The Dravidian Problem

1. Introduction: the ethnic interpretation and connotation of Caldwell’s linguistic ‘Dravidian’ has led to the racial hypotheses and theories of ‘Dravidians’. Though the concepts of race and language are two separate entities, the “Dravidians’ are still held only in the racial esteem against the so called “Aryans”, in all religious, social and political interactions and processes, even today.

2. ‘Dravidians’ and Tamil literature: For the purpose of this paper, the forms of Dravid, viz., Dravida, Dravidi, Dravidam, Damila, Dramila, Dravida, dravida and their derivatives are considered. But, surprisingly, none of these words is found in the ‘sangam literature’, generally represented by Pattuppattu, ettuttogai and Padinkizhkanakku.

 “Nama thipa nikhandu”⁴, a Tamil lexicon assigned to7, 8 or 11^th century mentions ‘dravidam’ as one of the words used for Tamil. “Senthan Divakaram”, another Tamil lexicon of 9^th century mentions that ‘Dravidam’ as one of the eighteen languages spoken. A later work “Kanthanthu Upadesa Kandam” mentions that Lord Shiva revealed to Agastya the grammar of proud language ‘Dravidam’. The authors of “Prayoga Vivegam”  explain that the Sanskrit word “Tramilam” had been changed to “Tamil”, but the modern (Dravidian) scholars refute this strongly and assert that only the word ‘Tamil’ had been pronounced and used as ‘Dravida’ by the Sanskrit scholars. Sivagnana Yogi also mentions that Sanskrit scholars used the word “Dravidam” symbolically to denote “Ten mozhi” (the language of south), that is Tamil⁵. Therefore, it is very clear that Tamils were not only unfamiliar with the usage of the word ‘Dravida’, but also started to denote it for their language only in the modern period, particularly about the advent of the European scholars in south.

3. ‘Tamil’ in Tamil literature: there is a well known interpretation that ‘Dravida’ is derived from ‘Tamil’. The word ‘Tamil’ is of course found in the “Sangam’ literature at many places. Therem, it is used to denote – 1. Tamil language, 2. Tamil army and 3. Tamil country⁶. The usage of the word ‘Tamil’ is on the increase with the passage of time in the Tamil literature, as is observed from the frequency of its occurrence as follows (see TABLE-A). In Tolkappiyam, it appears five times and in ‘Sangam’ literature 21 times. In the literature of the period 200-500 CE, it is used 45 times, 500-900 CE - 475 times, 900-1200 CE - 381 times and 1200-1900 CE -  341 times⁷. Therefore, when the Tamils know very well about the name of their language and its usage, they need not have derived it from Sanskrit ‘Dravida’ and used such a non-Tamil word to name their ancient language. Moreover, they have been using the word ‘Tamil’ from ‘Sangam’ period to modern times, to denote their ancient language as proper and abstract nouns, but in any case, it has never been used in their racial connotation.

4. ‘Ariyar” in the Tamil literature: ‘Ariyar’ have been mentioned several times in the Tamil literature and dexrfibed sufficiently to know them⁸. Therefore, an important question arises, “When there were Aruyar, why not Dravidar available at that time?”. The answer is that the Tamils never considered ‘Ariyar’ as outsiders and ‘Dravidar’ themselves. Originally, ‘Ariyar’ or ‘Aryans’ were created by Maxmueller from the Vedic literature, but ‘Dravidians’ from the comparative grammar of the “Dravidian languages”. The anthropologists succeeded in comparing the descriptive physical features of Dasas, Dasyus and Panis, like, Anas, Mridhavachah etc., with their anthropometry. But, ‘Aryans’ were not compared with the description given in the Tamil literature to verify the anthropometric parameters like Cranial index, Nasal index, Stature etc.

6. “Anthropometry” of the ancient Tamils: the Tamil poets have too meticulously described about head, eyes, hair, lips, ears, eyelids, hands, legs and body structure of the ancient Tamils at many places, but they never painted them with ‘black’ as has been done by the above ‘racist’ scholars. Indeed they have used different terminology for each characteristic e.g, uchi, talai, siram for head; kudimi, mayir, kundal, mudi, ori, alagam, ulai for hair; adi, siradi, sivanta adi, kal for feet; meni, uruvam, udal, agam, sariram, uru for body; euiru, muruval, pal for teeth; nodal, netri for forehead; kavul, tadai, movai for jaw; kannidazh, imai for eyelids; idazh, adaram, udadu for lips, these words are used with

e.g, Asiriyar Perungannan (the teacher with big eyes), Perungannan (a man with bigger eyes), Ilangannan (a man with youthful eyes), Sengannan (a man with reddish eyes), Nettimaiyar (a man with lengthy eye brows), Naraimudi nettiyar (a man with white hair and high stature), Irumbidattalaiyar (black colour haired headed man or a man with a strong head like a iron), Sittalai sattanar ( Sattanar with puss-head), Peruntalaiyar (a man with bigger head), Pullatru eyitranar), Kazharkkiran eyitranar (men with characteristic teeth). The ancient Tamil literature clearly mentions that the skin colour of the ancient Tamils were that of the ‘tender mango leaves’ (mamai). The kings had the colour that of Sun. The heroines have been described that they had bright colours body like ‘unsheathed sword’ with reddish hand and feet⁹. Interestingly, Kalittogai stresses that women should have big mons venris, shoulders and eyes and small forehead waist and feet, as such parameters were considered as good characteristics i.e, morphology. Recently, a gold ring dated to

6.1. Here the important point should be noticed is that though the Indologists have compared and correlated the physical feature described in the Vedas with their ‘Dravidians’, they have not applied the same methodology in comparing and correlating the morphological features of the ‘ancient Tamils’ from ‘Sangam literature’ with the modern antropometric indices. In any case, we do not come across ‘Dravidians’ with black skin, snubbed nosed (anas), impaired speech (mrdhavacah) and other ‘Vedic’ descriptions in Tamil literature.

7. Inconsistent race theories: When going through the classification of the races according to different scholars, we are surprised to know how the races and sub-races increase and overlap. According to Linnaeus (1735) there were four races – European, Asiatic, African and American; and according to Blumenback (1781), five – Caucasians, Mongolian, Ethiopian, American and Malay. Huxley recognizes five principal and fourteen secondary races.

cymotrichi, leuchoderms, xanthoderms and so on.And in the case of ‘Dravidians’, too, we have Homo-Dravidians, Proto-Dravidians, Pre-Dravidians, Mongol-Dravidians, Scytho-Dravidians and of course Arya-Dravidians (!) and so on. But, significantly, the ancient Tamils never described and grouped themselves so. But, forgetting all facts, ‘Dravidians’ are viewed characteristically with all exceptions and a great deal of overlapping, as a separate race.

7.1. Divergent theories about the origin of Dravidians: About the origins of ‘Dravidians’, Keans, Morries, Sclater, Turner, Ragozin, Caldwell, Perry, Smith, Hornell and Indian scholars including Kanakasabhai have propounded many interesting, but divergent hypotheses and theories based on mythology, philology, anthropometry, and other factors¹⁰. They can be broadly grouped and explained as follows:

Central Asian Origins: From the comparisons of morphological and some linguistic similarities, some scholars considered that Dravidians cam from Central Asia. Caldwell delved much on the ‘Scythian’ origins. Here, they coolly forgot the other famous hypotheses / theories that ‘Aryans’ also came from Central Asia. It is really surprising the if both “Aryans’ and ‘Dravidians’ come from ‘Central Asia’, then why they should have been pitted against each other for all Indian historical processes?

West Asian Origins: As the west Asia had several ancient civilizations, it was argued that ‘Dravidians’ must have been originated from one of such civilizations by intermixing or interbreeding.

Diffusion theory: Tracing all civilizations to an Egyptian and Mediterranean source, it was argued that ‘Dravidians’ were a branch of Mediterranean race evolved consequent to miscegenation of Mediterranean and West Asian elements.

North-Indian and Trans-Himalayan Origins: Before, the advent of ‘Aryans’, ‘Dravidians’ were living in the north including north-eastern ad western parts of India. When the ‘Aryans’ started occupying, the Dravidians had to spread towards south. The Trans-Himalyan origins locate ‘Dravidians’ beyond Himayalas like Tbert, from where they entered India from the north east. Here, how the ‘Aryan’ factor has also been taken into consideration to explain the advent of ‘Dravidians’ in India, can easily be noticed. Interestingly, however, no scholar has ever propounded the ‘Dravidian invasion’ hypothesis or theory so far.

Lemurian or Kumari continent Origins: To counter the above ‘out of India’ or ‘foreign’ origins, it was argued that ‘Dravidians’ came from the submerged ‘Kumari’ or ‘Lemuria’ continent.

