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Aryans in the Rig Veda

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mojobadshah View Drop Down
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Aryans in the Rig Veda
    Posted: 03-Feb-2013 at 13:24
I would like to write a detailed essay on the ethnonym "Aryan."  This is what wikipedia has to say about the Aryans in the Rig Veda"

The term Arya is used 36 times in 34 hymns in the Rigveda. According to Talageri (2000, The Rig Veda. A Historical Analysis) "the particular Vedic Aryans of the Rigveda were one section among these Purus, who called themselves Bharatas." Thus it is possible, according to Talageri, that at one point Arya did refer to a specific tribe. "Brahma of glory is he to whom both the Aryans and the Dasas belong" (RV 8.8.9).[37]

While the word may ultimately derive from a tribal name, already in the Rigveda it appears as a religious distinction, separating those who sacrifice "properly" from those who do not belong to the historical Vedic religion, presaging the usage in later Hinduism where the term comes to denote religious righteousness or piety. In RV 9.63.5,ârya "noble, pious, righteous" is used as contrasting with árāvan "not liberal, envious, hostile":

índraṃ várdhanto aptúraḥ kṛṇvánto víśvam âryam apaghnánto árāvṇaḥ
"[the Soma-drops], performing every noble work, active, augmenting Indra's strength, driving away the godless ones." (trans. Griffith)
However I checked RV 8.8.9 and it doesn't appear to have anything to do with the Aryans.  This is what RV 8.8.9 says:

The holy singer with his hymns hath called you, Aśvins, hither-ward;
Best Vṛtra-slayers, free from stain, as such bring us felicity.

So the question is where does this verse "Brahma of glory is he to whom both the Aryans and the Dasas belong"  actually come from?  Does it even exist?

My second question is do Hindus generally agree with this interpretation: that the ethnonym Aryan was originally used as a national or tribal designation, but already in the Rig Vedas assumed the meaning of "noble, pious, righteous"?

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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 03-Feb-2013 at 17:11
Rig Vedas is a book written by the descendants of aryans, who lived some where in central asia. Rig Veda is almost like a book of collection of memories of original aryans, being written by their descendants some where in northern south asia (modern Pakistan)

actually in history same thing happened with Mughals and other central asians when they came to India. They missed their original homeland (Central asia) so much that they wrote poetry about places like Kabul, Tashkent, Bukhara in central asia, filled with beautiful memories of those places passed on to them by their ancestors.

All these central asians rulers who came and ruled south asia and India and became rich of it, they actually never loved India, nor they ever called it their own country, they always missed their original homelands in central asia. India and hindus were very different for them, culturally


Edited by balochii - 03-Feb-2013 at 17:18
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  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 07:04
There is no doubt that Arya and Aryan means those who follow the right paths (of sacrificing) and this is mentioned many times in RV. I recently read the 1st and 2nd chapter of RV and plan to read the rest soon as soon as some free times comes from work - I will post the specific Aryan references when I come across it. But I already came across many of these references in the 1st 2 chapters.

Balochi, RV is not written like a collected reminiscence or poetic memories of ancient times - it is written as hymns used for the active sacrifice which people have to do. 

The Vaaaaaaast majority are hymns glorifying the main Gods - for grihya Sutras, these are Varuna And Mitra, for sacrifices before fighting of for sacrifices related to Kingship, these are mainly for Indra and the Nasatyas. Regardless of the nature, Agni is always praised.

They WERE the Aryans and were not descendents of the Aryans - Aryans was what they called themselves. Strictly, Aryan means sacrificing to the right Gods in the right way. It is only the Germans appropriating the word which has resulted in racial nonsense - a very irritating thing.

Right now I am an Aryan, because I follow the rituals of the Veda. I am a Hindu beause all people following Aryan's religion are also Hindus.

Majority of Hindus following rituals which are non- Vedic - like going to temples and praying to non-Vedic Gods - are not Aryans - they are Hindus without being Aryans.

Pakistanis are not Aryans - because they are Muslims. Sikhs are not Aryans either. But both WERE Aryans in the past.

Germans were never Aryans.

