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Virgen de guadelupe is really Tonantzin

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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Virgen de guadelupe is really Tonantzin
    Posted: 23-Dec-2005 at 00:29

This blew my mind , our mother virgen de gudelupe is Tonantzin. I always knew that their was somthing odd about it because the virgen of gudelupes skin is brown like Mexicans and the mother of jesus was white. I believe this story because that Spanish always tried to either kill our beliefs or make it christian style so that we will be christian and not revolt against their rule. hopefully my people could see through the lies and get out of the "matrix" the spanish have put us in.

This is the source of this article- www.Mexicauprising.net

 

The Virgin of Guadalupe is Really Tonantzin

In 1531, ten years after the Caucasion Invasion an encounter took place on the Hill of Tepeyac. A man whom the Spaniards called Juan Diego (He had a nahuatl name that the priests didn't record; Juan Diego was the name given to him after his conversion.) was worshipping our earth mother Tonantzin at an ancient shrine on top of Tepeyac hill. It is at this point that Tonantzin appeared to Diego and speaking in nahuatl, gave him a message to tell our people: she said that she had not forgotten our people and that she would always watch over us. Diego immediately went to his village and told everyone about the message but nobody believed him. Diego went back several times and repeatedly saw Tonantzin but he was unsuccessful in convincing the villagers of what he saw. The villagers then went to the hill with him to see her, but she did not appear. Diego now frustrated requested that Tonantzin provide him with evidence of her presence so that he may convince the villagers. Tonantzin then wrought a miracle: Diego looked down and saw roses in full bloom at her feet. The area in which the roses grew was a sterile area where only desert plants could grow. Diego then took the roses in his cloak and presented them to the villagers and when the roses fell, the image of Tonantzin appeared on his cloak. The villagers were then convinced of the validity of the message and they immediately traveled to Tepeyac hill to thank Tonantzin. The priests quickly heard of this and they devised a plan to trick our people. They saw that our people were devoutly making pilgrimages to the site and they announced that the image was not Tonantzin at all, instead they said it was the Virgin Mary. It was at this time that our resistance was strongest and the priests could not effectively convert us to catholicism and this is just what the priests needed to trick us. The priests immediately destroyed the shrine to Tonantzin and built in its place a church dedicated to the Virgin Mary. Bernardino de Sahagun had this to say of the new church:

"Now that the Church of Our Lady of Guadalupe has been built
there, they call her Tonantzin too...the term refers..to that ancient
Tonantzin and this state of affairs should be remedied, because
the proper name of the Mother of God is not Tonantzin, but Dios.
It seems to be a satanic device to mask idolatry...and they come
from far away to visit that Tonantzin, as much as before; a devotion
which is also suspect because there are many churches of Our
Lady everywhere and they do not go to them; and they come from
faraway lands to this Tonantzin as of old." (Bernardino de Sahagun,
Historia general de las cosas de nueva espana I, lib 6)


As you can see by Sahagun's testimony, we worshipped Tonantzin and not the Virgin Mary. The Spaniards began placing churches on top of all of our shrines in a desperate attempt to convert us. In our holy city of Cholula for example our people had built 365 shrines for every day of the year. The Spaniards tore them down and now there are churches in their place (in most cases, they just built their churches directly on top of our shrines.) After hundreds of years of this, our people were slowly converted as there were hardly any shrines left. And as we made pilgrimages to these shrines as we had for thousands of years, we found ouselves no longer praying toTonantzin but to the Virgin Mary.

My own opinion on this article.

And their you have it, the spanish version of the story is that she just appeared to tell diego that they need to build a church in her name. Wow this spanish cover up is so stupid she didnt appear so that we may build a church she appeared so that she could let us the Mexicans know that she had not forgotton us and that she would always watch over us because it was 1531 10 years after the fall of Mexico and we were going through harsh rule over the Spaniards who have made us slaves.