7.2. Of the above, the first three origins heavily depend on Semitic religious literature and the last two on the references mentioned in the “Sangam” literature about the submergence of land masses. But where in the ancient Tamil literature, it is mentioned that they can be from outside the boundaries of Himalayas in the north, Kumari in the south, eastern ocean (Kuna kadal) in the east and Western ocean (Kuda kadal) in the west.

8. Contradictions of Anthropometry: The anthropologists turned ‘race science’ with their craniometers, spheroidal hooks and other instruments have tried to create ‘Dravidians’ out of ‘Aryans’ with their inconsistent, divergent measurements of morphometry and craniometry. They have completely ignored the hereditary and environmental factors like climate, diet, occupation, genes, combination of chromosomes etc., in their ‘scientific’ study. Now, it has been proven on research work that stature increases with urban life, occupation and of course changes with hereditary. Children differ from parents. Dolicocephalic parents produce brachycephalic children and in turn, such brachycephalics produce mesocephalics. Thus, physical changes occur in all groups under consideration and their extent increases with every child.

8.2. Brahmans are always considered ‘Aryans’ in the ‘Dravidian’, context . But, surprisingly such Brahmans themselves do not oblige anthropologists to fit into ‘Aryan anthropometry’ showing variations. Among 20 dolicocephalic Brahmans, we find one brachycephalic, Pattar Brahmans 2/25; Desastha 4/24; Madhvas – 18 brachycephalics out of 60 mesocephalics; Karnataka Smartha – 9 brachy out of 50 meso; Mandya – 31 brachy out of 50 meso; shivalli – 17 brachy out of 30 meso. Similarly stature and nasal indeces given by him for respective groups do vary considerably. Thus, we find more ‘Aryans’ among ‘Dravidians’ and more ‘Dravidians’ among ‘Aryans’. At one stage, the demarcation between ‘Aryans’ and ‘dravidians’ ceases. Therefore, it is very clear that these studies are far from the scientific nature.

9. Origin of Linguistic ‘Dravidian’ and ‘Dravidian race’: When those ‘race scientists’ were making attempts to invent ‘Dravidians’, linguistics were also busy in the same process, but trying to approach differently. Thus, Francis W. Ellis, while comparing the languages Tamil, Kannada, Malayalam and others used the expression ‘South Indian dialects’. A. D. Campbell in his ‘A Grammar of Telugu language’ (1816) named them as ‘The dialects of South India’. Lassen grouped the South Indian languages under the terminology ‘Dekhan language’. Hackson through his studies carried out in 1848 and 1856 in the Nilgiris and surrounding places, termed the languages spoken by the people of those areas as ‘Tamulian’. For the first time Caldwell called them “Dravidian languages”. T. Burrow and M. B. Emeneau, Kamil V. Zvelebil, M. Anthropov and other modern scholars skillfully used their linguistic studies to confirm the “Dravidian race”. They have given more emphasis to the ‘Dravidian race’ than to the linguistic research, as is evident from their works.

10. Dravida – Sanskrit sources: According to Manu¹²

‘Dravidas’ were the degraded Kshtriyas and said to be the descendants of Dravida, son of Vrishaba. In the two lists of degraded Kshtriyas given in Mahabharat, Dravida are the only South Indian group mentioned. Bhagavata Purana mentions Satyavrata as the ‘Lord of Dravida’, i.e., King of Dravida, Kanchi. In Saundharya Lahiri, a work assigned to Adi Sankara, the 75^th verse mentions about ‘Dravida sisu’. Chanakya, the great minister of Chandragupta Maurya was mentioned as a native of Dravida i.e., Kanchi. Indeed, he had several names viz., Vatyayana, Mallanga, Kutila, Dramila, Paksilasvami, Vishnugupta and Angula, of which, we see ‘Dramila’ as one of them. Kumarila Bhatta of the 7^th century uses the expression ‘Andhra Dravida Bhasa’. A Dramidacharya¹³ has been  referred to in Visistadvaita literature (c.7^th cent). Varahamihira’s Brahat Samhita and Yoga Yatra, Varahapurana,  Varahitantra and Mahabharat collectively call the following people as ‘Dravidas’, viz., the Andhras, Karnatakas, Gurjars, Tailingas and Maharastras. Indeed they were also collectively known as ‘Pancha Dravidas’ in contrast to ‘Pancha Gaudas’, butto represent Brahmans of India.

The Brahmans of north of Vindhyas were called ‘Pancha Gaudas’, and they are –

1. Sarasvasthas of Kashmir,

2. Kanyakubjas of Punjab,

3. Mukya Gaudas of Bengal,

4. Utkalas of Orissa and

5. Maithilas (with ‘Misra’ title) of Nepal and Bihar.

Markandeya, Garuda, Vishnu-Darmottara Haha Puranas and Brihat samhita locate ‘Dravidas’ along with the Kambojas, Strimukhas and Anarttas in the south-west of Bharat. Dasakumara Charitra¹⁴ also mentions that there was a country named ‘Dravida’ and Kanchi, a city was sityated in it. Kadambari¹⁵ calls as inhabitant or native of that country as ‘Dravida’. A sage is known as ‘Dravida-gaudaka’ and a Upanishad ‘Davidoupanishad’. Bharata refers to ‘Dravida’ in his Natyasastra and Bana mentions about a ‘Dramida marga’. In the rhapsodies of Bilhana ‘Vikramaditya’s digvijata’, the Chola army has been refered to as ‘Dravida army’ and Chola king as the ‘Dravida Lord’. According to Muir and Caldwell, as lare as in 1854, the learned Hindu philologist Babu rajendra Lal Misra spoke of ‘Dravidi’ as one of the recognized Prakrits, equally with the Sauraseni.

11. Dramila and Dravida – Jain accounts: Jaoin works Samvanga Sutra (c.300 BCE) and Pannavanna Sutta (c.168 BCE) mention about the prevalence of eighteen varieties of scripts I the country in the early times and ‘Damili’ was one of them. To propagate Jainism in Tamilnadu, the Digambara Jaina teacher Vajrananti established a ‘Dravida Sangha’ (in 470 CE) at Madurai. In the Saturngaya Purana, Chap. VII (400 vv) assigned to 421 or 605 CE, it is mentioned “Dravida-valikhilla-charitratrithoddhavara”, referring to a ‘Dravida’, the son of Vrisbhasvamin, a Jain¹⁶. ‘Damila’ has been mentioned in Hemachandra’s Sthaviravali Charitra, but according to Fleet, Dramila was the Dravida country of the Pallavas on the east-coast, and Kanchi was its Capital.

12. Damila – Buddhist accounts: Pali chronicle gives detailed accounts of ‘Damila’. The Buddhist work Lalitavistara, a work in Sanskrit (c. 2 cent. CE) refers to 64 scripts used at the time of uddha and they included ‘Dravidi lipi’. A Vinaya commentary called ‘Vimativinodani’ was written by Kssapa Thera, who was in inhabitant of the kingdom of ‘Damila’. A careful study of the Buddhist texts shoes that ‘Damilas’ were fighting people always engaged in constant strifes with Sinhalese in Lanka. It is interesting to note that they are described as ‘Anarya’, the Ceylon chronicles, Mahavamsa and Dipavamsa give more details about ‘Damilas’ on several occasions. At the same time, it does not clearly say as to who were Damilas or from which part of India, they came over toi Ceylon, but to distinguishes between Pandya and Chola divisions of the Tamil country. In Dipavamsa,’Dramilas’ have been mentioned eight times¹⁷. The commentators of Buddhgosa distinguish the ‘Damilas’ from Yavanas and Kiratas on the one hand and from the Andhras on the other. The Chinese monk Yuan Chwang who visited the Tamil country in 637 CE mentions in his report that Kanchi (Kan-chih-pulo) was the capital of ‘Dravida’ (To-lo-pi-la) country. Peutinger table gives that he used Timila, Timir, Cimbo for ‘Dravida country’. Parakrama Bahu I (1153-86 CE) had the able services of a Tamil general known as “Damiladhikarin’ Rakka.

13. Dravida, Dramila and Damila in Inscriptions: An epigraphic study of inscriptions and copper plates of Southern India from ancient times to 18^th century reveal an interesting fact that the words Dravida, Dramila, Dravida of Sanskrit, Dravida, Dramida, damila of Prakrit and their forms and variations in other South Indian languages including Tamil denote only Tamil language “Tamil” and they are used as nouns and adjectives. At several places, Dravidas or Damilas have been distinguished from other South  Indian Kings Cheras, Cholas, Pandyas, Andhras and others. Among the traditional 56 kings and kingdoms, ‘Dravida’ was always one of them, as mentioned in the inscriptions and copper plates. Therefore, even in their linguistic approach, the South Indian epigraphs have not clubbed Kalingas, Andhras, Karnatakas, Keralas and others with ‘Dravidas’ or ‘Damilas’ and also not grouped the Tamilians – Cheras, Cholas and Pandyas under the category. Hence, it is very evident that the term ‘Dravida’ or ‘Damila’ was restricted to the Tamil language and Tamils but no racial connotation was attributed to it.

