Big Elections for Joe Lieberman
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Topic: Big Elections for Joe Lieberman
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Subject: Big Elections for Joe Lieberman
Date Posted: 08-Aug-2006 at 22:57
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Senator's Re-Election Bid Tops Primaries
Connecticut Incumbent Trailing Political Newcomer By ROBERT TANNER, AP (Aug. 8) - Three-term Sen. Joe Lieberman struggled to overcome a ferocious primary challenger Tuesday, battling to escape payback from his own party for supporting the Iraq war. Six years after Democrats backed Lieberman for vice president, political neophyte Ned Lamont grabbed an early lead and held it as the night wore on, despite the race tightening steadily. With 89 percent of precincts counted, Lamont led with 52 percent, or 127,786 votes, to Lieberman's 48 percent, or 119,867 votes. Turnout was projected at twice the norm for a primary. In Georgia, Rep. Cynthia McKinney, the fiery congresswoman who scuffled with a U.S. Capitol police officer earlier this year, fell behind in a runoff for the Democratic nomination. Elsewhere, voters in Colorado, Missouri and Michigan also chose candidates for the fall elections. The Connecticut Senate race dominated the political landscape in recent weeks, as Lamont demonstrated the power of anti-war sentiment among Democrats with his campaign. Lamont is the millionaire owner of a cable television company, but his political career is limited to serving as a town selectman and member of the town tax board. Still, he brought himself to the brink of defeating three-term incumbent Lieberman, the Democrats' vice presidential candidate in 2000. It was a race watched closely by the liberal, Internet-savvy Democrats who lead the party's emerging "netroots" movement, groups such as Moveon.org that played a big role in pushing Lamont's candidacy. Officials said turnout up to 50 percent when primaries usually own draw 25 percent of voters. And vote totals showed roughly 12,000 more ballots cast for the Democratic Senate primary than the party primary for governor, reflecting the extra attention to the Lieberman-Lamont battle. Jubilant Lamont supporters predicted victory. "People are going to look back and say the Bush years started to end in Connecticut," said Avi Green, a volunteer from Boston. "The Republicans are going to look at tonight and realize there's blood in the water." On the final day of the race, Lieberman accused his opponent's supporters of hacking his campaign Web site and e-mail system. Campaign manager Sean Smith said the site began having problems Monday night and crashed for good at 7 a.m., denying voters information about the candidate. "It is a deliberate attempt to disenfranchise voters," Smith said. Lamont, campaigning early Tuesday afternoon in Bridgeport, said he knew nothing about the accusations. "It's just another scurrilous charge," he said. A week ago, polls showed Lieberman trailing Lamont by 13 percentage points. The latest polls showed the race tightening, with Lamont holding a slight lead of 51 percent to 45 percent over Lieberman among likely Democratic voters, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released Monday. The telephone poll of 784 likely Democratic primary voters, conducted from July 31 to Aug. 6, has a sampling error margin of plus or minus 3.5 percentage points. Democratic critics targeted Lieberman for his strong support for the Iraq war and for his close ties to President Bush. They played and replayed video of the kiss President Bush planted on Lieberman's cheek after the 2005 State of the Union address. Lieberman has said he will run as an independent in the fall if defeated in the primary. His falling poll numbers spurred some Democratic colleagues to make last-minute campaign appearances, including former President Clinton, Sen. Barbara Boxer of California and others. In the lead up to Tuesday's primary, 14,000 new Connecticut voters registered as Democrats, while another 14,000 state voters switched their registration from unaffiliated to Democrat to vote in the primary. In Georgia, McKinney, her state's first black congresswoman, was in a runoff in her bid for a seventh term. In the heavily Democratic district, the runoff winner is likely to win in the fall. With 68 percent of precincts reporting, Hank Johnson, the black former commissioner of DeKalb County, was ahead with 58 percent, or 25,112 votes, to McKinney's 42 percent, or 18,056 votes. McKinney has long been controversial, once suggesting the Bush administration had advance knowledge of the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks. Her comments helped galvanize opposition and she lost her seat in 2002, but won it again two years ago. In her latest brouhaha in March, she struck a Capitol Police officer who did not recognize her and tried to stop her from entering a House office building. A grand jury in Washington declined to indict her, but she was forced to apologize before the House. She drew less than 50 percent of the vote in last month's primary. In other primaries Tuesday: - In Michigan, Republican Rep. Joe Schwarz, a moderate who supports abortion rights, lagged conservative Tim Walberg, a former state lawmaker. The race has drawn more than $1 million from outside groups; Schwarz has received support from President Bush and Arizona Sen. John McCain. - In Colorado, two open congressional seats have drawn crowds of candidates. - Missouri Republican Sen. Jim Talent and Democratic challenger Claire McCaskill, the state auditor, won their party's primaries. |
Replies:
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 01:11
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Im so happy, he was the first politican I ever leanred to hate, back when I was 12 and he was trying to ban my acess to computer games in a vain attempt to make his party seem morlaistic to soccer moms. His downfall fills me with glee!