Edited by ITZOCELOTL
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  Quote Cuauhtemoc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 06:46
I read this article on Tonantzin with a great deal of interest, as I had earlier read your article on ometeoism which is defined as a cosmic energy, a living dual energy, and not the gods the Spaniards said we worhiped in any shape or form. Having said that it seems to me that your trying to have it both ways, Itzocelotl. Clearly in this article you believe Juan Deigo saw the brown skinned "goddes" Tonantzin. Indeed it was a shrine to that goddess. However it has always been a strategy of Catholics and other religions to build churches or mosques over what was regarded as holy by other conquered peoples. The former Orthodox church, Hagia Sophia is now a mosque in Istanbul! One could easily conclude that the priest put Juan Deigo up to this and payed him off! Juan could have been given a better life for his co-operation. I say these things to show other interpretations are valid as explanations. The point is the appearance is an obvious fallacy. I don't believe that our people would be so gullible as to be tricked to accept Tonantzin as the supposed appearance of the Virgin Mary! We have to accept reality that our people embraced a false religion because they came to believe it was superior because of there defeat. Their gods failed them! Neither Tonantzin or the Virgin who is in her grave appeared on Tepeyac. Additionally Tonantzin did forget her devoted Azteca and has forgotten the people of Mexico! Sadly the words of Tonantzin, in 1531 were no comfort to our ancestors, her devoted Azteca, who endured enslavement for centuries, and even to this day her words mean nothing as the corruption of Mexico continues to take advantage of la raza. Her words mean nothing for they were never uttered. She like Ce Acatl has not, and cannot, and will not, keep her promise to the deluded and most probably used Juan Deigo. Such strategies were used by the Roman emperor Constantine to convert his people to catholism by adopting December 25 as the birthday of Jesus, a holy day devoted to the "sun god." The supposed ascension of Mary into heaven was declared by the false catholic church, I am guessing between 1600 to 1900 years after her lifetime! As you see Itzocelotl it is no better to embrace ometeoism then to embrace the false manmade religion of catholicm. To be Mexican is NOT necessary to be catholic! To be Mexican one does not have to embrace ometeoism either. I reject both that cause our people to do obviously useless means of devotion, whether they be human sacrifice, or walking on ones knees for miles to a church door! I Cuauhtemoc am neither catholic nor ometeo and I am proud of being a Mexica! Mexica dealing with modern times, surviving, uplifting who we are! There is no need to ressurect this religion. We must be reasonable and logical about who we are. As I close this post, I share your passion, but I think we cannot look to all that is in our past, but apply those things that give pride in who we are and will help us in the world we face now. We must raise our heads as people proud of who we are in the world today. www.bible.ca

Edited by Cuauhtemoc
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2006 at 07:14
Well, Mary wasn't "white," she was Arab or East African in stock, so she'd most likely have brown skin anyway. But, I see what you were saying, as most Euros believe whole-heartedly that Jesus and Mary were both white

That's interesting, though.


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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Feb-2006 at 20:04
Well what I mean is native america, indigenous, or like the europeans say "indian". Clearly you can find the difference in the appearence of an Arab and a Native american.
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  Quote Ometeoist Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Feb-2006 at 23:12

Cuauhtemoc, I know this forum is about debate but we shouldnt go at eachother saying our religion is lies. As much as I hate what the Spaniards did I wouldnt tell one that Chrisianity is wrong and full of lies. It is called respect. Also Jesus did not save Mexico either so dont be so ignorant Cuauhtemoc. The Ometeotl is somthing that lives in all things on earth and will always be here. Tonantzin is the spirit of earth and is the mother Mexico. The Spaniards changed the whole story around so that we would not revolt against Spain or start being Ometeoist again. They would murder you if you kept on saying it was Tonantzin. So our people stood down knowing that it would cost them their lives and the lives of their families. The ones that fled and continued worshiping Tonantzin and the Ometeotl today live in poor villages and are labled as inferior "indians" by the Spanish euro government of Mexico. My grandpa told me that his great great great grandpa lived in those times and said he made a shrine in his village when he heard about the prophet Cuauhtlatoa Juan  diego. I dont remember what the village was called but he said that the local preist came with soldiers and destroyed it and murdered my great great great grandpa in cold blood in secret. The rest I dont know it was so long ago but my grandapas name of the 1300's was Pedro Fernandez. He truly is honored in my heart.

Tlazohcamati, Mexico tiahui

and may Tonantzin be with you, if you are Ometeoist

"Life is like a snake, a snake crawling out of its own dead skin like a dream"
"ancient Mexican saying"
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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Feb-2006 at 21:41

Zimon! Ometeoist Monk....... I wish I could know the names of my anscetors that far back in time.

