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Indian and Chinese Entrepreneurship?

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flyingzone View Drop Down
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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Indian and Chinese Entrepreneurship?
    Posted: 11-Jan-2006 at 23:34

It is a well-known fact that Chinese minorities play a domineering role in the economy of many Southeast Asian countries. For instance, in Indonesia, the Chinese minority, just 5% of the Indonesian population, owned an estimated four-fifth of the capital in the country. People from India did the same thing in much of East Africa and in Fiji. (Go to the thread entitled "Indians of East and South Africa" http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7929& ;PN=1

Both Indian and Chinese immigrants typically entered their host countries poor and then prospered, creating whole industries in the process.

A lot of commentators find that strange and are yet to find a reasonable explanation for that. This phenomenon is made even ironic in that both India and China were (and to a certain extent still are) very poor countries, so if some sociobiologists argue that there are some "entrepreuneur" genes in the Indians and the Chinese, they would find that irony difficult to explain.

A further irony to the "entrepreneurship" argument is that it has, once again, been used to explain the recent unprecedented economic growth in both countries.

It seems to me that this "entrepreneurship" argument is used just whenever it's convenient. The reality may be that there is simply no straightforward explanation or one single theory for (1) the economic success of Indian and Chinese immigrants overseas; (2) the poor economic peformance of both India and China until recently; and (3) the two countries' recent spectacular economic growth.

However, as a social scientist, I find the lack of any theoretical explanation very dissatisfying. Can anyone help?

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 00:34

I think the initial culture of the countries have a lot to do with it. While the Chinese are no better or worse at entrepreneurship than anyone else, in south east asia's case they were moving into countries that had cultures that were in everyway the antitheseis of entrepreneurship, which made the Chinese well ahead of the game.

Malaysia even accepted this as government policy when it introduce the law, no Malay of ethnic Chnese origin could start a business unless it was half owned by an ethnic Malay.

Thailand has a greater level of Chinese ownership than Indonesia and the Philipines, if possible.  9/10 of the people in Bangkok and almost 20% of the country are chinese. The Chinese started migrating in the late eighteenth century setting up opium dens. In the 30's when opium was outlawed they turned the opium dens into brothels. Neither existed in Thailand before the Chinese. In the fifties migrations ended with the anti-chinese climate, the Chinese language banned and all families required to adopt Thai surnames.

From the 40's until 1980 Thailand had first a fascist, then a military government. Their was a national curfew 11 (i think) till 1980 and the goverment crushing every inch of free thought. The national education system was rigid learning by rote, with no questions. The single TV channel nationalist properganda. Army, Civil Service and Teachers the upper cast (people sacrificing themselves to serve the public) Business was seen a low class.

Thai culture can be summed up as anything to avoid any kind of conflict. They have a term called Greng Jai, it's rather like the Geisha trait of anticipating the man's needs before he has to tell you. With Greng Jai you anticipate any inconvenience, trouble or anoyance anything you do or say to others will cause, then don't do it. Basically you spend your entire life tip toeing on daisies around others. The Weakest Link was quickly banned in Thailand because the host criticised the contestants for faliure. In business it is the manager's job to cover up and never confront his employees faliure, it the Manager's boss job not to ask questions about this. Thai culture is centred entirely around cooperation and a belief generosity to others.

Then in 1980 the Thai goverment decided to pull the totalitarian rug out from under the countries feet and say sink or swim in the global market. In one corner you had the Thais, great at doing as they're told, not asking questions, waiving the flag and not saying boo to a goose. In the other corner you've got a group of chinese whoremongers, wideboys, wheeler dealers running every illegal gig in the city and a few legals one.

And there you have Thailand today. In Bangkok the Chinese driving the 3rd most Mercedes in the world after Germany and the US and 10 miles out of the city the Thais living in wooden huts without electricity dreaming of oneday going to the city a getting a job in a chinese factory.



Edited by Paul
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  Quote sinosword Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 21:28

money doesn't fall from the sky. you have to work for it. malay is too lazy generally. as for china is poor. it's a communist country, what do you expect? look those chinese society which are not communist, such as hongkong taiwan singapore, are not poor.

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  Quote flyingzone Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 21:41
Originally posted by sinosword

malay is too lazy generally.

Wow!!!! I find this comment blatantly racist . How can you call a whole ethnic group "lazy"?!?