When hes dead lets bury him in pork wrappings, shellfish and boxes of violent video games! ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 02:22
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Just more proof of how the extreme left of the Democratic Party is shoving their party off the deep end. I personally think it's great, Karl Rove will have his way with them. ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: red clay
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 07:02
Or, It could be a preview of how fed up with the extreme right the rest of the voters are.  ------------- "Arguing with someone who hates you or your ideas, is like playing chess with a pigeon. No matter what move you make, your opponent will walk all over the board and scramble the pieces". Unknown. |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 07:06
Extreme left? US has no such thing. Your Democrats would be Right wing Liberals here, your Republicans would be considered facist or religous fanatics, people we laugh at...
What you think is extreme left is in fact no more than Central Democratic...
------------- 
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 09:19
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Agree with Aelfgifu. Extreme left in the United States? You must be kidding, Genghis.
The whole American political spectrum has shifted so much to the right that most Americans simply cannot tell what is "right" and what is "left" anymore. The so-called "moderates" in both right and left in the United States are, in most countries' standard, solidly right, and the so-called extreme left is, in most countries' standard, just moderate left.
I bet if more Americans KNEW, for example, what's going on in Scandinavia, they would definitely call those countries "communist". They don't just because they don't have a clue about the Scandinavian system. They even call our Canadian system too "communist" which cannot be more far from the truth. ------------- |
Posted By: Red Russian
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 09:40
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Democrats and Republicans with both equally screw over america, jsut in 2 differnet ways. Demorcats don't know what they stand for, Acceep being agisnt the war in Iraq. And the Repbulicans are so corrupt its scary! ------------- 
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 10:53
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That is the problem with a two party system. In a two party system, most people onl vote against a party, so voting for one party just to keep the other party from winning. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 12:11
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-The real problem in the US is the difficulty to actually get anything done. Republicans and Democrats disagree over every policy, and for the Dems especially, follow particular issues for the simple fact that it is fashionable to their party. Logic is often left trailing far behind. The Democratic Party has been hijacked by extremists, while the Republican Party is earning the reputation of being untrustworthy. We really need a good third party to find common ground and begin cleaning up this mess. A few quick examples of problems that we can not fix due to partisan bickering:
My BIG 3
-Illegal Immigration
-Oil Prices
-the "War on Terror"
-As for Lieberman....unfotrunately, the man has lost the favor of his base. I guess that tough military stance is not very appealing to your average blue-stater.......... ------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 12:15
Dude, these are huge problems all over the world. A third American party is not going to make illegal immigration less, or oil prices lower...
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Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 12:25
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-Yes, that is why we need to be able to bypass all of the bureaucratic BS and get something done! Those three issues are by far the most important and I would understand if it were just these difficult issues that we struggled with........though we can't agree with anything here in the States! I think an effective third-party would do a much better job at establishing common groung for the future of our country. As of now, I do not think we even have a realistic vision for our own future.....which is very unsettling to me.
-BTW, I doubt illegal immigration elsewhere can even compare to the problem we are facing.
-Also, as for oil prices...... I want alternate fuel........something that both Dems and Reps have denied the people for the last 4 administrations and counting.... ------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 15:26
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-BTW, I doubt illegal immigration elsewhere can even compare to the problem we are facing.
Ever saw anything about Spain, Italy and the Canary Islands? Just as bad, and I think more people die on the way to there too... -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 16:32
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-No, I have not......is it really as bad as the US? I may have to look into that, as I had no idea. Thanks! ------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 16:45
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See here, for example:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1497854.stm - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/1497854.stm
"Officials say about 15,000 illegal immigrants from Africa tried to enter Spain last year, and that dozens drowned in the attempt." (2001)
Or here:
http://www.ecop.info/english/e-sap-net-35.htm - http://www.ecop.info/english/e-sap-net-35.htm
½ a million illegal immigrants who enter Europe each year
More than 5,000 people have died trying to cross the Mediterranean to Europe since 1996.
