran is implicated? |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 19:29
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Where does it talk about Iran? ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 19:47
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http://www.washingtontimes.com/world/20050122-105607-1870r.htm Pakistan assails Iran over growing Baluch insurgency  By Massoud Ansari LONDON SUNDAY TELEGRAPH KARACHI, Pakistan — Pakistan has blamed Iran for fueling a growing insurgency in Baluchistan, the strategically sensitive province where militant tribesmen have launched a series of terrorist attacks in recent weeks. Senior government officials say Iran is encouraging "intruders" from within its own Baluch community to cross the 550-mile border with the Pakistani province and give support to the rebels. "All this violence is a part of a greater conspiracy," a senior Pakistani government official said. "These militants would not be challenging the government so openly without the backup of a foreign hand." Pakistan's support would be essential for any U.S.-led action against Iran, whose fundamentalist Muslim regime was last week put firmly in the sights of the second Bush administration by Vice President **** Cheney. "You look around the world at potential trouble spots — Iran is right at the top of the list," Mr. Cheney said. Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) agency set up a unit in the provincial capital, Quetta, last year to monitor suspected Iranian activity in Baluchistan. Officials say that in addition to directly supporting the insurgency, Tehran's state-controlled radio has launched a propaganda campaign against Islamabad. "Radio Tehran broadcasts between 90 and 100 minutes of programs every day which carry propaganda against the Pakistan government," said a former interior minister. He added that Iran was suspected of providing financial, logistical and moral backing for the insurgency. Iran is said to be taking advantage of unrest among tribesmen who claim to have been denied the benefits of Baluchistan's natural-gas fields. Earlier this month, rebels disrupted gas production in a series of rocket and mortar attacks, which killed eight persons. However, Islamabad is delaying a formal complaint to Tehran in the hope that private diplomatic channels may prove more effective. Meanwhile, large numbers of troops are hunting rebels in the province. Pakistani officials believe that Tehran — already furious at Pakistan's support for the U.S.-led war on terrorism — has stepped up its activity in Baluchistan because of its anger at the construction of a vast deep-water port at Gwadar, close to the border, which it fears could be used by Washington as a base for monitoring and infiltrating Iran. Washington believes Iran is pursuing an advanced nuclear-weapons program in addition to sponsoring international terrorism, and has repeatedly accused Tehran of fomenting trouble within Iraq. Last week, journalist Seymour Hersh reported in the New Yorker that U.S. special forces had carried out recent reconnaissance missions inside Iran to identify nuclear, chemical and missile sites that could be targeted. Although the Bush administration brushed aside the claims, the report heightened the belief that the United States might be preparing to take action. |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 20:32
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There' actually three countries that want Eastern Balochistan - Iran, Afghanistan and India. Iran and India probably for themselves, Afghanistan is just a puppet. Iran has its own Baloch problem to worry about though, but I think that Iran and Pakistan have been working together on the Balochistan situation. It's all to do with Gwadar, gas, and the Chinese have actually suffered some casulties from kidnappers that have been sponsored by other countries. On the Baloch issue, I think China is the only trustable partner for Pakistan. Why does that Washington Times article say that Tehran is furious at Pakistan for support on the war on terror by the way? Pakistan has actually said it wouldnt support an attack on Iran from what i read. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 21:25
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Perhaps Iran is furious because the war on terror is actually war on pathans. War on pathans means the subjugation of pathans will increase and then after the brits and the yanks leave afghanistan then ISI will roll out Talibanization II on the region and marginalize Iran's imperial plans east of their borders. Also war on terror might mean the US will attack and annex khuzestan and cut Iran's oil income by 80% who knows. Speaking of Oil I cant understand how Balochistan has 6 trillion barrels of Oil but pakis can't dig it out? Shouldnt pakis be running there and scraping it out with their fingernails considering how poor the country is and how high the price of oil is now? |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 04-Sep-2006 at 21:52
That's a bit over imginative and doesnt make sense.
True, but Pakistan wouldnt support the attack on Hhuzestan if you believe the comments made by them.