14. Dravidians of Modern scholars: From the above, we can how the ‘Dravidians’ created out of the words Dravida, Dravida, Damila, Dramila and Damila do not tally with the anthropometry and anthropological data. But, in spite of this, there is much rhetoric about ‘Dravidian race’, ‘Dravidian blood’, ‘Dravidian skull’, ‘Dravidian bones’ and so on. About their origins also, it has already been shown how the ‘Dravidian’ protagonists propose and propound the theories that they came from Egypt, Central Asia, Mediterranean, Tibet and so on, ignoring tradition, heritage, culture and civilization of the ancient Tamils. From the geographical description of ancient Tamilagam, five fold division of land and people, names of rivers, mountains, kings, cities and kingdoms, well defined boundaries and socio-cultural norms followed that they did not come from outside or even outside the boundaries enumerated. In fact, there has not been a single instance mentioned in the ancient Tamil literature that Tamils had come from outside of India, north or some other place. Though, Ganges and Yauna have been mentioned, the river Sindhu has not been mentioned. Similarly, Patali (putra) and Ayodhya have been mentioned, but not the cities of Indus valley civilization. This directly proves that the Tamils belonged to Tamilagam, which was part and parcel of Bharat and also they were not driven away to the end of the Bharat by the so called ‘Aryans’. Indeed, in ‘Sangam’ literature, it was never mentioned that they were defeated by ‘Aryans’ or driven away to the southern end by them, instead, they are many references, which describe how the kings of north were defeated by the Tamil kings and royal symbols of them were inscribed on the Himalayas.

But, unfortunately, the propounders of “Dravidian race” hypotheses and theories had not repented and confessed about their “invention”, during their life-time. Therefore, they have to resurrect from their graves and confess, “We have declared again and again that if I say Dravidian, we mean neither blood nor bones,, nor hair, nor skull, we mean simply those who speak a Dravidiyan language……………To us an ethnologist who speaks of Dravidian race, Dravidian blood, Dravidian eyes and hair, as great sinner as a linguist who speaks of a dolicocephalic dictionary or brachycephalic grammar”. But, now-a-days not only politicians but also historians talk and write about such contradictions and concoctions. The westerners’ wrong understanding or the ill-motivated study of the word ‘Aryan’ resulted in the world wars with the genocide of a particular (assumed) race. When they realized the danger of the ‘Aryan’ and other racial myths, they consigned these theories to dustbins.

15.1. Caldwell’s linguistic invention was given a racial twist by the western and Indian scholars with vested interests. Thus has resulted in the present day Dravidian movements characterized by contempt and hatred for a particular community. The word ‘Dravidian’ was specifically coined on a hypothetical basis to create a race superior to the Aryan race. It was not confusion about the nature of races and their cultures (languages), but a planned conspiracy by the British and their priest-turned historians and other Indologists with political motive to divide Indians. Now, we see that the Indian politicians too adapt and adopt the same methodology to achieve their goals. Those who speak about Aryans and Dravidians should keep in mind one important fact. These people always quote Sanskrit scriptures or non-Dravidian literature to prove the existence of a pre-Aryan Dravidian race in India. But, there is not a single reference in their so called ‘Dravidian literature’ to this effect. Even they did not call themselves by that name, which was invented later, is vouchsafed by their own literature.

15.2. Race and language are two separate entities. Just because a section of people speaks a particular language, it cannot become a distinguishable race. Among the so called ‘Dravidians’, we find tall white dolicocephalics, short dark brachycephalics, intermediate types, half-breeds and a few blonds. So, anthropologically also, a Dravidian cannot be described specifically by stature, nasal index, cranial index, characters. Traits and aptitudes, as they differ in culture and morphology at different places. If the ‘Aryan’ race theory is a myth, as has been accepted by world scholars, the theory of the ‘Dravidian race’ is the greatest myth and this has to e accepted by the Indian scholars in the interest of Indian society, nation and national integration in the historical perspective.

Notes and References

1. Robert Caldwell, A Comparative Grammar of the Dravidian or South-Indian Family of Languages, University of Madras, 1976, pp. 108-120, 636.
2. Tevaram of Tirugnana Sambandar, 6^th Tirumarai, 23^rd Padigam, Tirumaraikkadu-6479.
   In another place, he says, “Aryan with chaste Tamil” – 46^th Padigam, Tirumarakkadu-6710.
   Here, both ‘Aryan’ and ‘Tamizhan’ refer to God Shiva.
3. Siddharkanam.
4. Sivasubramanya Kavirayar, NamaThipa Nikandu, Thanjavur University, 1985.
5. Sabapathy Navalar, Dravida Prakasikai, Madras, 1899, p.7.
6. Purananuru 50: 9-10; 58: 12-13; Sirupanatruppadai: 66-67; Paripadal 6:60.

edit:  tried to correct the format of this post - it's a bit better, but far from perfect.

It is a very comprehensively researched paper.I'm sure there would be positive discussion in this thread.

I agree that ethnicities of North and South India are ethnicities not races.As Maju pointed out earlier on this forum,both-North Indian "Aryans" and South Indian "Dravidians" fall under the "Caucasoid" race or something like that.

As I said a few months back,people of my ethnicity live in North India.My father's ancestors moved to North India from Bengal and mother's from Karnataka,to the best of my knowledge.Any Indian with some knowledge about his ancestors would accept that his family has moved from one part of India to another [whatever the distance may be] at one point of time or the other.

As such the distinction between North and South India is a geographical one or more precisely a linguistic one,not a racial one.

PS:I can't see any smileys in the opening post.Mr.Rao  please try and get rid of the Korean characters in the post  using the edit button.

No, it's not from what I know. You might be referring to the Kisivild paper from 2003, but there's some things odd about that paper. A more recent paper by Cordeaux suggests the opposite. It's all to do with how each population is sampled. Kisivild claims it is 50,000 years old in the subcontinent and Cordeaux claims it's 3,500 years old. Better still look at the trail of R1a1. It's high in Pakistan, in some North Indian states, Afghanistan and then where? There's a gap till Russia and the other Eastern European states. The biggest concentration of it is in these Eastern European states, Ukraine is ideal, since it's radiated out in all directions. 

http://scienceweek.com/2004/sb040430-5.htm - http://scienceweek.com/2004/sb040430-5.htm  

Sure, but more than just one paper. Diversities comparing R1a1 from different regions would also be good.  

• Archaeological: the region shows a pre-IE continuity until Serednij-Stog II culture (c. 3500). Their migrations into Northern Europe precede those of IEs and are clearly different in many senses.
  
• Genetic: Ukraine and other regions arount the Black Sea are stronger in I haplogroup. This haplogroup may well be the dominant among Paleolithic peoples of Ukraine and their neolithic descendants. Their distribution into Northern Europe follows reasonably the patterns expected by the pre-IE migrations of "Ukranian" aborigins and the subsequent distribution inside the IE migrations that followed. Instead R1a is stronger in those regions where IEs selled earlier and where there was little farmers before them: Poland, Eastern Germany... and the vast (then empty) plains of Central Russia. The pattern of R1a in Europe is clearly coincident with reconstructed IE expansion.
  

Mr. Northman, 

Dear Dass,

Can you tell whether the following Hindi film personalities are Aryans or Dravidians: Aishwarya Rai, Hemamalini, Shipa Shetty, Ashish Vidyarthi, Rani Mukherji, Manoj Bajpai, Usha Uthup, Johny Lever, Sunil Shetty, Ravi Shastri (Cricketer).

^ most of those actors have links with north india. thats why they dont look south indians.

One of my Brahmin friend  told me that the most of the Brahmins in Bengal are from Kannauj and must have gone in Bengal with the forces of Gurjar Pratihars . Many of these Brahmins were established as rulers of Bengal after the Palas were defeated and during Muslim period. During Muslim rule, when defeated these brahmins were also converted to Islam. Later they re-converted to Hindu religion again, did not take their original gotras of the Brahmins but started writing titles like Mukherjee, Chatterjee, Chattopadhyaya, Mukhya Upadyaya etc.

what do you mean by north west indian? and yeah true their features are actually not north indian, like hema malini or shilpa and ash their features are pretty south indian. and oh yeah if you look at old movies of some of these actresses in their regional languages their preety dark skinned, i guess they used some kind of method to become fairer to get roles in bollywood.

The Dravidian Problem

The point is now, the “racial” interpretation of history is not acceptable, as “race” has been considered myth.

