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Ayatollahs have Neo-Cons to thank for Iraq

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Ayatollahs have Neo-Cons to thank for Iraq
    Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 07:31
Middle East
     Aug 27, 2005
Iran thrives on the neo-con dream
By Jim Lobe

WASHINGTON - Anyone who still believes that the US neo-conservatives who led the drive to war in Iraq are diabolically clever, geostrategic masterminds should now consider Iran's vastly improved position vis-a-vis its US-occupied neighbor.

Not only did Washington knock off Tehran's arch-foe, Saddam Hussein, as well as the anti-Iranian Taliban in Afghanistan, but, with the near completion of a new constitution that is likely to guarantee a weak central government and substantial autonomy to much of the Shi'ite south, it also appears that Iran's influence in Iraq - already on the rise after last spring's inauguration of a pro-Iranian interim government - is set to grow further.

"The new constitution will strengthen the hand of the provincial forces in the south, which are pro-Iranian," according to University of Michigan Iraq expert Juan Cole, who notes that the state structure authorized by the draft charter would amount more to a confederation than a federal system.

Moreover, Cole told Inter Press Service, the constitutional ban on any law that contravenes Islamic law will likely give Shi'ite clerics significant power over the state, moving Iraq much closer to the Iranian model.

"While there's no clerical dictator at the head of government as in Iran, if you had five ayatollahs on the Supreme Court who were striking down laws because they contravened Islam, that's pretty close to the Iranian system," he said.

In a recent colloquium for The Nation magazine, Shibley Telhami, a Middle East specialist at the Brookings Institution, noted, "No one in Washington would have imagined that with all the human and financial costs of the war, the United States would find itself supporting a government ... [with] close ties to Iran and that would conclude a military agreement with Tehran for the training of Iraq forces, even as nearly 140,000 US troops remained on Iraq soil."

This, indeed, was not how it was supposed to turn out for neo-conservatives who had argued that the gratitude of Iraqis for their "liberation" from Saddam would result in the installation of a secular, pro-Western government that would permit its territory to be used for US military bases as yet another pressure point - or possible launching pad - against an increasingly beleaguered and unpopular Islamic republic (and Syria, too) next door.

When US troops, however, were not in fact greeted in Iraq with the "flowers and sweets" that they predicted, and an unexpected Sunni insurgency began to seriously challenge the occupation, neo-conservatives were unfazed.

By empowering the majority Shi'ites through elections, they argued, the US would create a democratic model that would prove irresistible for the increasingly disillusioned Iranian masses who - with political and possibly paramilitary support from the US - would rise up and overthrow the theocracy.

"Such a government supported by Iraq's Shi'ite establishment is a dagger aimed at Tehran's clerical dictatorship," argued the neo-conservatives' top Iran expert, Reuel Marc Gerecht of the American Enterprise Institute, in a Wall Street Journal column in December before the January 30 Iraq elections brought to power the Ibrahim Jaafari government.

But while Gerecht was confidently predicting that a Shi'ite government in Baghdad and Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in Najaf would ring the death knell of the mullahs in Tehran, other analysts saw an altogether different scenario.

"The real long-term geopolitical winner of the 'war on terror' could be Iran," concluded a September 2004 report by the Royal Institute of International Affairs, Britain's most influential foreign policy think-tank.

"The Iranians have so much control over what happens in Iraq," one of the authors, Gareth Stansfield, told USA Today then. "The United States is only beginning to realize this."

Contrary to Gerecht's predictions that influence, if not control, has only strengthened since the January elections, which were won by the Shi'ite coalition headed by Jafaari's Da'wa party and, most especially, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq (SCIRI). In addition to getting the most votes in the federal election, it swept nine out of the 11 provinces, including Baghdad province, where there are substantial Shi'ite populations.

"In 1982, Ayatollah [Ruhollah] Khomeini created [SCIRI], whose members included Abdul Aziz al-Hakim, the current SCIRI leader and Jaafari, Iraq's current prime minister," Cole told The Nation's colloquium. "Khomeini dreamed of putting them in power in Baghdad. Bush and [Pentagon chief Donald] Rumsfeld have fulfilled that dream."

