Arvanitic, a dying language
Printed From: History Community ~ All Empires
Category: Scholarly Pursuits
Forum Name: Linguistics
Forum Discription: Discuss linguistics: the study of languages
URL: http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=13119
Printed Date: 25-Apr-2024 at 15:22
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Topic: Arvanitic, a dying language
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Subject: Arvanitic, a dying language
Date Posted: 03-Jul-2006 at 20:58
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The Arvanitic language, a variance of the albanian tosk dialect, is spoken in greece even today, but apparently it is dissapearing. This was the language of emmigrant albanians, who settled in greece between the XII and the XVI centuries. This people was able to preserve its culture, even though in the last two centuries they had no link with propper albanian culture. The arvanites are consiously greek, for they lived there, worked there and even fought for greece. But they never forgot their origins, and even when they did, their language, their folklore and their culture always showed the truth ( http://www.arvasynel.gr - www.arvasynel.gr Sorry but this is in greek). But, for some ununderstandable reasons, their language is dying and their culture dissapearing. It would be in the honor of the modern Greek state to help this people preserve their language.
A sample of the language compared to greek:
  ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Replies:
Posted By: Gloval
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 01:15
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It's always a loss to all of us when a language or culture disappears. But this is the biological equivalent of a species of tree frog going extinct, it's depolorable but nobody will care much after the fact. That's selfishness for you. ------------- You don't spread democracy through the barrel of a gun. |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 06:16
Look, the human world is great just because it has many cultures in it. I dont think that nobody should care if a culture dies, I dont want to imagine a future world speaking only english, french and chinese. Many languages died till now, and we cant do nothing, but for the ones who are still living I believe there are ways to preserve. Languages should be recorded, studied and teached in schools. The study of a language and its evolution is a much greater help to history than the study of genes, and when we (or they) erase a language, in the same moment entire pages of unvriten history are deleted.
Believe me, it is not selfishness, my own language is safe afterall, and not going to dissapear in the near future.
I know that many people dont care about it, but they shouldnt bother to post replies. But those who love culture (and studying it) cannot pass indifferent. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Anton
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 06:42
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could you please translate what is written in this texts? ------------- . |
Posted By: Leonidas
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 06:49
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Arber Z, i for one would like to see arvanite stay alive in greece, they contributed to the greek state like their greek speaking neighbours, and have their place in the state they created. I think for the little i read on this, that what is happening is just a predictable state of langauge shift that is occuring in most countries around the world. Vlach is also slowing going but for me the watering down of greek dilaects and the slow passing of tsakonian is very upsetting. |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 06:56
It is just basic dialogues, the first is in arberisht (albanian language spoken by the arvanites - gr. arvanitika), while the second is the translation in greek. The arvanitic language for obvious reasons uses greek alphabet (also the propper albanian could be using greek letters but at the end of the XIX century the realation between albanians and our neighbours were not that good). Many people state that arvanites belong to the hellenic culture, and they are hellenes. This is their language, the greek members can check themselves (and can transliterate it in latin for the others). I dont want to talk about genetics, the language says it all. I have read about the toponyms and the ethnonyms of the arvanites, and they are in albanian, it sounds strange how come this people preserved their language for such a long time (since XII century) without schools, and without writing it down. They have a very attractive culture (to study), with their folklore, tales etc. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 12:40
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In the above dialogue it is written... "It's (the arvanitic language) very old, it's the language of Pelasgians who lived here thousands of years ago" ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 14:16
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Arber your dialogues came from the Arvanitiko syllogo Ellados.
http://www.arvasynel.gr/arvanitikoi_dialogoi.html - http://www.arvasynel.gr/arvanitikoi_dialogoi.html
You said that the arvanites were Albanians.According the above organization Arvanites were part of the Hellenism and they are not consider as Albanians at all.Don't forget that during the Ottoman rule many groups were billinguals and one from those were the Arvanites.
As about the language there is bibliography that anyone can buy it
More in
http://www.arvasynel.gr/bibliografia.html - http://www.arvasynel.gr/bibliografia.html
------------- 
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Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 16:57
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That's right. In the official Arvanitic League of Greece, there is no reference to any Albanian origin.
And their language is referred as the language of Pelasgians in Greece. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 20:27
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akritas & dorian. I provided the link arvasynel.gr myself, so I guess I must have visited that site before. Probably is true, their language is the language of the pelasgians. What do you think, is it, or is it not. Please, the words in arvanitic that are written with hellenic letters, can you write them down in latin. I could do that, but I am sure I would mistake, so please, write this mysterious language of the pelasgians with latin letters, we all want to see how does it look like.