When you admit that “we are a mixture of so many races”, it amounts to miscegenation and then there is no question of claiming any “purity”.

When you say that “south India is least effected by the invasion”, are you not disagreeing with AIT?

One cannot go on take different stands.

“Race” as perceived, conceived and propagated as –

N     exclusive royalty or nobility for a religion,

N     exclusivist ideology for a language,

N     parochial claim for superiority, and

N     above all “We are the only pure, chosen people” on the earth etc., is a myth.

There are sites on it: http://sitesled.com/members/racialreality/indo_europeans.html - http://sitesled.com/members/racialreality/indo_europeans.html ,  with connected other sites (just for example). The “race scholars” posed as “anthropologists” have brought out hypotheses not with any definite finality. They always write, -

ó  “It is believed………….”

ó  “According to the theory………….”

ó  “The spreaders of …………………are traditionally considered….”

ó  “…thus, safely concluded……..”

ó  “The most widely accepted theory places………………”

there are clear three types of races in the world, Africans, Causcasians and Mongolied. There skull structure is the main thing that differs.

actually there are differences in facial structure of south indian and north indians in general not just skin colour.

i am not diverting the discussion, also the ring u posted we could barely make out what they look like because its not clear. Also anyone from North india will tell you there are facial differences between the Northern people and Southern people, i am not sure is it because of aryan influnce or some other because North india has seen many invasions during its history.

here is the thing south indians for the most part of the one race dravdians, while north indians many of them but not all are a mix of many different people so yeah generally there is difference in physical features.

I am beginning to question the Aryan invasion, I mean if their was 1 they would defiantly not mix with dravadians.

I mean in the current theory it says when the Aryans first came they alredi had three classes of people  Kshtriya, brhaman, Vaishya, and the when they invaded the the aboriginal Indian population was made into the fouth caste shudra. Now how could some one from a higher caste marry a sudra when in fact a kshtriya wouldent even marry or have children with a vaishya.

In the purans and other vedic txts that the Aryans are said to have followed it is strictly forbidden to marry into a different class punishable by being declared an out caste.

so if their was such an invasion then all of the 3 classes of hindus would be identical to with Europeans or middle easterns (were ever the Aryans supposedly came from)

I mean it doesn’t even happen now and India is becoming westernised so how could it happen back thn?

Im not say their was no mixing at all, its onli natural India has been invaded many times and maybe amoung royalty and noble classes their may have been certain aristocratic marrages between invaders for power. But in general I do not see much mixing. I think its much smaller then what the accepted theory is now.   

1. I find very interesting data - 70% Indo-Aryan and 30% Dravidian and so on. How these figures are obtained?

2. Then, Patha’s “blood analysis” has been also “blood curling” - 70 to even 80% of north indians still have huge amounts of dravidian blood, only 20-30% have more foriegn blood then orginal indian (dravidian) and these 20-30% - one should know from his about the analysis.

3. He has execelled our Dravidian politicians, who used to address their brethren as “Oh my blood”, “Blood of Blood” etc.!

4. Khetriya-Mer’s observation has been perhaps crucial, as he points out that there were only three castes, then fourth came, then, there was prohibition of marriage among them etc.

5. “Aryans” invaded other countries other than “India”. How then, such “Varnashrama dharma” / four tier Social division is not there or remodeled into respective societies accordingly. If so how they are exhibiting and how they are treated?

6. Are they named as social groups - denominations, tribes etc., based on theology or social discrimination or religious?

7. Incidentally, such blood analysis must have been carried out there also to find out the “non-Aryan” element. How much has been there in other countries - Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran, Iraq, etc?

The Sudroid (Indo-African) Race

http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm


http://www.africaspeaks.com/"> The Sudran, or Sudroid, race refers to the aboriginal populations of India. Formerly widepread over all of India, they were displaced from most of Hindustan (North India) and virtually all of the Deccan by invading Aryans. Sudroid includes the following peoples:


Sudroid

• Dravidoids (speakers of Dravidian languages)
• Untouchables or Avarans
  • Antyajas/Dalits/SC
  • Adivasis/ST
• Vedic Shudrs (Aryanized and enslaved blacks)

They are a black race, closely related to the Africans and Australoids, as evident from -

• Black skin , broad noses , thick lips and wavy-curly hair
• Linguistically, all the languages are related.
• Genetically they are closely related

---

This ends the basic section. The advanced section is below.

---

The Sudran (Indo-African) Race

Table of Contents

• The unity of Sudroids, Africoids and Australoids
• http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#phys - 1. Physiognomic Similarities
  
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#black - 1.1 Black Skin
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#nose - 1.2 Nose Width (Nasal Index)
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#wavy - 1.3 Wavy-Curly Hair and Thick Lips
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#prog - 1.4 Prognathism
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#skel - 1.5 Skeletal Similarities
• http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#ethno - 2. Ethnographic Evidence
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#hunt - 2.1 Boomerang & Hunting Customs
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#theo - 2.2 Theological
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#bury - 2.3 Burial & Funerary Customs
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#circ - 2.4 Circumcision & Initiation Rites
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#agri - 2.5 Agricultural
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#build - 2.6 Building Construction & Ship-Building
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#inher - 2.7 Inheritance
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#cal - 2.8 Calendar
• http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#arch - 3. Archaeological
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#mega - 3.1 Megalithic Cultures
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#red - 3.2 Pottery : Red-and-Black Ware
• http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#lang - 4. Linguistic
• http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#gene - 5. Genetic
• http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#zoo - 6. Zoological & Botanical
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#rept - 6.1 Reptiles
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#mamm - 6.2 Mammals
  • http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#bot - 6.3 Botanical

1. Physiognomy

1.1 Black Skin

The most evident similarity between Africans and Sudroids is their black skin colour. It often approaches deep black, and when shiny resemble tar. The Adi Dravidas (true Dravidians) of South India are black like the Africans with a slightly different hair texture [ Win.gen ].

1.2 Nasal Index

The nose of Sudroids closely resembles that of Negroids and Australoids, being very broad. In both pure black African and pure Sudroid it is often as wide as it is broad, ie. the nasal index (ratio of width to height) is 100. By contrast Caucasians are fine-nosed. The Indo-Aryan is thus very similar to the European, possessing a fine nose, while the Sudroid is related to the Africans -

                 Race        Nasal Index         Nasal Type
    Arya (Indo-Aryan)
            Brahman (Bengal)   70.3       fine-nosed    sub-leptorrhine
            Rajput             71.6       fine-nosed    sub-leptorrhine
            Vaisya (Jat)       68.8       fine-nosed    leptorrhine
            Vaisya (Bania)     79.6       medium-nosed  mesorrhine

    Sudroid
            Dravidian (Kadian) 89.8       broad-nosed  platyrrhine
            Dalit (Chamar)     86.0       broad-nosed  platyrrhine
            Adivasi (Munda)    89.9       broad-nosed  platyrrhine
            Vedic Shudrs (Dom) 83.0       broad-nosed  sub-platyrrhine

                                          -- [ Ris App. III p.395 ff ]

By comparison, the French of Paris average 69.4 [ Ris 28-9 ], while pure Africans average between 90 and 100.

1.3 Wavy-Curly Hair & Thick Lips

The hair of Sudroids is wavy and often curly, with imported Africans ( eg. the Makranis, the Siddis of Sind and the Dakhin ) it is frizzy. It is a common misconception to asume all Africoids have frizzy hair; it is often curly and wavy in Nubia and Abyssinia.

Curly Hair -
Friedrich Mueller classified black races according to hair texture, classing them under the tufted-haired peoples ( Bushmen, Hottentots and Papuans ), fleece-haired peoples ( Bantu and Negro ) and wavy-haired peoples ( Hamitic, Semitic and Nuba-Fulla ).
-- [ EB 'Languages of the World' ]

Another trait in common is the thick everted lips [ Arav.neg ] .

1.4 Prognathism

Pronounced prognathism is characteristic of all black races from Africa to southern India and Oceania - Australia. In addition, the teeth are relatively larger in case of Australoids and Kolarians, as well as Dravidians.

1.5 Skeletal Similarities

Long Forearm -
The forearm of Suroids and Africans are long.

Dolicocephaly -
Dolicocephaly ( long-headedness ) is common amongst Sudras. In fact, many are classed as hyperdolicocephalic. Dolicocephaly is common amongst East Africans in general ( Nilotes, Sudanic Blacks and Cush*tes - Hamites or Abyssinians )

2. Ethnographic Evidence

2.1 Boomerang & Hunting Customs

The boomerang is used by Dravidian abroginals, Australoids and is recorded from Egypt.

