Notice: This is the official website of the All Empires History Community (Reg. 10 Feb 2002)

  FAQ FAQ  Forum Search   Register Register  Login Login

Mongols never decide to invade Europe

 Post Reply Post Reply
Author
Domen View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 13-Apr-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Mongols never decide to invade Europe
    Posted: 30-Aug-2013 at 10:26
How Eastern Europe's political map around year 1350 could have looked like if Mongol invasions of the 1200s had not taken place:

Galicia-Volyn:

During the 1230s the Ruthenian Principality of Galicia-Volyn subordinated two other Ruthenian Principalities - Pinsk-Turov and Kiev. In 1240 as the result of the Mongol Invasion, rulers Galicia-Volyn lost control of those lands and also became vassals of the Mongol Empire. With no Mongol invasion this does not take place and rulers of Galicia-Volyn strengthen their reign over those lands, eventually moving their capital city to Kiev and claiming the re-establishment of unified Kievan Rus. Of course there is still a lot to be reunited, but Galicia-Volyn becomes the most important contender. In further perspective, it is possible that Galicia-Volyn would also re-unite some further small principalities, such as Pereyaslav, Chernigov, Smolensk, Polotsk, Novgorod-Seversk and Murom-Ryazan. The only serious rival for Galicia-Volyn would be Vladimir-Suzdal (since Novgorod was not interested in reuniting entire Rus - it was rather busy with strengthening its influences in the Baltic Sea area, as well as eastward expansion into Siberia). Vladimir-Suzdal in reality split into even more small principalities after the Mongol Invasion - but in this alternative scenario, it is possible that it would remain unified. In real history during the 1300s Galicia-Volyn lost its importance and was eventually partitioned between Poland and Lithuania in the middle of that century. In this alternative scenario, Galicia-Volyn is not weakened by the Mongols and is capable of firmly establishing its strength - making itself invulnerable for Polish or Hungarian attacks. Lithuania is also no longer a threat, since instead of expanding into Mongol-devastated areas of Rus, it shares the faith of all other Baltic tribes and becomes eventually conquered by Christian crusaders and incorporated to the Teutonic State.

Lithuania:


Although Mindaugas managed to accomplish the unification of majority of Lithuanian tribes, he and his heirs were not able to rapidly expand into Ruthenian territories, because those lands avoided enormous economic and political devastation which in reality was inflicted by the Mongols. Poland unified and strengthened by the Silesian dynasty of Henrys remained in friendly relations with the Teutonic Order, so it never became Lithuania's ally in her struggle against the crusaders. Novgorod was powerful enough to repulse Teutonic attacks on its own, but not really interested in allying with Pagans. Lithuanian tribes eventually shared the faith of all other Baltic tribes, loosing their independence around the mid-14th century.

Poland:

Henry the Pious doesn't die in the battle of Legnica in 1241, he lives about as long as his father did (73 years) - dying shortly before 1280. In the meantime, his greatest enemy Konrad of Mazovia dies peacefully as he did in reality, in 1247. After the death of Konrad of Mazovia, Henry finishes the re-unification of Poland (in case of Mazovian dukes, they become his vassals) and re-establishes the kingdom. Silesia is not lost by Poland, but instead becomes the most important province of the state - capital city remains, however, in Cracow. Polish forces, including Mazovian dukes - vassals of Henry the Pious and his heirs - continue the conquest of Prussian and then Lithuanian tribes together with the Teutonic Order. Mazovian-Teutonic border is established where it historically was, except the region of Yotvingia (up to the Neman River in the north and east) and southern part of the Land of Lubawa, which go either to Poland directly or to Mazovian vassals. North-eastern and eastern Polish-Teutonic border is along the Neman River. Mazovian dukes during the 14th and 15th centuries continue to die childless like they did in reality, after which their duchies are gradually being incorporated directly to the Crown. Even though not losing Silesia and gaining new lands in the north-east, Poland - despite its re-unification - is not able to expand in south-eastern direction, into the lands of Galicia-Volyn, which becomes the most powerful of all principalities of Rus.

Teutonic Order:

Teutonic Order and Poland would not antagonize each other, instead they would continue to cooperate in conquering Baltic tribes with Polish rulers from the Silesian dynasty of Henrys. Around the mid-14th century, the conquest of Lithuania and other Baltic tribes would be completed. On the other hand, the Teutonic Order would not take possession of Poland's Pomerelia, but would be in possession of Samogitia and major part of modern Lithuania (except the south-western part of modern Lithuania, to the west and south of the Neman River, which was the region of Yotvingia).