Where did you get that figure from? It's got a load of gas, and probably oil somewhere. 6 trillion barrs would make a huge difference to the economy, even at the present rate it's growing now. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 00:41
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Oh please. Start of a civil war? In a province that has always been a PML land. By a tribe which is hated by the rest anyhow?
Great analysis, you should work for the CIA.
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Posted By: Digvijay
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 10:16
Why not? Balooch people are very independent minded. And Bugti wanted to be a martyr and Musharraf granted his wish. Unless there is reall democracy in pakistan where the pakistani states can really take there own decisions there will be chaos. It makes no sense that a rich province like Baloochistan should be the poorest in terms of infrastructure. -Digs |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 10:27
Who said this tribe would play anything more than a small part in the civil war? Afghanistan would support Baloch independence(from pakistan) because they want all or most of that province and have made no secret of it. They also claim that entire region including NWFP since the expiration of the Durrand line do they not? And if Iran is indeed supporting the rebels with radio broadcasts, weapons, money and intelligence why is that such a ridiculous assumption? Seriously if Baloches were given a choice between part of Pakistan and part of an independent and prosperous afghanistan which would they choose? Their own kind or those they regard as Indians? |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 10:32
http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/CP65.Grare.FINAL.pdf#search=%22balochistan%20trillion%20oil%20%22 - http://www.carnegieendowment.org/files/CP65.Grare.FINAL.pdf Now then....does it make sense why things are "stirring up" in there? |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 10:54
I'll read it later, but 6 trillion sounds a bit much. Dont think the oil rich countries have that much. Eastern Balochistan is highly sort after by foreign companies and nations, because of it's location (Arabian Sea), its proven gas reserves and if the oil is true that would be a big asset..should change the financial outlook of Pakistan at least. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 11:05
It's a ridiculous assumption because you dont know the definition of civil war and
The Baloch arent the same ethnciity as the Afghans - they have voted for the PML instead of Baloch National Party so it gives an indication where the majority of their loyalties lie despite what Hindustan Times might try and convince you of. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 11:42
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Now this one does not mention oil but it does mention that some of these tribes actually supported the USSR during the soviet invasion. So gawadar would have become a soviet warmwater port if Balochistan had been annexed by the bolsheviks. http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DG25Df01.html - http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/DG25Df01.html
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 11:50
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Alright, so? We know all this (except perhaps the oil reserves). Fact is there is no civil war in Balochistan, and there isnt going to be one because there isnt enough support for it. Sardarism is gradually being rid, and ordinary Baloch arent interested in war with the government. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 12:22
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They are 63 tribes. 3 Have a problem.
And the Afghanis learnt their lesson back in 1961 at Bajur. And mots of them live here anyhow.
Finally pakistan has nukes, so what you say is a moot point.
If push comes to shove Pakistan would USE them. On Iran, of Afganistan, on India, on Oman or anybody who trys to interfere.
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Posted By: Digvijay
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 13:01
Not really. Pashtuns of NWFP are really not under Paki central control and Paki army *rarely* shows the courage to enter the tribal strongholds. Similarly in Baloochistan ordinary balooch is fed up of discrimination meted out to them and want more control of there area so that infrastructure develops and they can lead a better life. And yes that province is on the brink of civil war. -Digs |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 13:25
Vivek, ordinary Baloch are not fighting. The Sardars like Bugti, were holding back development to gain support of the people.