Since coming to power, these officials broke entirely with the frosty relationship with Iran carried out by the government of transitional prime minister Iyad Allawi and initiated what could only be described as warm, if not, fraternal relations with the Islamic republic.

Accords were struck between the two countries covering military aid and cooperation, major infrastructure projects - including the construction of an oil pipeline that will send Iraqi oil to Iran for refining - an airport in the holy city of Najaf for Iranian pilgrims and other aid programs, including schools, medical clinics and mosques.

Last month's three-day visit by Jaafari to Tehran, where he was warmly received by Iran's top leaders, including its new president, Mahmud Ahmadinejad, and Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini, was capped by a reverential pilgrimage to the tomb of Khomeini in a gesture that could not have been interpreted as a good sign, even by Gerecht and other neo-conservatives.

"It was a love-fest," according to Cole.

And, as noted by a senior US diplomat in the Wall Street Journal last week, the recent audience with Sistani granted to Iran's outgoing foreign minister, Kamal Kharazi, "didn't exactly please us", particularly because the ayatollah, widely considered the single-most influential leader in Iraq today, has refused to meet with any US official since the invasion.

Meanwhile, Iranian intelligence is reported to have so thoroughly penetrated Iraq's security forces and militias - many of whose members were trained by Iran's Revolutionary Guard - that the US military has restricted its own intelligence-sharing practices with its Iraqi charges, according to officials here.

Indeed, as acknowledged by Gerecht, many Iraqi government leaders had lived for years, in some cases decades, in Iran and been supported there by the government. Even Jalal Talabani, the Kurdish president in the government, was dependent to a great extent on Iranian support during Saddam's reign.

While Cole does not entirely discount Gerecht's thesis that a Shi'ite-led government in Baghdad, operating under the influence of Sistani's quietest views of Islam's relationship to the state, could eventually act as a counter-model to Tehran and thus undermine support for the clerical regime, he doesn't rule out that the Iranians, who have shown a growing willingness to confront the US since January's elections, have the neo-conservatives to thank for their good fortune so far.

(Inter Press Service)

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/GH27Ak01.html



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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 10:28
Western powers also supported or caused Hitler's ascenssion, and Franco's and Mussolini's... what are you surprised of? Destroying a laicist regime that served to balance fundametalist Jews, Shias and Sunnis was throwing bricks to the western roof. But guess that in the very depth fundamentalist of all faiths understand well each other, anyhow. Only laicism and laicists ideologies (like socialism, Arab nationalism, internationalism) are loosing here.

I think that Bush will give Iraq to the ayatollahs because he wants to invade Venezuela before all Latin America gets out of US control.

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 12:22
What if there is a Shia Anschloss when the Americans leave?
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 13:11

If I am considered a Neo-Con because I have strictly Conservative views (which I think are different than the so-called "conservative" opinions that Republicans hold), then so be it, but I don't want any of the ayatollahs' thanks! 

As I have said before, I totally disagree with how the war and the occupation is being managed.  I think Bush should have concentrated on Afghanistan in the first place, since that is where the rats' nest is (was, perhaps).  With his historically unperceptive motive of establishing democracy and freedom in the Near East, the President might have inadvertantly created a new Persian Empire.  He removed Saddam Hussein from in between the Shiite groups in Iraq and Iran; now they are close to joining forces against the US in Iraq--hence the formation of a new Persia.

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  Quote Shahanshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 13:43

what ever the ayatollahs are, they are better than monkey bush and his terrorist neoconservative masters.

even if satan was ruling my nation, i would never bow down to america or any other nation for help!

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  Quote Zagros Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 14:15
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

If I am considered a Neo-Con because I have strictly Conservative views (which I think are different than the so-called "conservative" opinions that Republicans hold), then so be it, but I don't want any of the ayatollahs' thanks! 

As I have said before, I totally disagree with how the war and the occupation is being managed.  I think Bush should have concentrated on Afghanistan in the first place, since that is where the rats' nest is (was, perhaps).  With his historically unperceptive motive of establishing democracy and freedom in the Near East, the President might have inadvertantly created a new Persian Empire.  He removed Saddam Hussein from in between the Shiite groups in Iraq and Iran; now they are close to joining forces against the US in Iraq--hence the formation of a new Persia.