Hungary:

Hungary avoids huge devastation and depopulation inflicted by the Mongols and thus is able to firmly control all southern and eastern peripherals of the kingdom, rather than allowing for emergence of semi-independent duchies, principalities, etc. in these areas, as it took place in historical reality between 1240 and 1300. There is no demographic and economic decline in Hungary, which means it can successfully compete with the Kingdom of Bohemia on this field during the 14th century. It is also very likely, that such a stronger Kingdom of Hungary would be able to resist the Turkish expansion into Europe during the late 14th and the 15th centuries, perhaps even prevent the fall of Constantinople or at least delay it.

(1) between Denmark and Pomerania = Duchy of Rugia:

http://postimg.org/image/jxddcgnt3/



What do you think about such scenario and what you would add to this scenario as other probable impacts / effects?


Edited by Domen - 30-Aug-2013 at 10:31
Back to Top
Domen View Drop Down
Pretorian
Pretorian
Avatar

Joined: 13-Apr-2008
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 170
  Quote Domen Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Aug-2013 at 11:05
History of Russia would have been completelly different and Moscow would never be able to unite Russia. And Poland would probably never expand as far to the east as in reality, but would preserve its western territories instead.

A good candidate for reunification of Russia in this alternate reality is Galicia-Volyn (which in real history was dismantled by Poland and Lithuania).

However, Russia unified by Galicia-Volyn would have its capital in Kiev (largest city of Eastern Europe before 1237), not in Moscow.

Such Russia would also be a completely different state than the Muscovite Tsardom that we know from real history.

In reality, Eastern Slavs consist of Russians, Belarussians and Ukrainians. In this scenario, Belarussians and Ukrainians would never emerge. It is possible though, that some new nation, distinct from Southern Russians, would emerge in Northern Russia (Novgorod / Vladimir-Suzdal).
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Dec-2013 at 19:20
Actually the Fomenko movement would deny any Mongol invasion! Their answer is that it was an internal Civil War.

See book four.

Ron
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387
  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2014 at 00:58
Originally posted by opuslola

Actually the Fomenko movement would deny any Mongol invasion! Their answer is that it was an internal Civil War.

See book four.

Ron


And that's precisely why the Fomenko "movement" has no credit. Internal Civil War indeed!!!
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Jan-2014 at 23:22
And just why toyomotor, would you respond so? Have you actually read the Fomenko works? If not, why not? And if you "have not" then you must be ashamed for your postings!

Indeed!, that is your word! LOL

Ron
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387
  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2014 at 00:46
Originally posted by opuslola

And just why toyomotor, would you respond so?Ron

I respond so because, although I haven't bothered to read the Fomenko works, I have read of his tilt at historical revisionism and I think it's rubbish. Your quote about the Mongol Invasions(sic) is a prime example of his stupidity, imho.
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2014 at 01:19
There is no "humble" opinion ever attached to either you or your groups opinion!

Can you ever be "humble?"   LOL

So you just rely upon the words of others? How very sad!

Oh!    

regards, Ron

Edited by opuslola - 23-Jan-2014 at 01:26
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
toyomotor View Drop Down
Baron
Baron

BANNED TROLL

Joined: 25-Dec-2013
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 387
  Quote toyomotor Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2014 at 02:00
Originally posted by opuslola

There is no "humble" opinion ever attached to either you or your groups opinion!
Can you ever be "humble?"   LOL
So you just rely upon the words of others? How very sad!
Oh!    

regards, Ron


Just the scribblings of a humble man!
And all of your posts are as a result of your own, personal ruminations? You don't subscribe to the thoughts of others? How about the Fomenko School of stupidity?
Back to Top
opuslola View Drop Down
Tsar
Tsar
Avatar
suspended

Joined: 23-Sep-2009
Location: Long Beach, MS,
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 4620
  Quote opuslola Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Jan-2014 at 00:55
Originally posted by Domen


How Eastern Europe's political map around year 1350 could have looked like if Mongol invasions of the 1200s had not taken place:

Galicia-Volyn:

During the 1230s the Ruthenian Principality of Galicia-Volyn
subordinated two other Ruthenian Principalities - Pinsk-Turov and Kiev.
In 1240 as the result of the Mongol Invasion, rulers Galicia-Volyn lost
control of those lands and also became vassals of the Mongol Empire.
With no Mongol invasion this does not take place and rulers of
Galicia-Volyn strengthen their reign over those lands, eventually moving
their capital city to Kiev and claiming the re-establishment of unified
Kievan Rus. Of course there is still a lot to be reunited, but
Galicia-Volyn becomes the most important contender. In further
perspective, it is possible that Galicia-Volyn would also re-unite some
further small principalities, such as Pereyaslav, Chernigov, Smolensk,
Polotsk, Novgorod-Seversk and Murom-Ryazan. The only serious rival for
Galicia-Volyn would be Vladimir-Suzdal (since Novgorod was not
interested in reuniting entire Rus - it was rather busy with
strengthening its influences in the Baltic Sea area, as well as eastward
expansion into Siberia). Vladimir-Suzdal in reality split into even
more small principalities after the Mongol Invasion - but in this
alternative scenario, it is possible that it would remain unified. In
real history during the 1300s Galicia-Volyn lost its importance and was
eventually partitioned between Poland and Lithuania in the middle of
that century. In this alternative scenario, Galicia-Volyn is not
weakened by the Mongols and is capable of firmly establishing its
strength - making itself invulnerable for Polish or Hungarian attacks.
Lithuania is also no longer a threat, since instead of expanding into
Mongol-devastated areas of Rus, it shares the faith of all other Baltic
tribes and becomes eventually conquered by Christian crusaders and
incorporated to the Teutonic State.

