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"CHINA'S 'SMILING ANGEL IN WHEELCHAIR' Olympics

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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: "CHINA'S 'SMILING ANGEL IN WHEELCHAIR' Olympics
    Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 18:53
Originally posted by gcle2003

What happened? Who got hurt? How badly? Let's be objective about this. Is kicking someone in the ankle as bad as chopping their head of? A sense of proportion is needed here.
Just stick to the facts, or facts as best as known, which is what's reported, and that won't be an issue.
 
Leave it to others to blow it up or play it down as they wish.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

I said that was 'the impression many people had been giving', not that it was in a specific post.
We were discussing Temujin's response to Killabee's here.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

People were leaping to their feet accusing the protesters of all sorts of things, and nobody had pointed out that maybe the girl shares some of the blame. It's that absence I'm pointing to: I can't provide an instance of something not being there.
Before you can blame someone, you got to identify what the misdeed is.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Not that I would impute much blame to her personally because I doubt she had much choice in the matter, but the organisers of the relay certainly share some of the blame. Maybe Chinese athletes shouldn't have been carrying the torch through France (or any country but China) in the first place.
Then why suggest she got any blame in the first place?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Yes. Later. Thousands of years later.
1928 to 1936?  Don't seem that long.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

You're the one that said 'It's history' as if dismissing it. I agreed with you it was history, but I don't think that makes it unimportant.
Not dismissing but putting it into context.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Exactly. You were wrong to say it was akin. The institution of the torch and the relay started with the Berlin Games in 1936. Modern rocketry did not start with the V2. Hence the two are not akin.
Read carefully again - it's "the modern rocketry developed after WW2".
This refers to post-WW2 developments in modern rocketry, not modern rocketry developed only after WW2.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Commercialism doesn't kill people. Nationalism does.
It's nationalism outside the Games that kill.  Commercialism outside the Games led to destruction of much natural environment, not to mention waging war for oil/resources in the guise of war on terrorism or other excuses.
 
And don't forget the dopings.
 
Commercialism is more pervasive and more malignant to sports than nationalism.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

It's supporting one nation against another.
They didn't support Timor Leste or Hungary because of they loved these particular nations or hate others, but because of humanitarian reasons - these countries were victims.


Edited by snowybeagle - 21-Apr-2008 at 18:56
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 10:27
Originally posted by snowybeagle

Originally posted by gcle2003

People were leaping to their feet accusing the protesters of all sorts of things, and nobody had pointed out that maybe the girl shares some of the blame. It's that absence I'm pointing to: I can't provide an instance of something not being there.
Before you can blame someone, you got to identify what the misdeed is.
Agreed. That cuts both ways.
Originally posted by gcle2003

Not that I would impute much blame to her personally because I doubt she had much choice in the matter, but the organisers of the relay certainly share some of the blame. Maybe Chinese athletes shouldn't have been carrying the torch through France (or any country but China) in the first place.
Then why suggest she got any blame in the first place?
I didn't. I simply pointed out that the issue hadn't been raised. Whether she was forced to take part or not I don't actually know (and I don't know if anyone else here knows), but it's a legitimate issue to raise.
 
Certainly the fact that someone is disabled doesn't mean he or she should be exempt from any possibility of criticism, which is what I understand Temujin's point to be.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Yes. Later. Thousands of years later.
1928 to 1936?  Don't seem that long.
The Olympic flame was introduced in antiquity, at least theoretically in 776 BC. The torch was introduced in 1936 AD. According to my arithmetic that's 2,712 years.
Originally posted by gcle2003

You're the one that said 'It's history' as if dismissing it. I agreed with you it was history, but I don't think that makes it unimportant.
Not dismissing but putting it into context.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Exactly. You were wrong to say it was akin. The institution of the torch and the relay started with the Berlin Games in 1936. Modern rocketry did not start with the V2. Hence the two are not akin.
Read carefully again - it's "the modern rocketry developed after WW2".
This refers to post-WW2 developments in modern rocketry, not modern rocketry developed only after WW2.
Modern rocketry - i.e. liquid-fuelled rockets - started before WW2. Military rocketry in general started long before that.
Originally posted by gcle2003

Commercialism doesn't kill people. Nationalism does.
It's nationalism outside the Games that kill.  Commercialism outside the Games led to destruction of much natural environment, not to mention waging war for oil/resources in the guise of war on terrorism or other excuses.
Yes but let's stick to the topic. The Olympics has steadily been ruined by nationalism: the original Olympics were specifically designed to celebrate the community of all the athletes. Commercialism has made more money available to athletes from poor countries, simply because given commercial motives you do not care what nationality and athlete is.
 
