Ancient Macedonian language
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Topic: Ancient Macedonian language
Posted By: akritas
Subject: Ancient Macedonian language
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 14:04
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To the question, what kind of language did the ancient Macedonians use, the answer can be given based on, what else, the existing references in ancient documents and the excavated inscriptions. What we have concluded is, that the ancient Macedonians were Hellenophon and the original dialect of the Hellenic language they used (Macedonian dialect) was very much similar to the Doric dialect (that is in accordance to Herodotus' references on the common origin of the Dorians and the Macedonians). Later on (in Hellenistic era) that dialect was gradually replaced by the Koini Attiki dialect, just like in all of the other Greek states. Every native Macedonian name, is Hellenic and is formed in the Hellenic way of producing words, as for example the names: "Adista, Philista, Sostrata, Philotas, Perdikkas, Mahatas," and hundreds more And, of course, the strongest evidence of the Greekness of the Macedonian dialect are:
Some years back,a German linguist by the name Otto Hoffman wrote a book with the title "Makedonians, their language and their Ethnicity". Hoffman analyzed the paradoxical or idiomatic words (calling them languages),which past grammaticals,lexicographers and more in general everyone engaged around the Hellenic language had noted them as "worthy to be analyzed" in Makedonia. The official code name that given recetly from the linqustics is
Ancient Macedonian language (provisional ISO-DIS 639-3.5 XMK).
Subgrouping Code : Ancient Greek language or IEGreekB Group code: Greek Language or IEGreek. One from the strong arcaelogical evidence that show what language spoken from the ancient Macedonians is the Pella katadesmos .Is a katadesmos (a curse, or magic spell) inscribed on a lead scroll, probably dating to between 380 and 350 BC. It was found in Pella (at the time capital of Macedon) in 1986; it was published in the Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993.
The tab has been dated by the original publishers to the "Mid-4th century BC or slightly earlier (letter forms, spelling)". This dating has been contested by Prof. Edmonds of Bryn Mawr College, who proposes a 3rd century BC date. The former opinion is concurred by the Oxford Classical Dictionary, in which Professor Olivier Masson writes: "Yet in contrast with earlier views which made of it {i.e. Macedonian} an Aeolic dialect (O.Hoffmann compared Thessalian) we must by now think of a link with North-West Greek (Locrian, Aetolian, Phocidian, Epirote). This view is supported by the recent discovery at Pella of a curse tablet (4th cent. BC) which may well be the first 'Macedonian' text attested (provisional publication by E.Voutyras; cf. the Bulletin Epigraphique in Rev. Et. Grec. 1994, no.413); the text includes an adverb "opoka" which is not Thessalian." (OCD, 1996, pp 905, 906). Of the same opinion is James L. O'Neil's (of the University of Sydney) presentation at the 2005 Conference of the Australasian Society for Classical Studies, entitled "Doric Forms in Macedonian Inscriptions" (abstract): "A fourthβcentury BC curse tablet from Pella shows word forms which are clearly Doric, but a different form of Doric from any of the west Greek dialects of areas adjoining Macedon. Three other, very brief, fourth century inscriptions are also indubitably Doric. These show that a Doric dialect was spoken in Macedon, as we would expect from the West Greek forms of Greek names found in Macedon. And yet later Macedonian inscriptions are in Koine avoiding both Doric forms and the Macedonian voicing of consonants. The native Macedonian dialect had become unsuitable for written documents."  In English the text of Pella katasemos
On Thetima and Dionysophon the ritual wedding and the marriage I bind by a written spell, as well as (the marriage) of all other women (to him), both widows and maidens, but above all of Thetima; and I entrust (this spell) to Macron and to the daimones. And were I ever to unfold and read these words again after digging (the tablet) up, only then should Dionysophon marry, not before; may he indeed not take another beside myself, but let me alone grow old by the side of Dionysophon and no one else. I implore you: have pity for [Phila (?)], dear daimones, [for I am indeed bereft (?)] of all my dear ones and abandoned. But please keep this (piece of writing) for my sake so that these events do not happen and wretched Thetima perishes miserably [---] but let me become happy and blessed
source:
1- Hellenic Dialectology Journal in 1993 2- C. Brixhe, A. Panayotou, Le Macédonien in: Langues indo-européennes, ed. Bader, Paris, 1994, 205–220. 3-http://bibleocean.com/OmniDefinition/Pella_katadesmos 4-Hatzidakis,The language of the ancient Macedonians
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Replies:
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 18:38
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I am not convinced. If you would like to prove anything find more documents. Regarding this document you have written: Is a katadesmos (a curse, or magic spell) inscribed on a lead scroll, probably dating to between 380 and 350 BC. How sure is this "probably"? It is well known that Macedonia became Hellenized during Alexander the Great (356-323 BC) and his father times. Thus, this document is exactly from that time or even later if your "probably" is not that sure. Again some additional sources. To be honest I didn't read originals and not sure that this is propaganda :) If you find the original text I will modify this. So, 1. Demosthenos writes regarding Philip: All these things that were stored by Lakedemons or us (Athen) ... but we are Hellens. This is not the case with Philipp -- he is neither greek nor barbarian from respected country. He is from Macedonia, place where one cannot buy even good slave from... (This is not exact translation).
2. Rufus describes story about judgement of somebody from Macedonia and Alexander asked him whether he prefers to speak Macedonian or greek. The guy said that he will prefer greek since a lot of people around might not understand him. And Alexander said: Did yousee that? He refuse to speak his father tongue. Youse how far he became from his own language and his culture. Thus, Alexander makes difference between his language and macedonian.
3. Story about Olympic games and how macedonians were not allowed to participate in them was discussed before in this forum.
4. Will try to find some other sources.
Thus, there are several other opinions regarding Macedonian language. I do not care, just would like to know the truth whatever it is.  ------------- . |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 19:05
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Akritas, whatever the linguistic proofs, the ancient inscriptions and all the other evidence are, they will always need more. Because they don't want to accept them..
So, it's pointless.. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 19:39
My friend, I didn't start this topic. But for those who are interested, would be probably interesting to know other points of view as well. Especially if they are argumented  ------------- . |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 20:25
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So, although you are not interested about what Alexander’s ethnicity was (you said that and you deleted it half an hour later) you should read greek history (especially the history of Macedonians), if you want to post your opinion instead of posting texts from the FYROMian sites. The Pellas' katadesmos is probably dated before the times of Alexander the Great but maybe during the times of Phillip. This "Hellenization" of Macedonians, means that they started to use the attic dialect which overshadowed the other greek dialects and became the language of all the Greeks. The katadesmos is written in the doric dialect which means that it dates before the supposing "hellenization" otherwise it should have been written in the attic dialect. So, the conclusion is that this text is written in the doric dialect which was the language of Macedonians before their..."hellenization". And you should have always in mind when you're reading about Demosthenes in the FYROMian sites, that he was a sworn enemy of Macedonians. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 20:46
Yes, I said it and then delete it because it was flaming. I never visit sites from Republic of Macedonia.
