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2? re Roman senate and plebeian power

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    Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 14:15
Couple of things I have not understood from anything I've read. Anybody care to enlighten me?

By 715 BC, according to Livy (1.17), the Senate existed already existed during the time of the Kings; and, in fact, they gained the authority to ratify choice of King.

How did the Senate actually come into being? It seems a rather odd departure from other ancient political entities (other than maybe Greece), and yet the first time we hear of it, it is already full-formed.

The Plebeian Assembly gained ground, perhaps not steadily, but in a general trend, during the early and middle Republican days. It is not clear to me, really, how they accomplished this. There were two recorded secessions, but I have not read so far why these were effective at bending the patricians to their will. In various places I have read things implying that the plebeians "forced" the patricians to concede rights to them, or they waited out the patricians, but I have not read the actual mechanisms by which the plebeians were able to win these contests. I just don't get it - seems like the patricians could have put down the plebeians forcefully whenever they seemed to be getting too big for their britches.

Thanks.
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Theodore Felix View Drop Down
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  Quote Theodore Felix Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Jan-2006 at 14:43
How did the Senate actually come into being? It seems a rather odd departure from other ancient political entities (other than maybe Greece), and yet the first time we hear of it, it is already full-formed.


According to Plutarch the senate was a product of Romulus. However in likely hood it follows the Polybian "circle of governments. The abolishment of the kingship left the aristocracy in the place of power who in turn created an aristocratic dominated government.

It is not clear to me, really, how they accomplished this


Once again, the Polybian method gives a good explanation. The people, then ruled by the the aristocracy who after a generation or two began to stain. The people in turn acted their power(that of numbers).

There were two recorded secessions, but I have not read so far why these were effective at bending the patricians to their will.


Simple. The plebs provided the labor force in the populous and if they did not move, nothing did. This is especially true in the Rome of that time considering it was not so slave realiant. Dissatisfied with the political situation(which took a "inherited class") system that did not allow for plebs to attain office but left it to the aristocrats, they took the picket lines and refused to work.

I just don't get it - seems like the patricians could have put down the plebeians forcefully whenever they seemed to be getting too big for their britches.


The soldiers were largely plebs too. They would be sentimental to their family members or friends.

Edited by Theodore Felix
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 31-Jan-2006 at 03:15
Read Engels: "Family, Private Property and the State". He deals with the political structures of tribes and early city-states.

The Senate, as it's name implies means council of elders and is in origin a tribal element. The Senate is very influential, though the decissory power is in the comitiae: the assembly of the people/warriors.

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  Quote Mosquito Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2006 at 17:47

Originally posted by Maju

Read Engels: "Family, Private Property and the State". He deals with the political structures of tribes and early city-states.

Do not belive those who say that communist works will explain history. Altough i agree that to some extent the class war had influence on history but it is not all about it. Instead of Engels better read Geza Alfoldy and Mommsen.

BTW i started to write about it but didnt had time to finish yet.

http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4616& ; ;PN=1&TPN=1



Edited by Mosquito
"I am a pure-blooded Polish nobleman, without a single drop of bad blood, certainly not German blood" - Friedrich Nietzsche
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