Lithuania:


Although Mindaugas managed to accomplish the unification of majority of
Lithuanian tribes, he and his heirs were not able to rapidly expand into
Ruthenian territories, because those lands avoided enormous economic
and political devastation which in reality was inflicted by the Mongols.
Poland unified and strengthened by the Silesian dynasty of Henrys
remained in friendly relations with the Teutonic Order, so it never
became Lithuania's ally in her struggle against the crusaders. Novgorod
was powerful enough to repulse Teutonic attacks on its own, but not
really interested in allying with Pagans. Lithuanian tribes eventually
shared the faith of all other Baltic tribes, loosing their independence
around the mid-14th century.

Poland:

Henry the Pious doesn't die in the battle of Legnica in 1241, he lives
about as long as his father did (73 years) - dying shortly before 1280.
In the meantime, his greatest enemy Konrad of Mazovia dies peacefully
as he did in reality, in 1247. After the death of Konrad of Mazovia,
Henry finishes the re-unification of Poland (in case of Mazovian dukes,
they become his vassals) and re-establishes the kingdom. Silesia is
not lost by Poland, but instead becomes the most important province of
the state - capital city remains, however, in Cracow. Polish forces,
including Mazovian dukes - vassals of Henry the Pious and his heirs -
continue the conquest of Prussian and then Lithuanian tribes together
with the Teutonic Order. Mazovian-Teutonic border is established where
it historically was, except the region of Yotvingia (up to the Neman
River in the north and east) and southern part of the Land of Lubawa,
which go either to Poland directly or to Mazovian vassals.
North-eastern and eastern Polish-Teutonic border is along the Neman
River. Mazovian dukes during the 14th and 15th centuries continue to
die childless like they did in reality, after which their duchies are
gradually being incorporated directly to the Crown. Even though not
losing Silesia and gaining new lands in the north-east, Poland -
despite its re-unification - is not able to expand in south-eastern
direction, into the lands of Galicia-Volyn, which becomes the most
powerful of all principalities of Rus.

Teutonic Order:

Teutonic Order and Poland would not antagonize each other, instead they
would continue to cooperate in conquering Baltic tribes with Polish
rulers from the Silesian dynasty of Henrys. Around the mid-14th century,
the conquest of Lithuania and other Baltic tribes would be completed.
On the other hand, the Teutonic Order would not take possession of
Poland's Pomerelia, but would be in possession of Samogitia and major
part of modern Lithuania (except the south-western part of modern
Lithuania, to the west and south of the Neman River, which was the
region of Yotvingia).

Hungary:

Hungary avoids huge devastation and depopulation inflicted by the
Mongols and thus is able to firmly control all southern and eastern
peripherals of the kingdom, rather than allowing for emergence of
semi-independent duchies, principalities, etc. in these areas, as it
took place in historical reality between 1240 and 1300. There is no
demographic and economic decline in Hungary, which means it can
successfully compete with the Kingdom of Bohemia on this field during
the 14th century. It is also very likely, that such a stronger Kingdom
of Hungary would be able to resist the Turkish expansion into Europe
during the late 14th and the 15th centuries, perhaps even prevent the
fall of Constantinople or at least delay it.

(1) between Denmark and Pomerania = Duchy of Rugia:

http://postimg.org/image/jxddcgnt3/

What do you think about such scenario and what you would add to this scenario as other probable impacts / effects?




Following the Fomenko theorem, I would suggest that the area you identify as "Vladimir-Suzdal ", should actually be the area of Novgorod!

There is an entire book devoted mostly to this state.

Ron
http://www.quotationspage.com/subjects/history/
Back to Top
 Post Reply Post Reply

Forum Jump Forum Permissions View Drop Down

Bulletin Board Software by Web Wiz Forums® version 9.56a [Free Express Edition]
Copyright ©2001-2009 Web Wiz

This page was generated in 0.094 seconds.