You said:
they started to use the attic dialect which overshadowed the other greek dialects and became the language of all the Greeks.
Greek! That is the major question. Let us discuss it instead of flaming! It is really interesting question!
That's a good argument.
That I didn't know. It is important to know but it doesn't make sense to me :) ------------- . |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 21:00
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akritas, this seems a well presented work. Certainly it needs more evidence, and if you could provide us more links, or authors it would be great.
I am not trying to say that macedonians were not greek, as I do not know what they were for sure, but in the light of your evidences and proofs, why the general opinion of modern historians do not accept the macedonians being greek.
And second, you certainly provided some of the strong points of the theory about the hellenic identity of the Makednos, but to complete your presentations you should provide even your weakpoints (there surely are some) as well as the strong points of other theories. So we could choose between your statement, and others.
Anyway, thank you, this is a interesting topic! ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 04:19
I tried to provide some of this references but the reaction was maladaptive, I don't know why. ------------- . |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 05:22
So, where is the maladaptive reaction? Just because I mentioned it you should abuse me? Anyway, I don't pay much attention to this.
What's exactly your question about it?
Oh, it is important because whatever Demosthenes said was just slander. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 05:44
The question is what was the Ancient Macedonian language
Regarding Demosthenos -- All that he said is slander??? I would absolutely agree with you if what he wrote would not be supported by others.
Some oftop: 2500 years ago greeks didn't want to allow Macedonians to participate in Olympic games (whatever the reason was) saying that they are not greeks. Now their grandsons try to claim the opposite denying their words. One should be very carefull when saying something. This might have an effect for thousands of years.  ------------- . |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 05:53
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Here is some more information about found Macedonian inscriptions:
http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21116/21116ek/e211pe01.html - http://alexander.macedonia.culture.gr/2/21/211/21116/21116ek/e211pe01.html
Many nice pictures. ------------- . |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 06:28
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What Demosthenes wrote is supported by others to prove what they want to prove without having studied the historical and political background of these times.
Demosthenes pretended to be an Athenian but he was not. Actually he was of semi-barbarian origin but he considered Macedonians as barbarians. He was not reliable.
There were 22 Macedonian Olympic winners recorded since 480 BC. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 06:33
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This is the Linguistics section of the Forum and the topic is "ancient Macedonian language". Please stick to it and respect all opinions!
Irrelevant comments will be deleted. ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 06:56
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Akritas can you kindly summarize isncriptions found in Macedonia? It would be easier for greek speaking person... Is the list of them from greek ministry of culture full? If not where could I found the others? ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 09:16
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Yiannis thanks for your remark.This thread consern the language and not the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians. Anton you can read the insriptions that found in Macedonia as also and the texts through the Epigraphical database
http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/search_main.html - http://epigraphy.packhum.org/inscriptions/search_main.html
Of course all are in the ancient Greek language.Also I want to add some critical points regarding the ancient Macedonian language.
Linguistically, there is no real distinction between a dialect and a language without a specific factor. People usually consider the political factor to determine whether a certain kind of speech is a language or a dialect. Since the Pan-Hellenic area consisted of many small city- states (Attica, Lacedaemon, Corinth, etc.), and larger states (Molossia, Thesprotia, Macedonia, Acarnania, Aetolia, etc.), it was common knowledge at the time that the people of all those states were speaking different languages, when in fact they were all variations of the same language, Hellenic or Greek. The most advanced of all Hellenic dialects was the dialect of Attica (Athens) or Attic. When people state “ancient Greek language” they mean the Attic dialect and any comparison of the Macedonian dialect to ancien Greek is actually a comparison to the Attic dialect.
The difference between Macedonian and Attic was like the difference between Low and High German. Nobody doubts that both are Germanic languages, although they differ from one another. Another good example of a multi-dialectal linguistic regime is present-day Italy. The official language of Italy is the Florentine, but common people still speak their own dialects. The same goes and in the present Greece.The Cretans speak their own dialect, even and for some Greeks is very difficult to understand them As I mention in my first post German kinguistic Hoffman considers 40 names of official Makedonians found on an inscription from 423 B.C adding:
""In final analysis it is possible that the name VYRGINON KRASTWNOS is of Thracian origins,while independent remains the name DIRVE.....ALL the other names are BEAUTIFULL,CLEAR,HELLENIC CONSTRUCTIONS and only two of them NEOPTOLEMOS and MELEAGROS could have been loans from the HELLENIC MYTHOLOGY. "" Hoffman considers the names of the populations of upper or Western Makedonia including the Orestians(Kastoria),Eordians(P*tolemais-Arnissa),Tymfaians(Pi*ndos-Konitsa), Elimiotians(Kozani),and Lyngestians(Florina-Monastiri. He considers and analyzes the names of the King's body-guards,of the generals,of the administrative employees,of the leaders of the Makedonian cavalry,the leaders of the name and army,and those of many other common people of the 5th and 4th and even later centuries. His conclusions? ""THE NAMES OF THE GENUINE MAKEDONIANS AND THOSE BORN OF MAKEDONIAN PARENTS ,ESPECIALLY THE NAMES OF THE ELITIC CLASS AND NOBLES,IN THEIR FORMATION AND PHONOLOGY ARE PURELY HELLENIC." And he continues,... ""The general Hellenic character of the Makedonians linguistic treasure can not be disputed even in case some of them might be loans from the Hellenic Mythology or from non-hellenic myths or for the better pre-hellenic myths (Teytamos-Marsyas-Seilinos....*). The reason? Both Hellenic mythology and pre-Hellenic SUCH,contributed many of their names not only in the Makedonian but as well in thegeneral hellenic vocabulary of names. Names that in their phonology and the laws governing their formations are clearly different than those Thracians and Illyrians,and they can not even be used as "in between" those and the Greek ones. Also Anton as about the case of the Philota trial and Curtius is known. The best answer you can read in
http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/AlexandrosPatrius.htm - http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/AlexandrosPatrius.htm
or
http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/PhilotasPatriusSermo.pdf - http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/PhilotasPatriusSermo.pdf
And finally why we didn't find any other inscription written in a non-Greek text, not only in Macedonia but and in the others places until now ?
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 11:36
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well akritas, you make a point, we never found other inscriptions in the balkans, except that in hellenic language. But this doesnt mean that this region was inhabitated only by greeks. We know that there were also barbarians, who didnt write their language, and in the few inscriptions they needed, they used greek. The ruling class of this barbarians might have been educated in greek...And the fact that sometimes a place was referred as barbarian, or sometimes hellenic, this could probably mean that there was a political debate about including this countries (and their population) in the Hellenic culture, or not. Generally this countries (macedonia, epirus etc) were in the borders of the greek speaking area, so I guess it was better to have them allied, than to keep calling them barbarians. A process of cultural hellenization, starting from the upper strata, might have started in the V century B.C.
If someone 1000 years later finds an inscription in english regarding the adherence of Greece in the EU, he wouldnt suppose that the greeks were english speaking, would he?
