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Kashmir and central Asia

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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Topic: Kashmir and central Asia
    Posted: 15-Feb-2013 at 11:54
you are posting the most Caucasoid indians you could find, that's not how most indians look even punjabis. Afghans and indians are very different looking from each other, there is no comparison, even if some afghans are dark they usually look the arab type dark, not indian. I have seen enough afghans and indians in my life to know the difference is huge, not the 19/20 difference you are talking about. Punjabis are also no way similar to afghans/pashtuns, while there are individual punjabis who can pass as pashtuns, they are no way in majority as you are portraying. Most punjabis are very indian looking, on average punjabis are just more robust version of other north indians, they dont look like pashtuns, kalash,Balochis etc.... In pakistan (punjab) pashtuns almost always stand out in the crowd, most pashtuns are known as goras in cities like Lahore, Rawalpindi etc... so you really dont know what are you talking about. I myself have lived in punjab.

As for kashmiries they are a mix of dardic people up north and punjabis, you would find both types of looks in them. however an average street punjabi is very different from kashmiries aswell


Edited by balochii - 15-Feb-2013 at 11:56
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  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2013 at 14:27
Originally posted by balochii

you are posting the most Caucasoid indians you could find, that's not how most indians look even punjabis. Afghans and indians are very different looking from each other, there is no comparison, even if some afghans are dark they usually look the arab type dark, not indian. I have seen enough afghans and indians in my life to know the difference is huge, not the 19/20 difference you are talking about. Punjabis are also no way similar to afghans/pashtuns, while there are individual punjabis who can pass as pashtuns, they are no way in majority as you are portraying. Most punjabis are very indian looking, on average punjabis are just more robust version of other north indians, they dont look like pashtuns, kalash,Balochis etc.... In pakistan (punjab) pashtuns almost always stand out in the crowd, most pashtuns are known as goras in cities like Lahore, Rawalpindi etc... so you really dont know what are you talking about. I myself have lived in punjab.

As for kashmiries they are a mix of dardic people up north and punjabis, you would find both types of looks in them. however an average street punjabi is very different from kashmiries aswell

Do the google search yourself I posted everything from the first page on images and gave you the key words.

For Afghan picture search the famous female geographic photo came up multiple times. Now that is the real picking out peculiar isolated photo.

Frankly none looked caucasoid. The American soldiers looked caucasoid. 

To some extent there is a difference between the man on the street and people from richer background. in general richer people like those you find in malls will look more punjabi than the poor people on the streets. In Kashmir also this is true. The majority on the streets and the richer minority look different and gets reflected in the srinagar protest photos I posted.

There is a theory that blondes arose by sexual selection some 10 or 20000 years ago. Within india richer men would prefer to marry women with lighter complexion and over even a few generations this can skew peoples looks. In older times you can change higher caste for richer men and this is a possible reason for differences in looks even when the gene pool is same. So your skin colour genes would segregate differently from mitochondrial and y chr haplogroups. 

A lot of skin colour is also epigenetics. So norwegians and icelanders tan more than germans although only 1000 years separate them.

Anyone living in tropics will tan heavier in each passing generation. So mesopotamian arabs and egyptians are much darker than more northern populations and more recent arrivals of iranic origin in arabia. Southern iraqis look very different from northern syrians.


Edited by Venkytalks - 15-Feb-2013 at 14:40
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2013 at 14:34
^ who cares about google search? I know how indians look and I know how afghans look, I meet them almost on a daily basis

I never said they look white or european, but most afghans have a west asian/middle eastern type look, which most indians lack. there is a certain percentage of south/centrals asians who can pass as white or eastern european, espeically among the kids who show coloured eyes and hair on a very high percentage. I have never seen a indian with those features, even among punjabis
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  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 15-Feb-2013 at 23:20












The above pictures turned up on a randon google search of Khazakhstan people. 

Now these are people who would truly be called intermediate between Europeans and Asians - There are some who would pass for Germanic, some who would pass for Iranians, some who would pass for Mongols.

Very very few who who would ever be called South Asians. These people if found on the streets of Delhi would be considered foreigners.