2.2 Theological

Both Africans and Dravidians held a common interest in teh cult of the Serpent and believed tn a Supreme God, who lived in aplace of peace and tranqulity. Murugan the Dravidian god of the mounatins parallels a common god in East Africa worshipped by 25 ethnic groups called Murungu, the god who resides in the mountains [ Win.gen ]

2.3 Burial & Death Rites

Burning of the dead body is a characteristic of Indo-Aryans, while burial of the dead was common to Indo-Africans. In both South India and the Western Sudan and Senegambia the dead were buried and interned in terra cotta jars [ Singh ] [ Win.gen ]

2.4 Circumcision & Initiation Rites

Circumcision, both male and female, was practiced by Dravidians and is still widely practiced in Africa.

2.5 Agricultural

Both groups use the hoe for tilling the ground, manuring the ground to fertilize crops, terracing irrrigation and canal building.

Wheat of the 6-row variety, which is found in predynastic graves in Egypt, has been discovered at Harappan sites dating much later, as late as 2300-1750 BC. On the Gangetic plain, barley was found at neolithic Hallum in Mysore state (1800 BC). Pearl millet has been found at Saurasthra and Ahar (1200-100 BC). Indian sorghum is clearly of African origin. Cultivated cotton which came from West Africa appear at Mohenjo-Daro and harrapa from 2300-1700 BC. [ Win.agri ]

2.6 Building Construction & Ship-Building

Both races used a single log or planks tied together

2.7 Inheritance

Among the ali tiravitar (Adi Dravidas, or real Dravidians), the system of inheritance passes from the uncle to his nephews, instead of his sons (maru makkal tayam) as in Africa [ Win.gen ]

2.8 Calendrical

The Dravidians and Africans used the same calendrical systema [ Win.agri ].

3. Archaeological

3.1 Megalithic Cultures

Megalithic cultures in India and Africa dating to the third millenium BC are very similar: both contain black-and-red ware, bones and pottery sarcophagi near water tanks [ Win:Agri ]. Cave paintings are also very similar, pointing to ancient contacts.

3.2 Pottery : Red-and-Black Ware

The black races are consistently associated with red-and-black pottery all over the world. Pottery of the Nubians is very similar to Dravidian pottery.

4. Linguistic

The most evident linguistic connections between African and Dravidian languages is in place-names:

   Africa                          India
   ------                          ------
   Botswana, Bophutatswana (reg)   Gondwana (region)
   Ubangi (river)                  Bhangi (caste)
   Gonder (town, reg.)             Gond (tribe)
   Galla  (tribe)                  Goala (caste), Gaya (town)
   Kongo (river, reg., tribe)      Kongu Nadu (reg.), Kond or Khond (tribe)
   Imbangala (tribe)               Bangala or Bengal (tribe, reg.)

• The 'Congo' river and the 'Kongo' tribes are cognate to the Kongu Nadu comprising the Salem tract in Tamil Nadu prior to its conquest by the Cholas [ EB 10 salem 350 ].
• The suffix '-wana' is common to Bantu and Dravidian languages, thus Botswana and Bophuthatswana in southern Africa [ EB 2 botswana 412 ] [ EB 2 boph. 376 ] and Gondwana in central India [ EB 5:358 ].
• The Mbangala or Imbangala warrior tribe of central Angola [ EB 6: imb. 266 ] are cognate to the Bangala tribe and the region named after them in eastern India, which later became Bengal.
• The Ubangi river [ EB ubangi 12:98 ] is the largest right-bank tributary of the Congo river and flows past Bangui town (the capital of the Central African Republic). A black tribe (and later low caste) by the name of Bhangi exists in northern India. The Bangweulu is a large lake and swamp region in northeastern Zambia. In Bantu the term denotes 'Large Water' [ EB 1 bangw. 868 ]
• The Galla are the largest ethnic group in Ethipia, forming 40 % of the population [ EB 5 galla 87 ]. They are cattle-herders, as are the black-skinned low-caste known as Goala (cow-herders) in central India.
• The Mbundu are the second-largest ethnic group of Angola [ EB 7 mbundu 986 ] while the Munda are in Eastern India.
• The Ndongo tribe of the Mbundu [ EB 7 mbundu 986 ] are perhaps cognate to the Dombas or Doms of India.
• The Godabas of Somalia may have given their name to the Godavari River in the Deccan.
• Congates of 'gond' and 'gong' are widepread in Africa and Dravidia. Gonder or Gondar is the ancient capital of Ethiopia 1652-1855 as well as the surrounding region. The Gongola river is the primary tributary of the Benue River, while the Gongola basin is in northeastern Nigeria [ EB 5 gongola 359 ]. The Guang or Gonja in northern Ghana, who are descendant of Mandingos, speak the Gur and Goja languages and founded the Gonja kingdom [ EB 5 guang 532 ] The Gond are a large group of Draviidan tribes in Central India.

The Congolese linguist Th. Obenga proposed the term 'Indo-African' languages in analogy with 'Indo-European' [ Obenga ]. Prof. L. Homburger established close linguistic connections between Dravidian and Senegalese languages especially Fulani, as well as Kannada - Bantu and Telugu - Mande relationships [ Hom ]. Prof. Tuttle established connections between Nubian and Dravidian languages [ Tuttle ]. Prof. Lahoverty established conections between African and Dravidian languages [ Lah ]. Senegalese and Dravidian languages are closely related grammatically, structurally and lexically [ N'D ] [ Ups ]. The Upper Nile basin is considered by some scholars to be the original home of the Dravidians on linguistic grounds [ Win.gen 1118 ]

Dravidian legends mention an ancient landmass which disappeared into the Ocean. The Tamils say that it was highly populated and included large cities, now buried beneath the sea. Tamil historians have discussed this land mass in detail throughout history; eg. Ariyarkkunallar in the 12th century. Linguistic evidence indicates that the Dravidians are related to the C-group Nubians of the Western Sahara who built the Kerma empire. Since Egypt was often at war with Kerma, the connection across Lemuria seems more plausible. [Winters:Agri]

5. Genetic

The Sudroid and Africoid peoples are also genetically closely related. The genetic similarities between Africans and Sudrics include:

• Glucose-6-Phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency
• Gene for sickle-cell anemia is common
• Enzymes providing malaria resistance are present

The Kolarians (Indo-Australoids) share many genetic similarities with the Australoids and Oceanic Negroids. Genetic similarities of the Kolarians with the Australoids and Oceanic Negroids include :

• Glucose-6-Phosphate dehydrogenase deficiency and alcohol intolerance
• A large ratio of B type blood
• Rarity of Rhesus negative
• Rarity of P2 gene
• Rarity of A type, and especially A2
• Shovel-shaped incisors are common
• Low bi-zygomatic diameter

In addition, the hair is frequently reddish to blonde in childhood in the case of Australoid Blackfellows, Dravidians and Kolarians.

Genetic Studies of mtDNA of Dravidians in Andhra displayed a close similarity with African populations [ Bam ].

6. Zoological & Botanical Evidence

Zoological and Botanical similarities are numerous between animal and plant species of Africa, Australia and South India (Dravidia). This indicates that the similarity of humans extends to the plant and animal kingdoms as well. These similarities arise from either migration across the Suez and the MIddle East into India and thence to Australia, or due to submerged land bridges in the Indian Ocean.

6.1 Reptiles

Python -
The python is found from western Africa to China, Australia and the Pacific Islands. The slender reticulated python is probably the world's longest snake, often reaching 8 m ( 26 feet ) with one specimen recorded as 9.6 m in length. The Indian python is usually less than 4 m but is much thicker and sometimes reaches 8m in length. The African python often reaches 7 m while the species in West Africa ( the Ball/Royal python ) is, as expected, smaller, reaching 1.5 m. The blood python of Malaya, Sumatra and Borneo is reddish and averages 2.7 m.
-- [ EB 9 'python' 828 ]

Mangrove Snake -
The manrove snake, comprising 30 species of hte genus Boiga, is found from tropical Africa to Australia and Polynesia [ EB 7'mangr.'774 ].