I am not saying that the Macedonians didnt speak greek, they probably did, but I just expressed my doubt. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 11:47
Not quite. They used the Greek alphabet but wrote in their own language and not in Greek, e.g. Brygians.
What is the example you have in mind? ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 11:52
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But the repeated contestation doesn't prove anything... In this way we could say that the greco-phonic tribes (Dorians, Acheans, Ionians, Aeolians etc) were not original greek speaking tribes but maybe for some reason they adopted the greek language... And what about their names? They adopted greek names too? The hellenization started in the 4th century BC or maybe in the 10th BC? ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:04
We could suppose that also, even though it is not worth, because in the moment that this tribes appeared in history, they were hellenic.
And regarding the names, we know them only through the hellenic sources,which could mean that the names were given a hellenic shape.If the persians wouldn exist until now (iranians) probably we wouldnt know the real name of Darius, Xerxes etc.
Yiannis, the Illyrian rulers used greek and later latin languages for their official inscriptions. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:08
I agree with you Yiannis. On the other hand, they (nongreek inscriptions) are not as numerous as greek ones. For example, as far as I remember, Thracian inscriptions are limited to short 3-4 texts and several words. In contrast, greek inscriptions are more numerous. Does that mean, that Thracian language is close to greek? ------------- . |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:34
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Arber, I have some questions to ask... Why do you use different methods or theories to explain congener cases?
On the one hand, although Macedonians spoke greek, their original language wasn't the greek (although we don't have evidence) and they just adopted it.
On the other hand Arvanites, were Albanians because they spoke the albanian language, so there is no controversy about their original language or their ancestry.
Why? ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:35
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Do you expect that inscriptions placed in public places, meant to describe boundaries, or appeals to the Gods or laws that the commoners should follow or royal decrees etc, would be written in a language that the vast majority of the population would be alien to?
Still we haven't addressed the issue: what was the language of these people? ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:38
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I want to make my point more clear as about the segeration that had the Greeks as about the Barbarians in Ancient Greek Linguistic There are two sources
Isocrates
And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood”[panygirika 50]
In the above quote you can see that Isocrates mention that the real Greeks were those that adopted the Greek culture and not those who share a common blood
Strabo
The term "barbarize," also, has the same origin; for we are wont to use this too in reference to those who speak Hellenic badly, not to those who talk Carian. So, therefore, we must interpret the terms "speak barbarously" and "barbarously-speaking" as applying to those who speak Hellenic badly. And it was from the term "Carise" that the term "barbarize" was used in a different sense in works on the art of speaking Hellenic; and so was the term "soloecise," whether derived from Soli, or made up in some other way
[14,II,28]
Clearly you can see that the barbarians also applied in those that speak bad Greek either were also Greeks by genus. Accusations of Macedonians being barbarians started in Athens and they were the result of political fabrications based on the Macedonian way of life and not on their ethnicity or language
Now arber is not only the usage of the Greek names by Macedonians that proove the usage from the a Greek dialect but also and the Myths as descibed in my previous post.
Also despite the lack of Macedonian texts written in the local language the nature of Macedonian may be discerned from certain testimonia, from about 100 surviving Macedonian words and from several hundred Macedonian names.
1) TESTIMONIA. There are three ancient pieces of indirect evidence of a conclusive nature: a) in a scene from the attic comedy MACEDONIANS, by the fifth century writer Stattis, an Athenian asks "h sfyraina d' esti tis;" ('sledfish, what do you mean?') and a Macedonian replies "kestran men ymmes vttikoi iklhskete" ('wha ye Attics ca' a hammer-fush, ma freen') . In order to appreciate the value of the Macedonian's reply for the problem under discussion we must not forget that as is clear from many passages in Aristophanes, the attic comedians made their non-Greeks speak broken Greek with an admixture of barbarian words (some of them imaginary) while Lacedaemonians, Megarians Boiotians and other Greeks spoke their own dialects. The Macedonian's reply is in good Greek with dialect (ymes, sfyraina) and archaizing elements (kiklhskete) b) Alexander the Great having selected thirty thousand Persian youths, gave an order that they were to "learn Greek letters and be trained in the use of Macedonian weapons". From this it may be deduced that the MAcedonian soldiers spoke Greek: It would be pointless to teach the young Persians who were to fight alongside the Macedonians a language that the Macedonians did not understand. c) an ambassador from Macedonia speaking to the Aitolians in 200BC says of the Macedonians, the Aitolians and the Arkanians that they spoke the same language. The expressions "aneboa makedonisti" "makedonisti th fvnh" klp have been taken by opponents of the thesis that the Macedonians were Greeks as indicating that their language differed from Greek; the supporters of this thesis declare that these formulation indicate a Greek dialect (cf "aiolizein th fvnh", "attikizei", "attikisti", "boivtiazein","dvrizein" etc). The expressions are in fact susceptible of either interpretation and cannot therefore be used to form part of the argumentation with which either is supported. Their sense will become clear after Maceonian has been shown to be Greek, or not, from other data 2) WORDS. Today, over 150 Macedonian words and a few hundred Macedonian names are known from a variety of sources. Although the names presuppose words, they will be examined separately for a number of methodological reasons.I will post it some of them soon
and there are more but I will be tired
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:55
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Here some Macedonian words Aa. Aghma.
Two meanings, the soldiers walking in front of a Royal proccession, and/or a special unit of the Makedonian army. Skoidos.
Name of Makedonian Juror-Judge. Pyklih.
Species of bread (Bathara)--(Pyrlos). Millakes.
Young boys between 4-8 years old, co-players of the Royal children. Korinatos.
The Bastards. Kydar.
Grave, tomb. Hrakleia.
The name of many Makedonian and other cities. -------------
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:11
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Akritas, did I understand you correctly, that these words are Macedonians but not other greek languages/dialects? ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:40
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These words are Greek and belong in the ancient Macedonian language.
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:47
So, you mean that they were used in other dialects too? I would just ask to clarify this point. ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:54
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Yes and No Anton.Had Identified as Greek and some belong to the Macedonian standalone and some others have roots from the others Greek dialects.
E.g. the word akrounoí ('boundary stones' ) came from the attikan word ákros.
or
árgella that found first in Sicely (attic) as árgilla
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Posted By: Arbër Z
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 14:09
I never said that the spoke greek or not, I just doubted on this. If they spoke greek in a certain period, then of course, in that period they were hellenes. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 15:34
The issue about Alexander's ethnicity was discussed in this thread, some might be interested to have a look:
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9874&KW=macedonian+language&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9874&KW=macedonian+language&PN=1
Ts,ts,ts ... As I pointed on many occasions before the Greeks do not have a monopoly on Balkan history so no need for Anton to read Greek history books in order to make educated suggestions. And the Macedonian (to which you condescendnigly refer to as Fyromian) point of view of the Ancient Macedonian language is as valid as the Greek view.