NWFP is under central government control - FATA is not really. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Digvijay
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 14:50
Get you bearings right Malizai or is it Sparten? I am not known as Vivek. Ordinary Baloch is up in arms. You are towing the party line. It ain't gonna work. Bugti did represent the national Baloch sentiment. -Digs |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 18:37
95% of Balochis arent doing anything. 5% of Balochis which represent a couple of thousand people are striking and protesting. More than half od Balochis are glad the Sardar is gone. look at the election results, most ordinary Balochis voted PML-Q, the man who was chasing Bugti. Most ordinary Balochis do not want Sardarism - they want development. Sardarism is holding them back. Even Bugti's own tribe had deserted him. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 22:29
Can you back that up? Link? |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 05-Sep-2006 at 23:32
http://www.jang.com.pk/election2002/party_position.htm - http://www.jang.com.pk/election2002/party_position.htm
You can see the statistics for yourself here. Bugtis Party is JWP which secured a total of 4 seats, PmL- Q won 14 seats. So this means that three times as many people in Balochistan wanted him out the way than were supporting him. If you want to go back to previous elections you will find 100% support for such parties who were chasing the Baloch Nationalists who are about as popular as the unpopular "Pukhtun" nationalists in the Frontier region. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 01:36
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Why cant Pak hold a plebsitice in Baloochistan & let the people decide for themselves what they want. This would surely be the best way to end this problem. As pointed out by telde & others, nobody supports these baloochi nationalists. They also dont get the votes in the election. Neither the people of Pakistan nor those of baloochistan are with these sardars or whatever they are called. The problem seems to be just a handiwork of Iran, Afghanistan & India for their own vested interests. Another factor is that Pak is no longer a military autocracy or dictatorship. It has becaome a full fledged mature democracy which guarantees freedom & liberty to all its individuals & has become the most powerfull & one of the most prosperous developing countries capable of beating anybody in the world (they did destroy the Soviets in Afghanistan, routed India four times, helped the US defeat Saddam,s regime & stopped the Al Qaida). They are at the forefront of promoting peace & harmony in the whole world (they have banned so many terrorist organisations). A plebstice in Baloochistan would have multiple benefits : 1. It will put an end to the balooch problem once & for all. After all who can dispute a democratically held poll under the UN. They are going to win handsdown anyway & the baloochi nationalist will not be able to show their face! 2. It will Further bolster the already good image of Pakistan as a protector of democracy, freedom & liberty. 3. It will serve as a good warning to Iran, Afghanistan & India to stop their perverted interests in fostering undesirable events & consequesnces in another free country's internal affairs & show them the true might of Pakistan 4. The biggest beneficiaries will be the balooch people. With the final end of disturbance & establishment of full peace, they will be able to live happily thereafter. 5. Pak can further develop its economy be leaps & bounds by inviting more Chinese companies to produce oil, thereby benefitting the whole population of Pak with the resultant economic prosparity akin to the oil boom of the mid east. 6. With its already powerfull military & the history of being a peace loving & promoting nation & the new found economic boom in the form of oil riches, it can challenge the pre eminent position of Saudi as the leader of the Sunni muslim world & replace it. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 01:46
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We did have a plebicute in Balochistan, in 1947. They chose to loin Pakistan, they were not forced.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 01:59
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Is it ? Sorry, I was not aware. Will you please post some links to that effect. I think the disturbance started after that & has incresed in the recent past. So a plebstice is more beneficial to Pak now. Its not only the balooch problem which will be solved, look at the other bigger benefits I have mentioned ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 04:13
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You do a plebicite in Assam, Nagaland Kashmir, and then we will think about it.
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 10:11
All this really is nonsense again. Look at it like this. Nationalist & independence parties are allowed to run in Pakistan, they are banned in India or their results are meaningless in the world's greatest "democracy". In Balochistan, three independence parties are running, JWP, BNP, BNW, and in total they secure about 20% of Baloch votes. PPP and PML usually win more than 90% of the vote (except last election..MMA and PML secured some 80% of seats).
In India, the DMK Party won 50 seats in Tamil Nadu State in the elections there in 1962, and the following year, the 16th Amendment was introduced which prohibited secessionist parties from participating in Indian elections. In Pakistan at the same time, the real bad dictatorship allowed Awami League secessionists to take part in the 1971 elections, and have since then allowed secessionist parties to take part.
The NorthEast and even Tamil Nadu dont really even want to be with the Punjab based Delhi government. Autonomous State Demand Comittee won every single seat in Karbi Anglong district. Now North Cachar seats are also won by them. They have a right to autonomy, but arent given it. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 10:37
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Leave it to Pakistan to send an army to assassinate a crippled man in a Cave. ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 12:22
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Leave it to Pakistan to clamp down on an entity which is attacking the state institutions.