And don't forget the dopings.
Precisely. By far the worst doping scandals have involved Soviet-era communist countries, for whom fostering nationalism was a political aim to support the regimes.
 
And incidentally China has been as concerned in doping stories as any country. Remember 'Ma's army'?
 
Commercialism is more pervasive and more malignant to sports than nationalism.
Why? It means the best athletes get higher rewards, irrespective of their country of origin, which means the athletes are even more motivated to do better. And the worst result is that you're exposed to more advertising.
 
How does it hurt sports if athletes carry a Nike logo on their singlets or their shoes?
 
The world's most commercialised sports - tennis, golf, angling, motor-racing, cycling - still pull in most spectators: how has commercialisation damaged them?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

It's supporting one nation against another.
They didn't support Timor Leste or Hungary because of they loved these particular nations or hate others, but because of humanitarian reasons - these countries were victims.
That the cause is a good one doesn't stop it being nationalist/political.
 
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  Quote Styrbiorn Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 22-Apr-2008 at 10:40
Originally posted by gcle2003



Yes but let's stick to the topic. The Olympics has steadily been ruined by nationalism: the original Olympics were specifically designed to celebrate the community of all the athletes. Commercialism has made more money available to athletes from poor countries, simply because given commercial motives you do not care what nationality and athlete is.

Indeed. The rampant nationalism surrounding the 2008 games has totally put me off from watching. I'm afraid the whole concept of the Olympic games is going to be ruined should this escalate.


Edited by Styrbiorn - 22-Apr-2008 at 10:46
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 00:35
the status symbol of hosting the olympics brings in such political > nationalistic dimensions to the games to start with. Why did the PRC get the games? it was a welcome matt from the rest of the world, at the same time a chance for the PRC to show they are walking amongst the big league. I think we did this too soon, our leaders closed their eyes for the trade dollar and right now the PR train wreck has shown egg on their faces as much as that of the CCP. Pretending everything is ok, doesnt mean other issues simply fade away. Economic growth is meaningless without political freedoms.
 
The (mainly reactive) nationalism surrounding these games will spoil the party more so than any protester that set it off or beyond any gain for the CCP - after it had intitally encouraged it for its own domestic political gain. I hope that everyone gets their deserves.
 


Edited by Leonidas - 23-Apr-2008 at 00:37
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 02:00
Originally posted by gcle2003

Agreed. That cuts both ways.
Okay, we got press reports and pictures showing someone physically attacking her.
What have anyone got to show she is supposed to be guilty of something?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

I didn't. I simply pointed out that the issue hadn't been raised. Whether she was forced to take part or not I don't actually know (and I don't know if anyone else here knows), but it's a legitimate issue to raise.
Whether she was forced to take part is irrelevant.
We're talking about the insinuation associating her and Nazism.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Certainly the fact that someone is disabled doesn't mean he or she should be exempt from any possibility of criticism, which is what I understand Temujin's point to be.
That might be what he intended, but that's not what he posted.
Killabee said the attack on a person in a wheelchair is sick to watch, as attacks on innocent Han and Hui shopkeepers in Tibet.
 
Temujin questioned why a disabled person cannot be a Nazi.
 
If there is no suggestion that she should even be a Nazi in the first place, why bring it up?
 
There's a lot of other things a disabled person can be, but unless there is something to suggest he/she is one, bringing it up is irrelevant.
 
It's like introducing a new colleague at the office, and say, "This is Jane, she's never been raped."
 