6.2 Mammals

Rhinoceros -
The term denotes any of 5 species of the family Rhinocerotidae ( and sometimes includes extinct fossil genera ). These animals are found only in eastern and southern Africa and tropical Asia, lending further support to the unity of vegetation of Africa and India and indicating that recent exchange of zoo-botanicl contact existed much after the breakup of Gondwanaland. The great Indian rhino ( R. unicornis ) is the largest of all extant species, reaching 4.3 m in length and 2 m in height at the shoulder, while the Sumatran rhino is the smallest ( height 2.5 m or 8 foot and 2 m high ).
-- [ EB 10 'rhino' 23 ]

Buffalo -
Buffalos are again common to Africa and the Indies, while the related bison/wisent occurs in North America and Europe. The black Indian buffalo ( Bubalus bubalus ) reaches 1.5 m of more at the shoulder, as does the black Cape or African buffalo ( Syncerus caffer ). A red-brown subspecies of the Cape buffalo in the dense forests of equatorial western Africa is, like humans and animals of West Africa in general, much smaller. The anoa, a small dark brown buffalo of the dense Celebes rainforests and the tamaraw of the Philippines are also smaller species.
-- [ EB 2 'buffalo' 607 ]

Elephant -
The elephant once again is restricted to the Indies and Africa. 3 species exist: the Indian elephant, the large African elephant and the dwarfish Pygmy elephant of the rainforests of West Africa.
-- [ EB 4 'elephant' 441-2 ]

Felidae (Felines) -
The lion was once found in Africa, Europe and Asia. Now it is found only in sub-Saharan Africa and in India (eg. the Gir National Forest, Gujarat) [ EB 7 'lion' 382-3 ]. The leopard is found from Africa trough Anatolia, Central Asia, India, China and Manchuria. Varieties include the Barbary, South Arabian, ANantolian, Amur, SInai leopards [ EB 'leo.' 281 ]

6.3 Botanical

Baobab Tree -
The baobab trees ( Adansonia digitata ), belonging to the bombax family (Bombacaceae) are native to Africa. However, a closely related and very similar tree, also known as baobab ( Adansonia gregoria ), occurs in Australia ! [ EB 1 'baobab' 877 ]

Banyan Tree -
The banyan tree ( Ficus benghalensis ) with its characteristic prop roots that resemble trunks is native to India. However, a similar variety, the wonderboom ( Ficus pretoia ) of Africa is very similar [ EB 28 'trees' 881 ] !

Capparaceae Trees -
Trees of the order Capparaceae, family moringaceae occur from Africa to India [ EB 13'angio.'638 ] and are another indication of the unity of Indian and African botanical life.

---

Appendix I - The Sudran Races

The Sudra, or Indo-African, Race consists of the following sub-races:

• Dravidian - Dravidian-speaking Sudras:
  • Settled Dravidians - Tamils, Mallas/Malabaris, and Karnadas
  • Adivasi Dravidas in North India (Gonds, Bhils, Brahui etc.) and South India (Tulus, Kurumba etc.)
• Kolarians - Austric-Speaking Blacks or Indo-Australoid Sudras.
• Dalits - Hindicized Aboriginal Blacks and imported Africans (Habshis), SC in North India

Appendix II - Origin of the Term Sudra

The term Shudra first appears in Sanskrit texts around 1500 BC denoting one of the black aboriginal tribes that the Aryans conquered. It was subsequently expanded to all blacks subjugated, and the term Dasa or Dasyu , or slave, was used to denote the servitude to which most Sudras were subjected. Sanskrit texts refer to the Shudra as the black varna or colour. Thus Shudra is equivalent as a racial term to the Latin Negra . Initially it only referred to subjugated aboriginals and not the aboriginals themselves who were referred to as avarna and later Adiavasi. Thus the terms Adivasi and Sudra were exclusive. Later under Muslim rule Arabic: sudd- black and hence Sudra 9not Shudra) became the generic term for Indian blacks.

In its modern sense Sudra denoted any black man in India and hence includes the following sub-races:

• Dravidians - Speakers of Dravidian languages. This includes
  • South Indian Dravidians or Settled Dravidians
    • Tamils
    • Mallas/Malabaris : Malayalis, Mallas
    • Karanad
  • Adivasi or Aboriginal Dravidians (eg. Tulu, Kurumba)
• Kolarians - Kolarian speakers, incl. Mundas, Oraons, Santal, Ho
• Dalits - Hindicized Sudras. This includes
  • Habshis or Hindicized Abyssinians
  • Hindicized Kols, eg. Bhuiyas

---

The term Shudra is first recorded from Sanskrit texts as referring to one of the black aboriginal tribes that the Aryans encountered. It is the name of a black tribe that was adopted into Sanskrit and was subsequently used to denote those blacks who had entered the caste system as the lowest 'varna' or color. They were the black varna. Initially, a distinction was drawn between Sudra and Adivasi (aboriginal blacks outside the caste system). However, in Prakrits the distinction was blurred, and Shudra was used for any aboriginal. During the Islamic Califate of Hindustan, Arabic became a sacred language, and in Arabic 'sudd' means black ( hence the 'bilad as-Sudan' or the Sudan of Africa ), and hence Sudra was used for any black, even the blacks imported from Africa. Terms of Abuse incl. Kalu kalia Kaluta kaffir English Hindustani Negro (Latin "negri") Sudra (Sans. "Shudra", Arab. "Sudd",black Black Kala

Appendix III - Nasal Index

The classification in general use is - leptorrhine (fine nose) if the nasal index is 70, mesorrhine is it is between 70-85 and platyrrhine (broad-nosed) if it is 85. The Indo-Aryan is comparable to the European, fopr the French of Paris have a nasal index of 69.4 as measurd by Topinard [ Ris 28-9 ]. According to Sir H.H.Risley, the nose of Sudras is very similar to that of the lowest Negro types. The nasal index frequently reaches more than 100. The Paniyans of Malabar have an average nasal index of 95, while certain individual Kadias of Tamil Nad measured 115. [ Ris App.III p.369].

        Race           Nasal Index           Nasal Type

 Indo-Aryan (Arya)
     Brahman (Bengal)     70.3               sub-leptorrhine
     Brahman (Bihar)      73.2               sub-leptorrhine
     Brahman (Bhojpur)    74.6               sub-leptorrhine
     Rajput               71.6               sub-leptorrhine
     Kayasth (Bengal)     70.3               sub-leptorrhine
     Jat                  68.8               leptorrhine
     Vaisya (Bania)       79.6               sub-leptorrhine
     Gujjar               66.9               leptorrhine

     Sikhs                68.8               leptorrhine [ Ris 28-9 ]

  Sudroid
     Paniyans (Malabar)   95.1               platyrrhine
     Santal               88.8               platyrrhine
     Munda                89.9               platyrrhine
     Kol                  82.2               sub-platyrrhine
     Kadia                89.8               platyrrhine
     Vellala              73.1               sub-platyrrhine
     Tamil Brahman        76.7               sub-platyrrhine
     Asur (Lohardaga)     95.9               platyrrhine
     Bhil                 84.1               sub-platyrrhine
     Pariah               80.0               sub-platyrrhine
     Irula                80.9               sub-platyrrhine
     Kadia                89.8               platyrrhine
     Musahar              88.7               platyrrhine
     Chamar               86.0               platyrrhine
     Dom                  83.0               sub-platyrrhine

                             -- [ Ris App. III p.395 ff ]

Certain more recent analysts wish to refute Risley's claims [ Ghurye ] [ Bose ] but their results lack the depth and quality of RIsley's.

Appendix IV - Linguistic Relationships

The most evident linguistic connections between African and Dravidian languages is in place-names:

   Africa                          India
   ------                          ------
   Botswana, Bophutatswana (reg)   Gondwana (region)
   Ubangi (river)                  Bhangi (caste)
   Gonder (town, reg.)             Gond (tribe)
   Gongola                         Gond
   Gonga (people,Ghana)            Gond
   Galla  (tribe)                  Goala (caste), Gaya (town)
   Kongo (river, reg., tribe)      Kongu Nadu (reg.), Kond or Khond (tribe)
   Imbangala (tribe)               Bangala or Bengal (tribe, reg.)
   Tsonga (tribe)                  Tunga (Kalinga abor. rulg. family)
   Tonga (tribe)                   Tunga
   Pongo                           Pandya (Tamil dyn.), Ponda
   Kadamba                         Kurumba (tribe, dyn.)
   Katanga (distt., Congo)         Kurumba
   Karanga (eth.Zimbab.)           Kurumba
   Kamba (n.e. Bantu)              Kadamba (or Kurumba)
   Sotho, Basuto (tr., S.Afr.)     Sudra (caste)
   Aja (tr., Nigeria)              Anga
   Kinga (tr.)                     Kalinga (natn)
   Ila (tr.)                       Irula
   Ila                             Bhilla
   Toga                            Toda
   Ganda (tr.)                     Ganda (anus, Sans.)
   Mamba                           Malla, Malaya, Malabar
   Nuer                            Nayar (caste)
   Pongo                           Pengu (tr.,Orissa)
   Mende (w.afr.people)            Manda (Drav.people)
   Zulu (tr., S.Af.)               Tulu
   Uganda                          Konda (Dr.tr.), Gonda
   Iramba (rift Bantu)             Irula
   Turu (rift Bantu)               Tulu
   Masai (e. Nilotes)              Malay or Malabar, Mallas
   Kinga (Nyasa Bantu, Tanz.)      Kalinga (natn.,race)

   Manyika                         Mleccha (sans. for barbarian)

