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HELP-1250 Battle of Mansurah King Louis IX Baybars

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jones89 View Drop Down
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: HELP-1250 Battle of Mansurah King Louis IX Baybars
    Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 15:05
Hello everyone, this is my first post here, so hi!
 
I've been researching the 7th Crusade and medieval France and Egypt for almost 1 and a half years now! Why? Because I'm writing a duology of historical fiction novels about it. But I need some help....
 
I have looked at several sources concerning the battle of Mansurah. There are 3 things that change depending on the source.
 
1 Baybars opened a gate in Mansurah to let the Crusaders into his trap (ambush).
2 The Crusaders forced the gate to get into Mansurah and found it deserted and then were ambushed.
3 Most of the Muslim army was in Mansurah (so how could it appear deserted!?)
4 The Crusaders rode through Mansurah and out the other side ("into the fields before Grand Cairo" - to quote Joinville's Memoirs) where they came face to face with Baybars, they then retreated through the town of Mansurah and were ambushed.
 
The sequence of events I believe to be most accurate is: Mansurah had most of the Muslim army in it, Baybars opened the gate to tempt them to carry on chasing a group of Muslims who they had routed from the camp in front of Mansurah, and for the first section of the city the Muslims were all hidden away, then when the Crusaders were totally inside they closed the gate (trapping them) and ambushed the Crusaders.
 
Essentially my version of events combines most of the sources. Although the bit about the Muslims hiding away for the first section of the city is totally made up by me, but is a good theory as to why one source said that Mansurah appeared "deserted" at first.
 
Sources I have looked at: Cambridge History of Egypt, History of the Crusades (not the one by Sir Steven Runciman - I'm getting that soon!) as well as Al-Makrisi and Joinville's Memoirs.
 
I thought Joinville's Memoirs would be the most accurate as he was actually there but he is the only one, I believe, who says the Crusaders chased the Muslims from their camp through Mansurah and out the other side into the fields before Grand Cairo and then retreated back through Mansurah and were ambushed. - Although another source does say that the Crusaders were retreating through Mansurah when they were ambushed. - But, a theory for this is that Baybars could have been in the streets.
 
 
Dead This is a very complicated question I'm asking, and am hoping someone might know.
 
As I'm writing historical fiction I may use my own version of events which is a combination of all those sources with a couple of my own theories included.
 
SIMPLE question here: The Crusaders were on horses, useless in the medieval city of Mansurah with it's tight lanes, they got stuck basically, and couldn't even turn around in the alleyways. Would the Muslims have been dismounted in Mansurah?
 
 
Many thanks!
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  Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 15:23
You have seen Jean de Joinville's Memoirs eh? These events must be clearer there. Except Baybars I am sure. He is not very much mentioned there. Only once I think as "Bondoqar"(misspelled of his second name "el-Bundukdari"). And el-maqrisi gives good detail too...

But since you say you have read them I should remind you one thing. Mamluk military was horse bound just like crusaders, so the must be even if they have dismounted or not.

In the city of mansurah the day must be won by hard struggle fought in the streets. But there is really no way of telling besides these two sources have to say.

As to Baybars he is said to be there.(where else can he be if he is not sick or somethingSmile ) And much of his later reputation was won on that battle before Ayn Jalut.

And I am sure you know about the "Brethren" and "Crusade" by Robyn Young. She tells a story of the same era, same events but starting after Ayn Jalut...
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 15:46
Hello jones
 
Well here is the entire campaign by one of the Ayubid princes (Abulfida) however he wasn't contemporary, he died 80 years after the battle.
 
"The Crusaders were known to have spent the summer in Cyprus and the King, Al-Saleh Ayub built a huge arsenal in Dimetta which his intelligence told him was the goal of the attack and filled it with Bedouin troops of Banu Kinanah. Whe the 50k crusaders attacked the city the people of the city and the troops defending it fled leaving the entire arsenal, enough for some 20k men,the egyptian Dunkirk. The Sultan in southern Egypt was surprised so he summoned the troops and besieged the crusaders who stayed for the rest of the year because of the high waters of the Nile. At that time many of the troops were in Syria trying to end a rebellion so these were quickly summoned to Masurah where he camped and he was very sick and decided not to engage until he was well but he died. His concubine ruled in his name instead and summoned his son Turan shah who was in Hasankayfa in modern day Turkey then. When summer came and the water was low, the French attacked the city and the troops were defeated but they returned to their bases. Two months later they attacked again and took Masurah (briefly) but they were defeated and forced to flee back to their bases near Dimetta two weeks later. At that time a naval operation succeeded in distroying the entire fleet,they took 32 ships and burned the rest. Rather than returning to Dimeitta, the French set up their bases between Mansurah and dimeitta in a place known to be subject to flooding all season long so the mamelukes built makeshift dams on the canals around the frech camp except in the direction of Mansurah and Dimeitta and waited. Things got a lot complicated when Dimietta was overran and any hope for escape ended being under water and between two large armies closing every possible way out. A desparate attack in the Direction of Dimeitta was a disaster and the King surrendered and was kept in Ibn Luqman's house till the ramson was payed."
 