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Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 12:40
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Leave it to Pakistan to have an entity which is attacking its state institutions from a cave... (this is a joke before anybody takes it the wrong way) |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 13:03
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Leave it to India to have more insurgencies than most countries have provinces. ------------- |
Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 13:09
Leave it to South Asia board to have the longest tit for tat fights. 
------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 06-Sep-2006 at 13:24
Is this some extra subtle form of sarcasm? Even a pakistani nationalist wouldn't type so much over such a broad spectrum.  |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 01:48
I understand & appreciate what you are trying to say & also agree with you. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 01:51
My dear friend, this thread is about Balochistan. Let us stick to the subject. We could have another thread for the names you mentioned. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 01:55
Same thing again dear, I think some noble gentleman was already requested to provide a list of the 17 insurgencies in india which he had claimed. The forum has still not seen that list. Are you only making a claim, or you would prefer to support / document it. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 06:53
Tamil Nadu is very different to the other ones. The main problems Tamil's have is that they feel Hindi is being forced apon them. Other problems include lack of funds being sent their way and the lack of protection of fishermen in international waters. Tell you the truth I partly agree with them. My solution would be to make a second capital in Bangalore and allow them to govern Southern India alot more effectivly than Dehli is. From what I've seen the independence movement is now merely a few intellectuals and college students and if this is the case then it reminds me of a article I read about Gujarat. It stated that Gujarat and Maharastra should leave the ROI (Republic of India) as these are the two most industrialised states and funds are being diverted to the rest of the country. I don't think anybody seriously expects both Gujarat and Maharastra gain independence. If there was a strong movement in Tamil Nadu even then they wouldn't gain independence simply because Tamil Nadu does so much for the rest of India. Have a look at this Wikipedia page (i now your dislike for it, but these figures arn't made up): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tamil_Nadu Pay close attention to the Industry and Mining sections. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 07:40
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The opposition of the tamil people to hindi was a consequence of the aryan invasion theories taught in history. (Who would like to speak the language of the invaders) As the people are increasingly realising that there was nothing like an aryan invasion, that opposition to Hindi is going away. Further the fully free democracy existing in india ensure that contrasting opinions would always find a large no. of supporters. Thus while DMK took the dravida plank, the AIADMK took the Bramhin plank for wooing the voters. Both have been in & out of power & shared loyalties with the nationalistic parties in the centre. And for a record no tamil ever wanted a tamil country. It was only opposition to the Hindi language. Now nobody even oposes Hindi. There would always be fringe elements in any democratic society who would try to take advantage of emotions to gather votes, but they are an exception. The LTTE had for some time presented the Idea of tamil nadu becoming a part of tamil eelam, but when Prabhakaran realised that a greater tamil Eelam would make the Sri lankan Tamil part just a fringe district of tamil nadu, he gave up the idea. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 07:48
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As for Maharashtra & Gujarat, what you said is often circulated as jokes. I am from Mumbai, we like to say the same about it. We want Mumbai to be given autonomy as the money we earn is sent to Interior maharashtra. Now Mumbai is the capital of Maharashtra. should we become another nation ? These are only a few examples, everybody wants to be able to generate & use their own funds & uses this plank to woo the voters. You ahve to realise that India is a truly democratic polity which guarantees freedom of speech & liberty in principle & practice. this plurality of our culture has ensured the survival of the oldest civilization on earth all through the ages. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 07:52
A simple google search will show you that is not the case. But the ones that do want a seperate country are a minority, an extremely small minority. |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 07:56
My point was that everywhere you'll always have a few people saying "we want freedom". Obviously the majority of us do not, Gujarati's are happy with India as are Mahrathis (my mum comes from Mumbai). |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 08:57
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I dont know where are you from, but I like to give more credance to the real life than Google. I have stayed in the heart of Tamilnadu (interiors as well as the big cities) for more than 3 years & since my profession is dealing with people (in thousands), am in a better position to understand them & appreciate their feelings. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 09:12
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I'm sure you did but I think you completly misunderstood me. On google the first and only link on Tamil independence is: http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/98/0701.html - http://www.geocities.com/tamiltribune/98/0701.html I was trying to say that that is the only link I could find on the net. As there are no more it shows that Tamils want to be a part of India, like you are saying. (To sum it up I am actually agreeing with you) |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 16:03
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Of course you're all correct, no Tamil Nadu wanted an independent state..ever. DMK of course are not the independence party they say they are.