2 million people have moved towards the North African Coast in the hope of being able to reach Europe via Italy by Boat. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 21:44
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Just to let ya folks know that JOE isint out of the race yet! he is still in the race running as an independent for a seat in the senate. ------------- |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 22:17
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-I think he will do well as an Independent....... One of the few Dems I would vote for as of now. It will be tough for him to win re-election in CT. ------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 22:19
 Sssooo true.------------- |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 22:28
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I do have to say, though - when George Bush was re-elected, I was
devastated. We watched the election live in a cafe, and people were
just heartbroken with the result. Now, though, I'm kind of indifferent. I don't truly believe the United States will be any different regardless of which party is in power. The country is ruled by its corporations and lobby groups and the parties, to me, seem to be just a distraction to amuse the masses. It might be better for the rest of the world, and for the average American, to have Democrats in power but in the end... it makes no difference. American foriegn policy seems to be more or less the same regardless of who is in power so the country will continue to dig itself into a deeper and deeper hole in the sphere of world opinion. The Republicans won't care, the Democrats will but won't be able to really change anything. Nothing much will happen in our generation, I believe. But when America falters and is no longer a superpower - as history has shown us always happens, with every great country - it will be shown very little mercy I'm sure. ------------- |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 22:42
The dems hijacked by extremists and the republicans merely untrustworthy? What reality do you live in? Im a center-right Federalist who idolizes Barry Goldwater and I can tell you that although both parties are abhorrent, the Republican party is clearly the least logical and most deluded ideolougues int he developed world.
If they are so practical, why do they intentionally sabotage our scientific endeavors giving small Asian countries a huge advantage over us? Oh thats right, they do it to appease some psychopathic nut jobs who think the world will end tommorow.
Was there anything logical or practical about the Iraq war? No, anyone here can tell you I hav eno problems with war, but an unecessary one that costs money and lives and dfoesnt even lower gas prices is a lame deal. Oh yeah, and taking out a secular ruler, no matter how evil, to replace it with a society that will probably elect an Iranian puppet state, strengthenening america's real enemy.
FOreign policy isnt even strategic anymore, its based on religous fundamentalism and misguided Wilsonian ideology.
In the end only solution is to kick all the incompitent zombies out of power, which means that no matter how they redistrict, incumbents of both parties must be defeated to end the corruption and rule by idiots (see Ted Stevens) Liebermans' defeat is a step in the right direction. Soon Santorum will fall as well and that will make me more happy than even the fall of Delay.
------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 22:58
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-Tobodai,
-I agree with much of what you have said in this post. To be honest, I am not real happy with either party and I have been a Republican since I was old enough to register. I plan on declaring myself as an Independent, but this is not the point. The point is that neither party has lived up to my expectations......reason, can not agree on a general direction for our country and/or can not solve simple problems due to long drawn out processes and partisan sheep. I plan to vote on the best suited canidate regardless of party...and sadly, the Dems certainly do not look so good. You ask how I arrive at the conclusion that the Dem. party has been hijacked by extremists....look at the Democratic National Chairman Howard Dean! If that guy is not an extremist, I do not know who is.
------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 23:07
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I too would have been a Republican had it not been for first reagan and then neocons, I still think its the better party historically, but Im not an ideolgoical nutcase or a listener to talk radio so I know that its quite hypocritical to call Dean (who is a nut definately) a crazy man and not have an even greater probelm with say my states senator Santorum. People on this thread have pointed out that our countrries two crappy parties are both really right wing now, and by their standards I am also right wing, and its true. Deans apparent left wingedness to the average unimformed American is actually just a crazy centrist. I actually like him on some levels more than most because hes very pro NRA and for smaller government.
Small government, now thats something you dont see in the GOP for the past few decades!