And regarding the arvanites being part of the hellenic nation, when did I oppose that? Anyway, it is strange how the culture of this part of your nation is regarded with indiference, and this ancient language "of the pelasgians" is forgotten day after day.
------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: GoldenBlood
Date Posted: 04-Jul-2006 at 20:29
haha who say this?? evidence?
 (maybe ultranacionalist greek)all historians of world and greece too say that Arvanitias are Albanians where emmigratet to Greece from XI-XV Ceuntry in Greece, They still speak old albanian (exp. Tosk Dialect) ------------- Kosova dhe Ilirida, pjese te Dardanise |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 05:52
And the ultranationalist Greeks are the Arvanites of Greece and their official site?
 Because they say that... All historians of world and Greece say that the Arvanites are Albanians? Not all just most of them..
Indeed, most of the Greeks believe that Arvanites are of Albanian origin only because of their language. But how can I believe them when they call "foreigners" even the Greeks who were born out of Greece (US or Australia or Germany) and don't speak Greek very well...That's who I call ultranationalists.
On the other side there are people that call the Arvanites "The Dorians of modern Hellenism".
------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 06:15
It's difficult for us too, I guess. Why is it strange that this ancient language is forgotten day after day? What should we say about the ancient greek dialects (apart from attic) which are totally extinct? That's a sad but natural process. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 06:23
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The arvanite language is 95% identic to the tosk albanian, 85% identic to standard modern albanian, and 70% identic to the Gheg albanian. Now if this is the language of the pelasgians...and if these are the dorians of the modern era... You are right, they never refer to themselves as "albanians" or to their language as "albanian", but this is only because they do not speak standard albanian. They call their language ARBERICHT, the albanians in the medieval times called their language Arberisht, and only after the XVII cent. they started referring to themselves as "shqiptar". So every colony of refugees in greece, italy or romania kept the old ethnonym, arberisht (language of the arber)
Arber - tosk
Arban - Gheg (from this derived the latin alban/eng.albanian)
So the arvanites call their language arberisht, the albanians of italy (which emigrated there in the same years as the arvanites, during the XII-XVIcent) call their language arberisht ( http://www.arbitalia.it - www.arbitalia.it ) and in romanian the language is called arbinishti. In albanian, we often use arberisht.
As you can confirm me, you do not understand their language, while I do understand 100% of it.
We are not here to discuss the national or the political belonging of a community. They might feel hellenes, as they really are hellenes for they have fought for that country.
BUT, we are discussing their culture, what are the origins of that culture, what is it like (the folkloristic costumes of the arvanites are very similar to the albanians etc).And, as I posted before, this culture is dissapearing, and I think that something should be done. Or not?? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 06:27
The point is that this is not ancient, as it exists today. We have all the conditions to help people preserve their culture, and promove that. The ancient greek dissapeares many centuries ago, if it was in modern times I would be one of those who whould love to preserve such a great language.
In your logic it is natural that the whales are going to extint, also the dinosaurs did... ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Giannis
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 06:40
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Ancient greek didn't dissapear, it evolved in modern greek, like lother ancient languages. English for example, I don't think that medieval english is the same with modern english. Arber what shqip means, literally? -------------  Give me a place to stand and I will move the world.
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Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 06:43
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So, let's talk about the Tosks... because Arvanites can talk in their language mostly with Tosks. What's the origin of Tosks? I have met several Arvanites in my life up to now, most of them spoke some arvanitic. All of them have one of their grand-parents who is Arvanite.That's what Albanians cannot understand. That even if the Arvanites were Albanians, modern Arvanites have some arvanitic origin. Of course it doesn't make them Arvanites by origin... Neither culturally, only because they learned some arvanitic from one of their grand parents. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 07:05
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Arvanites themselves say that they're Greeks who's ancestors came from Albania and settled mainly around Athens. If this is true or a story they made up to protect themselves from prejudice, I don't know, I just take their word for it. Language is indeed almost identical to Albanian but is barely spoken nowadays. At least a friend and colleague of mine who says he's "Arvanitis", doesn't speak a word, other, mainly elders, still do.
Pity because the linguistic richness of a country should be treated as a national cultural treasure. At least some cultural clubs like the above-mentioned try to preserve the language and the customs of the Arvanites. ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 11:21
There are only few people like Yiannis, unfortunately...I agree with him, the lilnguistic and the cultural herutage should be perceived as a national cultural treasure, in every country. What Yianni said, about the arvanites origin is true, they are greeks, and they came long ago from albania (albanian origin).They originate from the tosk albanians.