After that bit of sarcasm, a check of the seats won by DMK (who incidentally have had to drop their secessionist policy since the change of the Indian Constitution that prohibits them from doing so in order to participate in the Indian elections). will show that many of Tamil Nadu voters want to be seperated from India. In fact, 12 out of 39 seats were won by DMK in the last election.
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5180/elect99.html - http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5180/elect99.html
------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 17:40
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The DMK is not only based in Tamil Nadu but in various "dravidian"
states, so asking for a free Tamil Nadu is really on there agenda when
they're expanding into other states(!) DK never wanted a seperat Tamil Nadu, they wanted a seperate South India of states which were mainly from the Madras Presidency.  It's no longer the DMK's policy to fight for a seperate Tamil Nadu. I challenge you to find me a link stating that that is their current objective? |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 19:01
Reason why it's not DMK policy to get a seperate state of Tamil Nadu anymore is because of the Sixteenth Amendment of the Indian Constitution, which prevents any secessionist party from taking part in the elections for the Indian leadership..they can still compete for autonomy to some extent which is what they run for. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 07-Sep-2006 at 19:15
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Well in that case you can't say that people vote for it because they want independence, becasue the party can't give them it. Are you aware DMK allied itself with Congress in the last elections? edit: just read the second part of your post. It's like I said above, give the South it's own capital and then everyone stops complaining. 1) They would have a government looking after only their needs 2) They would no longer have to worry about Hindi 3) More or less have an autonomous region apart from Defence. |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 08-Sep-2006 at 07:05
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I don't think thats a good idea from India's perspective. If the south has autonomy it would probably drift away from the north. Its already richer ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 06:45
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DMK has also at times aligned with the BJP, the nationalistc party. And they dont want a capital in the south as that status would go to Bangalore & Karnataka is their biggest enemy. Furhter, nobody in the south wants a separate capital as they are all opposed to each other. Anuj, what you say is true, but the view was prevalent in the erstwhile madras Presidency, because the entire south india was at that time the Madras presidency. (except the nizamshahi which was as big as tamilnadu itself.) even at that time, people were unified in opposing hindi as the national language & not on a southern capital. The malyalees, kannads & the telgus would never tolerate a tamil capital. & For the record, the tamils are not a majority in the south india. With the reorganisation of state this problem died out. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Sep-2006 at 06:48
Omar, the south is in no way richer than the north. None of the southern states top the economic lists on any count. They are more prosperous than some of the northern states, but not the north. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 15:52
Arent they more literate and better educated than the north? Also..all the R&D facilities from companies like IBM, Hewlet Packard, Boeng etc go to Bangalore not Delhi. This is a bit stereotypical but don't people associate southies with brains and northies with brawn? |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 17:48
| The north has a higher GDP though. I've read in plenty of occaisiosn that Gujarat and Maharastra are the two most industrialised states in India, what ever that means. |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 18:33
A higher GDP or a higher GDP per capita? GNP means nothing and GNP per capita means everything. Are you misquoting? What about figures that hint towards future prosperity in the global information age? I can think of a few: Average IQ, Math and science scores of graduating highschoolers, Number of PHDs produced per capita and total, number of Universities total and per capita, lieracy rates, foreign direct investment in high tech industries on a large scale such as by HP, IBM, Boeng, Cisco etc. "Industrialized" just means theres a lot of factory production but the third world is moving into a different era of industrialization and the whole world is moving to a different era of global information trading and exchange so I am not sure blue collar industrialization means as much today as it did 100 years ago. |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 17-Sep-2006 at 19:02
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If i may just take the liberty to interject myself into this debate, but a point to note is that a lot employees in the IT sector are from the north and other parts of the country, these resentments had surfaced during the various riots. ------------- |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 04:23
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Well the GSDP per capita for the following states are: Tamil Nadu: Rs. 30416.75 Gujarat: Rs. 33194.85 Maharastra: Rs. 34432.79 I think we all expected Maharstra to come on top, it is afterall the financial hub of India. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 04:49
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In all terms the north leads the way. Most industrialized - Maharashtra, gujarat, haryana. GDP - Maharashtra, Gujarat, UP Per capita income GDP - Maharashtra, gujarat, haryana Per capita income - Haryana & Punjab Most industrialized & biggest city - Delhi, Bombay. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 04:50
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What about figures for baloochistan. Looking at them their demand seems to be highly justified. Kashmir has one of the highest per capita incomes in India. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 04:53
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Yes, since the Indian forces there are added.