If you follow the Rig Vedic rituals from time immemorial in direct line of descent from the original Aryan people, then you are an Aryan.

For all practical purposes, only Brahmin families in India are likely to have this statement being true and are the only true Aryans left. Most other castes were probably Budhist or descended from Budhists and most of them follow "Puja" or icon worship at home and temple worship and hence are not really Aryans, although they have adopted Hinduism and for some rites like marriage they adopt the Vedic rituals.

Most likely Aryans were of Parthian origin i.e. from Turkmenistan region from where they migrated across the Hindu Kush into Peshawar - but there is no mention of this migration in the RV. The RV was written in Peshawar by the Aryans about themselves. And they composed the hymns to chant during sacrifice and Yagnya.

There is very little to none of poetry about ancient better land - in the RV, the land is written about as "here". For all practical purposes, none other than Aryans themselves are written about. Other people and their forts might be allegory to the clouds being the forts of the demons and the Vajra of Indra being the lightning (and thunder) which shatters the fort and sends the deluge down. It probaby refers to the monsoon (in my own mind). 

Again in my own mind, there is little doubt so far - the Aryan homeland is probably Peshawar, Sarasvati is generic for river and might have been the Kabul river and Sindhu is the Indus. There is no memory in RV of a more remote and central Asian homeland (I have read it completely before also and there was none then - I will complete my reading of RV is a couple of weks and post rest of my observations soon).

Ghaznavids and Mughals have definitely written about their reminiscences of their past life in Afghanistan and definitely hated the Indian climate and local Hindus with a vengeance - there is no doubt - there is a lot of literature on this.


Edited by Venkytalks - 14-Feb-2013 at 07:09
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  Quote mojobadshah Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Feb-2013 at 12:13
So the Vedic Indians called themselves "Aryans," to mean but did they ever use the term in the national sense?  In other words they used the term Aryan to designate a person or people that "followed the right path" as you say, but did they have tribes that were called the "Aryans"? 


The word [Arya] is used in the sense of ?We, the Noble?.  When an Iranian, for example, used the word Airya, he undoubtedly meant an Iranian, or even perhaps an Iranian belonging to his own particular tribe or community.

He seems to imply that the term Arya is used only in a spiritual sense, but then he seems to contradict himself when he says:

In the tribal sense, the word is used only in reference to the PUrus:
a. In I.59.2, Agni is said to have been produced by the Gods to be a light unto the Arya. In the sixth verse, it is clear
that the hymn is composed on behalf of the PUrus.
b. In VII.5.6, again, Agni is said to have driven away the Dasyus and brought forth broad light for the Arya. In the
third verse, the deed is said to have been done for the PUrus.
An examination of the family identity of the RSis who use the word Arya clinches the identification of the PUrus (and
particularly the Bharatas) as the Aryas of the Rigveda: of the 34 hymns in which the word is used, 28 hymns are
composed by the Bharatas, ANgirases and VasiSThas.

So how does he know that Arya in I.59.2 and VII.5.6 is used in a national sense and not a spiritual sense?  If the Purus was the name of the tribe then how could the name of the tribe be Aryan?  Wouldn't Arya in VII.5.6 also mean "one who follows the right path?"  How do we know it doesn't?
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  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2013 at 00:18
Originally posted by mojobadshah

So the Vedic Indians called themselves "Aryans," to mean but did they ever use the term in the national sense?  In other words they used the term Aryan to designate a person or people that "followed the right path" as you say, but did they have tribes that were called the "Aryans"? 


The word [Arya] is used in the sense of ?We, the Noble?.  When an Iranian, for example, used the word Airya, he undoubtedly meant an Iranian, or even perhaps an Iranian belonging to his own particular tribe or community.

He seems to imply that the term Arya is used only in a spiritual sense, but then he seems to contradict himself when he says:

In the tribal sense, the word is used only in reference to the PUrus:
a. In I.59.2, Agni is said to have been produced by the Gods to be a light unto the Arya. In the sixth verse, it is clear
that the hymn is composed on behalf of the PUrus.
b. In VII.5.6, again, Agni is said to have driven away the Dasyus and brought forth broad light for the Arya. In the
third verse, the deed is said to have been done for the PUrus.
An examination of the family identity of the RSis who use the word Arya clinches the identification of the PUrus (and
particularly the Bharatas) as the Aryas of the Rigveda: of the 34 hymns in which the word is used, 28 hymns are
composed by the Bharatas, ANgirases and VasiSThas.