Dorian, the tosks are southern albanians, they speak a dialect of albanian which is highly intelligible with the Gheg, that is the northern albanian dialect (I am a tosk). You asked me for their origin, maybe I didnt understand you, but did you mean THEIR GENETIC ORIGIN??I dont like genetic, culturally they belong to the albanian ethnos. It is very probable that they could have had even some greek ancestors, but this could be true also for the gheg. Listen, friend, until the ottoman occupation, greeks and albanians didnt consider themselves very different (so intermarried).
The presence of the arvanites should be another reason why our countries should get closer, and should improve the interstate relations.
Again @ Dorian, it is true, many arvanites have only few arvanite ancestors, but what does that mean. That doesnt make them better people, or worse people. The point is, if they were not Albanian (not politically but culturally)-why should they preserve this language through the centuries?If they were hellenes, lets suppose they spoke albanian as a second language, when they came to attica and settled in the middle of the greek lands, what made them speak this language(arberisht), keep these costumes and call themselves arvanites?They could just forget all of this, and we wouldnt know anything nowaday. This didnt happen in the last 6 centuries, but apparently is happening in this modern times. Why?It is not fair, we cannot say that "life is like that". At least, one who loves history, and loves culture, cannot say that... ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:20
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Regarding the Tosks, they probably come from epirotic-greek tribes which were albanized or anything. Arvanites are close or belong to them. Of course modern Tosks belong to the albanian nation and as any other population which is assimilated culturally and genetically into another nation they are not greeks by origin (some albanian or some greek origin doesn't make you albanian or greek respectively). They were intermarried with the Albanians.
Let's not talk about it any more.Back to the topic.
I'll give you an example... One of my fellow-students has an Arvanite grand-father from whom he learned some arvanitic words, his grand-mother is from Chios and the other two grand-parents of him are Cretans. So, how could you characterize him who speaks some arvanitic? An Arvanite by origin? An Arvanite by culture? Name me one reason for him to preserve the arvanitic culture while he doesn't belong to an arvanitic family. Can you understand why the arvanitic language comes to extinct? ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:27
One who speaks only some words of arvanitic does not have arvanite culture. But how come this language survived till now (I dont believe that nobody speaks it anymore), I think they always intermarried with greeks, so this is not the main reason. If there were primary schools in arvanitic language, if there were festivals fo arvanitic culture, if this heritage could be promoted in the right way, than the culture could be saved. But for this to happen people should, as Yiannis said, perceive these cultures as a national treasure. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 12:53
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As I told you above the grand-parent of this person is Arvanite who speaks arvanitic and greek (Arvanites are bilingual). Was he able to talk arvanitic with his wife (from Chios) in home? So how could his children learn arvanitic? And how his grandson could've learned Arvanitic? The arvanitic language cannot be preserved ever by one person in a greek speaking family through the centuries, since there are not pure arvanitic societies now. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 05-Jul-2006 at 13:59
When did it exist a pure arvanit society? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 05:23
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Right after the arrival of Arvanites in particular places in Greece. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 18:28
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Basically I do not believe the Arvanite dialekt has died yet...However, calling it Pelasgian is way too much science fiction. It is more close to Albanian. Pelasgians were the natives of the southern balcan penisula waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in time. Every single ancient language in the Balcans has loan words from the Pelasgic language. The Hellenic, the Illyrian, the Etruscan, the Lydian, the Phoenician etc. Herodotus wrote f.ex "It is evident to me that the Hellenes never changed their speech. It was a branch of Pelasgian that separated from the main body" (George Rawlingsons translation). The dialect of Pontus has a lot of words f.ex included in pelasgian inscription found. That doesn't mean though it is Pelasgian after so many thousands years, even though the dialect is the most primitive of the rest dialects. Many words are also connected to the Aramaic...To be exact they are exact copies. How can then so many words be common in so many languages? Because they are loan words. Lately I've read a lot about people trying to give an explanation in pelasgian inscriptions connecting them to their language. Even turks tryed to call the turkish language Pelasgian. Anyway, Arvanitika as we call it, is still preserved in some areas. What I've noticed though, which is sad and sounds strange into my ears is that some people comming from Arvanite villages in Greece refuse to declare themselves as Arvanites even though they can speak arvanitine. They say the language was just a leftover from the Ottoman times. Maybe that's why the text Arber posted says "Why didn't they learn you more? Cause they thought the language was nothing worth". -------------  
SĆ„ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 18:43
At last someone mentions it...Not to forget that the relations of our ancestors weren't bad at all...Alliances against foreign intrusions, mercenaries etc... -------------
SĆ„ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 18:46
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As for the preservation of the language Arber, I think the Roms are a great example of keeping their language global without having it written.
-------------
SĆ„ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 19:58
I agree with everything. (the arvanite still exists, but its a bit in trouble)
That might be very possible, but I believe that the pelasgian had also other branches, which could be the illyrian, the thracian and the dacian.This languages then developed in different ways, and in different regions, but very probably they had the same substratum (pelasgian).