hope this will help you.
 
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 15:59
Thanks for your reply!
 
I know Baybars was at Mansurah, but depending on which source you believe he was in Mansurah and opening the gates and closing the gates and arranging the ambush, OR he was outside Mansurah in the fields near Cairo (!) I think Joinville is wrong to be honest! It's not actually possible, as Cairo is about 70miles from Mansurah, but even Baybars was just the other side of Mansurah (a few miles away) there is no reason why he wasn't inside - especially as he was one of the most important commanders in the army at that time.
 
What do you mean about the Muslims being dismounted? I didn't understand you...
 
The advance-guard of the Christians were mounted and that caused them big problems in the streets of Mansurah. So, with the Muslims being in Mansurah with their horses, would they have dismounted for the battle with the Christians. A 'charge' by Baybars and his Mamluks is mentioned, but that could be either on foot or horse. The main attack was all the Muslims on the rooftops throwing things....
 
And yes I have Brethren & Crusade, great books that begin a few years after mine. But mine follow Shajar Al-Durr and a fictional French knight and his men, rather than Templars. I follow Baybars for the Mansurah chapter, and for the killing of Turanshah chapter in my second book. Cool 
 
"But there is really no way of telling besides these two sources have to say." This line you wrote made me happy! Thanks again! lol :D
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 16:09
To Al Jassas - thank you! This forum is so much better than many I've been on! No one had heard of what I'm writing about, let alone been any help!
 
That was very interesting, I had never seen that account before. The army numbers are wrong (as usual) but I wonder if you can answer a couple of questions about that?
 
1 Banu Kinanah?
2 ...enough for some 20k men,the egyptian Dunkirk. - Dunkirk?
3 ...besieged the crusaders who stayed for the rest of the year... - I have never read that the Crusaders were besieged in Damietta. I only ever heard that they stayed there because they were waiting for reinforcements from Alphonse + the weather/Nile conditions to improve.
4 ...in a place known to be subject to flooding all season long so the mamelukes built makeshift dams on the canals around the frech camp except in the direction of Mansurah and Dimeitta and waited. Things got a lot complicated when Dimietta was overran and any hope for escape ended being under water and between two large armies closing every possible way out. - Never heard of any of this! People were drowned by the opening of some dams?
 
See what I mean? All the sources vary alot! Thank you! Cheers
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  Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 16:15
Well I meant if the Christian knights were mounted so were the mamluks. By that I tried to say they were even mounted or dismounted both forces relied on cavalry. And same conditions under the narrow(so called) streets.

And thanks al-Jassas that was an interesting post but I did not quite understand where did you quote from.
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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 19:03
Hello to you all
 
What is wrong with the numbers, they seem pretty reasonable and all sources agree (Arab sources) that some 20k were taken with Louis and all were ransomed. Cyprus is quite near to Egypt and it took most of a year to gather all the troops there before the invasion starts.
 
As for besieging the French, well it is more of an isolation than besieging. They were trapped between Manzilah lake and Burullus where the Muslim navy was stationed and between them there were lots of troops and lowland filled by water at that time.
 
As for the Egyptian Dunkirk, well the French found in Dimeitta an entire arsenal of new weapons from the Cairo works, including siege weapons and horses, in an empty city without shooting a single arrow just as the Germans found a complete arsenal in the beaches at Dunkirk in 1940 after the Brits withdrew. Comparable situation.
 