So how does he know that Arya in I.59.2 and VII.5.6 is used in a national sense and not a spiritual sense?  If the Purus was the name of the tribe then how could the name of the tribe be Aryan?  Wouldn't Arya in VII.5.6 also mean "one who follows the right path?"  How do we know it doesn't?

I think in those olden tribal days - the tribe was the nation and religion was the main identity - they were all rolled into one. So the Arya are the tribe who pray mainly to Indra.

Rig Vedic Aryans were probably very closely related to the Iranians, but might be a younger offshoot. The Asuras of RV i.e. Varuna and Mitra (equivalent to Ahura of Iran)  are referred to as the old and powerful Gods - while Indra and the twins are referred to as the newer and main Gods of the Aryans. 

While I havent reached the 6th and 7th chapters yet - Purus traditionally refers to one of the many tribes of the Aryans, one of the main and most important tribes. Traditionally they are supposed to have lived in Punjab - but I feel they might be from the areas of Punjab on the other (NWFP) side of the Indus. When I come to those Chapters, I will look closely for where exactly they were from.

So all tribes will pray to the same set of Gods. But each tribe will have its own hymns, composed by their own set of priests. Each set of hymns have the same kind of content - so in every set, Indra will kill Vritra and make the clouds yield water, the forts of the Dasyu will be broken by Indra, Savitr will give light, Agni will take the offerings of ghee to the Gods etc etc.

Dasyu is still unclear. Could be other Iranian tribes who dont pray to Indra. Could be local Indians of the Subcontinent. Could be other non Indo Iranian people who lived in forts  - could be anything, even allegorical enemies who never existed - it is not clear - we are reading between lines and so almost any meaning can be imputed to the verse. The interpretation will reveal the interpreters prejudice rather than the true nature of these people. I prefer to believe the simplest and most direct interpretation - they tend to be right. 

So the Purus are Aryans but other non Purus would also be Aryans - and will refer to themselves as Aryans when their own hymns are composed. If two Aryan tribes fight with each other and steal cattle - which seems likely - they will both pray to Indra. Their priests will use some hymns which are common but each will have a different set of hymns specific to themselves.

The RV is highly repetitive and is probably a compilation of the ritual prayers of the main clans which constituted the Aryan tribes. I dont think at this stage of evolution, there was much spiritualism involved in the RV - everything seems straightforward and means what it says. Some verses are more poetic than others while some are quite mysterious (probably an effort from the composing priest to make things sound more imposing to the ordinary people who would speak a simpler language - human nature doesnt change !!!).

When writing emerged in 5th Century BC, these hymns were re-compiled into what is the RV today - I personally believe that Yaska lived 500 BC and Panini lived around 300 BCE - because I dont think RV can be recompiled wthout writing. So my dates for RV in existing form with joined and separate words for memorisation would be 500 to 300 BC only. In the recompilation, the original tribal identification of each hymn set were lost. So when the rituals were again organised, the hymns were arranged into the Yajur Veda and the Sama Veda - or directly excerpted from the RV - for use in the different rituals.

So we no longer have tribe specific ritual - but have a ritual specific set of hymns.


The spiritualism probably came later when the Upanishads were composed - of course, many hymns of the RV are quite mysterious and it is easy to read spiritualism into most of the Chapter 2 (which I am currently reading). Upanishads are quite short and were written well before the final form of RV was composed, known to Yaska and Panini. 

Brahmanas were probably existing in a proto prose form before writing - and got greatly expanded only after 300 BC when writing was widespread.

AFAIK, only the RV, Yajur and Sama veda hymns were memorised by priests - Brahmanas, commentaries on Upanishads and Atharva Veda were not really memorised - and I greatly doubt if before writing, any one set of priests knew more than their own tribal hymns. 

Hence the repetitiousness of RV - hymns of many tribes were compiled after writing came.


Venky
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