This is just weaseling with words.
 
Nobody has said she was supposed to be immune to criticism.
But if someone wants to say she's not to be immune, then first suggest what she's supposed to be critisized for and provide the basis for it.
 
Which Temujin has never done when he introduced Nazism into it.
 
The Olympic flame was introduced in antiquity, at least theoretically in 776 BC. The torch was introduced in 1936 AD. According to my arithmetic that's 2,712 years.
When the Olympic was revived in 1896, the Flame was not.
It was re-introduced in 1928.  The modern Flame is derived from the ancient Flame, the Relay from the Modern Flame.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

You're the one that said 'It's history' as if dismissing it. I agreed with you it was history, but I don't think that makes it unimportant.
Not dismissing but putting it into context.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Modern rocketry - i.e. liquid-fuelled rockets - started before WW2. Military rocketry in general started long before that.
There's modern rocketry before WW2, and modern rocketry after WW2.
The post clearly refers to the latter, which made use of German V-2 technology.
The V-2 technology was a milestone in  modern rocketry and significant enough to denote a new phase.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Yes but let's stick to the topic. The Olympics has steadily been ruined by nationalism: the original Olympics were specifically designed to celebrate the community of all the athletes. Commercialism has made more money available to athletes from poor countries, simply because given commercial motives you do not care what nationality and athlete is.
Commercialism has been more subversive than nationalism in the Games.
The original Olympics were restricted to only the Hellenes.
This is the modern Olympics.
 
You don't want to see national flags in the Games, I don't want to see Coca-Cola or Visa.
 
Don't forget much of the money from commercialism to the poor countries actually come when where the corporations reap from "low costs" in poor countries in the first place.
 
 
 
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Precisely. By far the worst doping scandals have involved Soviet-era communist countries, for whom fostering nationalism was a political aim to support the regimes.
It's worse when the likes of Ben Johnson and Marion Jones did it without "nationalism" forcing them.
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

Why? It means the best athletes get higher rewards
Do not confuse the athlete's prize for winning the race and his price for product endorsements.
 
If it is really his reward, then he would be entitled to it even though he refuses to have anything to do with product endorsement or allow his pictures taken for any publicity purposes.
 
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

How does it hurt sports if athletes carry a Nike logo on their singlets or their shoes?
And how does it hurt sports if athletes carry their national flag on their singlets?
 
Originally posted by gcle2003

That the cause is a good one doesn't stop it being nationalist/political.
Nope, it just doesn't make it safer from people who got a bone to pick with nationalism.
The last thing on the minds on those who gave standing ovation to Timor Leste delegation is nationalism.
 
Indonesia is neither a military nor economic threat to Australia.  There's no basis for accusing the moral support to Timor Leste on nationalistic agenda.


Edited by snowybeagle - 23-Apr-2008 at 03:14
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 03:19
Originally posted by Leonidas

Economic growth is meaningless without political freedoms.
Economic growth in countries like China is what brings about greater political freedoms.
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

I hope that everyone gets their deserves.
So do I ... so do I ...
 
I suspect it is a truism anyway.  It's just that it happens either in an unexpected way, or it happens without us knowing.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 04:14
Originally posted by snowybeagle

Originally posted by Leonidas

Economic growth is meaningless without political freedoms.
Economic growth in countries like China is what brings about greater political freedoms.
 like? the PRC has done no real political change.In tibet or in China proper
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 04:33
Originally posted by Leonidas

Originally posted by snowybeagle

Originally posted by Leonidas

Economic growth is meaningless without political freedoms.
Economic growth in countries like China is what brings about greater political freedoms.
like? the PRC has done no real political change.In tibet or in China proper
More PRC citizens had been allowed to travel and move abroad than ever before, and the number keeps growing.
 
In urban areas, there is a growing clout from middle-class citizenry that saw emergence of independents running for office.
 
Unlike before, people are now better able to protest against illegal land seizures for developments, including those attempted by members of the local CCP chapters.
 
Power and wealth are inseparable.  When the distribution of wealth changes, so does the balance of power.
 