We either need laws against redistricting, voting liscences (where one must pass a test to be able to vote) or many many more parties. Or, the solution Im more partial to is th epolitical merit system replacing democratic elections, but thats a whole nother topic. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 09-Aug-2006 at 23:16
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-Well said, though I will have to disagree with you about Reagan. ------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 09:21
Tobo, you should definitely open a thread on this "political merit system" that you are partial to. I am sure I am not the only one who is interested in learning about this idea. ------------- |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 11:38
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-I would also like to see a political/voting merit system.......... I have thought about this extensively and would like to contribute to the thread. ------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 14:03
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As an American I find Europe a bit amusing as well. It pretends to be something it is not...great. The days of Europe passed all because Europe was nothing but trouble for this whole world for the first half of this century. Now that Europe has had the reign of power taken from it by America and Russia you all feel free to sit in Cafes and talk about how "I like Americans but I hate their leaders." OK Let me tell you something...if you hate my leader you hate me because I chose that leader. Europeans look down at America as if they are so much more civilized and know what is best for the world...I guess after pillaging it for 400 years you know... And yes, in America, the Democratic party has been hijacked by whats known s the Hollywood left. Basically out of touch liberals with allot of $$$. I’ve heard it suggested by disenfranchised Democrats that a business consortium needs to retake contorl of the party. And lets point out some things about Europe. Some nations still have conscription...some still have an official religions (but Dammit! Dont you dare swear on a bible George Bush!). You still stick to the WAY outdated system of monarchy (even though it has no power). IN the Netherlands a pro ‘lets have sex with young people party’ was legalized. The NAMBLA website is hosted on a German server. Nations like France still continue to maintain a large presence in Africa after supposedly ceding its colonial influence (Oh does France still test nukes?) OK you nations in EUrope are basically hypocritical. Ill wage this against you. America is AHEAD in the following Form of government (no aristocracy/ no official religion) Freedom of Speech (no strings attached...yes you can be a nazi in America and that is something I am proud of). |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 14:33
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Well, thank you for just proving my prejudice that Americans know dick about the other countries in the world. I've never seen so much disinformation and plain rubbish in my life...
if you hate my leader you hate me because I chose that leader
I am ok with that. Did you think I would care?
And yes, in America, the Democratic party has been hijacked by whats known s the Hollywood left. Basically out of touch liberals with allot of $$$.
And still they dont manage to be even remotely leftist. What a bummer.
Some nations still have conscription...
Most dont, some do. So? Is it worse than forcing people into the army because the only other option is crime?
some still have an official religions (but Dammit! Dont you dare swear on a bible George Bush!).
Yes, some have, and most dont. America does not have official religion, and yet religion still rules. At least in Europe, you know what you get.
You still stick to the WAY outdated system of monarchy (even though it has no power).
Our queen costs us considerably less in taxes than your president costs you. We could replace our ceremonial queen with a ceremonial president like Germany, but what would be the difference?
IN the Netherlands a pro ‘lets have sex with young people party’ was legalized. The NAMBLA website is hosted on a German server.
Yes, it is the freedom of speech that you Americans so avidly preach but never practice. The act of paedophilia is still illegal, and now that they are joined in a party, it should be no problem keeping a close eye on them.
Nations like France still continue to maintain a large presence in Africa after supposedly ceding its colonial influence (Oh does France still test nukes?)
And America of course keeps its nose out of other countries business, and never sticks its nose where it does not belong. Get real.
America is AHEAD in the following Form of government (no aristocracy/ no official religion) And yet you are ruled by the rich and religious fanatic. On a far greater scale than any European country.
Freedom of Speech (no strings attached...yes you can be a nazi in America and that is something I am proud of).
So paedophilia is bad but nazism is allright... strange, I thought they were on about the same level of disgust. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 17:21
Wow. you have no idea what you're talking about. Hollywood does have some extreme liberals, even by European standards, but they don't have as much influence on the Democratic party as people think. Which is good, because socialists are fools. Though, I always found it hypocritical to criticize the government for not helping the poor and befriending the rich while they themselves are millionaires. Of course, that statement doesn't apply to everyone in Hollywood. but as far as Lieberman goes. Good. I didn't like him. His recent speeches have been pointless. He sides with democrats 90% of the time. He only strays on Iraq and some national security issues. He's as big of a partisan as anyone else, yet he's now running on a platform of criticizing how all the partisanship in the government. But to look at the issue from a politcal persepective. The democrats harmed themselves by voting him out. Rove already has the republicans prasiing Lieberman, which will further hurt his chances of being elected. Republicans want to see Lieberman fall because then they can attack the Democrats fro ebing weak on security and kicking out members of their party who were tough. Even though Bush is far dumber than Clinton was on national secutiry, its still a major weakness that Rove can exploit. It's up to the democrats to show that they can be tough on national security. I personally don't think they will be push-overs, but alot of people will probably disagree with me. Democrats can't afford to be weak on security, They know that doing so would be the end of their party. On a good note though, Congresswoman McKinney from Georgia didn't get re-elected. Anyone who plays the race card when the situation has nothing to do with race is no better than the KKK, I was dissapointed that the Capitol Building security guard didn't beat her with his night-stick when she assaulted him. The irony would have been hilarious. |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 17:51
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Which is good, because socialists are fools.