Actually it is not a leftover from ottoman times. Greece has always been a (more) developed country, so albanians in many forms, and in many times emigrated southwards. They went there at least since the XII century,as mercebary warriors, who after serving the lords, were granted some earth for themselves and their families.Some albanians (arvanites) emigrated from greece to italy, as also some greeks did. And the greeks lived together with the albanians also in southern italy. Still today there exists albanian (arberesh) comunity in 50 villages http://www.arbitalia.it - www.arbitalia.it which are near the greek villages. Apparently these people, even though they spoke different languages and had different ethnical backgrounds, shared their churches and felt closer to eachother than to the indigenes (italians) ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 06-Jul-2006 at 20:01
Yes, but thats a different thing. The roms (unfortunately) are marginalised in our societies, and they are not considered greek there, nor albanian here. It is a different thing with the arvanites, they are considered (and actually are) a integrated part of the hellenic nation (consiously). ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: dorian
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 04:30
All the same again... If you say that this guy I told you above with 1/4 of arvanitic origin belongs to the population of Arvanites and he has been intergrated into the greek society, if you mean that someone who has an arvanite ancestor is Arvanite himself without accounting his other ancestors regarding origin and culture, then I'm sorry but I cannot say anything else and you will never understand why the arvanitic is a dying language. If you are trying to find pure arvanitic families, so as to belong to any minority, you will get disappointed. ------------- "We are Macedonians but we are Slav Macedonians.That's who we are!We have no connection to Alexander the Greek and his Macedoniaļæ½Our ancestors came here in the 5th and 6th century" Kiro Gligorov FYROM |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 06:21
No it is not different...Basically you see as Roms people that live in tens in a rez which is a prejudice amonst most of us. I can't talk about the Roms in Albania but in Greece most Roms do live in houses. However people refer to those who lives in tents as Roms. Roms are a race of its own but in some societies they adapt the ethnic consciousnes of the locals. Roms in Greece complain sometimes cause they are not threated equaly when they try to get a job done (job: f.ex legal issues etc). Their main argument is "We are Greeks too" which means they do not to be treated as outsiders or bugs of the community. Exactly the same situation exists in Sweden and Finland. You can't distinguish a swedish rom from a swede that easy. In Finland you do, however both swedish and finnish roms reffer to themselves as Swedish/Suomalainen Roms. Now do you have some information about the different branches of the Pelasgians? Did their language change depending on the people they came in contact with? I'm interested on this matter. Some fanatic ortodox christian groups I've located are trying to deny their existance. They've translated Herodotus and Homer incorrectly in order to prove that the Pelasgians were a myth. According to findings during the 60s and 70s all over Greece, archeologists concluded that the "birthplace" of the Pelasgians was in the Limnos Island. Their name means "Sea people". They did have a primitive alphabet which was a mix of Eboic, Cadmian and the Cretan Linnear B. The letters are fewer compared to the alphabets mentioned which makes their inscription readable in too many different ways. As for Italy and the Arvanites. Do they live in Calabria? -------------
SĆ„ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 07-Jul-2006 at 12:20
???????
I understood that the first time you posted, and I agreed, why did u bother to post it again?Friend, I believe that you prejudice me, and believe that everything I write is opposing you ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 10:57
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Hey, Arber, can you tell me if the toponym 'Koutsomodi' ('Koutsoumad', with a certain accent?) is arvanitic?
The reason why arvanitic is being lost, is exactly the same with the other dialects, be it of greek origin (pontian greek, tsakonian greek), be it of vlachic (latin) origin, be it of albanian. It is the fact that they are not worth anything in the modern society. We have the TV and we lose our accent. Once upon a time, there used to be a cretan dialect. Where is it now? I have co-students in the university from Crete. Well, they speak as atheneans. People feel bad if they talk with weird accent, or with dialect words. They are making fun of us Thessalonikeans, that we use the 'l' very thickly, or that we talk with 'me' and 'se' insyead of the correct 'mou' and 'sou'. And it is alright with us Thessalonikeans, because we are many and proud. But people from the countryside try to change their accent (if that hasn't already happened through the TV). ------------- 
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 16-Jul-2006 at 12:59
Koutsomadi looks like is composed by two parts, koutso (kucho) and Madi(madhi). If it is an arvanitic word it would mean red&big or big&red. But it could derive also from turkish words (like Koutsovlah from kucuk vlah, small vlachia). An arvanite toponym that comes to my mind right now is Kriekouki (village in Attika or peloponesse??) it means redhaired (redheaded). Krye is head and Kuqi (kuchi, kouki) means red. Also Schimatari (alb Sqimatari, the name of this village means exactly welldressed, or proudlydressed).