The crazy thing in China is even some of the newly wealthy people are joining the CCP - membership still has its benefits.  And this is changing the nature of the CCP from the inside.
 
Empty slogans don't fill the stomach.
 
The reasons why communists got into power in Russia and in China were because of the hungry.
 
Going by Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, once the basic needs for food and safety has been met, people will naturally demand for more, and further up the pyramid will be political rights.
 
There is no way a country with a thriving economy with rising middle class can withhold political rights from them.
 
Considering the history of most wealthier democracies in the world today where political rights for every individual is enshrined, it followed a similar pattern.  A rebalancing of power from an exclusive elite to the middle-class, and a long process before political rights finally trickled to the poorest.
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 04:44

forward thinking, yes the rising middle class is a elephant in the room, but can you predict the CCP's reaction to, lets say power sharing or evolution into something more open? expecting them to step aside or allow more freedoms which could eventually question them is a stretch at this point in time. I hope my doubts are wrong

Another biggie around the corner, if not now, is the growing differnce in wealth between the urban and the rural as well as inflation. Freedom of movement is one thing, freedom of expression, information, political affiliation and religoius practice is another.
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 05:01
Originally posted by Leonidas

forward thinking, yes the rising middle class is a elephant in the room, but can you predict the CCP's reaction to, lets say power sharing or evolution into something more open? expecting them to step aside or allow more freedoms which could eventually question them is a stretch at this point in time. I hope my doubts are wrong
While I hope the transition will be peaceful, it is perhaps too much to expect it to be entirely trouble-free - few entities in power ever relinquished their monopoly without a fight.
 
The future is in the hands of the younger generations of party cadres.  While previously, most authoritarian regimes held on to power through the military, the PLA today is no longer the preferred route to success for the younger generations, weakening the symbiotic link necessary for the same mechanism that kept such regimes in power.
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

Another biggie around the corner, if not now, is the growing differnce in wealth between the urban and the rural as well as inflation.
Wealth gap between the masses and the middle class is certainly the biggest threat to the social order and to the future.  It is a clear and present danger.
 
Unfortunately, some of China's parvenus seemed to be ignorant of this reality and instead chose to live in decadence behind a false sense of security in newly built barricaded enclaves.  If the poor do riot in the future, those enclaves would be their graveyards instead of sanctuary.
 
Originally posted by Leonidas

Freedom of movement is one thing, freedom of expression, information, political affiliation and religoius practice is another.
China's educated have discovered the Internet.  Despite attempts by the authorities to retain control, they are learning it is an impossible task and is slowly resigning to having to come to terms with it.
 
Actually, I observe that most of the younger generations of Chinese today are more concerned with getting rich, and then have freedom of expression, rather than the religious freedom or political affiliation.


Edited by snowybeagle - 23-Apr-2008 at 07:59
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 23-Apr-2008 at 07:17
the poor do riot, reports do sometimes come out of unrest in rural China, IIRC Hunan province not that long ago. Not only do they do this beucaue of their living standrds but local corruption and heavy handed authority. Mind you we never know all the root causes on the outside.
 
Im not sure how much debate or information does make it through the middle class, I presume that the vast majority do not get alternative views from what is proscribed by the CCP, certianly not on the more sensative topics like Tibet. They way i see the standard PRC reaction, is one of shock that such a thing is even an issue and that the fault lies with foreigners be it their media or the 'Dalia clique'. This seems an attack on them and thats what the CCP has been promoting for their own benefit.
 
There isnt even any question of legitimacy or equility (that is Han vs Tibetan choice in the matter of their mutual relationship). While our media can control the debate by choosing its boundaries, the limitations in the CCP world is so strict one can question the existance of any debate on the fundamentals of such issues.
 
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 22:05
Originally posted by snowybeagle

If there is no suggestion that she should even be a Nazi in the first place, why bring it up?


why was she brought up in the first place? why is she called an angel? whats that got to do with anything? if the author calls her angel without giving references, i call her Nazi without giving references. she was not the only torch-bearer beign attacked, why focus on her?
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 24-Apr-2008 at 23:21
Originally posted by Temujin

why was she brought up in the first place?
She was the person attacked.
 
