Greatest Battles that the Romans Fought

Originally posted by Ikki Because the romans need fight with the parthians, they used massivelly oriental archers with composite bow (that arrive to the west with the parthians...) and horse archers in their main campaigns.

Only their main campaigns in the Near East, which was completely typical - they were hiring natives as auxiliaries. You take what you can get. This was not an empire-wide reform of the Roman legions themselves - auxiliaries are a different thing altogether.

Althougt not was a deep change was very important, and the horse cavalry was used too in other fronts, as Dacia and �frica. That if we talk about the Principate, with the Dominate there are horse cavalry in all fronts.

Well, why do you think that the romans enlisted now, in their elite armies, horse archers and cataphracts? But not like auxiliars, now at the same level as the legions or superior, because now with the elite troops as reserve armies the movility of the cavalry was crucial.

The majority of the horse archers were found in auxiliar palatines - which were indeed elites (as elite as auxiliaries can be, anyway), but most of the auxiliar palatines were made up of Germanic or Gaul infantry. The elite cavalry were organized in the vexillations - in which there were no horse archers.

Well, when i say that the HA were enlisted in the elite armies i was thinking in comitatensis, not foreign allies or secundary role like the limitanei. As you say the majority of these units appear in the Auxilia Palatina (and the limitanei) but they were enlisted too in the Vexillationes of the Comitatensis, according to the Notitia Dignitatum, an example of Comitates army (only cavalry, see "Equites Sagitarii"):

Sub dispositione viri illustris magistri militum per Thracias :
Vexillationes palatinae tres :
     Comites Arcadiaci.
     Comites Honoriaci.
     Equites Theodosiaci iuniores.
Vexillationes comitatenses .... :
     Equites catafractarii Albigenses.
     Equites sagittarii seniores.
     Equites sagittarii iuniores.
     Equites primi Theodosiani.

But in this military question, i have very clear that the rise of archers, heavy and horse cavalry must be ascribed to the eastern influence, to a response of the roman to new enemies i think is impossible refuse this.

Heavy cavalry actually originates from Alexander's Companions, not from the East. It was adopted by the Hellenic armies such as the Parthians, but also by the Romans after their war with Pyrrhus.

If you want think that, right, but the roman army didn't take superheavy cataphracts until the middle of the II century (sarmathian influence), and under the influence of the sassanid army the Catafracta become the core unit of the army.

Archers and horse cavalry never formed a signifigant element of Roman doctrine, except as native auxiliaries - and in this they aren't any more notable than any of the other native auxiliaries, and certainly not as numerous. It wasn't something that the Romans themselves adopted. Clearly they are an Eastern phenomenon, but they didn't cause any sort of "RMA" (revolution in military affairs) for the Romans' own forces.

That isn't true, if you think about the changes in the later roman empire you will see that the arrival of Heavy Cavalry, Horse archers and oriental foot archers provoked a great revolution in the roman way of war that can be see in the byzantine armies, the pinacle of this change. Althougt  during the early empire this units was mainly in the eastern front we can say, if we follow the evolution of the roman army, that they were in the vanguard of the roman warfare.

bye


Edited by Ikki

I understand that i overestimated the initial shock of the parthians in the roman way of war, but the eastern influence can't be limited to the eastern roman empire. First because at the III century, when the revolutionary Cataphracts units was extended the roman army was one and only one (eee ok excluded palmyriens and gauls ) and because in the V century the western army was too an army where the most important units was the heavy cavalry, with many horse archers (the units under the command of the Magister Equitum of the West):

VI. Insignia viri illustris magistri equitum.

Sub dispositione viri illustris comitis et magistri equitum praesentalis :
     Vexillationes palatinae decem :
     Comites seniores.
     Equites promoti seniores.
     Equites brachiati seniores.
     Equites brachiati iuniores.
     Equites Batavi seniores.
     Equites cornuti seniores.
     Equites cornuti iuniores.
     Comites Alani.
     Equites Batavi iuniores.
     Equites constantes Valentinianenses seniores.
     Vexillationes comitatenses..... :
     Equites armigeri.
     Equites primi Gallicani.
     Equites octavo Dalmatae.
     Equites Dalmatae Passerentiaci.
     Equites Mauri alites.
     Equites Honoriani Taifali iuniores.
     Equites Honoriani seniores.
     Equites Mauri feroces.
     Equites Constantiani felices.
     Equites scutarii.
     Equites stablesiani Africani.
     Equites Marcomanni.
     Equites armigeri seiores.
     Equites sagittarii clibanarii.
     Equites sagittarii Parthi seniores.
     Equites primo sagittarii.
     Equites secundo sagittarii.
     Equites tertio sagittarii.
     Equites quarto sagittarii.
     Equites sagittarii Parthi iuniores.
     Equites cetrati seniores.
     Comites iuniores.
     Equites promoti iuniores.
     Equites sagittarii iuniores.
     Equites cetrati iuniores.
     Equites Honoriani iuniores.
     Equites armigeri iuniores.
     Equites secundi scutarii iuniores.
     Equites stablesiani Italiciani.
     Equites sagittarii Cordueni.
     Equites sagittarii seniores.
     Cuneus equitum promotorum.
Officium suprascriptae magisteriae potestatis :
     Princeps.
     Numerarius.
     Primiscrinius.
     Commentariensis.
     Adiutor.
     Regerendarius.
     Exceptores et reliqui apparitores

Althougt the romans say that if was possible the javelin shoud be leave and the composite bow adopted (i can get the sources errgg) in fact you was correct when said that the archers and the HA never displaced to the others auxiliars (at least before VI century).


Edited by Ikki