Now I have been to Kashmir valley and Kashmiris dont look like these.

I have also been to Kabul and Afghans dont look like these. 

I also meet Afghans who come to Delhi on a regular basis and they dont look like these.

Yes, definitely some of these people (and Uzbeks) must have come down to Afghanistan and the Swat valley and might be responsible for the occasional blonde hair and blue or green eyes seen in Afghans. Probable sources are from the Jushan invasion from Uzbekistan or mercenaries from Greek invasion - or more likely a combination of both.

If you look at Iranians, few or almost none have these kind of features. Iranians came from Turkmenistan and Afghans are also from the same area. Probably, Afghans are much closer to Iranians than Khazaks (who are the descendents of the Andronovo people of antiquity).

Khazakhstan despite its massive size is very thinly populated and has some 15 million people or so  - much much less than Afghanistan.

Kashmiris are nothing like these people. They are much closer to north Indians and Punjabis. You will never find this kind of stand out appearance in Kashmir at all - and that is abundantly visible in the street protest photos which I had posted earlier, where some 1000s of people are visible.

Now below are Uzbekistan people







And so on and so forth - the Uzbeks look intermediate between the Khazaks and the Afghans and Iranians. They also seem to have a lot more Mongol blood in them than Khazaks.

Uzbeks are much more populous than Khazaks with some 30 million of them. With Samarkhand and Bukhara straddling the silk route, they are obviously on the crossroads and are a total melting pot of multiple ethnicities.

If you do the same googling with Kyrgizthan, they look almost completely Mongol as do the Uigurs.

Kashmiris again look nothing like the Uzbeks. 

Kashmiris are SLIGHTLY CLOSER to Khazaks than North Indians. But Kashmiris are really far from being close to Khazaks at all.

They are very very close to being South Asians - in fact they ARE south Asians


Edited by Venkytalks - 15-Feb-2013 at 23:36
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 00:46
who is talking about kashmiries? like I said before kashmiries are a mix of dardics and south asians, they look mixed. also your are posting pics from Uzbekistan/Kazkhasthan, who was ever talking about that? Kashmiries are closer to south/central asia region, not proper central asia. South central asia means = pashtuns, dardics, afghans, kalash etc.. those people

Also again who is saying pashtuns look white? I have said pashtuns for the most part look west asian, however people up in north pakistan like northern pashtuns, kalash, dardic and once you cross the border in to the Wakhan area between pakistan/tajikistan (Pamiries), there are a good numbers of people with European features, not fully european, but with european features. Indians totally lack those features

Just go search Pamiri people, nuristani people, kalash people on the net, a good number of them, even if it 20% have those features, especially the kids. Pashtuns up north living close to these areas tend to exhibit these features in higher numbers, compared to lets say pashtuns living in Kabul or Peshawar

also my original point is that none of these look Indian,  Indians totally have indic features native to south asia found no where else


Edited by balochii - 16-Feb-2013 at 01:00
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  Quote balochii Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 00:57


look at the pamiri girl at 7:00, she can easily fit in eastern europe somewhere, there is clearly some european features in the area, espeically the mountains of tajikistan and north pakistan. In General almost all the people in the area have very fairskin and look nothing like indians, they resemble west asians the most, followed by eastern european




Edited by balochii - 16-Feb-2013 at 01:02
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  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 16-Feb-2013 at 01:40
Originally posted by balochii

who is talking about kashmiries? like I said before kashmiries are a mix of dardics and south asians, they look mixed. also your are posting pics from Uzbekistan/Kazkhasthan, who was ever talking about that? Kashmiries are closer to south/central asia region, not proper central asia. South central asia means = pashtuns, dardics, afghans, kalash etc.. those people

Also again who is saying pashtuns look white? I have said pashtuns for the most part look west asian, however people up in north pakistan like northern pashtuns, kalash, dardic and once you cross the border in to the Wakhan area between pakistan/tajikistan (Pamiries), there are a good numbers of people with European features, not fully european, but with european features. Indians totally lack those features

Just go search Pamiri people, nuristani people, kalash people on the net, a good number of them, even if it 20% have those features, especially the kids. Pashtuns up north living close to these areas tend to exhibit these features in higher numbers, compared to lets say pashtuns living in Kabul or Peshawar

also my original point is that none of these look Indian,  Indians totally have indic features native to south asia found no where else

The thread is about Kashmir and central asia

And Central Asia means Uzbekistan, Khazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan.