Originally posted by Temujin

why is she called an angel?
For protecting the Torch she was carrying.
 
Originally posted by Temujin

if the author calls her angel without giving references, i call her Nazi without giving references.
Which author?  The originator of this thread did not call her an angel, he was quoting a news article.
 
And no, even if a poster here called her an angel without giving references, it only gives you the right to dispute calling her an angel, but it does not give you the right to call her a Nazi without giving references.
 
Originally posted by Temujin

she was not the only torch-bearer beign attacked, why focus on her?
This thread is about this particular incident.  If you have reason to think this thread should not even be in AE, you are free to mention it.
If you think other attack incidents should be similarly highlighted, you are free to do so.
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  Quote gcle2003 Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 10:34
Originally posted by snowybeagle

Power and wealth are inseparable.  When the distribution of wealth changes, so does the balance of power.
As a generalisation that is true. However it overlooks the fact that wealth and power accrue mostly to the people who already have it. Unless constraints are put on the accumulation of power, the natural tendency of government is towards oligarchy.
The crazy thing in China is even some of the newly wealthy people are joining the CCP - membership still has its benefits.  And this is changing the nature of the CCP from the inside.
 
Empty slogans don't fill the stomach.
But they distract from it, as authoritarian regimes have shown throughout history. Orwell's Animal Farm and 1984 depict accurately what happens.
The reasons why communists got into power in Russia and in China were because of the hungry.
Don't know about China but that certainly isn't true about the Soviet Union.
 
Going by Abraham Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, once the basic needs for food and safety has been met, people will naturally demand for more, and further up the pyramid will be political rights.
Which is why those who wish to deny political rights make a point of raising feelings of insecurity by focussing on dangers and threats of interference, either from abroad, or from malcontents and 'counter-revolutionaries'. Of course it is even more effective if they can link malcontents at home with foreign subversion.
There is no way a country with a thriving economy with rising middle class can withhold political rights from them.
The standard way of tackling that threat to the autocracy is by raising the working classes against the middle (which is essentially what happened in bringing about the Bolshevik revolution, and is at the heart of Marxism in general).
 
Considering the history of most wealthier democracies in the world today where political rights for every individual is enshrined, it followed a similar pattern.  A rebalancing of power from an exclusive elite to the middle-class, and a long process before political rights finally trickled to the poorest.
 
Well, that's the route to achieving a wealthy democracy, certainly. But it isn't that easy to achieve, and it certainly isn't inevitable.
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  Quote Temujin Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 25-Apr-2008 at 19:05
Originally posted by snowybeagle

The reasons why communists got into power in Russia and in China were because of the hungry.
 


which hungry? you mean those hwo starved after the commies took over? commies only took over because they won the civil war, backed by the evil western Soviet Union.

Originally posted by snowybeagle

For protecting the Torch she was carrying.


that doesn't make one an angel unless you don't know what an angel is. besides it was her bodyguards who protected the torch. she was just carrying it

Which author?  The originator of this thread did not call her an angel, he was quoting a news article.


news have authors too.....



Edited by Temujin - 25-Apr-2008 at 19:09
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2008 at 04:32
Originally posted by Temijun

that doesn't make one an angel unless you don't know what an angel is. besides it was her bodyguards who protected the torch. she was just carrying it
...
news have authors too.....
One protestor got through to her while the other guards were occupied, so she did play an active role in protecting the torch.
 
Like I said, you are free to disagree whether she deserves to be called an angel, but it does not give you any right to call her a Nazi.
 
A better conduct than this is expected from an AE moderator.


