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Decline of Ottoman Military Power

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  Quote Tobodai Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Decline of Ottoman Military Power
    Posted: 13-Jan-2005 at 20:02
I myself am a very large Ottoman EMpire fan.  As it meets several of my requirements for a succesful society (tolerant, multi ethnic, not excessively religious, militarily astute, and technologically proficient) and I have many books on it as a subject, however, not many good ones about its decline, any recommendations.  From what I can tell the decline was not itself instigated by a technology gap, I believe the tech gap itself was created by an increasingly and unfortunately conservative culture, perhpas stemming from a feeling too confidant in how they compared to their neighbors, any thoughts?
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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 14-Jan-2005 at 12:30

Hi there, Tobodai!

I recently finished reading Quataert's "Ottoman Empire, 1700-1922". I found it very interesting, as it really gives you an good insight into what is acknowledged as the fading years of the Empire. The reasons for the decline are several, but the conservative culture that you pointed, alongside with a feeling of natural superiority towards the western powers (due to lack of contact with the West - First Ottoman Embassies and permanent delegations in Europe appeared very late in the 18th century), is definitely one of them.

Internal corruption and frequent poor leadership were also the case. After Sleyman I (the peak of Ottoman rule - 16th century), and the defeat at the gates of Vienna, the Ottomans started drawing back. Alongside came a new emmerging power, the tsarist Russia. Things only got better again when Koprl & Son came to the scene and reformed the army and the navy, regaining some provinces in the Balkans (Belgrade I believe), and showing up at the gates of Vienna once more, only to be defeated by poor tactics and a non-expected polish reinforcement that forced the Ottomans to withdraw. After that, further territorial expansion only the conquer of Cyprus, and Ukraine from Poland. 

Anyway, the West was gaining the upperhand and slowly the Ottomans were diminishing in power and influence. A rush of unsuccessful wars with Russia made them lose many territorial possessions in the Balkans. Internal reforms to westernize (like the Tanzimat) were slow and found resistance from some sectors (like the Janissary, which eventually led to their extinction), and overall the western economy was more powerful and soon dictating laws in Ottoman internal affairs.

The Constitution that was a part of the Tanzimat process, was abolished by the Sultan, only to be put back by the Young Turks revolution (and the Sultan put away).

By the time of WWI, the shrinked Empire was in a social transition phase that never got its end due to the ultimate extinction of the Dinasty by Atatrk, following the Empire's defeat in the war.

But this is just a very brief comment. I strongly recommend the book. I'm also about to read Halil Inalcik's "Ottoman Empire, 1300-1600". I've also read Cemal Kadafar's "The Construction of the Ottoman State", a good insight on the origins of the Empire and the various thesis around it.

I'm open to more suggestions, of course.

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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 07:00

Things only got better again when Koprl & Son came to the scene and reformed the army and the navy, regaining some provinces in the Balkans (Belgrade I believe), and showing up at the gates of Vienna once more, only to be defeated by poor tactics and a non-expected polish reinforcement that forced the Ottomans to withdraw.

Uhm, there is a chronological confusion here

The Ottomans still ruled Hungary during the grandvizierates of Kprl Mehmed Paa (1656-1661) and Kprl Fzl Ahmed Paa (1661-1675). It was Merzifonlu Kara Mustafa Paa who was defeated at Vienna in 1683. The loss of re-capture of Belgrade happened much later.

Internal reforms to westernize (like the Tanzimat) were slow and found resistance from some sectors (like the Janissary, which eventually led to their extinction), and overall the western economy was more powerful and soon dictating laws in Ottoman internal affairs.

The Kapkulu Corps were abolished before the declaration of the Taznimat.

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Jan-2005 at 21:02
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Was it in 1711?

I know such battle occured, reason I remeber, it was its unusual outcome, but unfortunately I don't remeber anything else.
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  Quote Jagatai Khan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Jan-2005 at 12:29

It must be Battle of Prut 1711,but I didn't know such a thing about this battle.

Muskets vs Bows ..... strange ....

Maybe Ihsan knows?

 

by the way

Everyone knows that Sleyman I failed to capture Vienna,but it isn't correct.

Suleyman and his soldiers had motivated to capture Vienna,but while they were going,the siege plan was cancelled;because it was winter,soldiers and supplies were going to exhaust and Ottoman Army hadn't brought cannons.

There wasn't a battle to capture Vienna in front of the city

 

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  Quote Yiannis Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Jan-2005 at 02:48

Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

;because it was winter,soldiers and supplies were going to exhaust and Ottoman Army hadn't brought cannons.

That was the main problem of the Ottoman army. Their Logistics service was tragic and it was one of the elements that stopped their expansion.

The Sultan with his entourage and the army would leave Constantinople in Spring to wage war. By the time he would reach Austria, it would be autumn and he had to return back while a large portion of the army would be starving in the mud.

The Hapsburgs cleverly identified this weakness and enlarged it. They build many small forts that were heavily fortified along the Danube. The Ottomans instead of leaving a small force to siege them would launch all-off attacks against them, thus stalling for even longer their campaign. At one occasion, a small garrison of 300 men, stalled the whole Ottoman army for two months, thus destroying the entire campaign.

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  Quote Infidel Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 19-Jan-2005 at 08:43

Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

Everyone knows that Sleyman I failed to capture Vienna,but it isn't correct.

Suleyman and his soldiers had motivated to capture Vienna,but while they were going,the siege plan was cancelled;because it was winter,soldiers and supplies were going to exhaust and Ottoman Army hadn't brought cannons.

There wasn't a battle to capture Vienna in front of the city

 

I though Sleyman actually died prior to getting there, somewhere in Hungary, during a battle.

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 11:49
Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

It must be Battle of Prut 1711,but I didn't know such a thing about this battle.


I thought  this too.  I looked at all possible battles of Nothern War.
Problem is, I could not find a detailed description of any of these battles.
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  Quote ihsan Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 20-Jan-2005 at 15:09
It must be Battle of Prut 1711,but I didn't know such a thing about this battle.

Muskets vs Bows ..... strange ....

Maybe Ihsan knows?

By the 18th century most Ottoman soldiers were armed with matchlock and fuse muskets which started replacing the composite bows a long time ago (most Ottoman janissaries had become musketeers by the 16th century and towards the end of that century, new musketeer units in the provincial units were formed).

That was the main problem of the Ottoman army. Their Logistics service was tragic and it was one of the elements that stopped their expansion.

Not always.

The Sultan with his entourage and the army would leave Constantinople in Spring to wage war. By the time he would reach Austria, it would be autumn and he had to return back while a large portion of the army would be starving in the mud.

Again, not always. I know at least a few campaigns which were launched at spring. But the Viennese Campaign of 1526 was a total strategic error.

The Hapsburgs cleverly identified this weakness and enlarged it.

It's Habsburg  I hope Temujin won't see it

At one occasion, a small garrison of 300 men, stalled the whole Ottoman army for two months, thus destroying the entire campaign.

Hmm interesting, which siege is this?

I though Sleyman actually died prior to getting there, somewhere in Hungary, during a battle.

He died during the siege of Szigetwar (sp?).

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  Quote cavalry4ever Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Jan-2005 at 13:27
Originally posted by cavalry4ever

Originally posted by Jagatai Khan

It must be Battle of Prut 1711,but I didn't know such a thing about this battle.


I thought  this too.  I looked at all possible battles of Nothern War.
Problem is, I could not find a detailed description of any of these battles.


Maybe I am wrong and this was in the century before.
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