Iran, Iraq the levant and Turkey is West Asia.

India and Pakistan including Kashmir is South Asia.

Afghanistan is the border between West Asia, Central Asia and South Asia.


Edited by Venkytalks - 16-Feb-2013 at 01:41
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  Quote Venkytalks Quote  Post ReplyReply Direct Link To This Post Posted: 07-Mar-2013 at 07:59
From another forum - Regarding whether the Mughals were Turkik or Mongol:

Confusing topic this.

Uzbeks have always had Mongol blood probably from pre history in terms of both language, culture and genes. Uzbekistan from prehistory has been inhabited by people who come from the confluence of the European and Mongol races in the steppes and at different times had people of different ethnicity and language – but derived from the admixture of these two gene pools – the percentage probably varies from person to person. 

But in time, you can say that the proportion of Mongol genes kept on increasing. 

Being on a trade route – silk route no less – meant continuous churn in the gene pool.

The Yeuzhei (of 200 BC) – I am using approximate dates throughout - and Tocharians (of 500 AD) both living originally in Xingiang were Indo European speaking, but given their close proximity to the Mongol and Chinese, were probably genetic admixtures – and would have carried their Mongol blood with them when they were displaced. 

Even the original Indo Aryans probably had some Mongol blood in them – and invasions by the Mongol tribes would have definitely played a part in their migration in one way or another, although not recorded in history.

In well recorded times, in around 850 AD, the Turkik speaking people migrated throughout central Asia from the Tarim basin, basically Xingiang and Kyrgizthan region. At that time these people were probably half Indo European and half Mongoloid in their gene pool, being descended from the Tocharians and the Uighur Khaghanate (both a couple of centuries earlier). They probably emigrated after they were defeated (like the Yeuzhei previously) in 850 AD. 

The distinction between Turkik and Mongol is not possible based on genes – because the gene pools were liquid and mixed freely, derived from the same two groups at different times.

And the Turkik speakers from 850 to 950 AD populated Central Asia from Turkey to Afgnanistan, on both sides of the Caspian sea. But the proportion of local people still residing in an area would determine the local gene pool (remembering that the Steppes were always thinly populated while the places they went to had agriculture and heavy populations).

So in Turkey, despite being Turkik speaking, gene pool would be mostly European and Greek and only minimally Mongol. In Khazaksthan it would be mostly European but slightly more Mongol. And yet Turks are mostly dark haired while Khazakhs are mostly blonde. So despite the gene pool being in the same broad category, no comparison makes sense in looks, dress or culture.

In Afghanistan and Azerbaijan it would be mostly European and Irano-Parthian in gene pool but in language and culture, they would be very very different. No comparison again makes sense. 

So pre-Mongol 13th century invasion, Turkik people are already half Mongols. 

Based on language and culture, Turkik is different from Mongol. And the Uzbeks remained Turkik even after the Mongol invasion of the 13th century washed over them. Only the proportion of Mongol DNA in the gene pool increased. The Mongols absorbed the local culture of the core group of Turkik people i.e. Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan – they are basically Turkik people of similar admixture of gene pools. And after Mongol invasions of 13th century were over, the area remained Turkik in nature, gene pool, culture and language.

Coming to Mughals of India, the Kings were of Uzbek origin and largely remained so because mostly married to Afghans or Uzbek women.

But in the populations of the army, the biggest chunk would be of South Asian origin in gene pool and language. There would be many Afghan cavalry commanders and fighters and artillery commanders – maybe 5% would be of Afghan origin.

Afghan (Pushto speakers) are themselves a genetic admixture. Iranic, Turkik and South Asian in one third proportion approximately – with individual variations.

The population of Mughal empire numbering maybe 100 million people (depending on whether you take census before or after a famine !!!) were 99% South Asian. 

Mughals were Uzbeks. Mughal empire was very much Indian.
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