Edited by snowybeagle - 26-Apr-2008 at 04:33
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 26-Apr-2008 at 11:02
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/2008/04/nationalists-paris-torch-relay-hero-now-a-traitor/

Hero to Traitor: The Difference a Day Makes

Jin%20Jing%20in%20ParisAfter excoriating a respected news editor for advocating greater freedom of speech and venting their anger on a Chinese student at Duke University for trying to promote dialogue between pro-China and pro-Tibet protestors, Chinese nationalists have turned their sights on a new, and frankly shocking, target: Jin Jing, the wheelchair-bound fencer declared a national hero last week after using her frail body to protect the Olympic flame from protesters in Paris. Jins crime? Expressing doubts over plans for a boycott of French retailer Carrefoura boycott motivated in large part by the treatment she received in Paris.

Lanzhou-based blogger Liang Fafu wrote a post examining the nationalists demonization of Jin. Liangs commentary is no longer available on his blog but has been re-posted by someone at 6571.net. Translated by CDT:

Below is a news item:

2008-04-16 14:24:00 Source: Xinmin.cn. Netizen Comments: 480. Summary: Olympic torch bearer Jin Jing has publicly said she hopes netizens will be prudent in handling calls to boycott Carrefour as the first victims of such a boycott are likely to be the many Chinese who work for Carrefour.

Below is some of the commentary from netizens:

Netizen from Jinan, Shandong: Jin Jing is bullshit! Speaking on behalf of Carrefour. I think shes a traitor.

Netizen from Beijing: Torch bearer Jin Jing, I earnestly request you to shut your mouth. Youve done your duty already. Dont go around making irresponsible remarks. First shes missing a leg, now shes missing a brain.

Netizen from Dalian: This c*nts attitude is the same one the Qing rulers had after the Eight Allied Forces came. What was the result then? Are you capable of representing the Great Han Race? Do you what youre supposed to do!

Netizen from Chengdu: Someone goes to France once and its like she thinks shes French. Jin Jing speaks with the voice of an utterly brainless evil-eyed wolf traitor. No wonder her original work unit wanted to get rid of her.

Netizen from Jiangmen, Guangdong: Jin Jing??? A cultureless, brainless stupid c*nt!!! And shes a torch bearerI demand we rip the torch from her hands!!!

Look at the face of these nationalists. A few days ago, Jin Jing was a hero because of her courage in the face of attacks from [splittists], but today she becomes a traitor because her conscience led her to point out reality: a boycott of Carrefour will harm the Chinese people who work there. Even if shes wrong, its her right to freely express what she thinks. Why curse her so crudely?

In my opinion, the harm done to her here is worse by far than the harm done her by the [splittists]. These nationalists are attacking her for her handicap, launching inhumane personal assaults on her.

In the eyes of the nationalists, Chinese workers losing their jobslosing the money they need to support their familiesis a matter of no consequence. For love of country, everybody should be willing to starve to death before going to work for a foreign company. This leaves me speechless.

To use such cutting rhetoric to attack a handicapped girl, to assault her on the basis of her handicap-where has these nationalists humanity gone? As long as you love your country, its OK to dispense with humanity, dispense with basic respect for other people, dispense with basic respect for the dignity and spirit of a handicapped girl?

From this you can see just what kind of thing a nationalist is.

Ironically, the New York Times has just run a long piece on Chinas love for Jin Jing: Sympathy on the Streets, But Not for the Tibetans

 
All which goes to show mindlessness isn't restricted to any nationality.
I just hope rational-minded Chinese like Jin Jing will prevail and stand firm against nonsensical people driven by irrational emotions, or a new generation of Mao's Red Guards will appear.
 
Moderates always got an unfair label of not taking a strong stance, which is not true.
 
Moderates aren't moderate 'cos they try to balance themselves between extremes, but because they reject extremism in the first place.  The moderate path is not a middle path but a path based on rationality and on clear conscience.


Edited by snowybeagle - 26-Apr-2008 at 11:06
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  Quote Leonidas Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 08:15
the tale of the  two women
 

Olympic flame shines on one Chinese woman and burns another

A wheelchair user is praised for protecting the torch in Paris, and a student is vilified online after landing in the middle of a debate over Tibet.

By Ching-Ching Ni, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
April 28, 2008
BEIJING -- As the Olympic flame continues its tumultuous journey around the world, the lives of two young Chinese women whose brief gestures during the torch relay were captured on video have emerged center stage in the black-and-white world of Chinese public opinion.

