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Napoleon Bonaparte: was he for or against the...

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  Quote crazco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Napoleon Bonaparte: was he for or against the...
    Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 02:27
revolutionary ideas from the French Revolution that the peasants stated. Can you prove your yes or no answer with evidence????
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 03:20
It was the middle class who were producing these ideas of freedom. The peasantry followed suit. Napoleon is an enigma he was both a revolutionary in my mind, and a reactionary upon need. After the Revolution had sparked off Napoleon swore off his noble standing, whatever little meaning it had considering he was a nobleman from a royal backwater, and also a relatively recent aquisition. In the Revolutionary movement he had more chace and a more fitting role. It is hard to say that he was only opportunistic; no matter the frevour of the movement, he took a chance. If the cause died he may not have had much of a future as a royal. His later endevours toc urb freedom came as a result to his new position and the constant state of war in the newly proclaimed Empire. As a repulic even after he ceased all power the state was in the middle of royalist states who supported any offshoot of the Bourbons over 'rabble,' thus it is hard to say that he was not in any way a believer in the ideals.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 11:49
I find it difficult to believe that someone who made himself emperor, and his friends and family kings and princes, was devoted to the ideals of republican government. Confused
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  Quote Justinian Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 13:21
Depends on which ideas one is discussing, some of them yes, others no. 
"War is a cowardly escape from the problems of peace."--Thomas Mann

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  Quote crazco Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 14:41
That is my overall question: which did he support and which did he not, along with evidence if applicable.

Thanks everyone so far!
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 16:08
Originally posted by gcle2003

I find it difficult to believe that someone who made himself emperor, and his friends and family kings and princes, was devoted to the ideals of republican government. Confused

I don't say exactly devoted, but definetly partial to them. He was a man of his times nevertheless. But, think of it this way, he was also supposed to and expected to act in that manner. France had a legitimate monarchy; now that monarchy had claimants, he could not extinguish these claims, especially now that the rest of Europe began antagonizing him. The reactionary governments throughout Europe did not need a powerful repbulic in the midsts of royal traditions. He reacted to the problems. As far as making royals of his family, well, again that was almost needed in him mind, except Spain where he had a loyal royal family in place already. He needed to secure these holdings in order to secure France. Otherwise he would have risked having no buffers. It is not unsimilar to the Roman expansion in the 4th ct. BC and up, they fought "defensive" wars, wars which more and more could be agressive than deffensive. However, they thought of it as purely defensive in order to secure their interests and to create a buffer between them and everyone else. Now he was no diehard republican obviously, for he would have died for his beliefs rather than conformed to the norm, but he was partial to them for sure.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 20:52
Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by gcle2003

I find it difficult to believe that someone who made himself emperor, and his friends and family kings and princes, was devoted to the ideals of republican government. Confused

I don't say exactly devoted, but definetly partial to them.
Liberté? Egalité? Fraternité possibly as long as they were his own brothers. Atheism and the cult of Reason?
He was a man of his times nevertheless. But, think of it this way, he was also supposed to and expected to act in that manner. France had a legitimate monarchy; now that monarchy had claimants, he could not extinguish these claims, especially now that the rest of Europe began antagonizing him. The reactionary governments throughout Europe did not need a powerful repbulic in the midsts of royal traditions.
They were willing to deal with the US and the Dutch Republic. Admittedly they were not a military threat as Frence was both before and after Napoleon assuming the crown.
He reacted to the problems. As far as making royals of his family, well, again that was almost needed in him mind, except Spain where he had a loyal royal family in place already.
I don't understand that - he made his brother King of Spain, as well as a few other places.
 He needed to secure these holdings in order to secure France. Otherwise he would have risked having no buffers. It is not unsimilar to the Roman expansion in the 4th ct. BC and up, they fought "defensive" wars, wars which more and more could be agressive than deffensive. However, they thought of it as purely defensive in order to secure their interests and to create a buffer between them and everyone else.
That's true but has nothing to do with the ideals of the Revolution. And claiming that Napoleon's military adventures were merely 'to secure France' is a bit mind-boggling.
Now he was no diehard republican obviously, for he would have died for his beliefs rather than conformed to the norm, but he was partial to them for sure.
I'm not sure what ideals you think he was partial to - partial enough to override his personal ambitions.
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  Quote pikeshot1600 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Sep-2008 at 21:40
I don't think we can read into Bonaparte's career all that much of the French Revolution.  He himself, up until 18 Brumaire, was somewhat of a revolutionary politician since that was the atmosphere he existed in.  After that, it was all power politics since he had effective control of the army.
 
The abduction and execution of Enghien, and the sequestration of the Pope for five years, have been expressed as illustrations of Bonaparte's anti-Bourbon, anti-clerical revolutionary zeal.  Not so.  His personal ambitions and his ambitions for his family were no different than any dynast, and were realized not unlike any Renaissance tyrant.  He took what he wanted and destroyed opposition. 
 
His cult of personality was little different than others that have followed some years after revolutionary events.  Reforms were principally administrative since those assisted in governing, and were seen to be popular enough to extend influence into territories where the French could get away with that, and being popular, (unintentionally) strengthened the "Cult."
 