May the Ometeotl be with you................. Mexico Tiahui!

Itzocelotl-"Obsidian Jaguar"

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Feb-2006 at 12:07
I don't want to offend people's religious feelings, but the Virgin of Guadalupe is a big hoax. It has been proven that (a.o.) the image has been painted (by a human hand). Infrared photographs show it has been painted with a brush, and the one who painted it even used outlines which are of course not needed if it's made by something divine and suggests that it is a copy of an earlier painting.

In 1556 a formal survey already made clear that it was an ordinary painting, and they even found out the name of the painter, a Nahua indian called Marcos.


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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Feb-2006 at 18:17

I never really believed that the image appered like that but it is just an image to represent the mother spirit of our mother earth.

I do believe that somthing spiritual came to the prophet Cuauhtlatoa-juan diego. The image will always searve as the Image of the spirit of our mother earth in Ometeoism religion.

May Toanantzin be with you.

Itzocelotl-"obsidian jaguar"

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 15:53
Another bubble burst.

The Virgen de Guadalupe, the image, is Spanish. There is a shrine to the "virgen morena" in Spain. I made a huge ass of myself defending its Mexicanity to my father-in-law, who politely agreed with me.


Now, you are right on target with Guadalupe being Tonantzin in Mexico. Tepeyac was the place where Tonantzin was worshiped. The evangelists monks probably adopted the image of Guadalupe as a quick Christian stand-in, while they taught them the right religion.

The myth came to life 50 to 100 years after the time it was supposed to have taken place. It was key in the development of the Mexican identity as nationality.
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  Quote ITZOCELOTL Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 21:11

doesnt matter whoever painted it whether it was art from Spain, Portugal whatever, the image will forever stand for the spirit of earth, mother nature, mother earth, or atleast mother of Mexico because not all people are ometeoist. Tonantzin has always been apart of Mexican religion all the way back to Teotihuacan maybe even the Olmecs and today she still is!

Huego str are you Mexican?

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  Quote Ometeoist Monk Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 02-Mar-2006 at 21:37

yea Tonantzin shall forever be Mexicos mother and the spirit of our land.

 Tonantzin ohuicaquixtia Mexico!-"Tonantzin save Mexico!"

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 05-Mar-2006 at 12:29
Yes, I am Mexican.
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  Quote edgewaters Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Mar-2006 at 16:46
Originally posted by Cuauhtemoc

However it has always been a strategy of Catholics and other religions to build churches or mosques over what was regarded as holy by other conquered peoples.


Not only sites - Christianity, and in particular Catholicism, borrows much more than sites from previous religions. The story of Jesus himself contains many, many elements found in previous religions. Judaism itself, even, wasn't always monotheistic but evolved from a scattered mix of influences in the Near East and still bears trace remnants of Mesopotamian and Egyptian mythologies. In its Catholic form, this religion superimposed itself onto earlier religions everywhere it spread from its very beginning - the iconography of the divine is often Greco-Roman, with cherubic angels, a heaven of white marble and Ionic pillars, and a deity that's sometimes thought of as looking alot like a Greek philosopher or Roman senator. Then there's the holidays, which were directly superimposed on top of earlier pagan celebrations. Usually it worked (Christmas and Easter) though traces of their origins often remained (eg trees and eggs). Sometimes it didn't work, like the attempt to replace Halloween with All Saints Day.

Speaking of saints, a number of pagan deities were even directly canonized into the religion - Saint Brigit being a classic example. The system of saints was very important in replacing pagan, pantheistic systems - the deities of these religions, like the saints, had their patronages as their most important quality, and it was easy to superimpose this idea onto a pagan peoples who were often simply seeking a patron for their craft or area.

I strongly doubt that this process wouldn't have continued as Christianity spread beyond Europe. It was one of the great strengths of the religion, its ability to superimpose, assimilate, and replace, while retaining enough elements that it could be incorporated without changing the major celebrations or sacred sites, and even offered replacement patrons. It was part of the key to its global success, that, and its core story which features a more powerful and fearsome "magic" (from a pagan perspective) than the most fearsome of pagan deities. The power behind the story of, say, Huitzilopochtli could not compare. To pagans, the essential elements of the Christian story would come across that they were eating the body of a powerful, undead sorcerer who would one day come to destroy the world but spare those who had shared his power.