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Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 05:04
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..and are constantly blowing up the place so everything needs restoring. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 05:12
Thats right. they are always blowing up the coward terrorists, who hide behind the civilians & dont have the guts to come out in the open. Like Israel did in Lebonon & the US & West are doing in Iraq & Afghanistan 8 nemerous airlines are doing to suspected terrorists all over the world. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 05:14
The salaries of indian troops are unlike pakistan not added to any state GDP or income. So you are sounding too naive & ignorant. I prefer using politically correct language. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 05:50
Interesting comparison. ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 06:10
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Dissimiliar problems, similiar solutions.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Omar al Hashim
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 07:08
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Powerful armies loosing to the mujahadeen while inflicting massive destruction on the
local population seems to be consistant factor. I thought you were pro-indian? ------------- |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 07:37
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I am not pro anybody . I am only pro truth. And where have the powerfull armies lost. US has won, west has won, Israel has won, Russians have won, the northern alliance has won with their support too. Their will always be discontent of some type or the other fanned by bigots & religious fanatics. that cannot be taken as a sign of defeat. It's only that this countries are too civilized & respect human rights thats otherwise wiping out the supporters of terrorism is not difficult militarily. the thing is that these countries want to save misinformed civlians who get white washed by religious propoganda, which is the easiest thing to do in an undeveloped world. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 07:38
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If theft & dacoity or rape still exists in the US or europe, it does,nt mean that the Police forces & the gobvernments of these countries have been defeated. That's an operational law & order problem.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 09:12
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Kashmiri GDP is high partly because of the money flooding in to rebuild infrastructure. These include a power plant, building bridges, repairing roads etc. Also, you cannot compare India to Isreal. Isreal sent missiles into Lebenon, we have sent no missiles deep into Pakistan yet. |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 09:49
i came here to see how the balochi debate was going......
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 10:06
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Balochistan is a part of Pakistan. Our Army Chief throughtout the 60's Musa Khan was a Balochi, two Prime Ministers have been Balochi, Mazari and Jamali, as well as one President, Leghari. Our present Chierf Justice is a Balochi.
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Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 18-Sep-2006 at 15:10
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Finally, getting back to balochis again. One thing I noticed was that the baloch population in paki balochistan is about equal to the pashtoon population in paki balochistan. Now I know the baloch must feel marginalized, outnumbered and threatened by panjabis since they are constantly screaming that but do they feel less hostile towards pathans in their region? Is assimilation into pashtoon genes and pashtoon culture so trivial that they almost welcome it because they are from the same roots as the pashtoons? You hear them complain of how they are denied infrastructure and you also hear them lement how panjabis are "breeding like rats" while their population growth is static(as well as very small in comparison) but on all these internet forums and all their propaganda sites I NEVER hear a peep about them against pathans. Is it because the baloch hate the panjabi so much that pathans have become invisible to them? Or they never really were bothered about being absorbed or dominated by pathans? |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 06:08
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c'mon sparten, im greek that doesnt make australia a part of greece. being a part of the pakistani est. makes you pakistani first then baluchi. @Masqad, im sure there would be conflict between the two groups if the punjabi's werent a part of the equation. basically who is the greatest threat to them right now punjabi's or pushtuns? id say the right now irrespective of reality, they perceive the punjabi's as there bigger threat. -------------
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 06:28
You are absolutely correct. Government money is pouring into Kashmir like anything. Nothing more needs to be said. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 06:33
The reason is that the Balooch feel threatened from the punjabis. They mingle with the Afghans. The Balooch & Afghans people are basically similiar & have a strong liking for each other. Politically the Afghan people & their region belongs to Afghanistan culturally & historically, but it was a just a silly line drawn up by the british which seperated the Afghan people into two separate countries. The balooch are more like afghans & Iranians ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 09:38
Leondias you are comparing apples and oranges. Balochistan is 1) geographically contigious to pakistan, and 2) they joined Pakistan in a free election/jigra.