Anton has made some very valid points, and your suspicion of his intentions are totally unjustified. For those that defed real history in a scientific way there is no reason to fear the opposite point of view, because the best way to test the validity and thruthfulness of a theory is by challenging it with counter-theories. But as usual all we see are attempts to preach the Greek dogma on the ancient Macedonian language.
To me this thread just seems like another attempt to desperately prove the ancient Macedonian language was Greek.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 15:53
Do you have any serious against argyment as about this ""desperately thread"" or is another speculation without prooves?
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 16:12
I presented my sources and opinion in the thread below, and so have you. In fact many of the things in your post above, can be found in the thread below.
http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9874&KW=macedonian+language&PN=1 - http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=9874&KW=macedonian+language&PN=1
If by "serious arguments" you mean arguments that support your point of view on the Macedonians, no I do not have them.
Some Macedonians would claim that Ancient Macedonian was a slavic language. Of course such allegations are utter garbage.
But most historians and classicists would also strongly doubt the Greek claims that they spoke Greek or were ethnically Greek.
Ancient Macedonians (like the Thracians) may have used the Greek script or they might have even borrowed some Greek vocabulary, but this in no way proves that their language was Greek. My view was and still remains that Macedonians, although they gradually incorporated aspects of Greek culture in their own society, maintained a distinct ethnic and linguistic identity as a Balkan people, a view that is also shared by Prof. Borza of Harvard University and many others. With some familiarity of the more recent Balkan history it is not too hard to see what really lies behind the Greek claims on Ancient Macedonian history and language.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 16:58
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I shall remind you that the name of the thread is the ancient Macedonian language. Your mentioned thread was a debate as about the ethnicity of them.You compared the Thracian language (4 inscriptions) with the Macedonian (3000 inscriptions) but you didn't tell us that the Thracian did not has take any classification as about its origin when the Macedonian took it. So do you have any argyment (inscription, language characteristics e.t.c) that proove your claim or is another one speculation?
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:31
akritas,
You do realize that ethnicity and language, in particular in the Balkans, are closely related. If you prove the Macedonian language Greek, or vice versa you would have done the same for ethnicity. It is precisely because of that thaty I think this thread is redundant and I would not be surprised if it evolves towards being a duplication of the other threads.
The language of the Macedonians is discusses here:
http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/AncientMacedoniansandLanguage.html - http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/AncientMacedoniansandLanguage.html
(which I have no doubt you will dismiss as "fyromian" propaganda, but maybe the more open minded readers can have a look)
I will paste an interesting article by Von Otto Hoffmann.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:37
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I prefer to wait your Hoffman article bg_turk -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:41
 Although the author of this article considers Macedonian to be a Greek "dialect", he does also suggest that it was incomprehensible to the other Greeks. I think one of the prime requirements of two spoken dialects to be a member of a single language is their mutual comprehesibility. Apparently that was lackin in the case of Macedonian and Greek.
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:52
 Please read the previous posts and you will unnderstand why the Greek Macedonian dialect consider as barbarian from the others Greeks!!!!
And one more think. The half of them have as source the Otto Hoffman -------------
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:53
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Friends, could we first collect all linguistical points of view, then some archeological data and historical sources? I, actually, hoped that we could collect all points in one post at the end but such coordination between hot balcanic nations seems to be impossible ------------- . |
But I support BG_turk that it is difficult to use only linguistical analysis in such question... Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 17:57
Here is a piece of evidence in support of the thesis that Macedonian was NOT Greek:
http://www.prah.net/europaveneta/augustan/updateonveneti.htm - http://www.prah.net/europaveneta/augustan/updateonveneti.htm
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:17
Your above statement and your latter link is desperate attempt by you in order to support your claim as about the ancient Macedonian language.Your link is a utter garbage as you said.
So agree or not that the ancient Macedonian language was a Proto - (West) Slavic as the author of your link claim ? -------------
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:26
BG_turk, my advise is not to answer this question. Classical provocation :)
If you say no, that will disprove the whole content of these web sites. If you say yes, some sources about Slavic invasion in 6th century AD will be posted. In both cases you lose.
Guys, let us return to the topic back! ------------- . |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:32
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:33
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The above were passages from
Ancient Macedonians
J.S.G Gandeto
edit: sorry for the poor quality but it is still readable
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:38
I cannot imagine how the Ancient Macedonian language would in any way reseble the language of the Slavs, but it is possible that it affected the language of the Slavs that arrived, so the language of the Macedonian slavs migh contain some ancient Macedonian elements
In any case that I disagree with some of what the author said, does not mean that I disagree with all of what he said. And he does have very valid points arguing that Macedonian was not a Greek dialect.
If Alexander himself has uttered that he does not understand Greek and asked that Macedonian be spoken on that trial, then what better evidence that Macedonian was a distinct language?
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:47
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Dear bg_turk the author of your google book pages is the known Slavmacedonian nationalistic J. S. Gandeto as you said. http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0595233066&id=L6xBsaLlFyYC&printsec=titlepage&dq=MacedonianAs - http://books.google.com/books?vid=ISBN0595233066&id=L6xBsaLlFyYC&printsec=titlepage&dq=MacedonianAs
There is a similar article from him in
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/gandeto.html - http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/gandeto.html
As you see I avoid to bring sourses from several propagndistic web site as you do.I prefer Universities or the Jstor!!!.
So finally agree with the Veneti or Proto west Slavic theory because Gandeto,Stefou and many known nationalistic support this hypothesis.
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 18:54
On what do you base these assertions?
In the other thread I did present books and articles published by Harvard, Princeton, and other universities.
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Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 19:14
Akritas, with all my respect, such sort of argumentation is far from brilliant... ------------- . |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 05:16
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Anton what is this about? What a pathetic reaction is this? Are we here to discuss or to make coalitions?
I can't understand what you said "Bg Turk don't answer this question because blah blah blah" Are you a lawyer?
Have you come in this forum to talk against Greece or not? And please don't tell me that in another thread you ask for advice about how to be a philhellene
 . More than half of your posts in this forum is against anything greek.Bulgarian (including the Bulgarians from FYROM) nation always try to baptize the bulgarian language "Macedonian" and the Bulgarians "descendants of the ancient Macedonians". So stop this coalition about how to answer and what to answer because we are not in the court.
And Bg Turk, when Anton refers to Demosthenes and what the other Greeks said about Macedonians, it's necessary to read the greek history and not the history of the other Balkanian nations (I didn't expect from you to remind me that they have history too because I know it but when you try to abuse someone you should do it with something which is close to the topic). ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 05:49
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Dorian, I respect you and akritas but sometimes your argumentation makes me disapointed. Any sort of arguments, whether they are true or not that are against greek point of view are called nationalistic by you. Why? In this particular question the language of ancient Macedonians has two points of view. One "greek" is supported by greeks considers that it was branch of greek language. To support this, arguments are linguistic. Rather good to my opinion. Another school "nongreek" tries to support that it is not greek language. And main arguments are ethnical, from different sources . Which is also rather convincing. But you dont want to discuss other points of view. And to support your ideas you use very disapointig arguments, like casuistic and offense in "fyromicity" and nationalism. That's why I support BGturk even if I don't agree with him (I think that question is far from solution yet). ------------- . |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:28
Not quite the case. The truth is that Greeks had a tedency to regularize foreign names into greek sounding names.