Regarding what you said about dialects disappearing, I find it sad, because linguistic diferences are part of the culture of a nation. But I guess the globalisation, and the microglobalisations in our countries are assimilating all of us. It seems strange that we are here disscussing about our cultures, in a century we will all be american, drinking coke and eating mcdonalds with french(american)fries. I already smoke Marlboro, so I guess I m on that way.
Anyway, I still think something should be done to prevent this languages from disappearing. In albania we provide instruction in greek language until high school, and you can study hellenic culture in Tirana University -philologic sciences faculty. So I dont believe greek is gonna be lost in albania (fortunately) ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 07:57
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Well, we won't be americans in a century, we will probably be 'europeans', speaking english next to our mother languages (who will still be used, you can't force like 80 million germans to change their language).
Koutsompdi is my grandmother's village. The village used to have two names Linoi- Greek for sure, and Koutsomodi. My grandmother believes it's Greek but to me it sounded more arvanitic. After all it is located close to the arvanitic areas of Peloponese. My grandmother's family wasn't arvanitic though. Probably the village was mixed, my grandmother tells me that some villagers called the village Linoi and some Koutsomodi. -------------
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 17-Jul-2006 at 13:53
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And what does linoi mean? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 12:35
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It is the place where grapes are 'sqeezed' to create this liquid (moustos) which will later become wine. Linoi is plural of linos. The area had always traditionally produced grapes, wine and dried grapes (no idea how they are called in english). Corinthian dried grapes are famous.
The specific village is a perfect example of grape production. In about a month from now the big harvest will begin. I really hope I'll go there this summer, because I haven't gone for like 3 years.  -------------
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Yiannis
Date Posted: 18-Jul-2006 at 15:25
Raisins  and indeed they're famous... ------------- The basis of a democratic state is liberty. Aristotle, Politics Those that can give up essential liberty to obtain a temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 08:03
Very interesting...I didn't know. On the other side you can see that Greeks that moved from Albania to Greece after the form of the state changed, were speaking fluetly (maybe not all ofcourse) which must have something to do with education as well not just talking the language at home. -------------
SĆ„ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 08:14
Actually any albanian citizen of the greek minority is fluent in greek, as also in the communism era they had the right (actually the duty) to be educated in their language. All of them know albanian, but most of them are not very fluent in standard (problems with pronounciation aparently). Regarding those who declare themselves as vorioepeirotes, believe me, not all of them belong to the respected greek community. Some of them are just albanians or vlach from albania who declare themselves as greek to enjoy some benefits (in the greek universities or in work).Thats why some of them are not fluent in greek (but they will become
 albanians learn very well and fastly foreign languages)------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 15:01
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Vlachs are also (considered) Greeks. -------------
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 21-Jul-2006 at 21:01
I was referring to the vlachs of Albania, and believe me, they do not consider themselves greek, the speek vlach in their homes, most of them dont know greek (they all speak albanian very fluently, differently from the hellenes they have no difficulty in pronouncing albanian language), and they consider themselves as primarily related to the romanians. Probably you were talking about the vlachs of greece, but thats another issue I guess. They are cousins but... ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: xristar
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 07:32
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I meant the Vlachs of Albania. I don't know if they considered themselves related to Romanians, but in Greece we include them to 'our' minority.
The Vlachs don't have a single national identity. I know that Romania has tried in the past to create a Romanian national consciousness in the Vlachs, and has succeeded to some part (Italy also helped a lot in WWII, creating a vlachic duchy in Greece!). Most Vlachs of Greece feel Greeks, but not all of them. I don't know about the albanian Vlachs, I don't know what influences they have had. But as I said, in Greece we consider tehm our people. We also consider Greeks the Vlachs of Fyrom and Bulgaria. -------------
Defeat allows no explanation Victory needs none. It insults the dead when you treat life carelessly. |
Posted By: Flipper
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 09:43
In Greece they prefer like the Roms to call themselves Greek. Most of them at least. I have to say they make lovely food hehe. -------------
SĆ„ nu tar jag fram (k)niven va! |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 22-Jul-2006 at 14:06
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Well, if in albania they consider themselves Albanian citizens of Vlach ethnicity, this is their right. And if they say that they are linguistically and ethnically near to the romanians, this is their feeling and it should be respected. What is the point of telling them what they are, and who they are near to?I could say they are albanian, and they have indeed many elements of albanian culture in their language as well as in their folk, but I leave them decide which culture they belong. Anyway, this thread is about the arvanite language. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 01-Aug-2006 at 22:41
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The interesting thing about the Arvanities is also their village structure. Between the more advanced Christian people the tendency was to have a town centered around a main church, which could also be fortified. The Arvaniti seemed to have taken straight out of the much less organized Albanian method. In our traditional villages there is no real center of administration all are clumped.