And niether Masqad nor (surprise, surprise) Vivek, have any inclination of what they are talking about. Niether the Baloch people or the Pashtun (and I can say that because I am a Pashtun) have anything against the Punjabis. At all. The problems there are in two districts, Dera Bugti and Dera Marri. Both of thses have been seccessionist since 1947. There are 63 tribes in balochistan, of which two have a problem. The largest tribe there are in order, Mazari, Leghari and jamali, and all three have had a man elected President or PM.
So the preceeding discourse is mainly what messrs vivek and masqad haope will happen rather than any indication of what may.
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Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 09:55
I think that is the proper picture and their is no ethnic strife as some members visualize. There is politics of the provinces and vote grabbing slogans. ------------- |
Posted By: malizai_
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 09:56
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edit:delete double posting error. ------------- |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 19-Sep-2006 at 15:16
What exactly do I "hope" will happen? |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 00:17
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Read your preceeding posts.
Edit: I think I mixed you up with someone else. My apologies.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 01:14
That's natural when you are confused about the reality of the subject of discussion itself. The balooch & the Afghans are in Pak not by choice, but due to a stupid line drawn up by the british, who had no inclination to look at the ethinicites & likes of people & were only concerned with making money. I am surprised how you can claim that the pushtoon culture is not Afghanistani. that is the heart of the Afghan identity, luckily they had a part of thier land which could not be controlled by the British, so they have their own nation Afhanistan. Unfortunately the Balooch people were not that lucky. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 05:20
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I bow to your superior knowledge. As an Indian who has never seen nor probably can tell balochistan or the Frontier ona a map, your appreciation of events is obviously much more telling than someone who is a native of that area and has lived there. Congrats.
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Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 20-Sep-2006 at 05:38
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Thank You. You see knowledge is in our genes, on this side of the border. On your side off course the genes are different as our common friend telde honourably theorizes.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 04:44
You said the north had a higher GDP per capita. Maharashtra and Gujrat are middle/south. North would be UTTAR pradesh, himachal pradesh, panjab, haryana, kashmir etc would it not? South would be Madras and Tamil Nadu. Bihar is also southish of course. So where are the rest of the figures? |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 04:48
I presume its not pure faith that makes you put Haryana and Panjab at the top? Actually those figures are kinda skewed because of the remittances from abroad pouring in But still a web page with all the states PCGDP would be interesting. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 05:37
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 05:53
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 06:18
I agree Maharastra and Gujarat are middle (I actually would call them north-west), but they are north compared to Tamil Nadu. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 22-Sep-2006 at 07:29
Now let us come back to baloochistan again. The family & tribe of their President Bugti have claimed that Chemical weapons were used to Murder him. The circumstances also seem to suggest that. So is it a revival of the chemical warfare techniques employed by Saddam against the Kurds. Do we see a new usage of these weapons of mass destruction ? ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 04:40
Ok lets review some of the things you learned in kindergarten Vivek. North, South, East, West and of course Center. The word southish does not belong here if you notice. Do keep that in mind, this implies(to an english speaker) that we are no longer dealing with kindergarten semantics any longer. Now look at the map of the subcontinent.  Turn the map 45 degrees clockwise so that the bay of bengal almost becomes a southern sea of the east coastline. Now the NORTHWEST becomes the NORTH with pakistan, kashmir, punjab Himachal pradesh and parts of Rajistan and Gujrat as the "north" and the SOUTHWEST becomes the SOUTH. Now from a cultural/genetic perspective perhaps you can appreciate what I mean by southish? Coincidently this perspective one gets by rotating the subcontinent 45 degrees puts Balochistan in a much more northern place POLITICALLY(I want to stray back to the topic also...lets not talk to much about India in this thread). So perhaps you can now appreciate that the compass is not the only point of reference used when discussing geopolitics. I.E. one of the reasons Balochistan is potentially unstable along with NWFP is because culturally and politically they are different from the rest of the subcontinent. Capiche? |
