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Suggest words for non-IE English words
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Cyrus Shahmiri View Drop Down
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Suggest words for non-IE English words
    Posted: 29-Oct-2004 at 04:04
English is an Indo-European language but there are some non-IE words in this language, for example the English word "camel" has a semetic origin, it comes from Arabic "Jamal", Hebrew "Gamal", Assyrian "Gumla", Akkadian "Gammalu", ... but the Avestan/Sanskrit word for camel is "Ushtra" (like "Zaraushtra" = Zoroaster [Loving the camel]), so what should be the English word for it? Is there something like Ushtra in other European languages?
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Posts: 537 		  Quote hansioux Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Oct-2004 at 04:14

Originally posted by Cyrus Shahmiri

English is an Indo-European language but there are some non-IE words in this language, for example the English word "camel" has a semetic origin, it comes from Arabic "Jamal", Hebrew "Gamal", Assyrian "Gumla", Akkadian "Gammalu", ... but the Avestan/Sanskrit word for camel is "Ushtra" (like "Zaraushtra" = Zoroaster [Loving the camel]), so what should be the English word for it? Is there something like Ushtra in other European languages?

Well, first of all... there aren't any camels in England.  So when the language was developing, the word of camel must have been introduced when English people were able to travel to the middle east.  Besides, the use of camel as transportation is a later discovery than horses right?

Much like even though Taiwanese aboriginals are part of Austronesians, however since most of highland tribes never sailed the oceans, they lacked the common root words of those seafaring Austronesians.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2004 at 22:24
Hmmm, yes.  A natual English word for "camel" could only have occurred either by defusion from another IE culture familiar with them, or by borrowing from a non-IE culture familiar with them.  In the case of "camel" there is no original IE word, but a borrowing from either an unattested or extinct central Asian language (for the Bactrian camel) or a Semitic language (for the dromedary).  The immediate predecessors to speakers of English were those speaking a western Germanic dialect from a region in northern Europe where camels were definitely not native.   Of IE cultures, the only ones which would have been in regions where the camel exist (central Asia and northeastern Iran) where the Bactrian camel lives would have been either Indo-Iranian or Tocharian, and since the word "camel" was not part of the original IE vocabulary, their word may have come from a non-IE source. 
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Oct-2004 at 23:19

..the English word "camel" has a semetic origin, it comes from Arabic "Jamal", Hebrew "Gamal", Assyrian "Gumla", Akkadian "Gammalu"
So when the language was developing, the word of camel must have been introduced when English people were able to travel to the middle east.
 

I think  English word "Camel" is a Latin/Greek loan word. But as you said it's of a semitic origin.

Kamelos - in Greek
Camelus - in Latin
Cameil -  in Old English, Anglo-Norman

In the case of "camel" there is no original IE word, but a borrowing from either an unattested or extinct central Asian language (for the Bactrian camel) or a Semitic language (for the dromedary).

What do you think about Persian word for camel "Shotor"? Is it of IE origin or was it borrowed as well?



Edited by Elteber
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Posts: 485 		  Quote Serge L Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 08:13
Analogously, I suppose other words referred to things that do not exist in England or Europe (e.g. Igloo, Kangaroo, etc.) are not IE.
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 09:02

What do you think about Persian word for camel "Shotor"? Is it of IE origin or was it borrowed as well?

Probably borrowed.  The more ancient Avestan (Eastern Iranian) and Sanskrit (Indo-Aryan) word for camel was ushtra (of which shotor was either its modern descendant or derived from the same source) in such names as Zarathushtra (Avestan) and ushtra-asana (Sanskrit).  It has no further etymology beyond camel, and so was probably from some extinct local non-IE language..
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Posts: 166 		  Quote Rava Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 11:08
In Polish camel has no name but is described by its function and abilities. Its typical for hunting societies. We say wielbd [czech. velbloud] what might be translated as: good for vast areas. Wiele = full, whole, a lot of, much and verb bdzi means blunder, err. The only one small desert /sandy/ place in Poland is named using bd- root, therefore in old Polish this word was probably used to name a desert place as well. Where our ancestors have learned camels' abilities it's another question...
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 11:37

Probably borrowed.  The more ancient Avestan (Eastern Iranian) and Sanskrit (Indo-Aryan) word for camel was ushtra (of which shotor was either its modern descendant or derived from the same source) in such names as Zarathushtra (Avestan) and ushtra-asana (Sanskrit).  It has no further etymology beyond camel, and so was probably from some extinct local non-IE language..

ustra = oshtor = shotor = camel

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5646/splendor1.html

If that's correct, there is a valid IE substitute for the semitic word Camel!



Edited by Elteber
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Posts: 366 		  Quote Degredado Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 12:04
Algebra, from the Arab word meaning "teenage stupor".
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Posts: 6240 		  Quote Cyrus Shahmiri Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Nov-2004 at 12:30
Are there any rhinoceros [from Greek "rhinokeras" (rhin=nose & keras=horn)] or crocodile [from Greek "krokodilos"='worm of the stones'] in England?
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Posts: 1314 		  Quote Sharrukin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Nov-2004 at 06:53

If that's correct, there is a valid IE substitute for the semitic word Camel!

Again, the Iranian word for 'camel' is probably from a non-IE source, just as the English word is, ultimately, of non-IE (Semitic) origin.   The best that can be said of the earliest known word "ushtra" is that it is a valid Indo-Iranian substitute for the Semitic word 'camel'.  Remember, Indo-Iranian is only one branch in the many branches of IE.  It was not the "first" or "near the first" group of IE languages.  In terms of archaic features, that honor goes to Anatolian and Tocharian.
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