Another interesting thing I noticed is that many of their names have not translated into Greek. For instance take the last name Kolias. It comes from the Albanian name for Nicholas, Shen(Saint) Kol, Nasos(Nasho) from Athananos, Lekkas(Leka) from Alexsandros, Dhimas(original Alb is Dhima) from Dimistris, Tsolias(Tsoli) from Apostolos, Tilis from Sotiros. Funny is that these very older versions are getting replaced even in modern Albanian. For instance people dont use Leka anymore but Alexander and Tili has been replaced with the more accurate Sotir and Nasos with Athanas. In southern Albanian region of Himare you could find these names among the other. Arvanities(Arbanitas) started making their first entrace into the Greek populated part of the Balkans are the 12th century they started entering the regions of Epirus. By the 13th various tribes had started populating in the mountains in Macedonia(tribes named: Malakasians  , LOL , Buians and Mesarites)Emperor John VI Cantacuzene wrote about the accounts of the skirmishes against them. By around that time too in Epirus the Comnenos dynasty made a pact with them in the formation of the Despotate of Epirus. By the 14 and 15 century they were welcomed into Attica and the Pelopenese by the emperor of the last dynasty as a defensive manuever against Turkish raids in the area and to counter the depopulation in the region. Many of the forces went under the service of the venetians and eventually left Mani for southern Italy, a significant others stayed. In George Sphritzanes history you can get a pretty good picture of the general bias and dissatisfaction the natives had with the people there considering them to be "... the base and most useless race..."(Sphratzes)
Around this late period these is small change in the general populations occupancy. Whereas the settled civilized Greeks were settled and well to do farmers, these men were mostly shepherds. It does not constitute as a displacement, not at all(just to make sure some people don't think Im hinting at that). Most of these Albanians were indeed recruited in the south Albania in mixture, parts were Greeks part were Albanians. According to the Mnemeia Hellenikes Historias: Documents inedits a l'histoire de la Grece au Moyen Age, edited by Konstantinos Sathas, the vast majority of these stradioti were infact Albanians. Many came from the region of Himare and moved on afterwards to south Italy(the Arberesh settlement Piana Degli Albanese in Sicily was founded by settlers from this region). I have seen some Arvanities and they look very much like Greeks. But considering they have been there for about 600 years its not surprise. They are also heavily influenced by 400 years of Ottoman millet, a close attachment to the Greek culture due to the link to religion. So its no surprise. I have to say however that the ideas that they were infact already of Greek origin is very doubtful and most likely led on by modern social relations between the two nations. Another interesting factor of the Arvanities is that the long use of the Greek alphabet has morphed the speech itself. The Greek alphabet lacks the proper letters to form all the various sounds in the Albanian language. But considering the tie to Orthodoxy, it was the only path so the language itself changed itself to fit the language... This is for Arber, you can see the difference: 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanitic_language - Wikipedia has a very good article. http://www.ling.ohio-state.edu/~bjoseph/publications/1999comp.pdf - The Ohio university also has a good article on this... ------------- |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 02-Aug-2006 at 07:50
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Actually Teddy I have read that article from OhioUn before, and it gave me this idea.
About the malakasians, they were from region of Mallakaster in albania, where today live the Mallakastriotes. Mallakaster - Malum - Castro - BadCastle.
As about the arvanites, it is true, they emigrated southwards (to greece) between the XI and the XVI century. Even in the christian formula that you provide, there is a striking similarity between arvanitika (arberisht) and certain variants of today's Tosk in southern albania. But what makes me curious are some similarities between arvanitika and Gheg, which is the northern dialect. Apparently there were also Gheg albanians emigrating to greece in those years, or very probably, the difference between tosk and gheg was smoother. In the first printed book in albanian (Meshari from Gjon Buzuku), I saw similarities with tosk too, even though the book is in mediaeval gheg. Probably the gheg and the tosk were not differing much, actually I believe that they started deepening the gap only during the ottoman ocupation. In albania, after some revolts against the occupators, the land was divided in smaller regions, which people were not allowed to interact freely. The same happened with the arvanites, who were isolated from the rest of the albanianspeaking communities, and developed their own dialect. It is very interesting, and I do believe that their language and culture should be studied and documentated carefully in details. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: Konstantis
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 16:40
Some historians have argued that the Malakasians were not Albanians but nomadic vlachs of Albania.I don't know however the evidence on which they base this claim.