The name Darius for example is the regularization of the old Persian name Dârayawuð but there is a fundamental difference with the case of Macedonians.
All the regularised foreign names like the Persian or the Illyrian ones, have no meaning in Greek. On the other hand, the Macedonian names are completely meaningful in greek in their original forms, therefore there was no need anyone to regularize them and furthermore no need anyone to assume they are foreign. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:36
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I didn't know that it's offense to call people from FYROM, "FYROMians". In this way I shouldn't call you "Bulgarian".
You always disagree with anything posted from the greek side and sometimes without any obvious reason. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Raider
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:45
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Well, according to a Hungarian univesity textbook the Macedon was either a Greek dialect or a separate language very close to Greek.
I have always thought this duality might be similar to the Croat-Serb, Slovak-Czech etc. questions.
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Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:45
I havent got much free time to read the article but you are wrong on your assumption. If i visit the island of Lesbos, i cant understand what they are saying although their dialect is a greek one. If i move to the island of Crete, things are a little better but still i have sometimes problems to understand what some of them say. Dialects have these peculiarities. If ancient Macedonians and Greeks had different languages and couldnt understand eachother, they would simply have translators. Apparently they never had. Macedonians used translators only with Persians and Illyrians for the simple reason, they couldnt understand eachother. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 06:48
As usuall, you don't want to understand properly my words. I mean that anything posted from macedonian sites makes you wild :) And I am not from FYROM, I am from Bulgaria. And I very often agree with a lot of things posted from greek site. Sorry for continuous flaming... ------------- . |
Posted By: Perseas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 07:01
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Another point i would like to make is sth i have spotted long ago in such discussions. Until now it seems all the archaeological inscriptions found and mostly the curse tablet of 4th cent. BC, which is the oldest 'Macedonian' text we have, are proving that Macedonians spoke a dialect related to North-West Greek. Now, if arhaeologists discover eg. an inscription written in a different language than greek, and its older than the existing ones, this is obviously evidence that Macedonia had a language/dialect which wasnt greek.
But if they dont, as they havent found all these decades, this is only taken as evidence, from the posts i read that "Macedonia borrowed some greek vocabulary". In other words, according to what you write, if they find archaeological discoveries, older than the existing in a different language that's proof Macedonia wasnt greek and if they dont, its proof Macedonia was kinda hellenized therefore it wasnt greek again. All these examples, mean exactly nothing at all could be accepted as evidence that Macedonians were of greek origin since only evidence that they werent is counted. It is logical that in order to perform a genuine discussion of a theory you must permit the possibility of evidence that would count against it. If you do not, the discussion cannot be genuine or constructive, because a discussion that is run with the presumption that nothing could count as a failure of a point is no real discussion at all, its a joke. ------------- A mathematician is a person who thinks that if there are supposed to be three people in a room, but five come out, then two more must enter the room in order for it to be empty. |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 07:01
Did I say that you are from FYROM? I referred to you as Bulgarian.
Nothing of the other aspects makes me wild... When I read an inscription and I can easily comprehend it or I notice that it's close to my language, I won't get angry if someone else says that this inscription is in slavic, bulgarian or chinese. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 08:25
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Actually I wanted to ask a question long time ago. What is the difference between greek dialect and separate language similar to greek? For example Italian and Spanish are similar to each other and they understand each other more or less (at least as I was told). But they are different. Do you consider such a possibility with Ancient Greek language and ancient Macedonian? ------------- . |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 08:51
Quite simply: a language is a dialect with an army and a flag...
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 09:07
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Bg_turk i have my conclusion as about the Gandeto because the all book is tottally un-accurate and has only speculations.
The best answer(except of course the Hoffman) as about him and the claim of the Mekdonisti came from Worthington "Alexander the Great: A Reader" page 21
 Anton why advise the bg_turk to give answer in my question ? He spoken for utter garbage and after bring me Panslavist sourse as about the amcient Macedonians.Are you agree with this theory?
As about in your question my answer is the Greek language phonetically and grammatiically is diffrent from the other languages .This is the reason that Greek language is standing alone group.The Greek language doesn't have any bro language. -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 09:50
Bulgarian is an ethnic descirptor, FYROMian is not. You wouldn't call someone from the USSR, a USSRian, or fromthe USA USAian, or from the UK, UKian. It is ridicuslous to insist on using such acronyms to describe an entire people. It shows you have no respect for them. |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 10:00
Yannis, if we accept your thesis, then Macedonian language is separate language. Linguistical analysis (based on the inscriptions found after 4th cent. BC) shows that it was rather close to greek language but some amount of known words (I have tried to ask akritas for the details of this some) were not the same. Some sources point the difference between them -- like those about Philota, and the fact that Macedonians had been required to learn greek language (that I read somewhere and maybe not true  ) and some others. On the other hand, many sources points their cultural proximity to Hellen world. We know that some greeks were against paricipation of macedonians in Olympic games claiming that they are not Hellens, but they participated anyway. The later suggests that they were different from other greeks but still very close culturally (and, maybe ethnically as well). Macedons had a lot of greek names or names that have meaning in greek. But these names (at least some of them) also have meaning in slav languages.
Did I miss something? These, shortly, are controversial facts. And I, personally, do not find convincing any of the previous attempts from, let's say, both schools, to somehow explain them. The only interesting point had been shown by dorian that hellenization cannot explain totally proximity between languages because in this case it shouldn't be close to dorian but to Attik dialect instead.
And again, I couldn't miss the oportunity to put some off-topical genetical stuff -- if you look at people living in modern Macedonia (I mean all parts of it) and Greece you will not find signifficant difference between them (genetically). And modern folk culture is similar also. But all this is probably far from the topic.
Taken together all that, I cannot understand the reason for such an expressive figthing between co-forumers.
Akritas, because panslavism is not a methodology of history but feature of a historian itself. Thus, if you suspect some historian in panslavism you by that way do not disprove his findings.
------------- . |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 10:07
My point remains that for two spoken languages to be considered dialects there must be some mutual comprehensibility. Charge for instance argues that modern Makedonski is a dialect of Bulgarian and he has a point because we can understand say more than 80% of what is spoken. I understand most, if not all, dialects of Turkish or Bulgairan, even the most remote ones I can confidently say I understand at least 50% of. According to the sources I gave, this was not the case between Macedonian and Greek - they were mutually incomprehensible. How closely related they were, and whether that relationship is enough to justify to classify them as members of one single linguistic group is for linguists to decide when sufficient archealogical scripts are found, but for the moment the best is to trust the words of Alexander and the other Macedonians, and even the Greeks. If they could not understand each other when they spoke their native languages, then I'd say their native languages were different and not simply dialects of each other. As to your point that Macedonians never used translators with Greeks, Alexander never needed a translator because he was raised in Greek culture, he participated in the Olympic cames despite objections of his Barbarianism, and as a nobility it is only natural that he spoke Greek. But this is no evidence that ordinary Macedonians did not need translators when interacting with Greeks, and I have yet to see evidence of Greek being spoken to the Macedonian soldiers. All evidence, including that which akritas posted, show that whenever Macedonian sodliers were spoken to in Greek, they did not understand and asked to be spoken to in their native language. Greek was incomprehensible to them. For me this is enough evidence to prove that Greek and Macedonian were different languages. |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 10:53
Anton, what I posted was not a "thesis" but an ironic remark instead... If you want to use it to prove something that you already have in your mind, be my guest.
