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zoroastrianism

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  Quote vespasian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: zoroastrianism
    Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 20:03
Hi everyone. I'm new here, so I hope you will be patient with me.

I have been studying ancient Iran for a while now, and I am curious. In ancient Iran, do you folks feel that Zoroastrianism held as great a sway over the hearts and minds of the people as (for example) Christianity would in the west, or (I would assume) Islam does in Iran now? Just curious. Thanks for any help you can provide.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 11-Dec-2005 at 22:03
Yes, Zoroastrianism did hold a lot of sway over the pre-Islamic Iranians. Thats why it took several hundred years before the majority of Irans population became Muslim. Bukhara, for example, reverted about 7 times to Zoroastrianism everytime the Arab armies left. Even now, most Iranians hold Zoroastrianism to a high esteem, and generally defend it against those who wish to criticize it. 
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  Quote Frederick Roger Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 12-Dec-2005 at 17:24
Christianity is highly influenced by Zoroaastrism, right? Among others, of course...
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  Quote vespasian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 00:58
Interesting...I didn't realize it took so long for Iran to become throughly Islamic. Several centuries...I honestly thought it only took a few years or so.
I've been reading mostly about the early days, Achamenids (sp?) and all that. It would seem I have some reading to do on the Islamic Conquest. Is there any reading on that subject you folks could recommend?
Thanks.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 01:04
The Heritage of Central Asia by Richard N. Frye is a good starter. It takes you all the way up to the point when the Turks began to migrate into Central Asia and deals a lot with the Islamic conversion of Zoroastrians in Iran/Central Asia. 
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  Quote Alborz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 13-Dec-2005 at 17:10
"Who so shall worship Ahura Mazda, divine blessing will be upon him, both while living and when dead" Darius The Great
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2005 at 02:13
A good primary source is the multivolume work by al-Tabari.  It provides most of what we now know about the Islamic conquest of Iran/CA. 
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  Quote vespasian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Dec-2005 at 19:23
Hey, Alborz, thanks for the link. Lots of interesting stuff there. Also, DFront, thank you for the suggestions as well. I work for Barnes & Noble, so I shouldn't have too much trouble finding these, I hope.
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  Quote Miller Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Dec-2005 at 01:04
 

Some Iranians ran away to India when they were given the choice to convert or face persecution that should answer the question on how strong they felt about their religion. As for how Iranians feel about Islam today. You wait for a while to get a correct answer to that the That question is not answerable right now same way you could not have answered how Russians felt about communism in 1984.  Just wait a few years

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  Quote vespasian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Jan-2006 at 13:36
Good point, Miller. The reason I even posted this thread was that I had read (though I do not remember where) that Zoroastrianism had been mostly followed by the ruling and upper classes, with the average Joe on the street not really caring. But given what DFront had said (that it took centuries for Islam to really take hold) I think that assessment was incorrect.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2006 at 23:02

Zarathushtra; the name of
The original name of Zarathushtra, which is also written as Zoroaster, known as Zardasht among the Kurds, is believed to be a compound remark in the Avestan language. The first part zarat stands for "feeble or old" and the last piece of the name hushtra, the same as the modern Kurdish word ushtr or hushtr, means "camel"; thus, Zarathushtra meant "owning old camels or, the person who has old camels".
However, it was commonly supposed that zarat was derived from the Avestan word zaray, which is close to the modern Kurdish word zard means yellow or zerr, which is gold, therefore it was formerly commonly translated as "yellow" or "golden".

You can read the whole text here...

http://www.peyamner.com/article.php?id=33249&lang=englis h

http://www.hewlerglobe.net/pdf/issues_40/13.pdf

 

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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 06:54

Originally posted by vespasian

Hi everyone. I'm new here, so I hope you will be patient with me.

I have been studying ancient Iran for a while now, and I am curious. In ancient Iran, do you folks feel that Zoroastrianism held as great a sway over the hearts and minds of the people as (for example) Christianity would in the west, or (I would assume) Islam does in Iran now? Just curious. Thanks for any help you can provide.

I think it did. Even ignoring the more obvious traces such as the celebration of Norooz and Chaharshambeh-Souri, I would also argue that a form of it is still practiced by the majority of Iranians today. The reason I say this is that Twelver Shi'a islam (official religion of Iran, and largely peculiar to Iran) has been hugely influenced by Zoastrianism - the old ideas have not gone away completely, but influenced the development of their new belief (I recall reading about Christianity in Borneo or somewhere of that ilk and how the indigenous beliefs and practices had been absorbed into a distinctly local flavour of christianity). For example, I would say that the belief in the return of the 12th (hidden) imam Mehdi is a direct descendant from the bellief in the Saoshant (sp?), the saviour of Zoastrianism. This belief in the saviour actually had a massive effect on Judaism, I recall reading a study of old testament texts that showed how the emergence of this saviour figure as an increasingly important figure in Judaism as the religions mixed and Zoastrian influence spread with Persia. A key figure in the evolution of the saviour belief, Daniel, lived in Iran and (someone please correct me if Im wrong) was somehow connected to the Persian court of Darius I. Of course, without this belief, Christianity is a non-starter.

Another very Zoastrian idea that the abrahamic religions (Jud, Christ. & Islam) inherited is heaven (paradise) - before this there was an idea of a very earthly eternal kingdom of isreal as an end goal. Again, Daniel is often cited as an influence here. "Paradise" is apparently derived from the old persian for Garden (this vision of heaven is particularly important in Islam).

Another thing I have less info about is the first holy war (in terms of a war sanctioned by god for which the combatants would be rewarded by God) being a Zoastrian one, I think led by Darius (ok I will try and get some citation for this, the details are hazy, I will try and find who led it, against whom and why, I just remember reading about it). Crusades and "lesser Jihad" have shaped our world. Im aware im on shaky ground here because you can argue that this isnt an idea or concept but a natural evolution side effect of religion, the fight for scarce resources and power mixing, and as such is inherited from Zoastrianism. But anyway, a first is precedent so perhaps worth mentioning.

There are more things that are linked if anyone is interested in looking into it further ("In Search of Zarathustra", forget the author, is quite interesting), if anyone is interested I may try and remember a few more or provide evidence for the above, but just these concepts - Heaven and the idea of a saviour heralding the end of time on earth, have had such monumental importance that without them entering Judaism, and therefore Christianity and Islam, world religion would be unrecognisable.



Edited by Eskandeh
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 07:03
Originally posted by Miller

 

Some Iranians ran away to India when they were given the choice to convert or face persecution that should answer the question on how strong they felt about their religion. As for how Iranians feel about Islam today. You wait for a while to get a correct answer to that the That question is not answerable right now same way you could not have answered how Russians felt about communism in 1984.  Just wait a few years

The "Parsees". Apparently many Indian notables are/were in fact parsee. As neither Muslim nor Hindu, they were used extensively by the British in governance of British India - post-independence history has shown how important this aspect was in keeping the peace and ensuring balance between the two religions. There is still a Parsee community in India today, you can see numerous websites about them, especially match making services!

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 12:35
Thanks for the input and welcome to the forum, Eskandeh.
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  Quote Behi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2006 at 16:38
@Eskandeh:
If you can read Parsi, Check this:
http://ayeen-avesta.blogspot.com/
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 21-Jan-2006 at 09:27
I can read it but my vocabulary isnt good enough to understand
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