One is Jin Jing, a one-legged former fencer in a wheelchair who, with her tiny body, defended the torch from pro-Tibet protesters trying to snatch it from her on the streets of Paris. The images of her action have been disseminated on the Internet, and she has been elevated to national hero status and dubbed an "angel in a wheelchair."

The other is Wang Qianyuan, a newly arrived student from China at Duke University in North Carolina who turned up in the middle of a videotaped shouting match during a pro-Tibet campus rally on the day the torch passed through San Francisco. She is now viewed as a traitor.

The tales of the two women, who have become well known beyond their imagination, illustrate the sweep of cyberspace and the deep emotions here over issues of national pride.

"Chinese people all over the country salute you and thank you Jin Jing! Those who want to split our country will never succeed," reads one Internet chat-room message.

"This traitor hurt the feelings of the entire Chinese nation. She deserves the death penalty!" another chatter wrote, referring to Wang.

In Wang's case, the flaring tempers facilitated by the ease of communication among an Internet-savvy generation have elicited a sort of mob mentality. Even the Communist Party is now trying to curb the outrage for fear it could spiral out of control. But Beijing should not be surprised by what is happening, some observers say.

"This just shows that Chinese people have lived too long in a world with unbalanced information," said Zhou Xiaozheng, a sociologist at People's University in Beijing. "After listening too long to only one side of the story, we have developed zero tolerance for a difference of opinion.

"In this mind-set, you are either on our side or you deserve to be stepped on forever."

For Wang, 20, it has proved a rude awakening. When she moved to North Carolina for her freshman year, she thought she had escaped limits on speech and actions.

"I never expected something like this would happen to me in the States," Wang said in a phone interview. "If they can shut me up, it will be just like another Cultural Revolution. People who try to speak up will be labeled as traitors. It's just a vicious cycle."

So what did the slender, ponytailed woman do to create so many enemies that within hours videos and pictures were posted on the Internet with the word "traitor" across her forehead, along with her telephone and personal identification numbers and directions to her home in China?

According to Wang, she merely sought to encourage dialogue between hundreds of flag-waving Chinese students and a couple of dozen pro-Tibet demonstrators carrying pictures of the Dalai Lama who were shouting at each other.

To critics who believe that Tibet should remain part of China and that the Dalai Lama is bent on splitting off the Himalayan region, Wang was betraying her motherland just by standing on the side of the students holding the Tibetan flag. It didn't help that she also wrote "Save Tibet" on the back of a fellow student. Wang said she did so on condition that the student would talk to the other side.

"I think the Chinese and Tibetan sides were both very emotional," said Wang, who hopes to study psychology and economics. "The Olympics can come and go. Those problems and issues will remain. I just hope people can start to think from a different perspective."

Scott Savitt, a visiting scholar at Duke who had spent many years working in China, said, "I watched her do this and the Chinese part of me is saying this is bad; she should stop.

"Then I thought: She's in America. This is the education process. She's doing what she's supposed to do."

On the other side of the world, Wang's parents are paying the price for their daughter's freedom in America.

Since their personal information was exposed on the Internet, they have gone into hiding. An Internet photo shows what appears to be a bucket of feces on the doorstep of their home in the eastern Chinese city of Qingdao.

Angry netizens even accused Wang of working with the CIA to sell out her country in exchange for a permanent residency card. A strongly worded apology letter, said to be from Wang's father, a Communist Party member, appeared on Chinese websites begging forgiveness. "Wang Qianyuan will always be our daughter," it read. "She wants to tell everybody in this clear-cut political issue she is wrong. . . . Please give her a chance to make amends."

Wang, who has been in touch with her mother by phone, strongly denies the authenticity of the letter.

"My mom said it's definitely not him," Wang said. "My father would never do something like that without consulting me."

Jin, on the other hand, has been bombarded by a different kind of spotlight. Since returning home to Shanghai, she has been treated as a superstar, mobbed by fans and reporters, racing from one public appearance to another.