The relations between the Arvanites and the Despotate of Epirus were not really good.One of the Despots of Epirus had killed so many Albanians that acquired for himself the nickname Arvanitoktonos(albanian-killer).Later they were invited by the catalans of Athens to settle in Attica and by the Despot of Moreas to settle the region of Pelopponesos.
Today they are an integral part of the modern Greek nation.They are "pure" modern Greeks.
As far as their appearance is concerned,I can say from my experience that some ,very few, have blond hair but in a scandinavian way,(we have blond people in Greece but not so blond).But most of them look like the rest of us,dark-haired.
Many Albanian that i have seen here in Greece are also dark-haired and dark-skinned.
------------- "Stranger, tell the Lakedemonians that here we lie dead obeying their orders." Tombstone on the tomb of the 300 Spartans |
Posted By: Theodore Felix
Date Posted: 03-Aug-2006 at 19:17
I never heard of that Cantacuzene specifically says they were ALbanian. Here is a quote from his account:
[/quote]The relations between the Arvanites and the Despotate of Epirus were not really good.One of the Despots of Epirus had killed so many Albanians that acquired for himself the nickname Arvanitoktonos(albanian-killer).[/quote] The relations between the two deteriorated due to the shifty attitude of the Arvanites. By the end the constant Alb raids were the very reason for the eventual fall of the Despotate.
lol, they must probably have come with some slavic blood. There are many Albanians around the Prespa in the eastern border between FYROM and Greece that look like that. That was a region once very populated with slavs. ------------- |
Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 09:46
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Blond, and red hair are common phenotypes in albania, specially in the rural areas or in the highlands, which, as it is historically known, were less affected by invasions and occupations. Dark haired people are originally from the cities, the urban areas and from the lowlands. Is the same about the arvanites. Searching the google I found this arvanite language called kriekouki - which means redhaired (alb kryekuqi/kryekuchi). The traditional culture of the arvanites is very similar to the albanians (note, I m not talking about the modern urban culture in Greece, which is not even greek traditional, but western). The arvanites clothe the same as the albanians, they use the fustanellas with 400 or more pieces, they use the white, the red, the black and the gold in their suits, the same as albanians (as Lord Byron noticed in Childe Harold). The arvanites do care (traditionally) about their looks, the moustache, the hair etc, same as the traditional albanians. They practiced the same social rules as the albanians, they had vendetta etc. By the way, who was this arvanitokthone? ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 10:56
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Arber you continue to say that Arvanites were Albanians, now you mention that modern Greek culture is not Greek and you continue your delirium with the dress. So please stay in the topic and live out your albanianism. Kriekouki(also called a place near in Athens) is the name of the Arvaniti that died in the the conquest(from the Venetians) of Nicosia in Cyprus at the 1571 . Arvanites fought also there against the Turks, in the side of the Venetians.
Amongst the many names of his comrades, he mentions Kriekouki, Liopesi, Schimatari, Mazi, Rampntosa, Kokla. All of these names are nowadays names of villages. There are two versions: Either the Venetians had given earlier these villages to these warriors, or they came from these villages. By both versions we know that Kriekouki must have been inhabited by Arvanites before 1571. The meaning of the word Kriekouki is red-headed or red-haired as you said.
Where you find that Kriekouki called the Arvanitic language? -------------
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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 11:16
I am saying that the traditional culture of the arvanites is albanian, or a branch of albanian traditional culture. And I never said that the modern greek culture is not greek, but with apparently the delirium is subject of someone else. Read my post, and quote it, I said that the modern urban culture is not traditional greek , friends here mentioned that many dialects of greek are dissapearing, the costumes are also fading, and the traditional dresses, you can see them only in the expos. Also the everyday life in Athens, it looks like the everyday in Rome or in Madrid, or in Istambul, New York London etc. The traditional is dying my lovely, openminded and polite greek mate, I would never dare to say that a concept (like culture) which stays in the same phrase with the word "greek" is not greek. All the world knows the reality, whatever is connected with greek has to be, and indeed is hellene.
Kriekouki(also called a place near in Athens) is the name of the Arvaniti that died in the the conquest(from the Venetians) of Nicosia in Cyprus at the 1571 . Arvanites fought also there against the Turks, in the side of the Venetians.
I am talking exactly about that place, and btw if you want to use english the plural of arvanite is arvanites, not arvaniti *latin would be like that
Amongst the many names of his comrades, he mentions Kriekouki, Liopesi, Schimatari, Mazi, Rampntosa, Kokla. All of these names are nowadays names of villages.
enough strangely, all this words have an exact meaning in albanian, but no, there is no chance that they could be albanian
There are two versions: Either the Venetians had given earlier these villages to these warriors, or they came from these villages. By both versions we know that Kriekouki must have been inhabited by Arvanites before 1571. The meaning of the word Kriekouki is red-headed or red-haired as you said.