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 22:30
I like to explain all relative sucess in terms of resource and geography, I still can here.  China and India are the two most important centers of human culture and power in all of world history.  Despite the recent breif period of western dominance they have integrated experience with being good at running things.  That remains to the present day..as they are now emerging as the world powers of the future.
"the people are nothing but a great beast...
I have learned to hold popular opinion of no value."
-Alexander Hamilton
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  Quote Jiangji Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Jan-2006 at 22:39
Originally posted by flyingzone

Originally posted by sinosword

malay is too lazy generally.

Wow!!!! I find this comment blatantly racist . How can you call a whole ethnic group "lazy"?!?

Well, to say all malay is lazy is quite misleading. However, I would says malay are less hardworking because of government policy. Government hugely favor the malays by giving many special treatment. This special treatment have negative effect and even Dr mahatir believe that the government policy has destroy the malay instead of helping them.

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  Quote sedamoun Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Jan-2006 at 05:38

When i was working in Central Africa i was surprised to see so many chinese guys just walking around in the markets (in Pointe Noire, Douala and Libreville).

I had always known that the Lebanese were running many sub saharian markets (ex-french colonies) and that this was quite a ressource for Lebanon (as they ship all their whelth home).

I was told by the local engineers that worked with me that the Chinese were taking over the whole retail (detail) market (textiles, plastics...). That's when it hit me that these guys were expanding... FAST !!!

I think the Chinese have a quite the taste for reatil business, making small margins (often because of the bad quality) but selling enormous amounts.

India is one of the world's biggest grey-matter reserve. India has in fact one of the world's highest educated workforce (the problem is that there are not enough companies to employ them in their field, so many end up working in back offices that Western firms outsource over there). The best indians export themselfs overseas (England, Usa, Canada...).

Cheers.

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  Quote Sino Defender Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2006 at 08:45
Originally posted by flyingzone

It is a well-known fact that Chinese minorities play a domineering role in the economy of many Southeast Asian countries. For instance, in Indonesia, the Chinese minority, just 5% of the Indonesian population, owned an estimated four-fifth of the capital in the country. People from India did the same thing in much of East Africa and in Fiji. (Go to the thread entitled "Indians of East and South Africa" http://www.allempires.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7929& ; ;PN=1

Both Indian and Chinese immigrants typically entered their host countries poor and then prospered, creating whole industries in the process.

A lot of commentators find that strange and are yet to find a reasonable explanation for that. This phenomenon is made even ironic in that both India and China were (and to a certain extent still are) very poor countries, so if some sociobiologists argue that there are some "entrepreuneur" genes in the Indians and the Chinese, they would find that irony difficult to explain.

A further irony to the "entrepreneurship" argument is that it has, once again, been used to explain the recent unprecedented economic growth in both countries.

It seems to me that this "entrepreneurship" argument is used just whenever it's convenient. The reality may be that there is simply no straightforward explanation or one single theory for (1) the economic success of Indian and Chinese immigrants overseas; (2) the poor economic peformance of both India and China until recently; and (3) the two countries' recent spectacular economic growth.

However, as a social scientist, I find the lack of any theoretical explanation very dissatisfying. Can anyone help?

Mainland China has been poor in recent decades because of social turmoil, foreign invasion, and political instability. With the capitalization of the economy, China will soon prosper, and it is what everyone sees today. It's not because of the people, but the politics that's been keeping China from achieving its past glory. If you look at Hong Kong, Taiwan, and Singapore, they became prosperous in less than few decades with a GDP per capita higher (HK) or comparable (Singapore and Taiwan) to Western Europe with virtually no natural resources.

I apologize if this offends anyone, but in my opinion, most of the Chinese are, in fact, in many ways, better with number than a lot of people. Furthermore, some say the Chinese are the people who love money the most in the world. I think that's true, too. Look at Communism, for less than 2 and a half decade, it turned into pure Capitalism. Today's China, despite its "Socialist" government, its economy is one of the most Capitalist in the world with the big men, big bussiness, rich controlling most of the power in society.

To the Chinese, money doesn't mean happiness, but without money, there can be no happiness. Money serves as a requirement for happiness to happen in life. Of course, there are also other variables such as love, girl, woman, sex, health...

"Whoever messes with the heavenly middle kingdom, no matter how far s/he escapes, s/he is to be slaughtered"
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