I am a socialist through and through, but coming from an American I take it as a compliment. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 17:53
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-Where exactly has socialism worked out well? ------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: Illuminati
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 18:13
Ahh yes. Let's stereotype 300 million people. That's quite intelligent. Please, continue with your hatred and stereotyping. You only prove my point for me. America isn't an ideology, you can't stereotype because Americans don't all believe the same things. Which socialist countries today are economic powers? None. Socialists are ideologues who take the side of their ideology rather than common sense. That isn't to say Socialist policies are all bad. Social security works, and most people think it's a good idea, but a complete socialist system is a fool's dream. Even scandanavian countries aren't completely socialist. History has shown what socialists and communists do to those who oppose them. Socialism and similiar ideologies are responsible from more deaths in the 20th century than even fascism is. not too mention, socialism breeds laziness and a poor work ethic, which is damaging to a country in a capitalist world. There's a reason that France has a hard time attracting foreign investors, and their unemployment is so high. Having a job is not a right in our world, and any socialist who thinks so only dooms themselves. A complete socialist economic system can only survive if the entire world is socialist. not too mention, socialism breeds laziness and a poor work ethic, which is damaging to a country in a capitalist world. There's a reason that France has a hard time attracting foreign investors, and their unemployment is so high. Having a job is not a right in our world, and any socialist who thinks so only dooms themselves. |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 20:13
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Well said ------------- |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 22:13
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And that you for proving mine. Now I know for sure that Europeans are a bunch of pseudo intellectuals sitting in Café’s and theorizing how the world should work because right now, these Americans are running it and they must be the dumbest S-O-Bs around. Europe and America…truly friends. I think from talking to many Europeans they have a great knowledge of the world but are naïve. Americans tend to know less about the world though if you listen to American radio they seem to do fine on their information.
Well I often hear “I like America and Americans but I don’t like their leaders.”
That when compared to your society. I am a centrist here in america leaning on left. But I am sure in the Netherlands I am a right wing fascist. Just because the political compass isn’t aligned with the Netherlands doesn’t make our political system any less valid. Contrary to your beliefs…the Netherlands isn’t the center of the world.
RELIGION RULES! HAHAHA This is a load of crap. Most Americans would say they believe in God (Christianity) but Id say most don’t even go to church. We swear and drink…hardly a Christian nation.
Its just funny to me. Having some family hold an official title (with no power) so the can wear funny clothing and conduct meaningless ceremonies.
So…can you say “Hey Hitler was a good guy!” in the Netherlands? Could you say “Boy, I’d sure love to go out and bag me an 8 year old.” In America you could say both. The problem is you have a political base from which pedophiles can harm children. What else cant I say in the Netherlands? I probably cant say anything racist can I? Is Mind of Mencia on TV in the Netherlands? No, Freedom of speech exists here in America better than anywhere else. We just don’t allow terrorist political parties to thrive here.
Of course we do…but big deal. Im pointing out the hypocrisy.
Prove it.
No they aren’t alright. Pedophilia actively seeks to harm children. Nazism seeks to follow Hitler and as long as they don’t harm anybody they can do that. Of course if they were to harm people wed probably shoot them for it. |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 22:16
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Everytime I make a good moderate centrist point Loknar hijaks the right wing side of the argument and thus discredits half my points. His ranting is done is a "crazy drunk ranting" way that does a disservice to the conservative arguments I make.
That being said hes certainly right about Europes time being over, but the reason is because they experimented too much with facism and got tired of playing the power game, this is already happeneing to America and soon America too will follow Europe.
The rule of the west is over and I cant say Im sad to see it go.
One European state I like very much is the Netherlands, sure some say their socialist but they really are just capitalists spending money in a different way. Too much taxes for me but still, no other country truly embraces the ideas of freedom for the individual. Many Americans that say they are for freedom only mean the freedom of suburban and rural christian heterosexuals. Certain people often forget that the Netherlands has a lower crime rate and higher levels of living on average, so apparently moral policing is not only useless, its counter productive.
Sure I hate political correctness, and the idea that its ok to insult muhammad but not jews is a double standard (although I think you should be alowed to insult both, however badly you want) but its slightly better than sharing a nation with people that suffer from immense hubris that enables them to trample on privacy and their own military they claim to love so much. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 22:35
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Actually Tobadi, I was responding to the prevailing European attitude that I saw on the first page… And no I am Centrist. If you read my post you would see that. Do you wanna see my scores from the political compass? |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 22:43
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The irony is Im probbaly more right wing that you. Thats not really my point.