As for the dams, they only cut the French in pieces, few were drowned directly by them but many were when they tried to ford them. Baibars wasn't the mastermind of this strategy, he was just a cavalry general, the real mastermind was Aibak who was a very good general who planned it all. actually when you piece everything together they start to make some sense:
 
1- The French first take Dimietta with little resistance and defeat the navy of the Nile and control the sea route to Cyprus, this happened in the summer of 49.
2- Knowing that the flood was coming, the Ayubids decided they will stay at their main base at Mansurah waiting for the enemy which will not attack till winter, at that time the strategy was drawn to fight the French and cut them to pieces but this will happen only after they start moving.
3-The Sultan dies and his death is not annouces till his son came from present day Turkey.
4-In November, the floods are all but gone and the region is now perfect for a full march so the Frech advance to Mansurah (the first attack) but they fail and retreat.
5- In the winter, they attack again this time reinforced by troops from home. They take the city while at excatly the same time, several days give or take, the naval action succeeds in distroying the route to Cyprus and most of the French navy giving full control over the sea to the Ayubids.
6- Isolated in the city, the crusaders try to break by advancing on towards Cairo where they are totally defeated outside the city and the city is taken less than 2-3 week after it first fell.
7- The French try to retreat only to find that all but one road to Dimeitta were blocked by either deliberate flooding or by troops and with the naval action, they become isolated from the city in Fariskur.
8- After two month of terrible siege, the battle commences, now the Nile and the canals at their lowest and the roads cleared and Louis surrenders.
 
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 19:52
Originally posted by Al Jassas

Hello to you all
 
4-In November, the floods are all but gone and the region is now perfect for a full march so the Frech advance to Mansurah (the first attack) but they fail and retreat.
4-Are you referring to: when a coptic Christian showed them across the canal, where the vanguard led by Robert of Artois, William Longspee and the Templars cross, rout the Egyptian outpost camp outside Mansurah, then continue into Mansurah and are ambushed and defeated. Then Louis' crossbowmen make it across the river and the Muslims retreat into Mansurah?
 
5- In the winter, they attack again this time reinforced by troops from home. They take the city while at excatly the same time, several days give or take, the naval action succeeds in distroying the route to Cyprus and most of the French navy giving full control over the sea to the Ayubids.
5-What city are you talking about here?
 
6- Isolated in the city, the crusaders try to break by advancing on towards Cairo where they are totally defeated outside the city and the city is taken less than 2-3 week after it first fell.
6-What city!?
 
7- The French try to retreat only to find that all but one road to Dimeitta were blocked by either deliberate flooding or by troops and with the naval action, they become isolated from the city in Fariskur.
7-What city!?
 
8- After two month of terrible siege, the battle commences, now the Nile and the canals at their lowest and the roads cleared and Louis surrenders.
 
Al-Jassas
 
I agree with you at 5, 6 and 7 but what you are talking about with a city totally eludes me. The French were decamped outside Mansurah where they all fell ill before the battle of Fariskur. They weren't in any city. When they were outside of Damietta, they were never in any city. The Muslims, however, were either in Mansurah or in a camp of their own (such as one near Damietta, and a small one outside Mansurah which was the outpost).tongue
 
The numbers are all wrong. Geek The second half of this page explains why: http://books.google.com/books?id=2dsycrclykIC&printsec=frontcover&sig=oNmkpefLjBMsMe4qD7MuHBwydaA#PPA493,M1
Also in Brethren, the book by Robyn Young she puts the French army at 30,000 when she briefly refers to the seventh crusade.
 
Also, the numbers quoted on the page I have linked to I have seen in the Joinville document before I saw this book about the History of the Crusades, and had worked it out with a historian. So I know that 25k is the right number, but because there is still some guesswork involved you can probably give or take 5k.
 
The number of prisoners who were relased is something like 12,503 I think - but not all of them were prisoners from the seventh crusade, and i think for 7 days 300 christians were killed every day anyway, so the actual amount of prisoners who were taken and released that are ONLY from the seventh crusade can only be guessed at. Although if the army was 25k then I reckon about 15k were taken prisoner, taking into account deaths by illness whilst beseiging Mansurah, war deaths and executions. Some were taken to Damietta and executed towards the end too. Prisoner numbers are really complicated for all these reasons, as the number was different every day since the defeat at Fariskur to when most of the French captives sailed for home (years before Louis did).
 
Fariskur was a big battle that turned into a combination of capture by being surrounded and a surrender not ordered by the king which some say was due to a traitor shouting to surrender (!)
 