Na, you're just a real conservative - Neo-Cons aren't real conservatives, they are jumped up imperialist idiots like Rumsfeld etc who take the guise of conservatism and cloak themselves in false religious morals to fool a certain large portion of the electorate into endorsing them. 

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 14:21
Indeed, neo cons have nothing to do with real conservatism.  Also I agree with the article.  The reason I opposed the Iraq war was always on strategic grounds, and these are some of the reasons why. 
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 14:51
Originally posted by Zagros

What if there is a Shia Anschloss when the Americans leave?


I'm sure it will happen (not a mere annexation but an alliance). By destroying Saddam the USA and Israel have given Iraq to the Iran of the ayatollahs. With Syria already sympathetic with Iran (up to a point and forced by circumstances) the revolutionary guards will soon be at the doors of Israel. Interesting phenomenon... but not of my like, as my favorite players in the Near East scenario, Palestines and Kurds will be (again) sidelined by such powerful forces.

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  Quote Seko Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 16:37

What seems wierd is that with American interventionism in Iraq we are seeing a continuation of the great game being played out at the expense the local inhabitants and neighboring countries. No matter what our opinions are on starting the war in the first place, we have stirred up the pot.

If this were a game of chess the locals would be the pawns, the neighboring countries are the rooks - just watching and waiting, and the US is the King. Throw in a few knights from the 'coalition of the willing' and we've got ourselves a game. (France used their 'En passant'). Who will be the winner? Who knows? The US threw out the time clock. Oh!Let's not forget about the insurgents, they are too impatient for chess. They would rather play Risk.

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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 17:00
Originally posted by Byzantine Emperor

If I am considered a Neo-Con because I have strictly Conservative views (which I think are different than the so-called "conservative" opinions that Republicans hold), then so be it, but I don't want any of the ayatollahs' thanks!


As I have said before, I totally disagree with how the war and the occupation is being managed. I think Bush should have concentrated on Afghanistan in the first place, since that is where the rats' nest is (was, perhaps). With his historically unperceptive motive of establishing democracy and freedom in the Near East, the President might have inadvertantly created a new Persian Empire. He removed Saddam Hussein from in between the Shiite groups in Iraq and Iran; now they are close to joining forces against the US in Iraq--hence the formation of a new Persia.



You seem to be an old fashioned American conservative.

I will disagree with those that say that neo-cons are not conservatives at all. Neo-cons are imperialistic conservatives, and these have existed in most European countries and the U.S. for a long time. They were always a minority in the U.S.: think of them as the imperialistic conservative wing. The big difference now is that neo-cons managed to get themselves in a position of power and influence.

Also, neo-con ideas dominate conservative discourse today. Even William F. Buckly, someone who we would expect would want to stick to old conservatism, has advanced many neo-con imperialistic ideas recently.

More alarming to old-time conservatives, is that neo-con conservatism is the variant that many young people are growing up with. If you guys don't organize and put these people back in their place, you will become a minority within the next 20 to 30 years on the right.

My personal opinion is that neo-con is really boomer-con: conservative thought recast in a highly idealistic frame with mesiahnic goals. Conservative boomers were late bloomers, finding their political voice 20 years after their left counterpart did, but they share the same radicalism and grandious egocentrism with them. If anything, they are more dangerous than leftist boomers because their political awakening happened when they were old enough to be in power.

Boomer-cons are in the process of destroying the Republican Party: today, the radical idealistic actions of the party has almost nothing to do with the practical ideas put in the Contract with America 11 years ago.

Byzantine Emperor: you old-fashion conservatives must organize to get these radicals under control. Not only is your party in danger, but the future of the country too.
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  Quote Byzantine Emperor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 20:11

Originally posted by hugoestr

You seem to be an old fashioned American conservative.

Why, thank you!   Yes, this is the "good kind."

Originally posted by hugoestr

I will disagree with those that say that neo-cons are not conservatives at all. 

Oh I do think that "Neo-Cons" have at least an element of real conservatism in them.  I like to think of it as if it was the definition of a lie: the worst lies have an element of truth or half-truth to them.  The same goes with fake conservatives.

Originally posted by hugoestr

Byzantine Emperor: you old-fashion conservatives must organize to get these radicals under control. Not only is your party in danger, but the future of the country too.
 