Your general attitude is to bash the whole of European society. Just as it is not fair for them to judge all of us in one blanket, I would say the same goes for us. You seem way to intent on starting some kind of Euro-American flame war.
If someone acts in what you perceive as a heinously pompous manner, call them on it, dont discredit your entire point by dissing their entire society.
------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 22:52
Nowhere yet, but they'll turn it around! You'll see! ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: BMC21113
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 22:59
 - I bet!------------- "To be prepared for war is one of the most effective means of preserving peace"-George Washington "The art of war is, in the last result, the art of keeping one's freedom of action."-Xenophon |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 23:21
The Scandinavian countries are pretty close to what could be considered a Socialist system, and I belive they are doing pretty well. ------------- http://www.journalof911studies.com - http://www.journalof911studies.com |
Posted By: Mila
Date Posted: 10-Aug-2006 at 23:51
Pretty well? They rank at the top of every quality of life, economic, health care, etc. list I've ever seen. EDIT: Except Cuba, which has by far the best overall health care system in the world. Doctors there spend 4 hours a day treating patients, 4 hours a day doing house visits. EVERY cuban is required by law to see a doctor, which is all free, at least twice a year. Their health care system runs on prevention, instead of treatment. Holistic and natural remedies are used in conjunction with modern medicines and Cuba has more doctors per capita than any area of North America and the longest life expectancy in the developing world. Go Cuba! ------------- |
Posted By: Jay.
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 00:02
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Mila, you are right, however, like the rest of the Cuban economy Cuban medical care has suffered from severe material shortages following the end of Soviet subsidies and the ongoing US embargo. ------------- Samo Sloga Srbina Spasava Only Unity Can Save the Serb |
Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 00:11
Absolutely. There are too many countries, too many different systems, and too many different distinct political cultures in Europe for anyone to pigeonhole them into one category and discredit all of them. There are some countries that work better than others - in certain aspects but not in others. Even those who are Eurospecialists have a hard time understanding the complexity of European politics, economics, and societies, let alone an average American with an extremely limited knowledge in Europe. When one makes sweeping generalizations about Europe, it just shows the silliness of Eurobashing. There are many things that Americans can learn from Europe (and vice versa). This "America as number 1" attitude is as dated, childish, and ridiculous as "Europe as number 1" attitude.
Oh, by the way, it is probably fair to say that, in general, Europeans understand and know a lot more about everything American than vice versa.
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Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 00:27
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AFAIK Scandinavian countries are just capitalist countries with different spending priorities, theres nothign classically socialist about them, hence why they are sucesses. Taxes are high and governemtn spending higher, but they are defeinately capitalist countries. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 01:03
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I am not trying to start a flame war...I am not interested in those. this statement really got under my skin
So I decided to post my 2 cents. Then when I made my own reply I think Alefgifu’s true attitude toward America and its population in general came out. He persoanlly admits to haveing a negative predjudice toward Americans (as I did admit to having one toward Europeans). I am not trying to bash the EUropean society though I do it if i feel a European is going to bash my society. You all may say I dont know enough about Europe to make such opinions...I would then argue that people like Alefgifu have no basis for forming opinions such as "...Americans know dick about the world." The only vibe I really get from Europe is this: They look down at America and Americans. Am I wrong? Are EUropeans not looking down on us? I undersand I could be incorrect in this accessment. In any event, I appologize for the crap storm I created. |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 01:31
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I completely understand what you are saying, and yes some people are really pretentious on the other side of the pond, but Im just saying that for either east or west coast of the Atlantic to say "everyone on your side is stupid and or ignorant" doesnt really help. I mean I devoted a whole thread to criticizing how people like Alefgifu think and no one really noticed it (intentionally or unitentionally) though I wasnt too blunt about it either. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 03:53
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I mean I devoted a whole thread to criticizing how people like Alefgifu think and no one really noticed it (intentionally or unitentionally) though I wasnt too blunt about it either.
I did notice it, but I ignored it as I think we have already spend all our arguments on the point in the friendly dicatators thread, and I am in no mood to start the same thing all over. And I will be going on holiday sunday, so I wont have time for it anyway. It would be rude to start such a discussion and then walk away from it, would it not?
I apologise for getting carried away in my answer to Loknar, but I can in all sincerity claim that "he started it'....