----
By the way, all my knowledge comes mainly from the following sources, as well as countless websites:

·         The Citadel of Cairo: A New Interpretation of Royal Mamluk Architecture, by Nasser O. Rabbat

·         The Middle East in the Middle Ages: The Early Mamluk Sultanate 1250-1382, by Robert Irwin (i have spoken to this guy many times in e-mails, as well as the world's leading expert who I think was call Hildenbrand but I can't remmeber lol!)

·         From Slave to Sultan: The Career of Al-Manūr Qalāwūn and the Consolidation of Mamluk Rule in Egypt and Syria, by Linda Northrup

·         Saracen Faris, 1050-1250 AD, by David Nicolle, Christa Hook

·         Mamluks, by David Nicolle

·         The Cambridge History of Egypt, by M. W. Daly, Carl F. Petry

·         Medieval France: An Encyclopedia, by William W. Kibler, Grover A. Zinn

·         The Knights Templar, by Sean Martin

·         The Knight in History, by Frances Gies

·         The Crusades, by Helen J. Nicholson

·         A History of the Crusades: The Later Crusades, 1189-1311, by Kenneth M. Setton, Robert Lee Wolff, Harry W. Hazard

 

·         Internet Medieval Sourcebook:
Al-Makrisi: Arab Account of the Crusade of St. Louis,
Fordam University, New York

·         The Memoirs of the Lord of Joinville, by Ethel Wedgwood, Electronic Text Center University of Virginia Library

 
This many interst you guys as well, a timeline of events - although it misses out an imporant part, when the Crusaders were on their way back to Damietta they had been outside Mansurah for a couple of months besieging it, and at Fariskur (on their way back) they were defeated/captured/surrendered: http://www.packrat-pro.com/crusades/crusade7.htm

After my months of research I created a timeline as I went along, and only the other day I found the one at the link above! lol I was so annoyed, it took me ages building up that timeline and reading the entire Internet + those books! LOL

I

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  Quote Al Jassas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 20:07
Hello Jones
 
right now I am in the middle of my finals, next one is in 3 days, so i don't have much time to go deep into what really happened until I finish. Till that time I hope I answered most of your question. As for the guy who told the French where to go, he was most likely a spy because they fell in a trap rather than surprise the enemy.
 
finally, do you need lessons in english?
 
7- The French try to retreat only to find that all but one road to Dimeitta were blocked by either deliberate flooding or by troops and with the naval action, they become isolated from the city in Fariskur.
7-What city!?
Answer is Dimietta!
 
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 20:07
By the way none of my sources, original ones by Joinville and Makrisi too - mention them being trapped between those 2 lakes you mentioned.
 
Also the Egyptian navy disassembled some ships and put them on camels and got behind the crusaders, which was the blockade and capture/desctruction of the French ships...
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 20:31
Now now! No need to b sarcastic! Wink Sorry it was unclear which city you meant (to me anyway lol), I don't tend to think of them as isolated from Damietta.
 
The guy who told the French where to go was a coptic Christian, the French paid him loads for his information and he was not a spy, because his information was good and the advance guard totally routed the Egyptian outpost camp in front of Mansurah. The Egyptians were taken totally by surprise. (They killed Fakhr ad-Din too, who was in the bath at the time) and then chased the remaining Egyptians into Mansurah, where they were ambushed by Baybars in the streets, and had wood and planks thrown onto them from the rooftops. About 10ish people survived from the vanguard. One of them being the now one-eyed Templar Grand Master. Robert Artois died in a house in Mansurah that he had barricaded himself in.
 
I don't know what sources you're using, but a couple of the things you are saying sound similar to the Fifth Crusade. That may just be a conincidence.
 
Please state your sources so I can have a look.
 
"6- Isolated in the city, the crusaders try to break by advancing on towards Cairo where they are totally defeated outside the city and the city is taken less than 2-3 week after it first fell."
 
You've put this in a strange way again. It's confused me at first the way you phrase it.
By that you mean the Crusaders were camped outside Mansurah (advancing on towards Cairo) then on their way back to Damietta (the city) they are defeated at Fariskur (they are totally defeated) and Damietta was taken again 2-3 weeks later?
 
Sometimes I'm not sure we're talking about the same crusade, nothing in the seventh crusade was taken, and then 2-3 weeks later retaken by the Muslims....
 