After 18 Brumaire, the popularly recognized tenets of the French Revolution, Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, were transformed into Infantry, Cavalry, Artillery.
 
      


Edited by pikeshot1600 - 28-Sep-2008 at 21:59
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 29-Sep-2008 at 03:05
Originally posted by gcle2003

Originally posted by es_bih

Originally posted by gcle2003

I find it difficult to believe that someone who made himself emperor, and his friends and family kings and princes, was devoted to the ideals of republican government. Confused

I don't say exactly devoted, but definetly partial to them.
Liberté? Egalité? Fraternité possibly as long as they were his own brothers. Atheism and the cult of Reason?
He was a man of his times nevertheless. But, think of it this way, he was also supposed to and expected to act in that manner. France had a legitimate monarchy; now that monarchy had claimants, he could not extinguish these claims, especially now that the rest of Europe began antagonizing him. The reactionary governments throughout Europe did not need a powerful repbulic in the midsts of royal traditions.
They were willing to deal with the US and the Dutch Republic. Admittedly they were not a military threat as Frence was both before and after Napoleon assuming the crown.
He reacted to the problems. As far as making royals of his family, well, again that was almost needed in him mind, except Spain where he had a loyal royal family in place already.
I don't understand that - he made his brother King of Spain, as well as a few other places.
 He needed to secure these holdings in order to secure France. Otherwise he would have risked having no buffers. It is not unsimilar to the Roman expansion in the 4th ct. BC and up, they fought "defensive" wars, wars which more and more could be agressive than deffensive. However, they thought of it as purely defensive in order to secure their interests and to create a buffer between them and everyone else.
That's true but has nothing to do with the ideals of the Revolution. And claiming that Napoleon's military adventures were merely 'to secure France' is a bit mind-boggling.
Now he was no diehard republican obviously, for he would have died for his beliefs rather than conformed to the norm, but he was partial to them for sure.
I'm not sure what ideals you think he was partial to - partial enough to override his personal ambitions.


France was attacked post-Revolution mostly due to the fact they overthrew their royal family. That fact alone shows a proven hostility for non-royal forms. The US was an ocean away, and the Dutch Republic lost out to England throughout their wars. It was a minor European partner more interested in gaining trading outposts than expanding in Europe.

As far as Napoleon, yes he had his favor of certain revolutionary ideas, for one merit based promotions, as he himself would not have much chance against the established nobility in the prior system.

He made his family into royals and his generals into princes, why? because it was easier to trust them than established royals who never saw him as part of their country club so to say. Claiming the Imperial throne was a move to legitimize himself in a already established system, marriages soon followed, attaching himself to the Hapsburgs, too was a good idea. These things can go both ways, diabolical twists and turns, or actions based on necessity or supposed necessity. I said prior, there was no need to dismember the Spanish Bourbons, they were allies, he though them incapable of controlling Spain - a country in turmoil due to decades of misgovernment and debt.




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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 30-Sep-2008 at 20:24
Originally posted by crazco

revolutionary ideas from the French Revolution that the peasants stated. Can you prove your yes or no answer with evidence????


neither. Napoleon was only for himself and he attached himself only to Monarchy & revolution as it served him to further his own aims. he left the Revolution mostly in place but keeping hostile with Jacobines and tried to reconcile with the Monarchy that wanted to get ridd of him.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 01-Oct-2008 at 14:39
Originally posted by es_bih

France was attacked post-Revolution mostly due to the fact they overthrew their royal family.
Post-revolution yes. Not however post-1803.
That fact alone shows a proven hostility for non-royal forms.
There was no alliance against the Dutch republic or the English Commonwealth on those grounds. In fact the Dutch and the English in Cromwell's time fought each other more than anyone else.
The US was an ocean away, and the Dutch Republic lost out to England throughout their wars.
I wouldn't go to bat on the 'lost out'. However, the Dutch fought against the English republic, while they were allies with the English crown.
It was a minor European partner more interested in gaining trading outposts than expanding in Europe.

As far as Napoleon, yes he had his favor of certain revolutionary ideas, for one merit based promotions, as he himself would not have much chance against the established nobility in the prior system.

He made his family into royals and his generals into princes, why? because it was easier to trust them than established royals who never saw him as part of their country club so to say. Claiming the Imperial throne was a move to legitimize himself in a already established system, marriages soon followed, attaching himself to the Hapsburgs, too was a good idea.
I'm not saying it was a bad idea, just that it doesn't show much devotion to revolutionary ideals.
These things can go both ways, diabolical twists and turns, or actions based on necessity or supposed necessity. I said prior, there was no need to dismember the Spanish Bourbons, they were allies, he though them incapable of controlling Spain - a country in turmoil due to decades of misgovernment and debt.
 
You just seem to be arguing that Napoleon did what he did because it was sensible and profitable. I don't think anyone's disputing that, but the question was about how far he was devoted to revolutionary ideas, not how good was he as a diplomat, general and emperor.
 
As for the relationship between Citoyen François and Britannia, I leave it to Gillray:
 
 


Edited by gcle2003 - 01-Oct-2008 at 14:41
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