 My original statement, about America having no Left politicas as the rest of the world is just plain true. One can get angry about it, but hey, I didnt make the system, I just described it. I also cannot see why it would be particularly insulting to Americans...
When Loknar posed his theses on the hypocrisy of Europe, I got carried away. I tried to prove that America was no better or worse than Europe, but I understand it did not come out too clearly. I see now that I should just have ignored his studpid and childish post and be the wiser person myself, but unfortunately I didnt.
Tobodai, your post on this point have been a lot more reasonable, and I should have followed your example on that.
Socialism might be considered as naive by many, but it is because of socialism that I live in a country where whe have proper healthcare for all, not just the rich, where everyone can go to university, not just the rich and where no-one starves to death. I call those pretty importatnt results.
I am a socialist, but I am also a realist. I know socialsm does not work on its own, and I do not at all oppose free market economy. But there needs to be a balance.
In the Netherlands, the liberal party is growing, and they are slowly destroying all the things mentioned above. Healthcare has become five times more expensive in the last 5 years, and there are plans to make the higher education system so expensive it will become hard for a lot of people to attend university. Meanwhile there is still the fact that knowledge is the only commodity the Netheralnds has. If it is gone, we dont have anything else.
I feel the liberals are destroying my country. This is why I do not like liberals. And that is why I believe in socialism, because a strong socialist party is needed to save my country from the liberals.
Oh, and Loknar, my dear? I am a she.  And what is wrong with discussing politics in the cafe? Very inspiring environment for discusions.-------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: Loknar
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 18:24
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Alefgifu You are correct about the politics. But to us americans, we see the extreme left as just that....extreme. On your level it is the norm. I cant speak to world wide politics...I know in South America this is true and much of asia. But even so, I dont see any reason to change it. The reaosn I say the dems have been hijacked is because of the Soros types. The democrats used to be reliant upon Unions for donations in their political campaigns ubt because of Campaign Finance Reform they have to rely on other sourses. These sourses are billionaire special interest types...Ao you essentially have a remote few hard line leftists controling the democratic party. Liberman him self was a liberal by american standards and voted as a liberal 90% of the time. He supported the Iraq war and unlike John Kerry he stuck with it. Liberman and McCaine are two politicians America needs...these 2 men dont stick with their party juse because oit is the party line. Liberaman is no longer a democratic party candidate because he stuck with what he believed. He is a rare politician even though I disagree with him on most issues. Now as to my opinion on socialism...well i dont know how it works in the Netherlands. maybve it works OK. I would ask this...when people work in the Netherlands in manual labor jobs do people work hard? Can people be fired? People have the idea that Americans are lazy...this is extremely untrue. Even people my own age are dedicated workers. Sure you see some who are not but when my boss tells me to do something I do it no matter how hard it is. I can be fired at any time... During the week...I get up at 7AM, go to school from 9am to 2am. I study for 3 hours, do my homework ect then I head to work from 5pm to 10pm...not counting the studying that is a 10 hour day. I am only at home to sleep during the week. EVen then I am up until 2am many nights... My story isnt uncommon...im just saying americans arent lazy as people may thinjk.
Anyway...there is nothing wrong with discussing politics in a cafe. |
Posted By: Ponce de Leon
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 18:40
I hear the dutch are good negotiators  ------------- |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 19:07
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The Netherlands is very much a capitlist country, it only spends differently, same with other European countries. Higher taxes does not equal socialism. No first world country is socialist, many thrid world countries are. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 21:31
Their GDP per capita is also much lower than the USA ($29,443.24 vs $39,319.40), and the market still exists as a major force in the economy, which a truly socialist system wouldn't have. ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: flyingzone
Date Posted: 11-Aug-2006 at 21:49
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Genghis, I don't know where did you get your data. If you look at that provided by the IMF, most Scandinavian countries have a higher GDP per capita than the United States:
Norway $64268
Iceland $53472
Denmark $48000
United States $42101
Sweden $39658
OK, even if the United States does have a per capita GDP higher than the Scandinavian countries based on a different kind of measurement provided by another source, the latter are still very wealthy, which actually demonstrates that there are different ways of making a country's citizens rich - and not at the expense of huge income equality as is in the case of the United States.
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Posted By: Aelfgifu
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 07:30
Hey, Loknar. I just spend 30 mins typing out a reply to this, and then the site crashed, and it is gone. Bummer. I will retype it later, but right now I am too pissed off for it...
But just for the shorthand answer:
I do not think Americans are lazy. I also have never heard this prejudice from anybody over here. Whatever our opinions on the Americans, lazyness is most certainly not one of them.