I really want to know your sources...
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Jun-2008 at 20:38

Btw, we have rather gone off-topic, as my question was about the battle of Mansurah specifically, where it is essentially a choice between Joinville who says the Crusaders got past Mansurah to the fields in front of Cairo and on their retreat through Mansurah was ambushed - or a the history of the crusades book which uses multiple sources.

I'm going with the second one, as Mansurah had 90%+ of the Muslim's army in it, making it impossible for them to ride through. Also the fact that there is no source and no reason as to why Baybars and his Mamluks would be anywhere but inside Mansurah...

 
Edit: sorry for triple post, only just found the edit button on this forum....


Edited by jones89 - 07-Jun-2008 at 20:39
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  Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 08:46
Hello Al-jassas. Thank you again I have too much work I will have other questions but I am really curious about your sources.

Originally posted by Al Jassas

Baibars wasn't the mastermind of this strategy, he was just a cavalry general, the real mastermind was Aibak who was a very good general who planned it all. actually when you piece everything together they start to make some sense:


Also this needs citation. I have neve seen such an info. As far as I know Baybars was a mastermind but in that war you are right he was second in command but Aybek wasn't.

It was Aktay. I don't think Aybek was much of a great military mind.


Edited by Efraz - 08-Jun-2008 at 10:02
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 09:37
Yes, that's what I was thinking too Efraz.
 
There was Aktai a-Mosterab and Aktai al-Jemdar.
 
Jemdar was the leader of the Bahris that Aybak had murdered.
Mostareb was the commander-in-chief of the army.
 
Also note: I'm using inconsistent spellings like Aktai & Aybak instead of Aktai and Aibak so their names don't look so similar on the page and are less confusing for the reader.
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  Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 09:58
Well as a native Turkish speaker le me give you correct spellings :)

Aktay: White young horse
Aybek: Lord-Moon
Baybars(sometimes Bay-pars): Lord-Panther
Kutuz: Enraged


Yes the first Aktay was Baybars' murdered frined. Second one was also his friend who has helped him get the throne after he killed Kutuz


Edited by Efraz - 08-Jun-2008 at 10:00
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:05
I didn't know those meanings - thank you Efraz!
 
In Makrisi's writings Kutuz = Qutuz and Aktay = Aqtay.
 
Almost every book or source you read either uses a different spelling for the same name, or one of the person's other names like Bundukdari...(I know the meaning of that one lol ;) )
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  Quote Efraz Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:11
Well I know Aqtai, Aibak, Baibars, Qutuz usages. These forms are for the easy spelling for English readers. I tried to give the spellings with today's Turkish language according to the meanings of the words. Of course Baibars, Qutuz etc is still commonly used if we are writing in English.

For example Kazakhs too consider Memluks as their own history as association to Kipchaks and use the name like Bey-Pars. Which sounds more Turkish and accurate. Pars means panther. And Bey&Bay means "Lord".  Also there is a Kazakh movie about Baybars. A big budget film for it's time and produded with Russians.
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Jun-2008 at 10:16
Oh really? Sounds interesting! (Check your e-mail by the way!)
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  Quote jones89 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Jun-2008 at 11:35
Al Jassas: As I had suspected you have got confused between the 5th & 7th Crusade, which is an easy mistake to make as they are strikingly similar in some places.
 
Here is an excerpt about the 5th crusade:
 
"These delays prove fatal. Abu Tahir reorganises the Egyptian fleet in Alexandria. He is keen to prevent the junction of Bohemond and the Venetians, aware that he is now more powerful than either of these groups separately. He decides to concentrate on the Venetians first. Knowing they would expect an attack upstream, the forces of Abu Tahir and al-Hadi sail up the Rosetta branch of the Nile, to descend downstream on the Italians. As the Christians loot and despoil Fariskur the Assassin forces move into position. The battle is joined at Sharimshah. By using the canal the Egyptian ships are able to cut off the Christian forces, and the sluices are opened onto the lowlands. The Frankish forces are caught in the flood. The foot soldiers are annihilated as they stumble through the mire. A few Venetian ships manage to get away, but most are captured."
 
I'm now no longer confused about the things you've posted, although when you claimed the flooding plan was Aybak's you clearly got very confused, as they are 2 different crusades a couple of decades apart....hope this clears things up for anyone else who was confused! Cool


Edited by jones89 - 09-Jun-2008 at 11:37
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