Abortion a human right?

Originally posted by Northman Maybe we should introduce a "Driving License" for having children, just like we have for the cars already mentioned. Many, if not most people would flunk the test.   Ps.... sorry to butt in.

Originally posted by Carcharodon ..Because I think it´s more important to give rights to people who are already born into this world than to embryos.

It's funny every-time Pinguin is confronted with actual facts he responds with sensational fiction or decides he will no longer post/respond.  The fact of the matter, Pinguin, is this; you ask Carcharodon why he gets to decide to whom to give rights but the same question can be asked of you.  Why do you get to decide who gets rights and who doesn't?  The person who gets to decide is the woman who is going to have the procedure done, that's the only person who matters in this equation.  You want to make a big stink about late term abortions fine but that doesn't make all abortion bad. 

Edited by King John - 17-Jun-2009 at 23:10

Originally posted by Northman @Pinguin   In what stage of the production of an automobile, would you call it an automobile? When it's only some sheets of metal? When they start welding parts together? Before or after the engine comes in? Is a car a car without any wheels on it? There surely isn't much of "auto" in any of those - nor is there any mobility. I have a tremendous respect for human lives - and maybe especially for the unborn - and children. That is why I will prefer abortion in cases where those who should care for the baby are unable to do so, no matter the reason - if the abortion happens at an early stage.   Like the unfinished automobile, any embroy has a value - but it's still not a human being. How many pregnant women all over the world lose the embroy because of poor conditions? Who should we blame for these abortions? - the climate? - the government? - the mother or maybe us? On the same line - but even worse. How many children starve to deat every day - we let them do it....  I call that late abortions and we are to blame. Why don't we help them? - we could if we would.   So yes - I can accept early abortion - there are plenty of children who suffer too much already.   And to complete the circle.... off topic... There are so many people unfit to raise children, also in modern societies - for a huge number of reasons. Still they produce children who ends up on the street in crime and drugs or worse... Maybe we should introduce a "Driving License" for having children, just like we have for the cars already mentioned. Many, if not most people would flunk the test.   Ps.... sorry to butt in.

Well, first it is increasingly difficult to deny the "humanity" of the fetus, and this is a scientific position, not a religious one. The shift in the debate, even among pro-abortion individuals, toward concepts of "personhood" demonstrates this.

That said, allow me to address your analogy, which I like better in as an introductory problem in a logic course than in the real world:

Item: When the automobile is composed of animate flesh and blood, rather than inanimate metal; when it has the potential to construct itself, relying on the worker only to provide a warm factory and raw materials; when it has the potential, when left to it's own devices, to develop into a fully fledged automobile without external action (we may have to wait on modern medical technology here); and finally, when it, as a fully assembled automobile, possesses consciousness, then I will consider your analogy valid -- although at such a point, I would hope that both you and I would be advocating for the right of sheet metal, bolts, welded parts, etc.

Item: In light of the objection mentioned above, I would like to point out that while we cannot say that there is an automobile present in any of the early processes of assembly, the analogy is, once again, inadequate in dealing with the question of the child in the womb. We might say that there is a potential automobile present in the parts, but the corollary would be to say that the child in the womb is a potential "infant", "toddler", "teenager", "adult", etc.; we cannot deny its humanity from the time it begins to "assemble" itself.

Item: The automobile does not possess the capacity or the potential to gain the capacity to make a choice as to whether or not it wishes to be assembled; the child in the womb is denied the right to make a decision as to whether or not he will continue to grow. Come to think of it, infants do not possess the capacity to make this decision either, and most of us would believe that children, while they may articulate such a desire, do not. How many people do you know, who are miserable, who would actually like to end their life? I do not deny that they are out there, and we may discuss that issue in the euthanasia thread, but the overwhelming majority of presently miserable people who choose to continue living argues that we might want to consider a bit before we make decisions for a child based upon his or her potential misery.

As for the misery in the world, I agree with you that it is lamentable. I am not willing to allow us to start murdering each other -- which is what we are doing now, in a variety of ways among which abortion is included -- to solve the problem. As for your suggestion of a "baby license", I haven't considered the idea before; my initial impression is negative, but I'll mull it over a bit and get back with you if you want.

-Akolouthos





Edited by Akolouthos - 18-Jun-2009 at 01:38

Originally posted by Mixcoatl Originally posted by pinguin Besides, in your country doctors are killing 9 months old babies.... So that means you celebrate your day of conception rather than your birthday?

Edited by pinguin - 18-Jun-2009 at 05:15

Originally posted by pinguin Originally posted by Styrbiorn ...You might as well draw the limit a little further and argue for a ban of masturbation. Those little creatures are potential humans too.   Don't be silly. There aren't rational shifting of the limits a "little bit further" to ridiculize the quality of humans of fetus. You well know life start at the conception.   By the way, I have some excelent pictures of a so called "partial birth". There, a 9 month fetus is decapitated, in orden women excercise theirs rights. I can send you them by private e-mail if you like. There you can see the big smile of the "mommy"

You may call me silly, but I'm not the one stating something that's entirely arbitrary as a fact, whereas you do. The same way you do not consider a sperm a human, I don't consider a couple of cells a human either. I don't know when or how the foetus starts having a conciousness, but I'm completely sure you don't know either. I never talked about abortion of 9 month's babies, I think that's pretty horrible. I was talking about the very early stages, where I think it is up to the parents, and mother in particular, eg in cases such as rape.



Edited by Styrbiorn - 18-Jun-2009 at 13:05