Is there any evidence for the opposite?
Since all the signs that we have are in the Greek language and their names were also Greek, we must assume that ordinary Macedonians not only all knew foreign languages, but also that they named their children with foreign names...
PS
Irrelevant posts deleted, if you care to continue, do so in PM.
------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:00
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The words in ancient macedonian which are not greek are few... In modern greek there are foreign words too. Does it mean that we spoke a different language and these words are remnants of our original language?
------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:05
Yannis as you probably might realize I do not try to prove something but to collect all available data about the question And I still have nothing to prove in my mind. I was trying to summarize everything here without puting any accent. Would you like to help me with that? ------------- . |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:08
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Furthermore, although we have posted it millions of times, even now if we go to Lesvos, or Crete we can't understand their dialect. Does it mean that people there don't speak greek? And I can't believe Macedonians were so interested in being assimilated into the greek nation that they required to learn greek, they gave greek names to their children and spread the greek culture to the areas they conquered.
------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:27
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Since all the signs that we have are in the Greek language and their names were also Greek, And how many signs do you have at all? One or two or at most a few, what a great statistical pool to make conclusions about the ancient macedonian language. You clearly have an agenda to prove the Macedonian language Greek. It is one thing to base your conclusions on existing evidence and to critically analyze your thesis against ALL evidence, completely another to have a predefined thesis and to look for evidence SELECTIVELY in order to support that thesis despite the evidence that doesn't support it. And there is sufficient evidence to suggest that Macedonian was incomprehensible to Greeks, and therefore could not have been the same language as Greek. Despite this you still choose to call it a dialect. Regarding Greek names - many Bulgarian names have Greek origins or are derivatives of Greek names, does this mean that Bulgarian is a Greek dialect. This exampe just illustrates that to judge a language by the names of the people who speak it is totally ridicuslous. PS I really do not appreciate how you deleted my posts. They were not at all irrelevant to the topic, and did give an insight into why Greeks are so keen to prove the Macdonian language is Greek. You once again unseremoniously deleted something with which you disagreed as if you have the absolute power to say what is relevant to a topic and what is true. I do spend time and effort to write my posts. In the future I would like to ask you to stop deleting posts in this unceremonious way, or at least to give some warning so that we can save our work and delete it ourselves. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:36
Do you in all your seriousness claim that you cannot comprehend a single word of the dialects Lesvos and Crete? I'd say then you are in serious need to imrpove the command of your native language. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 11:39
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Where is this "sufficient evidence" that suggest Macedonian was incomprehensible to Greeks? -------------
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:00
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Summirize the argyments as about the Macedonian language we have 5 facts
Fact 1-ISO Identification
Ancient Macedonian language (provisional ISO-DIS 639-3.5 XMK). Subgrouping Code : Ancient Greek language or IEGreekB Group code: Greek Language or IEGreek. Fact 2-Excavated inscriptions Fact 3-Words Fact 4-Evidence of non Greek inscription Fact 5-The Opposite side
Non of them that claim the opposite they don't have any single Linquistic proove in order to support theirs speculations
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:18
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Let me summarize the evidence in support of the thesis that Macedonian was a distinct language (as Anton had suggested): 1. Philotas' trial where the Macedonian language is specifically mentioned (source: Cleitarchus) On that trial Alexander stated: "The Macedonians are going to judge your case, please state whether you will use your native language before them". When Philotas replies he'd rather use Greek to enable the present Greeks to understand as well, the king retorts: "Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is conemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language. " 2. "But Alexander leaped to his feet and shouted in the Macedonian tongue for his bodyguards to turn out, a signal that this was an extreme danger." source: Plutarch , The Age of Alexander "called out in the Macedonian for the shieldbearers" (Plutarch, Greek Lives) 3. Episode with Eumenes, the Greek commander of Macedonian soldiers. He had to instruct a Macedonian to give command to the troops, which clearly shows that the troops needed to be addressed in Macedonian, otherwise he would have addressed them himself. 4. In Plutarch's "Life of Anthony" the Macedonian Dialect was specifically mentioned (the term dialect was applied for Egyptian, Hewbrew, Syrian,... as well) 5. Scholars have found 150 words that exhibit characteristics not found in the Greek language. |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:24
This is not surprising since Greek was the standard writteng language in the Balkans. People who would have been familiar with the Greek script would have been also familiar with the Greek language and it is natural that heavy Greek influence is observed in their writings, whereas most ordinary speakers of the native Macedonian language would not have been able to write down in their language due to their unfamiliarity with the Greek script.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Macedonian was not a written language, so it is natural that very little "hard" copies of have remained. As Greek was the only written language in the area, it is only natural that the part of Macedonian that has remained is heavily influenced by Greek. The absence of scripts of the Macedonian spoken language, is not evidenc of the absence of that language even more so when several contemporaries of Alexander mention that it existed and was incomprehensible to Greeks. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 12:37
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So bg_turk your argyments is only arbitraries conclusions from some of historical written texts and non of them is any solid proove such as incscription.Because I have plenty of them
"Aetolians, Acarnanians, Macedonians, men of the same language"
(T. Livius XXXI,29, 15) "After this Alexandros left Dareios's mother, his daughters,and his son in Susa, providing them with persons to teach them the hellenic dialect,..."