The 'Congo' river and the 'Kongo' tribes are cognate to the Kongu Nadu comprising the Salem tract in Tamil Nadu prior to its conquest by the Cholas [ EB 10 salem 350 ]. The suffix '-wana' is common to Bantu and Dravidian languages, thus Botswana and Bophuthatswana in southern Africa [ EB 2 botswana 412 ] [ EB 2 boph. 376 ] and Gondwana in central India [ EB 5:358 ]. The Mbangala or Imbangala warrior tribe of central Angola [ EB 6: imb. 266 ] are cognate to the Bangala tribe and the region named after them in eastern India, which later became Bengal. The Ubangi river [ EB ubangi 12:98 ] is the largest right-bank tributary of the Congo river and flows past Bangui town (the capital of the Central African Republic). A black tribe (and later low caste) by the name of Bhangi exists in northern India. The Bangweulu is a large lake and swamp region in northeastern Zambia. In Bantu the term denotes 'Large Water' [ EB 1 bangw. 868 ] The Galla are the largest ethnic group in Ethipia, forming 40 % of the population [ EB 5 galla 87 ]. They are cattle-herders, as are the black-skinned low-caste known as Goala (cow-herders) in central India. The Mbundu are the second-largest ethnic group of Angola [ EB 7 mbundu 986 ] while the Munda are in Eastern India. The Ndongo tribe of the Mbundu [ EB 7 mbundu 986 ] are perhaps cognate to the Dombas or Doms of India. The Godabas of Somalia may have given their name to the Godavari River in the Deccan. Congates of 'gond' and 'gong' are widepread in Africa and Dravidia. Gonder or Gondar is the ancient capital of Ethiopia 1652-1855 as well as the surrounding region. The Gongola river is the primary tributary of the Benue River, while the Gongola basin is in northeastern Nigeria [ EB 5 gongola 359 ]. The Guang or Gonja in northern Ghana, who are descendant of Mandingos, speak the Gur and Goja languages and founded the Gonja kingdom [ EB 5 guang 532 ] The Gond are a large group of Draviidan tribes in Central India.

The Congolese linguist Th. Obenga proposed the term 'Indo-African' languages in analogy with 'Indo-European' [ Obenga ]. Prof. L. Homburger established close linguistic connections between Dravidian and Senegalese languages especially Fulani, as well as Kannada - Bantu and Telugu - Mande relationships [ Hom ]. Prof. Tuttle established connections between Nubian and Dravidian languages [ Tuttle ]. Prof. Lahoverty established conections between African and Dravidian languages [ Lah ]. Senegalese and Dravidian languages are closely related grammatically, structurally and lexically [ N'D ] [ Ups ]. The Upper Nile basin is considered by some scholars to be the original home of the Dravidians on linguistic grounds [ Win.gen 1118 ]

Clear relationships have been established between Dravidian and Australoid languages [ Holmer ] [ Bleek ] [ 3 Oc. 189 ].

Apendix V - Lemuria

Dravidian legends mention an ancient landmass which disappeared into the Ocean. The Tamils say that it was highly populated and included large cities, now buried beneath the sea. Tamil historians have discussed this land mass in detail throughout history; eg. Ariyarkkunallar in the 12th century. Linguistic evidence indicates that the Dravidians are related to the C-group Nubians of the Western Sahara who built the Kerma empire. Since Egypt was often at war with Kerma, the connection across Lemuria seems more plausible. [Winters:Agri]

The English zoologost Philip Sclater propsed the theory of the continent of Lemuria in the mid-1800s [ 3 Oc. 127 ]

Appendix V - Miscellaneous Notes

The Asurs of Lohardaga [ Ris p.399 ] Dravidian

'In fact the word 'Kol' is a loose term used by the Hindus of the plains as a word of derision. De Meulder describes it as an Indian equivalent of the word 'nigger' in the US ... [for scientific purposes Kol includes teh Larka Kols or Hos of Man and Dhalbhhum, the Munda Kols of Chotanagpur and the Bhumij ... The Hos are physically [supereior] to the other cognate branches of the Kolarian tribes... p.9 'The constatnt early use of teh bow expanded the chest and set the muscles and their innate passion for the chase over the steep and rugged hills brought their lower limbs nto a state of fitness, which the best phulwan (wrestler) of the plains of India might envy. Male height average 5'5" or 5'6" height women 5'2" .. copper tint complexion common women physically hetter ... developed Aryan influence ... more than 50 % of the population in Chota Nagpur division.'
-- [C.P.Singh p.8]

References

1. [ Arav.ph ] = K.P.Aravanan, 'Physical and cultural similarities between Dravidian and African' , J. of Tamil Studies 10 (1976) 23-27
   
   
2. [ Arav.bk ] = K.P.Aravanan, 'Dravidians and Africans', Madras 1979.
   
   
3. [ Arav.neg ] = K.P. Aravanan, 'Notable negroid elements in Dravidian India', Journal of Tamil Studies 17 (1980) pp.20-45.
   
   
4. [ Ann. ] = 'The Annals of Rural Bengal', W.W.Hunter, Broomhill House 1868, reprinted in 'Landmarsk in Indian Anthropology', vol. 7, Cosmo Publishing, N.Delhi 1987
   
   
5. [ Bam ] = M. Bamshad et al, "mtDNA Variation in Caste Populations" Human Biology v. 68 (1996) 1
   
   
6. [ Bleek ] = 'Handbook of African, Australian & Polynesian Languages', William H.J.Bleek, 3 vols. (1858-63)
   
   
7. [ Bose ] = 'The Gazetteer of India', vol.1, Govt. of India, 1973, N.K.Bose, A.Mitra & H.Mukherjee. opposes Risley's idea of nasal index variation by caste.
   
   
8. [ Ghurye ] = 'Caste, Class and Occupation in India', Bombay 1961 opposes the notion of caste variation of nasal index.
   
   
9. [ Holmer ] = 'On the History & Structure of the Australian Language', N.M.Holmer, Lund, Sweden 1963
   
   
10. [ Lal ] = Lal, B , "The Only Asian expedition in threatened Nubia : Work by an Indian Mission at Afyeh and Tumas", The Illustrated London Times , 20 April 1963.
    
    
11. [ N'D ] C.T. N'Diaye, 'The relationship between Dravidian languages and Wolof', Annamalai University Ph.D. Thesis.1978.
    
    
12. [ Muir ] = 'Original Sanskrit Texts', Muir
    
    
13. [ Obenga ] = 'L'Afrique dans l'Antiquete', Th. Obenga, Paris
    
    
14. [ 3 Oc. ] = 'Riddles of 3 Oceans', Alexander Kondratov
    
    
15. [ Ris ] = 'The People of India' by Sir H.H.Risley 1915
    2nd ed., ed. by Sir W. Crooke 1969
    
    
16. [ Singh ] = P. Singh, 'Burial Practices in Ancient India', Varanasi 1984
    
    
17. [ Seng.neg ] = 'Negritude and Dravidian Culture' , L.S.Senghor, J. of Tamil Studies 10 (1974) p.4
    
    
18. [ Seng.y ] = 'Why create a Department of Indo-African Studies at Dahar', J. of Tamil Studies 5 (1974) 1-11
    
    
19. [ Tuttle ] = 'Dravidian and Nubian', E.H.Tuttle, J. of the Amer. Oreintal Society 52 (1932) 133-144
    
    
20. [ Upa ] = 'Dravidian and Negro-African', U.P.Upadhyaya, Intnl. J. of Dravidian Linguisitsics 5:1 (1976) 32-64
    
    
21. [ U+U 76 ] = P.Upadhyaya & S.P.Upadhyaya, 'Affinites ethno-linguistiques entre Dravidiens et les Negro-Africain' , Bull. IFAN , no.1 (1976) pp.127-157
    
    
22. [ U+U 79 ] = P. Upadhyaya & S.P. Upadhyaya, 'Les liens entre Kerala et l"Afrique tels qu'ils resosortent des survivances culturelles et linguistiques', Bulletin de L'IFAN , no.1 (1979) pp.100-132
    
    
23. [ Win.gen ] = 'The Genetic Unity of Dravidian and African Language and Culture', Clyde A. Winters, 1st Intnl Symosm. on Asian Studies 5, 1105-1120
    
    
24. [ Win.agri ] = 'African Influences on Indian Agriculture',
    J of African Civlization, 3:1 (April 1981) p.100-110
    
    
25. [ Win.un ] = C.A. Winters, 'The Unity of African and Indian Agriculture', Journal of African Civilization 3, no.1 (1981a) p.103
    
    
26. [ Win.prot ] = C.A.Winters, 'The Proto-Culture of the Dravidians, Manding and Sumerians', Tamil Civilization 3, no.1 (March 1985) p.1-9
    
    
27. [ Win.pla ] = C.A.Winters, 'Common African and Dravidian Place Name Elements', South Asian Anthropologist 9:1 (1988) 32-36
    
    
28. [ Win.dal ] = 'The African Origin of Glorious Dalits', Dalit Voice 4:2 (16-30 Sept. 1985 ) 1-8
    
    
29. [ Win.lang ] = C.A.Winters, "The Dravidian and African Languages", International Journal of Dravidian Linguistics , 23 (2), (1994) pp.34-52.
    
