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Hand weapons

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John the Kern View Drop Down
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  Quote John the Kern Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Hand weapons
    Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 09:50

I know that this will have be covered before but what the hell. In a pre industrial battle of spear axe sword mace and bow, what position and with what weapons and tactic, fighting style would you prefer?

 

Myself as an archer id want my longbow and axe/knife combo and some light leather armour

 

 

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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 08-Mar-2005 at 12:33

Have to confess I am a Viking reenacter. On top of this I used to fence and am currently earning Japanese sword. So I suppose a sword would be my choice weapon. 

I've fought a few medievals, so don't have much respect for armour and would go for the light leather too. A spear by a million miles is the best combat weapon (practically every army in history can't be wrong) but leaves you vulnerable to missiles. The next most effective weapon, the long axe has the same problem.

So I'd go for the third best weapon combo, short sword and large round shield. Good missile defence, can parry a spear thrust and have a chance against a spearman, a long axe too. Have a big advantage over a double handed swordsman and you can flatten someone in armour with edge of your shiled with ease. Also you get to use a pattern welded viking sword, the finest ever made.



Edited by Paul
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 06:20

A couple of things:

1.  What do you folks mean by "light leather armor"?  Leather has been used as armor (and as a component of armor) for a long time, but its effectiveness varies widely, depending upon how it is processed and utilized.  Hardened leather (cuir-boulli) is rather effective.  Ordinary thick leather (say, an English Civil War buff coat) will turn a sword cut, but won't stop a thrust.

All things considered, I'd rather have something like a brigandine (metal plates rivetted inside a canvas jacket) or a "jack-of-plate" (similar to the brigandine, but with the plates stitched in place with thick cord, and with padding in the fabric as well).

2.  The most common sidearms for English longbowmen were the sword-and-buckler (which was a traditional fencing method of the yeomen anyway), and the maul (a large sledgehammer-like implement--not a military weapon, but extremely damaging to anything it hits nonetheless).

3.  Paul is correct in his analysis of the spear, but I would add other bladed polearms to the list--the Swiss/German halberd (helleparten), the English bill (especially the dreaded "Welsh hook"), the Italian bill (roncone), & the partisan (including many variants). 

4.  It is debatable as to whether or not the "pattern welded Viking sword" (many of which were actually Frankish ones made in the Rhineland anyway, FWIW) is the "finest" sword "ever made"--keep in mind that pattern-welded blades were largely replaced by homogenous steel ones which were made by those same Rhineland smiths.  Western sword authority Ewart Oakeshott goes into this stuff in some detail, in his classic Archeology of Weapons.

5.  The single-handed sword is typically regarded as a secondary weapon, unless it is used in conjunction with a shield--e.g., Iberian caetrati with falcata & caetra; Roman legionary with gladius & scutum; Spanish rodelero with espada & rodela; or Highland Scot with claymore (basket-hilt) & targe.

 



Edited by Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner
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  Quote Paul Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 09:06

By light leather I mean soft leather like a buff coat. No movement limitations or weight, less protection but better endurance.

Brigandines are very good but I heard the Spanish had trouble maintaining them in Mexico.

"4.  It is debatable as to whether or not the "pattern welded Viking sword" (many of which were actually Frankish ones made in the Rhineland anyway, FWIW) is the "finest" sword "ever made"--keep in mind that pattern-welded blades were largely replaced by homogenous steel ones which were made by those same Rhineland smiths.  Western sword authority Ewart Oakeshott goes into this stuff in some detail, in his classic Archeology of Weapons."

It's true they were replaced by homogenous steel but I'd question if this steel was better quality. I always thought it was because it was mass produceable and pattern welding one of the least cost effective methods of manufacturing a blade

It's definately debatable whether they were the best, unless you are including an aesthetic judgment in your statement, which I was. Wootz is marginally superior and pretty, but just not pretty enough!



Edited by Paul
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  Quote John the Kern Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 10:02
 The most common side arm of the english archer was either the falchion or a short hafted axe, the sword and buckler was a noble weapon and wasnt even used in the battle of the Hundred years war, it needs to much space
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 11:15

The sword and bucler combination wasn't a 'noble' wepaon both written and pictorial sources such as the Holkham bible show it in use by 'commoners' during the 14th & 15th Centuries.

Soldiers shown with sword&buckler include English archers. The falchion was commonly used together with a buckler or shield. On it's own it was of little use against any foe armed with a polearm or equiped with a shield and one hand weapon.

Take a look at the reconstructions by Heath in "Armies of the middle ages , volume 1" and Bartlett & Embleton in "English Longbowman 1330-1515".

 

 

 

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 13:36

Originally posted by John the Kern

 The most common side arm of the english archer was either the falchion or a short hafted axe, the sword and buckler was a noble weapon and wasnt even used in the battle of the Hundred years war, it needs to much space

John, 

I believe that Captain Gars has already posted what I wanted to say.

In any case, as already indicated by him, the sword-and-buckler was in fact a very common combo amongst common soldiers.  As I originally stated, it was a traditional fencing form of the yeomen, who, while they owned land, were not noblemen.

As for sword types, both straight double-edged types and single-edged backsword types (including variants of the falchion) were used.

But, I must confess that I don't understand your rationale for claiming that the use of sword-and-buckler in battle is limited because "it needs to (sic) much space".

Peace,

L_D

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 13:38

Paul,

I suspect that the pattern-welded swords didn't have to be sharpened as frequently, but that the homogenous ones were stronger overall.

A tradeoff, like everything else in weapon design.

Peace,

L_D

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 09-Mar-2005 at 13:39
Nice pics, btw...
"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


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  Quote John the Kern Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 09:53
 the buckler shiled in the context i know is small and made of metal, it is used in a vsweeping motion to deflect blows not stop them, also in a battle the lines get crushed together, there fore any weapon that needs a swinging motion need room that is not avilible there by leaving the user unprotected
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  Quote Gazi Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 12:58

I would have to go for a composite short bow combined with an iron mace and lamellar armour for protection.I would also need (what every Turk needs).....a Horse

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  Quote aknc Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 17-Mar-2005 at 14:23
would have to go for a Glaudius or two,chainmail armour and a wooden shield for protection.
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  Quote Guests Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 04:03

After spending dozens of hours training pike fighting I'd go for a long spear (about 2,5-3 m long). With pike it's easy to take out short weapons, although polearms might be a problem. Chainmail would propably be the armour of my choice combined with light helmet.

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  Quote Landsknecht_Doppelsoldner Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 07:06

Originally posted by John the Kern

 the buckler shiled in the context i know is small and made of metal, it is used in a vsweeping motion to deflect blows not stop them, also in a battle the lines get crushed together, there fore any weapon that needs a swinging motion need room that is not avilible there by leaving the user unprotected

If that was the case, then swords would be essentially useless too.  Considering that swords were the standard sidearm for pikemen, I doubt that the issue is that simple.

Not to mention the fact that the buckler can be manipulated both defensively and offensively in a variety of ways. 

"Who despises me and my praiseworthy craft,

I'll hit on the head that it resounds in his heart."


--Augustin Staidt, of the Federfechter (German fencing guild)
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  Quote John the Kern Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 18-Mar-2005 at 08:16

 true

Maybe i just dont like the buckelr and sword idea, and am trying to discredit it, anyway

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