Posted By: maqsad
Date Posted: 23-Sep-2006 at 05:01
Well if he is going to be buried in land controlled by his family, would it not be possible for them to exume the body for a forensic autopsy? Also, even if chemical weapons are being used which is the first I have heard of this since pakistan has renounced the use of chem weapons in war, why would they risk chemming someone so famous? I mean isnt it dangerous to do it to someone this dangerous...why not just shoot him? http://news.indiainfo.com/2006/09/08/0809chemical-weapons-bugti.html - http://news.indiainfo.com/2006/09/08/0809chemical-weapons-bugti.html Chemical weapons killed Nawab Akbar Bugti: Sons Friday, September 8 2006 12:01 Hrs (IST) - World Time - Quetta(Pakistan): The sons of a prominent Pakistani tribal chieftain said today (Sept 8, 2006) the Government killed their father with chemical weapons, and demanded an international investigation. Nawab Akbar Bugti, 79, died Aug. 26 when his remote cave hide-out collapsed in an unexplained explosion while security forces were searching for militants in the area. His eldest son, Jamil Akbar Bugti, demanded that international human rights groups exhume his father's body for tests to determine what caused his death. "We say that chemical weapons have been used to kill Nawab Akbar Khan Bugti, and only international organizations can prove our claim," Jamil said as he and his brother held a news conference at the family's home in Quetta, capital of the southwestern province of Baluchistan. Bugti, a former Baluchistan governor, had led an often violent campaign for more wealth from resources like oil and gas extracted from his impoverished province. Protests over his death have left several dead in Baluchistan and repeatedly paralyzed the province. Academics and commentators across Pakistan have criticized the government's handling of the case. The Government has accused Bugti of terrorism, but says it had no intent to kill him and is still investigating the blast. Yesterday, Minister of State for Information Tariq Azeem Khan said the Government has no objection to exhuming Bugti's body for tests. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 03:25
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Why turn it by 45 degrees ? To prove your southish theory ? Then why not turn the whole of pakistan by another 90 degrees to make it south India. the brahui beople are south Indians after all. And you could also turn the clock back by 59 years (not too far off from the no. 45 degrees) to make the country called pakistan disappear from the map so that a more realistic picture of the sub continent could be presented. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 05:59
It's really very simple.
------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 06:09
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Yes. The Pakistanis trying applying the policy of divide & rule to their country. Well Learnt from the.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 09:23
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Two Pakistani PM's have been Balochis, the present Chief Justice of pakistan is Balochi. The Balochis seem to be doing a lot more of the rule part. ------------- |
Posted By: Anujkhamar
Date Posted: 10-Oct-2006 at 09:55
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About the whole N.E.S.W. India thing above. Well North India and South India are distinguished by differences in languages. It is a linguistic-cultural region as is North India, it is not a geographical term. When people refer to North India they mean the parts of India that predomanatly speak Indo-Eurpean languages such as Gujarati, Hindi, Mahrathi etc. When they say south they mean Dravidian languages such as Telugu, Kannada and Tamil. Obviously Gujarat and Maharastra are central, but linguistically they are north. Now back to Baluchistan, any further discussion of North/South India can be done in a separate post. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 00:55
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Even the baloochis are more of south Indian.
------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: TeldeInduz
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 08:22
Balochis (and Brahuis) are completely unrelated to South Indians. The Brahuis might share the same linguistic grouping, but they look completely different to South Indians, and are completely distinct genetically from South Indians. ------------- Quoo-ray sha quadou sarre................. |
Posted By: Vivek Sharma
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 08:30
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Off course not to you. They are the same to the world. ------------- PATTON NAGAR, Brains win over Brawn |
Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 11-Oct-2006 at 10:16
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Vivek, the world you live and and the one that everyone else lives in are two very different dimensions which never overlap.
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