(Diodoros of Sicily 17.67.1)
"They say that these were the tribes collected by Amphiktyon himself in the Hellenic Assembly: ... the Macedonians joined and the entire Phocian race ... In my day there were thirty members: six each from Nikopolis, Macedonia and Thessaly ... "
(Pausanias Phokis VIII, 2 & 4) General Paulus of Rome surrounded by the ten Commissioners took his official seat surrounded by the whole crowds of Macedonians...Paulus announced in Latin the decisions of the Senate, as well as his own, made by the advice of his council. This announcement was translated into Greek and repeated by Gnaeus Octavius the Praetor-for he too was present." and i have 50 more quote(as I remember)
Where you find that 150 Macedonian words are not Greek ? As I know we have found it 154 Macedonian words.Do you know something better? -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:22
Akritas, before we continue, I would like to ask you something. What evidence would be sufficient to pursuade you that Macedonian was different from the Greek language? In your opinion how different do languages have to be in order to be considered seperate languages rather than dialects? Now to answer your question. I think there is a consensus among historians that the existing historical scripts and texts in the "Macedonian language" ( mostly written in Greek letters) are insufficient and inconclusive and do not resolve in a definitive manner the dispute, and that more evidence is needed in order to support or refute the clailms about the origins of the Macedonian language. While some words manifest a strong resemblance of Greek, others are very distinct. Besides in order to form conclusions about Macedonian from these scripts one must assume that hey are correct representations of the spoken language, but having in mind that most Macedonian scholars capable of writing would have been raised and educated by Greeks or in Greece, one can safely assume that there will be a great Greek influence in their writing style even in their native language more so when there exist no written form of their spoken language, and it is looked down as the language of the illiterate masses. The scripts you present are therefore no evidence for the Greekness of Macedonian, they are evidence that those that wrote them were influenced by Greek. |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:40
Ignorance and arrogance at the same time... He prefers advising to answering... ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:44
So answer please. Do you in all your seriousness claim that you cannot comprehend a word of Cretan and Lesvian? Or is it only Cretans and Lesvians who can comprehend their own language? |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 13:59
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One from the primary source to define a language is the writing system. The Blackwell Encyclopedia of Writing Systems defines a writing system as "a set of visible or tactile signs used to represent units of language in a systematic way". This simple explanation encompasses a large spectrum of writing systems with vastly different stylistic and structural characteristics spanning across the many regions of the globe. So the inscription or the script was, is and will be the major definition source of a language Yiannis answer you in your last question. There is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect#.22Dialect.22_or_.22language.22 - no defined line between a language and a http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialect - dialect , but it is often said that http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language-dialect_aphorism - a language is a dialect with an army and a navy , a statement credited to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Weinreich - Max Weinreich .
I told you many times. Were 154 Macedonian words.I am not saying the known words such as Philip or Alexander because are Greeks. 124 words have Greek roots. The others one are unknown, Thracian (Phrygian) and Illyrian origin. The Macedonian inscription not only have Greek letters but also deciphered (ALL) with the Greek language(Grammar,Words,Syntaxis)
The oral language is not proving anything specially when we speak for dead languages as the Macedonian. Languages are not just sets of symbols. They also often conform to a rough http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammar - grammar , or system of rules, used to manipulate the symbols. The scripts proove this conformation. The Macedonian inscriptions have as now that we speaking only Greek language. Linguistics is the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific - scientific study of human http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language - language , and this proove what is the language. You mention for the Macedonian scholars. Can you tell me why non of them written a text different from any known script in order to show this gost language? Not a single sentence? Not only in Lower If we don’t have any inscription that define a different language all the argyments are only arbitraries conclusions
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Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 14:09
Why is it so difficult for you to understand?
Yeah Cretans, Lesvians, Cypriots and many other greek-speaking populations speak dialects that we cannot comprehend. It doesn't mean that we cannot comprehend a single word but the pronunciation or some words or the syntax they use make it difficult for us many times to catch the meaning. Even my grandparents when they talk in the local dialect sometimes I cannot understand them although they speak greek. That's why the greek language is so rich. Apart from the formal modern greek there are so many local dialects. That's what happened in the ancient times too.
Besides haven't you ever heared an englishman from London saying that he cannot comprehend an englishman from northern England? Or an american from New York who says that it's difficult for him to talk with an american from Texas? ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 14:34
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Finally we got some numbers:124 from 154 are considered to be greek. Akritas, do you know any internet source that decribes all of them, translates them into English and shows their greek counterparts? That would be interesting read... Ideally it would be interesting to get the translation of the whole text where every particular word is met but probably it is difficult to find int the internet. ------------- . |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 14:51
As Dorian said is pointless because your opinion is predetermine...and I don't have any internet sourse.
In my first post you can see my sources.Read them even I doubt to read and all the others sources. -------------
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Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 14:54
On a previous post of yours it was mentioned that Philotas answered: "[Above and] beyond the Macedonians ... there are many present whom, I feel, will more easily grasp the things I say if I use the same language you did..." So Greeks would grasp more easily Attik Greek (I assume) than Macedonian. Guess what? This suggests that Macedonian was a Greek dalect. If not, how would it be possible for Greeks to grasp Macedonian, even with difficulty? Moreover, Alexander himself spoke Greek (Attik) in the court. So I don't understand how on earth you reached this conclusion: "If Alexander himself has uttered that he does not understand Greek and asked that Macedonian be spoken on that trial, then what better evidence that Macedonian was a distinct language" ------------- 
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:01
Good question. You are right Alexander spoke Greek, it was for the benefit of the other Macedonians present that he asked Macedonian be spoken. |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:02
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I want to add soemthing for the Philotas trial.
One of the questions that arises out of Curtius' inflated account of the Philotas affair is
Where did Curtius find all this information, with all its details and melodrama? Were records of the trial's proceedings available, which could have been used by Curtius' source(s) or Curtius himself?
and I am explain In Arrian (3.26.1-4), the Philotas-Parmenion affair is only 36 lines + 2 words long Plutarch yields 86 LCL lines + 3 words to the Philotas-Parmenion affair Curtius' account of the Philotas affair, on the other hand, amounts to 619 LCL lines + 81 words, or about 4537.8 words (6.7-1 1.40). All of them have the sames ancient sources All those in exaplainations you can read in http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/PhilotasPatriusSermo.pdf - http://www.history.ccsu.edu/elias/PhilotasPatriusSermo.pdf
Kapetanopoulos make step by step analysis, any word and sentence(latin,Greek,Englih) and proove simply what were the Curtious mistakes regarding with the others ancient writers.
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:04
I am not sure I understand your point here. My point was that Macedonian and Greek are mutually incomprehensible. |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:06
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Right Neoptolemos! That's what I wanted to say but I tried to find the original text to post exactly the answer of Philotas. But you found it first.
But as Akritas understood, they are not open to other opinions. We post evidence and they don't accept them while they have no evidence but just misunderstandings about what ancient Greeks said because they have never study greek history or greek linguistics.
So, that's why I don't like when these threads start. It's pointless to continue.. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:09
And what is exactly that you tried to say, dorian? The exact exchange that took place was: Alexander: The Macedonians are going to judge your case, please state whether you will use your native language before them. Philotas:Besides the Macedonians there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you. Alexander: Do you see how offensive Philotas finds even his native language? He alone feels an aversion to learning it. But let him speak as he pleases - only remember that he is conemptuous of our way of life as he is of our language. Alexander had just spoken in Greek and asked Philotas what language he would have wanted to use. Philotas preferred to use Greeek in order to allow more people to understand, since clearly not everybody understood Macedonian to the contempt of Alexander. |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:13
For one more time....
We gave you example that we don't understand other greek dialects even today.
And the point here is the word "easily". It means that it would be easier for the crowd, which consisted not only of Macedonians but other Greeks as well, to understand the attic greek than the macedonian which indicates that it was more difficult (not impossible) for them to comprehend the macedonian. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedonia�Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:18
My point is that, according to what YOU posted, Philotas says that the Greeks who were present in the court would grasp more easily what he says if he speaks Attik. If he used Macedonian they will still grasp what he said, but with difficulty.