    
30. [ Win.com ] = C.A.Winters, 'Linguistic continuity and African and Dravidian languages', 25 (2), (1996) pp.24-35.
    
    
31. [ Win.elam ] = C.A.Winters, "The genetic Unity between the Dravidian ,Elamite, Manding and Sumerian Languages", Proc. Sixth ISAS ,1984, (Hong Kong:Asian Research Service,1985d) pages 1413-1425.
    
    
32. [ EB ] = 'Encyclopedia Britannica'

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I have read the above posting very carefully three times.

I have referred to the secondary sources mentioned.

I have those books and journals also and I have discussed wth Sri. K. P Aravanan also.

Sunswning's posting of the article is mixture of secondary sources and appears to be "Dravidian propaganda". I know some of AE have already condemned such "Tamil nationalist" view. In fact, they oppose and treat "Aryans" as their enemies. Their writings, if you happend to read, you may not relish also.

Thus, the research on "Aryans" and "Dravidians" on the lines of race, racism and racialism is rejected, but the linguistic interpretation is pursued. But again and again , they are confused to infuse race and racism with hatred against one particular community (it may be called fascism also, as they use to dub others with such terminology).

See the fun, to establish the "Sudra / Dravidian" identity, the "Aryan / Sanskrit" source is depended upon and quoted. Why such words are not found in their own literature?

Psychologically, antropologically and sociologically, the literature is the primary source of evidence of people, in which, they have recorded their thought processes subjected to various psychological and hereditary factors.

The victors never exhibit slavish mentality. The slaves or the defeated show their superficial "winning mentality". That is why generally, the defeated inscribe in their records that they won the whole world and even beyond etc., mentioning their own known names, even though, they might not even known or seen such things with such names. Of course, if we ask mayerial evidences, they would not show and they go on harp upon such evidences.

Finally, I have dealt with in my paper giving all data in tables appended, but as has already mentioned my paper has been meddled with.

So if any researcher tries to prove “Shudra” character in morphology, oestiology, blood etc., let them disprove Edgar Thruston and others.

Therefore, instead of "politicized" interpretation, historical interpretation is better.

The aryan-dravidian is actually a false theory. If there had been any such movement of Central Asian ppl to this sub-continent it would been well identified today. But the south asian-indian subconitent people are identified with their unique appearance worldover. If there had been any such movement then it would been visibly seen like the 'Mongals in Turkey'.

Even the dravidian theory is equally false. All the subcontinent people have their origin from indus civilization. The upper region had ppl of pale brown, the middle with brown and the lower region with more brownish. This too because of inhabitence of the people in the region for long time and this color impact is becuase of latitude of the regions to the sun ray.  People living down the equator are darker in color worldover be it chinese or native american indians.

For insisting the same, the group of afericanas whom travelled over the continents to australia some 20000 years before and stayed inbetween in certain pockets are till indentified with separate sects in south india and pakistan. Then how come such aryans were be left without any identification. But there is one possibility of such one small group been moved and mixed with local population whom are called Brahmins. Even in this case, the central asian content in this population would be very marginal. Still the sub-continent is revolving around the aryan-dravidian mis-concept.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=3205&FID=35 - Why such words are not found in their own literature?

Psychologically, antropologically and sociologically, the literature is the primary source of evidence of people, in which, they have recorded their thought processes subjected to various psychological and hereditary factors."

Good point! Only professional stuff should speak...

Arya-Dravida concept is found nowhere before 1600 AD. It was a english weapon to divide and rule.

Sunsung, yours is fun and baseless!

Yours lingusitic similarities is biggest joke. When most of south-asian languages (like bangla, kannada etc) are so young being less than 1000 years old (other than of sanskrit and tamil) how come you insist that. Even hindi, tamil and other few indian languages follow same format and script. You can check for the sameness with these below vowels/constants of hindi with tamil, ha, haa, maa, pa, ta, la, ka, cha, knya, na, tha, nah, yaa, ra etc. The vowel series followed in tamil and hindi is very same. To the most the pronounsation of vowels are alike in both languages. People of Indian-subcontinent have one root be it lingual or ethnic.

So what do you say for the cities in same names 'Salem' in south india, america and europe. So are you ready to insist a connection in this basis. 

Zoological, Botanical, http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#rept - - Mammals,  http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/Sudroid.htm#bot - were one land which later splitted and moved to become different continents. Yours 'zoo and Botanical' base fit to discussed for that era. ...Millions of year back. lumeria, kumari which were swept by sunamis could clear you to the best.

Irrespective of being white Caucasians you can differentiate a Polish with a German and a Russian with an English on above basis. The same applies for the People of Indian subcontient. Moreover, "A civilization that prolonged for much longer period will naturally produce diversified outputs"

The political "Aryans-Dravidians" may not die down, whether they are black, brown or white.

i am not sure if aryans existed in india or not. but one thing is for sure today north india has a lot of foriegn blood. ( for example punjabis look so different from tamils)

Not really, excluding the Punjab and Kashmir regions most of India is homogenous with some exceptions. Punjab, Haryana, Himachal Pradesh are the states which were bordering states thus being affected by inter-breeding. We have proof of Greek genes being found amongst 50% of the Khatris (business caste) in Punjab region as well as 30% of Jaats, Gujjars etc.  These are the mixed breeds of India/Pakistan who were products of rapes and concubine takings.

I have noted the endogamous and exogamous claims of certain clans / groups.

Geographical and climatic factors affect morphological elements, which cannot be taken as finality of deciding anything.

Change in such factors along with miscegenation could bring more changes during the course.

Ayway purity of any factor claimed in such exclusive manner would lead to complication only.

You say all appear morphologically alike after miscegenation?

Or you change your stand as posted earlier?

"Geographical and climatic factors affect morphological elements."

This is world wide accepted one by the researchers and scientists, where these two factors have complete impact over color ness of people. But here it takes centuries together for a sub-group to get morphed and turn different from its parental group. It's not instant!

Annnd Kashmir and Nepali are much different groups from rest of the groups of this subcontinent. Why comparing tamil with kashmiri, compare Punjabi or bihari with kashimiri.You will find the same lot of differences.

Sameway, Punjabis cannot be excluded and what can be said for the browner, darker, shorter Punjabis (sub groups) among.

Rapes and concubine takings by omkara are third level grounds taken for explanation.

We talk about the events of whatever nature happened 2500-3000 YBP or more.

What Pathani has mentioned about people of Kashmir and Tamizhagam could have been slip of tongue or he wanted to say some other thing, we do not know.

If we go by the hypothesis that Tamils were ruling entire India and even beyond north-west and north-east, the Tamil-protagonists would be more happy to consider.

Interestingly, important maritime / naval technology words have closeness to the words in Tamil and as well as Sanskrit. Of corse, both have many similarities.

Scientifically, one cannot be sure to what extent people could be exactly identified with any factor - chromosome etc.

Ironically, at one side, we go on ague all human beings are one, Universal brotherhood (anybody talks about Universal Sisterhood) and so on. Why then divide people like this?

The movement of people from the south to north in India and thereafter has not been studied properly. I think, here scholars have to concentrate. the Tsunami-studies might reveal more about such exigencies.

But, kindly note who has suggestred?

I am only trying out the historical possibility.

Mentioning the people of Bharat / ancient India as Tamils, etc., creates problem or makes one misunderstand and even misinterpret.

Coming to my paper “The Dravidian Problem”, it has also been disturbed:

When I found, I requested and then, perhaps “Nothman” made it appear.

But, evidently, as some points were missing, I think I have made the following posting with request:

Any way, the “Aryan-Dravidian” discussion prompted me to see my earlier postings.

If the discussion is started, we can discuss and debate here itself.

I have read the posting completely.

I find the members have purposely diverted the issue instead of tackling the issue.

We Dravidians oppose the interpretation of K. V. Ramakrishna Rao. I doubt that he might be an “Aryan” and therefore, we understand that he interprets Tamil literature in that way. Do think that I am bringing racial factor, when people identify themselves and others, we have to follow the same.

There have been thousands of books written by many reputed historians explaining the difference between Aryans and Dravidians. Dravidians have unique culture. Non can claim over such Dravidian culture.

I find the points raised by sunswing1983 have not been answered.