Huitzilopochtli seems tame by comparison.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 12:01
Yes!!! It is Tonantzin!
 
Actually, Catholic priests in the Americas usually resorted to syncretism to spread the faith. So it doesn't surprise me at all.
 
On the other hand it could also be interpreted the other way around: that Tonantzin was actually the Virgin of Guadaloupe.
By the way, the Virgin of Guadaloupe came from Spain, but it was in Mexico were its cult fluorished
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 13:55
The conversion of the Meso Americans to Catholic Christianity is more complex than this site suggested.  Most converts were willing and were influenced by the following factors:
 
-The Spanish link their military victories over the Aztecs with their Catholic Christian religion. 
 
- The indigenous Meso American religion had many internal failures including being strongly affiliated with the oppressive Aztecs and the use of human sacrifices as both a matter of religion and political terror.  (Indigenous religion was ready for a fall)
 
-The effectiveness of individual missionaries.  Most early Catholic missionaries were chosen for their intelligence, dedication, and leadership skills (similar to evangelical missionaries today)
 
The result is.... A religion with many profound internal weaknesses is confronted by a new faith associated with unquestionable military prowess that  is presented by skilled missionaries.   A large scale abandonment of the indigenous religion results.
 
The historical irony is that Catholic Christiany later suffers some of the the same fate (though not nearly to the same degree)  when Evangelical Protestant Missionaries arrive in Mexico.  There are many similar factors in each case
- An indigenous church (Catholic) has many interal weaknesses (Shortage of Priests, Shortage forces acceptance of Priests of varying quality, accusations of crimes by some priests, doctrinal changes bring confusion and the impression that Indigenous church is weak and unsure
- Evangelical Christian missionaries arrive.  They are carefully pre-selected for dedication, leadership skills etc. They preach an unchanging theological message from a position of strength.  
-The Missionaries closely link USA's economic victories to the fact that most  Americans are Protestant.   This scores alot of points amongst Mexicans
 
The result, tens of millions of Mexicans convert to Evangelical Christianity.


Edited by Cryptic - 06-May-2007 at 15:05
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 06-May-2007 at 21:20
Yes, I agree that the Mexicans Amerindians, like most Amerindians of Hispanic America, willingly converted to the Catholic faith. In part, because the catholic priest were very skillful.
 
Today the situation is different, though. The Catholic faith decline is part of a more important decline in religiosity in the region. Many  people are Agnostic, Ateists or at least functionally ateistics. Protestant churches are compiting for the people that still has a faith in place, but also Jehova Witness, Mormons, Budists, Hari Krisnas and lots of other religions that have shown in the region in the last generations.
 
What's going to happened in the future? We don't know, but I guess that ateism is increasing and the society is every time more secular.
 
Pinguin
 
 
 
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  Quote Cryptic Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-May-2007 at 19:30
Originally posted by pinguin

 
What's going to happened in the future? We don't know, but I guess that ateism is increasing and the society is every time more secular.
 
I agree, secularism seems unstoppable.  The Islamic nations of the Middle East and perhaps some African nations (both Christian and Islamic) maybe the last strongholds of religion as an instrinsic part of national culture and identity.  And it seems that the trend towards secularization will accelerate in the future. 
 
Voltaire, however, declared approximently 220 years ago that "God is dead".  Yet obvioulsy, he is still alive and well in the minds of believers today.   Who knows, perhaps relion will make a come back in the future.


Edited by Cryptic - 07-May-2007 at 19:31
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  Quote The_Jackal_God Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-May-2007 at 10:21
rofl

plz, whoever it was that claimed that NSdG is a painting, provide a link to those tests and survey of the 1557.

and tell us why the material on which it was "painted" hasn't degraded.

estrada, i wish i was there to help you explain to your father-in-law.

valladolid is in Spain, they named a certain city nueva valladolid. i guess it's spanish too.

wait, transplanting names doesn't efface their native roots.

i "love" this darwinism nonsense in cultural anthropology. If a culture A shares a similiarity w/ culture B, then the younger must have gotten it from the older one. yeah, they use the word "influence" which is about as ambiguous as it gets.
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