Dorian, I didn't find the original text, but I used what BG posted earlier. I would also like to see the original text, so if somebody has a link to it, I would appreciate it. -------------
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:38
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"Mihi quidem obicitur quod societatem patrii sennonis aspenter, quod Macedonum mores fastidiam. Sic ego imperio quod dedignor, immineo! lam pridem nativus ille s e m commercio aliamg gentium exolevit; tam victoribus, quam victis peregrina lingua discenda est"Alexander's question to Philotas whether the latter was to address the Makedones in the patrius senno (6.9.34) and Philotas' reply (below) to Alexander's accusation that he (Philotas) hated the putrius s e m and did not learn it (ibid. 9.36) are in themselves contradictory. When Alexander asked Philotas about the patrius s e m , Philotas responded that he was going to speak in the same language as Alexander, presumably the koine (above), because, besides the Makedones, there were also many others present and because Alexander's language was understood a pluribus (ibid. 9.35). This response by Philotas would imply that there was a putrius senno and that Philotas knew it, but he preferred to speak in the language Alexander had used for greater comprehension, unless this was a ploy on the part of Philotas to cover up his not knowing the putnus senno, as accused by Alexander and later by Bolon (below). The contradiction in the pazrius senno motif shows up later, too, when Philotas in defending himself (6.10.23) says that the parrills sernlo had become obsolete because of the intercourse with other nations (lam pndem nativus ille sermo commercio aliarum gerzrium exolevit) , with the comment tam victoribus, quam victis peregrina lingua disceitda esr.
How could Philotas state in the contio that the patrirrs sermo was no longer spoken, if it was still in vogue as suggested by Alexander's question? And how could Alexander pose such a question if the patrius s e m was no longer spoken as Philotas declared? What is the balance here? Or is this patrius sermo motif a dramatic introduction by Curtius' source(s) or even Curtius himself?
Plutarch, for example, has preserved evidence of this "patrius sermo motif" in such expressions as makedonisti
Neoptelemos the original text and the explainations from Kapetanopoulos. -------------
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Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:47
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Thank you akrita. I appreciate your work in this thread. -------------
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:52
Firstly, the assumption that macedonian and greek were mutually incomprehensible is not true. What is true is that it was not easily understood by other Greeks. Even your argumentation which i made bold, is against your assertion. Alexander I, obviously spoke a language comprehensible to the rest of greeks while he was in the olympics, otherwise they simply couldnt understand a thing from what he said. Not only that but his exact words according to Herodotus were: "Men of Athens... Had I not greatly at heart the common welfare of Greece I should not have come to tell you; but I am myself Greek by descent, and I could not willingly see Greece exchange freedom for slavery.... If you prosper in this war, forget not to do something for my freedom; consider the risk I have run, out of zeal for the Greek cause, to acquaint you with what Mardonius intends, and to save you from being surprised by the barbarians. I am Alexander of Macedon." If Alexander I as Macedonian, spoke a language incomprehensible to Greeks then obviously the Persian General Mardonius wouldnt appoint him (i remind you that during Persian wars, Macedonia was a vassal to Persians) as his words-transporter to greeks. Furthermore, during the 5th century, we have classical Greek tragedists such as Euripides writing, producing and presenting some of the great greek tradegies in Pella. For example Iphigenia in Tauris was written in Pella. Its apparent, a tragedy played in attic greek wouldnt be presented to the wide Macedonian audience if that tragedy was incomprehensible to the macedonian audience. The examples are many but to make it short i would like to remind you that the vast majority of personal names in ancient Macedonia as well as the toponyms are in Greek something very peculiar for non-Greek speakers as to the fact that all army terms from unit organization, to weapons, to ranks, to unit locations etc are all in Greek and all these words have a full meaning in greek language, they are not simply regularizations as it happened with foreign languages. I think that these simple arguments are enough to demolish any position to the contrary. -------------
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:57
Do you say that because you genuinely believe in his arguments, or because he is a Greek? |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 15:58
Thank you Neoptolemos
And i have a couple thinks to post.One is the Macedonian poetry
So we listen from the people that are against in the Greek language that maybe only the royal Macedonian family and possibly the Macedonian nobility spoke greek.
Then..
If so, how come Greek was the language that ordinary Macedonians like Posidippus, Adaeus, Heggesepus or Phaedimus also wrote poetry in?
Why did they wrote to a so called from the propagandists, "foreign" language and didnt use theirs?
Why didn't all the rest of neighbouring countries (Illyrians, Paeonians, etc) who used also Greek, at least their elite, didnt wrote Greek poetry?
http://www.chs.harvard.edu/publications.sec/classics.ssp/issue_i_posidippus.pg - http://www.chs.harvard.edu/publicati..._posidippus.pg http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...anth_bio3a.htm - http://ancienthistory.about.com/libr...anth_bio3a.htm Macedonien Poets(not Royals) that written in Greek language
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Posted By: bg_turk
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:06
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akritas, Alexander was raised and educated by Greeks and he spoke Greek. That Alexander could interact with Greeks in Greeks does not prove nor does it deny the relationship between Greek and Macedonian. Regarding the last paragraph that millitary terms were commonly used in Macedonian, it again is not a proof that Macedonian was a dialect of Greek. Virtually all terms related to computers in Bulgarian are the same in English as well, does this prove that BG and EN are the same language? Not. By the way were the millitary terms in Thracian different? To conclude as I see nothing good coming out of this topic any more ... I laid down my arguments, and I am looking forward to more archaelogical discoveries and scholarly works that once and for all clear up this controversy. |
Posted By: Neoptolemos
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:08
Reply for BG: because he is Greek. Reply for everybody else: akritas has written very informative posts, it is obvious that he has put effert in that and I appeciate him for that. -------------
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:14
Well said Akritas! I would like to remind you all about the ancient Macedonian theater! We know that only the Greeks had theaters in the classical period. The macedonians had four famous theaters that they attended: Dion, Vergina, Philippi, and Thassos. The Dion theater was he first to host the first performance of Euripedes work "Bakchae". Bakchae is all written in Greek so the simple citizens attending it in Macedonia had to understand it. Euripedes wrote Bakchea while being in Pella. He was also burried there according to Pausanias (Attica II, chapter 2): "Euripides lies buried in Macedonia" The most popular theater works in Macedonia was Athenian. Peaces of local works have been found as well but are incomplete. The important on this case is that the texts are in greek. -------------  
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:15
What are the origin of the below sentence ? Greek or English?
Parallel to this, we have to synchronize and harmonize more and more our economic and numismatic policies panethnically.
These scopes are more practical now, when the prognostics of the political and economic barometer are halcyonic. -------------
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Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:17
How you know that Alexander was raised and educated by Greeks and he spoke Greek ? -------------
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Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:21
I guess you mean Aristoteles when you say "by Greeks" right? -------------
SÃ¥ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 16:24
Well, I don't know. Words seems to be of greek origin but the meaning of these sentences is not obvious ------------- . |