Yes they are running amok and giving the true American patriots a bad name.  I think what the Republicans (and independent Conservatives) need is a candidate for president in '08 that has no ties with the Bush administration or his band of lock-steppers in Congress.  Conservatives need to start afresh with ideals that return to what is, in essence, "Classical Conservatism."



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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 22:45
American conservatism needs to go back to pre Reagan conservatism.  The Republican party used to be the greatest party in America for quite alot of time.  Great Preisents from Lincoln, TR, Eisenhower, and yes even Nixon were real conservatives and great presidents.  Since Reagan not only have we had massive deficiet spending and economic ravages, but the influx on dangerous evangelicals who ruin the true point of conservitism completely:which is to leave people alone from government interference. They do that and Ill go back to being a part of the GOP.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 27-Aug-2005 at 23:53
Yes "conservatives" have changed a lot. For example, one of the trademarks of conservative thinking was a cynical view that human beings were morally flawed by nature, making communist or anarchist paradises impossible. It used to be the idealistic people on the left who maintained that people could change for the better.

I knew that the conservative side was in danger when I started having debates with modern conservatives in yahoo groups about Bush's plan to create a secular, modern democracy in Iraq.

The traditional roles were reversed: conservatives were telling me that it was possible and we should give a chance to Iraqis to change. I and the other leftist were cynically saying that people who have historically lived in dictatorships can't adopt democracy instantly.

I stepped back and felt dizzy. We leftists we supposed to be the idealistic fools! Was it time to update the quote attributed to the Kaiser: "A 20 year-old-man who is not a neo-conservative, doesn't have a heart, a 30-year-old man who is still a neo-conservative doesn't have a brain."

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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 01:56
That quote that you badly altered is from Churchill actually. He said something like: A 20 year old man who is not a socialist doesn't have a heart, a 40 year old man who is not a conservative doesn't have a brain

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 02:44
And of course I knew all along I never had a heart, a fact I am very proud of!
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 12:44
Originally posted by Maju

That quote that you badly altered is from Churchill actually. He said something like: <span style="font-style: italic;">A 20 year old man who is not a socialist doesn't have a heart, a 40 year old man who is not a conservative doesn't have a brain</span>.


The alteration was intentional And when it was first told to me, it was attributed to the Kaiser, hence my qualifying it with the above word. Otherwised I would have used the phrase "as the Kaiser said." I added this attribution to make the sentence more quaint.

Quotes are an area where I never trust claims for whom said what. There are two reasons for this:

a)The people will attribute a quote to a person who they believe may have said it.

b)Speech writers often use a dictionary of quotes and incorporate these in speeches. The end result is that several famous statemen have in fact said the same line, so confusing arrises.

c)Each country often choses a legendary person and attributes whole quote genres to that person. Let me give you an example.

In the U.S. at least where I live, the Kaiser is the favorite person to attribute cynical political quotes. P.T. Barnum, the show promoter, gets attributed all cynical statements about how the masses, in particular the American masses, are stupid. (There is a sucker born every minute.) This is an honor that H. L. Mencken also enojoys(Never underestimate the intelligence of the American people; the American people get what they deserve, and they get it big and hard--my late father-in-law's favorite)

In Mexico, Napoleon gets the lion's share of quotes with royal airs.(Slow, since I am in a hurry) And recently the taciturn Emiliano Zapata, who never wrote or talked too much in real life, started saying all kind of defiant statements (I rather fight on my feat than be a slave on my knees.)

Now, of all of the quotes above, I only have searched an confirmed one. Mencken actually did say that one can never underestimate the intelligence of the American people, but not in those exact words. It was more nuanced. That line, with those words, is also often attributed to P.T. Barnum, but I haven't confirmed this either.

I am sure that several people here will attribute the several different quotes to different people--in fact, I have already seen this

Thanks Maju for the correction. Do you have a source where he actually wrote that? My personal doubts that Churchill would have said such a thing stems from his being a conservative his entire life.