The 27-year-old lost a leg because of a tumor when she was 9. At 20, she joined the Shanghai wheelchair fencing team, but she no longer competes. She later worked temporarily as a hotel telephone operator but has since struggled to find a job that can accommodate her special needs. Since she returned from Paris a hero, job offers have been pouring in from businesses and government agencies.

"I haven't decided on anything yet," Jin said in a phone interview. "I am not a hero. I am just a protector of the torch."

Yet even in her case, anger has mixed with pride.

Jin's fans have initiated a global hunt for the man believed to have attacked her in Paris and have focused their suspicions on a Tibetan immigrant living in Salt Lake City. The immigrant, who said he was the victim of a case of mistaken identity, said he was not in Paris, but did acknowledge going to San Francisco to support the Tibetan independence camp. He has received death threats, he said, and has moved to a hotel for security reasons.

"Even if he's not the one who attacked Jin Jing, his claim that China lacks freedom of religious and freedom of expression will make him the scapegoat for the real attacker," one chat-room participant wrote.

France is also the subject of fury because the most confrontational and embarrassing leg of the torch relay played out there. Many ordinary Chinese plan to boycott the popular French supermarket chain Carrefour and French-made goods, especially during the coming May Day holiday.

As damage control, French President Nicolas Sarkozy issued a letter of apology to Jin last week and sent a top envoy to China to kiss her hand in public and invite her to return to Paris for a proper visit.

But the French might need to kiss a lot more than one hand to restore public goodwill here.

"Personally I have already stopped using French cosmetics, and I know all the Chinese ladies in my company are doing the same," one Chinese blogger wrote. "I know the boycott thing might be childish and immature, and it does no good to both sides in the long run. But other than that, we have no better way to express our outrage and disgust."
 
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  Quote snowybeagle Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 28-Apr-2008 at 08:50
"This just shows that Chinese people have lived too long in a world with unbalanced information," said Zhou Xiaozheng, a sociologist at People's University in Beijing. "After listening too long to only one side of the story, we have developed zero tolerance for a difference of opinion.

"In this mind-set, you are either on our side or you deserve to be stepped on forever."
Actually, even people who lived in democratic societies could also develop zero tolerance for difference in opinions.  However, the difference lies in the actual reactions to difference of opinions.  Few go to the extreme of threatening those who disagree, and fewer still took to physical violence.
 
It is sad to read of rational Chinese citizens having to go into hiding from fellow countryment.
 
"I never expected something like this would happen to me in the States," Wang said in a phone interview. "If they can shut me up, it will be just like another Cultural Revolution. People who try to speak up will be labeled as traitors. It's just a vicious cycle."
A stronger message is needed to prevent the mindless demagouge from hijacking the right to define who is a traitor and who is a patriot.
 
People like Ms Grace Wang needs encouragement to affirm that taking the rational approach does her country more credit than mindless rantings.
 
As damage control, French President Nicolas Sarkozy issued a letter of apology to Jin last week and sent a top envoy to China to kiss her hand in public and invite her to return to Paris for a proper visit.
I believe the letter expressed regret, but not apology.  From what I read from my local papers, the envoy Poncelet said apology should come from the assailant, whom I wondered whether was ever actually arrested or charged by the authorities.
 
On the one hand, it is technically correct that the responsibility for the assault lies with the culprit.
On the other hand, it doesn't hurt as a host to offer gracious apology for the bad experience to a guest, without legally assuming responsibility for the assault itself.
 
"Personally I have already stopped using French cosmetics, and I know all the Chinese ladies in my company are doing the same," one Chinese blogger wrote. "I know the boycott thing might be childish and immature, and it does no good to both sides in the long run. But other than that, we have no better way to express our outrage and disgust."
Well, it's a start, but hopefully, they will learn more from this experience.
 
The decision to boycott in itself is neither childish nor immature, and is a valid expression of outrage and disgust, on a personal level.
 
Crossing the line into physical violence or vandalism of homes is childish and immature, not to mention wrong.


Edited by snowybeagle - 28-Apr-2008 at 08:54
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