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Paul
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Topic: The Battle of Quatre Bras Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 19:14 |
Originally posted by Peteratwar
He won both.
Rolica - forced Delaborde to retreat & prevented Loison linking up. Grant you not his best battle but it was his first against the French
Quatre Bras - Napoleon's comments on Ney's efforts 'On a perdu La France'
The French didn't believe they won either battle and they were there! |
Trouble is Delaborde won too. He was sent to delay Wellington while Junot's forces mustered. He did. He Held up a larger force for virtually the whole day and retreated successfully.
Mission accomplished better that Junot could have hoped.
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Knights
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Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 21:09 |
How would one word the result then? The problem I'm still having is with saying that is was a defeat on Wellington's part. Delaborde accomplished his goal of delaying Wellington and then retreating to Junot.
Does one side have to defeat the other for it to be a victory? (That may sound like an absurd question...)
Just a few thoughts
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deadkenny
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Posted: 15-Apr-2008 at 23:03 |
I think part of the problem we're running into is related to the complexity of 'battles' vs. simply try to 'pigeon hole' results into simple win / loss / draw categories. It is theoretically possible for both sides to accomplish their objectives, or for neither to do so. Sometimes the immediate objective(s) can be rendered irrelevant in the face of other events. Thus I believe a more complex analysis is necessary in these cases. That is why I jumped into the Quatre Bras debate in the first place.
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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Temujin
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Posted: 16-Apr-2008 at 20:32 |
Ok, so what is your suggestion? fromw hat you wrote i ahd the feeling you try to protray Wellington as supreme victor and Ney as crappy loser.
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deadkenny
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Posted: 17-Apr-2008 at 00:41 |
Originally posted by Temujin
Ok, so what is your suggestion? fromw hat you wrote i ahd the feeling you try to protray Wellington as supreme victor and Ney as crappy loser.
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Lol. Well my first suggestion would be to actually read what I wrote. Everything that I have posted has been trying to refute the claims that Ney clearly won at Quatre Bras. If anything is clear, it's that Ney didn't win a clear cut victory. The one article that I posted called it a strategic draw and a British tactical victory. I guess my entire point is that this battle is a good example of where it is difficult to simply chalk it up as a simple win or loss.
From my perspective for the most important point is that it was a missed opportunity for the French. Ultimately it cost them the campaign, but there was still quite a bit of fighting between the end of the day on the 16th and final defeat on the 18th. Clearly Napoleon had outmanoeuvered Wellington up the 15th. Wellington himself admitted as much. However, through some fine generalship on the 16th, combined with some mistakes on the other side, Wellington managed to 'dodge a bullet' (figuratively) at Quatre Bras. To me, that is a far more meaningful assessment than simply trying to apply an arbitrary label of 'win', 'loss' or 'draw'.
Edited by deadkenny - 17-Apr-2008 at 00:43
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"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
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Temujin
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Posted: 20-Apr-2008 at 19:47 |
but his position at Quatre-Bras was never threatened, he had only the 20.000 troops available he promised to Blcher, the bulk of his Army was still in the process of gathering. even if Ney with his insufficient forces had managed to inflict a defeat on him that wouldn't have changed anything eventually as Blcher wasn't decisively beaten and the bulk of Wellingtons Army wasn't assembled yet.
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Peteratwar
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Posted: 21-Apr-2008 at 10:46 |
Originally posted by Temujin
but his position at Quatre-Bras was never threatened, he had only the 20.000 troops available he promised to Blcher, the bulk of his Army was still in the process of gathering. even if Ney with his insufficient forces had managed to inflict a defeat on him that wouldn't have changed anything eventually as Blcher wasn't decisively beaten and the bulk of Wellingtons Army wasn't assembled yet.
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Ah, but Ney's job was to ensure Quatre Bras was held so that The Prussians could be crushed by troops attacking down that road. ney had considerable numerical supremacy for many hours and should have carried out his task easily and quickly. With the Prussians destroyed as a fighting force, Napoleon's full force would be turned on the army under Wellington's command with the intention of destroying that. Then Napoleon hoped he could persuade the Austrians and Russians to fall back and leave him in peace to rule France.
As it was Ney's blunder meant that whilst defeated, The Prussians still remained a viable force who could send troops to assist Wellington. That blunder destroyed Napoleon's strategy.
On a perdu La France
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