I will do some research on this quote in any case.
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  Quote hugoestr Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 12:49
At my first attempt to find who said "a young man who is not a socialist no heart blah blah blah, I found the following page just on this quote:


http://www.geocities.com/Athens/5952/unquote.html

The text follows:

My version of gardening is to maintain a web page of quotations.
I had fun trying to ascertain who actually said what I quoted in
the June '00 Penn Central newsletter as:

If a man is not a socialist by the time he is 20, he has no heart.
If he is not a conservative by the time he is 40, he has no brain.
    - Winston Churchill

I failed to find the quote under "socialist", "conservative",
"heart", "man", or "Churchill", in books of quotations like
Bartlett's, Encarta's, Oxford Dictionary of, Home Book of, or
NY Public Library's.


http://retro.co.za/quotes/eli.html says:
Any man who is not... a socialist before he is 40 has no heart.
Any man who is still a socialist after he is 40 has no head.
    - Wendell L. Willkie (quoted by Richard Norton Smith)


http://www.sirius.com/~maya/poetry/republico.html says:
As George Bernard Shaw said,
one who is not a socialist at 20 has no heart,
and one who remains a socialist at 40 has no head.


http://home.planetinternet.be/~smitsr/quotes/b.html says:
The man who is not a socialist at 20 has no heart,
but if he is still a socialist at 40 he has no head.
    - Aristide Briand (1862 - 1932)
[French premier and former socialist]


http://bserver.com/bunker/party.html says:
I think it was William Casey [director of the CIA] who said,
A man who isn't a socialist at 20 has no heart,
and a man who is a socialist at 40 has no head.


http://abedul.pntic.mec.es/colaborativos/quotes/list.html says:
Anyone who is not a socialist at 16 has no heart,
but anyone who still is at 32 has no mind.
    - Woodrow Wilson


http://jerryk.com/dialogue/dialogue960915.htm says:
He who is not a Socialist at 19, has no heart.
He who is still a Socialist at 30, has no brain.
    - Otto Von Bismarck (1815-1896)


http://www.dailyprincetonian.com/Content/1998/12/68/edits/se aton.html says:
Georges Clemenceau [another French Premier and former socialist]
once said something like:
A 20-year-old who is not a Socialist has no heart,
but a 30-year-old who is still a Socialist has no brains.


http://www.bkkpost.samart.co.th/news/BParchive/BP970911/1109 _busi22.html says:
Not to be a Republican at 20 is proof of want of heart;
to be one at 30 is proof of want of head.
    - Franois Guisot (1787-1874)
and:
A man who is not a liberal at 16 has no heart;
a man who is not a conservative at 60 has no head.
    - Benjamin Disraeli (1804-1881)
and:
Not to be a socialist at 20 is proof of want of heart;
to be one at 30 is proof of want of head.
    - Georges Clemenceau (1841-1929)
and:
Any man who is under 30 and is not a Liberal has no heart; and
any man who is over 30 and not a Conservative has no brains.
    - Winston Churchill (1874-1965)

A definitive answer arose in the wonderful book
"Nice Guys Finish Seventh: False Phrases, Spurious Sayings,
and Familiar Misquotations" by Ralph Keyes, 1992. He writes:

"An orphan quote [unattributed quote in search of a home] sometimes
attributed to Georges Clemenceau is:
   Any man who is not a socialist at age 20 has no heart.
   Any man who is still a socialist at age 40 has no head.
The most likely reason is that Bennet Cerf once reported Clemenceau's
response to a visitor's alarm about his son being a communist:
   If he had not become a Communist at 22, I would have disowned him.
   If he is still a Communist at 30, I will do it then.
George Seldes later quoted Lloyd George as having said:
   A young man who isn't a socialist hasn't got a heart;
   an old man who is a socialist hasn't got a head.
The earliest known version of this observation is attributed to
mid-nineteenth century historian and statesman Franois Guizot:
   Not to be a republican at 20 is proof of want of heart;
   to be one at 30 is proof of want of head.
Variations on this theme were later attributed to Disraeli, Shaw,
Churchill, and Bertrand Russell. (I misquoted Churchill to this
effect for years.)"
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  Quote Maju Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Aug-2005 at 15:27
Yeap Wikiquote says clearly that the former sentence is falsely attributed to Churchill. But as true quote from him there is this one:

It is a good thing for an uneducated man to read books of quotations. Bartlett's Familiar Quotations is an admirable work, and I studied it intently. The quotations when engraved upon the memory give you good thoughts. They also make you anxious to read the authors and look for more.



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