On the working issue: no, you cannot just get fired here, once you have a steady contract. I will explain some more later. -------------
Women hold their councils of war in kitchens: the knives are there, and the cups of coffee, and the towels to dry the tears. |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 11:15
------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey 
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Posted By: Afghanan
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 13:46
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I doubt that was his only reasons. Lieberman is also a conservative Jew, and the #1 threat to Israel's existence was Saddam Hussein.
Israel has nukes ofcourse, and if there was to be any major attack on Israel by Saddam, it could have staged a new deadly precedent in the Middle East.
I also think this is one of the main reasons why Washington thought it was necessary to remove him from power. ------------- The perceptive man is he who knows about himself, for in self-knowledge and insight lays knowledge of the holiest. ~ Khushal Khan Khattak |
Posted By: SearchAndDestroy
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 14:08
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He wasn't alone and the other politicians with him weren't Jewish. I doubt it had to to with his religion at all, so I'm not going to go with that baseless arguement.
From what I understand, Saddam was trying to make better relations with the US before the war. Or atleast wanted to. To attack anyone would have been suicide, his army was destroyed and never returned to it's former self since the first Gulf War, and even then it was still low rate. His only defense really was something of a militia that mutated into the insurgency we have today. ------------- "A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government." E.Abbey
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Posted By: Guests
Date Posted: 12-Aug-2006 at 15:04
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Actually I wouldn't call the Netherlands (or Scandinavia, since I think
it's fair to say that social-economically/politically the Netherlands
is Scandinavian) is socialist, definately not nowadays. In the
Netherlands the welfare state has been created for the most part in the
1950ths, when the country was ruled by a very broad coalition of
social-democrats, christians and liberals, and because of that there
have never been attempts to seriously limit the free market/capitalist
system. For example there have never been large scale nationalizations.
The economic system has always been more capitalist than socialist, the
welfare state was designed as a safety net to take away the bad effects
of capitalism. At least theoretically speaking, real socialist
countries (whatever that may mean) don't need such a safety net. And as Aelfgifu said, the Dutch welfare state is being broken down rapidly, with support even of the social democrats (although not as enthausiastically as the liberals and christian democrats). After privatizations and other neoliberal reforms education and healthcare are in a rather bad state, and I don't think it will be any better soon. [rant]The latest education reform (they're reforming the educational system every 5 years or so) Aelfgifu talked about is another ridiculous one in which universties are considered companies who should compete with each other. According to the reforms it should become possible to swich to another university every month, which is already simply impossible physically speaking, let alone financially and bureaucratically. Also students who study more than 5 years have to pay a ridiculously high college money (IIRC it will be 15000 EUR/y) in order to have students study quicker (it is interesting to note that our current education minister spent 8 years at university). Universities, student organizations and even parts of the business world strongly oppose the reforms, but nonetheless it has been stubbornly pushed through. And that while the Dutch education system is already the least funded (and IMO also one of the worst) of Europe.[/rant] |
Posted By: Genghis
Date Posted: 13-Aug-2006 at 17:56
Nationmaster.com which uses World Bank Data. I also did GDP-PPP.
But we're kind of getting off topic from Joe Lieberman's defeat at the polls. ------------- Member of IAEA |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 00:06
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Yes this has moved alot. I want to continue gloating that the first senator who I ever leanred to despise all the way back in middle school is one of the first senators to loose a primary in decades. ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |
Posted By: Tobodai
Date Posted: 14-Aug-2006 at 23:33
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A great article about Joe Schmoe....
http://www.reason.com/hod/tc080906.shtml - http://www.reason.com/hod/tc080906.shtml
To quote a passage I like very much
"An infinite-state liberal who always found ways to oppose Social Security reform (which he allegedly supported), an absurd moral scold who co-sponsored the "Silver Sewer Awards" with William Bennett, a values buttinski who couldn't resist attaching himself to Terri Schiavo's feeding tube, he was in the final analysis nothing but a fake, a tartuffe, a figure able to puff enough gas into every opportunistic action to make it seem like an example of high principle. (Witness his Captain Renault-level shock when President Clinton's Lewinski scandal came to light—a case of the vapors that conveniently allowed Clinton to duck the more serious legal issues facing him, neutralized the Democrats-as-Woody-Allen-level-perverts trope that was popular at the time, and massively raised Lieberman's own national profile" ------------- "the people are nothing but a great beast... I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value." -Alexander Hamilton |