Thank you for accepting the truth in my words
Where you find that Kriekouki called the Arvanitic language?
Can I have an english translation of the above sentence?
Please do not accuse me of delirium, or whatsoever. I have never offended personally you, or your nation and your culture. Moderate yourself. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 11:49
That arvanites speak a albanian dialect nobody denies that.The problem is the origin.
Where you find it?? -------------
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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 12:06
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Now we are starting to discuss, I see, but you should apologize for the delirium!
We do not have the asme culture dear, and I dont have the same culture with my albanian friend in the next seat. The arvanites have a culture which belongs to the broader albanian culture. I have ever met arvanites, in greece. And not only one. But I admitt it, I have not met all of them. And yes, I have also read about their culture, is that prohibited? Try to make a little research, and you will see that this strange relation between arvanites and albanians is not mentioned just somewhere in the "albanian nationalistic" forums and websites.
That arvanites speak a albanian dialect nobody denies that.The problem is the origin.
What is the problems with their origin? Read the posts of Theodore Felix, make your own research and come with your own contribution. If they spoke an albanian dialect till now, that means something doesnt it?
Searching the google I found this arvanite language called kriekouki - which means redhaired (alb kryekuqi/kryekuchi).
Where you find it??
Ok, I meant that in google I found this arvanite village called kriekouki - which means redhaired in albanian ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 12:40
I apologize when I doing I mistake.In this case I don't see any reason to apologize in your "polite" delirioum and tinge of irony DEAR
http://www.arvasynel.gr/endimasia.html - http://www.arvasynel.gr/endimasia.html
Why the Arvantikos syllogos mention Arvanitic culture and not Albanian?
Can you show me related Albanian sites in order to compare with the Arbanitic page? Dear
Now understand your perfect English dear -------------
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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 04-Aug-2006 at 20:08
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I apologize when I doing I mistake.In this case I don't see any reason to apologize in your "polite" delirioum and tinge of irony DEAR
the words in bold letters above are completely mistaken.
Why the Arvantikos syllogos mention Arvanitic culture and not Albanian?
Can you show me related Albanian sites in order to compare with the Arbanitic page? Dear
Learn some arvanitic first, then try to learn some albanian. You already know greek (I suppose), so I guess that you can compare yourself and come to the results you need about the origin or the belonging of the language
Now understand your perfect English dear
My english might not be perfect, and you can probably find errata in my posts, but at least I use pronouns, and I do know when to use the word "dear". I do not want to discuss personal things with you, actually you made yourself clear perfectly. If you have something to discuss on the topic then I ll answer, if not, go on, I thought you were a bit older and you knew how to behave. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |
Posted By: akritas
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 04:00
Yes proffessor.Can I have a chance to the next semester please ?
You spoke for common culture between Arvaniton and Albanians and you diverse it in the language again.I say again that the Arvantic dialect belong to the Albanian.I hope this cover up your albanianism.
Still waiting to show me the common links!!!
Remind you the official Arvantic page not state any connection with the Albanian culture.
http://www.arvasynel.gr/endimasia.html - http://www.arvasynel.gr/endimasia.html
If you don't have links or argyments just remain in the topic (you opened it) that consern the Arvanitic language and not the migration or the culture of them.
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Posted By: Arbėr Z
Date Posted: 05-Aug-2006 at 11:32
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Akritas, finally you made a joke, and I admit that I like that, it shows that things calmed down in our disscussion. I dont' want to have a flamewar on any issue, and I am sure that you agree with me on this point. Now, the language is an important part of a culture, a very important part. Before I was talking about the dresses, but you said that was a delirium. Theodore Felix also posted some interesting facts about the organization of the arvanite villages, which are very similar to the albanian villages in their urbanistic shape, less developed than the greek-hellene traditional villages (cause you see, I admit that the hellenes were traditionally more developed culturally, thats why I admire their culture). And you can see in the link posted by Theodore Felix some data from the university of Ohio. I do not want to provide albanian links, as in this case they would not be appropriate, same as the greek links. You see, we have been disscussing also other parts of the culture, but remember, we are on the linguistic forum. Anyway, think about it, language is an important part of the culture, if not the most important part of ethnic culture and tradition. If the greek language would have been loosed during the centuries, now you probably would call yourself romio, and in the debates with the FYROMIANS, as you sometimes call them, you would feel a bit weaker. But thank god, the greek language still exists and is flourishing, as an incontestable proof for the continuous hellenic culture in that area of the balkans. ------------- Prej heshtjes...! |